Passenger awareness on TWA 800 (Don't read if you have a fear of flying!!!)

[Strainger]

Over the holiday I watched a TV show (on Discovery, I think) about airplane crashes. I figured it would be a good idea to watch this since I had flown out to Georgia and would be flying back home soon. The show described in detail the behavior of each plane covered as it crashed. By far, the most disturbing crash to me was that of TWA flight 800. After the center fuel tank exploded (I called that one as armchair FAA investigator back when it happened) at 13,000', the front of the fuselage broke of and nosedived into the ocean. The rest of the plane, since it still had wings, continued to climb while simultaneously increasing its angle of attack until it stalled at about 16,000' and "nosedived" (it didn't actually have a nose at this point) into the ocean.

My question: Were the passengers and crew in each portion of the fuselage conscious and aware of what was going on? I imagine that the passengers in the immediate vicinity of the explosion were killed or knocked unconscious by it. However, there seemed to be enough fuselage left on each side (I know, what I watched was a computer simulation, but still), particularly aft of the explosion, where it appears that the passengers could've survived and maintained consciousness throughout the whole ordeal. Or, the concussion could've knocked out everyone, which I hope is the case. As someone who has hiked up to about 14,000', I know the altitude wasn't high enough to cause unconsciousness. But, what would be the effect of having a 500 mph wind blowing in your face? I might have been able to answer this on my own, however, Design for Crashworthiness was offered at the same time as the Fatigue and Fracture class I needed to take. My internet search just turns up a bunch of discussion about missile theories.

[BunnyGirl]

Hey, Jeff!

My thoroughly uneducated, WAG is that the passengers would have been knocked unconscious by the blast. Being that close to a blast that rips a plane in two (or is it three?), with that amount of fuel is almost guaranteed to have caused instant unconciousness. Some were probably killed by the force of the blast also.

My WAG. Feel better?

[Milton De La Warre]

I have to disagree. IMHO, the people towards the back (aft of the wing) were as aware as one can be of what was going on. The qualifier is that there was so much blast noise, wind noise, and other sensory overload, that they probably weren't able to think about what was happening too much, but rather just experienced it as it happened. They probably felt disbelief and then fear, but I doubt there was much real intellectualizing going on. In other words, I don't think they were saying to themselves "The front half has blown off, we're climbing, such-and such is happening" etc.; rather, their thoughts were probably along the lines of "AAAAA? AAAAA!"

[Milton De La Warre]

P.S. Anyone even slightly interested in Airline safety should read Mary Schiavo's book. She's the ex Inspector General of the Transportation Department who quit in disgust because (to sum it up) she feels the FAA and other government regulatory agencies are more interested in aiding the industry in promoting air travel than in making it truly safe for citizens.

[Sofa King]

I'll bet I can tell you the first thing that the English speakers aboard said:

"Oh, sh*t!"

I suppose we've all heard the rumor that the above phrase is the most common last statement on recovered flight recorders. Having been in a good dozen violent automobile accidents, I can attest to the fact that I said it, or at least thought it, every single time.

[Strainger]

Hey, BunnyGirl! Hope you had a great Christmas and New Year! I'll have to email you later so I don't hijack my own thread with personal stuff.

As much as I hate to imagine it, I'm most inclined to agree with JCHeckler (not to dis BunnyGirl, of course!) regarding what the passengers went through. After all, the Challenger astronauts were conscious after the explosion, only losing consciousness after depressurization. Thanks for the book recommendation, JC. It sounds interesting, but I think I'll pass. I'm edgy enough as it is when I fly without reading something like that.

Sofa King, you've been in a dozen violent auto accidents?! Jesus Christ. Remind me to stay the hell away from you on the highway. I agree that there is generally profanity on aircraft voice recorders after a crash, if not "Oh shit!," then some variant thereof. The pilots are human beings, after all. I have a story to go along with that. Back in college, I co-op'ed at the Northwest Airlines DC-9 maintenance facility in Atlanta. Prior to a couple of mergers, that had been the headquarters for Southern Airways. After years and years of being in the same area of the building, we relocated our offices to the other end. During the move, I found a sketch in the drawing room of the path that the Southern Airways DC-9 which crashed in early 1977 had taken during its final moments. The map also included a transcript from the aircraft voice recorder. There was a legend with the transcript indicating that "# = Unintelligible Word" and "* = Impertinent Word." Reading the transcript, it became pretty evident what was meant by "Impertinent Word." The transcript included statements like, "Oh *, the other * engine is out too!" and "Well *, I'm going to have to land it on the highway."

[casdave]

Anyone remember that terrible JAL 747 carsh where a large section of the tailfins went AWOL after a gudgeon pin snapped.

It stayed in the air for quite some time but the pilots had virtually no control over direction, any attempt to turn it was met with even less stability and it flew into the side of a remote Japanese mountainside.

Several passengers had the time to compose last letters to their loved ones.

[Opengrave]

Post your question on the forum at http://www.airdisaster.com. It is sort of the Straight Dope of things airline related. Please note, they have a lot of airline employees who can get really upset at these types of questions but if you are tactful, you shouldn't catch any static.

[Northern Piper]

Having been in a good dozen violent automobile accidents, I can attest to the fact that I said it, or at least thought it, every single time.

SofaKing, what do you say when you open the annual notice of premium from your car insurance company?

[Sofa King]

Woah! Thanks for calling me out on that, folks. That was supposed to read "a good half-dozen." They were pretty good ones, though.

Three of those accidents were with me driving and totalling my own car, plus one other unfortunate driver's car. In the other three, I was a passenger. Two more cars were write-offs in those. Five of those accidents were two-car collisions, one of them head on and another a T-bone, the others severe rear-enders or glancing blows. One was all me (that one was the most spectacular, IMO). I've rolled twice, but one doesn't count as "violent" because we just pushed the car back over and drove away with almost no damage.

That of course doesn't count at least another dozen fender-benders, fence assassinations, creek dives, spin-outs and near-misses. People sometimes laugh when I say I've led a charmed life, but get this: out of all those accidents, nobody was seriously injured. Not a drop of blood, not even a cracked rib.

I quit driving long ago, but recently had to get my licence back in order to use rental cars on business trips. My company picks up the insurance, and has yet to complain. And the rental companies give me cars!

I drive very carefully now. Frankly, I don't like it.

[/hijack]

[Northern Piper]

Well, I'm very glad to hear you've never been hurt in all that.

[Note to self: never go on business trips with Sofa King.]

[BunnyGirl]

Hmm, Strain, good point re: Challenger. Must be my Optomistic Spirit taking over. However, since I'm flying down to New Orleans in April, I'll continue to Think Happy Thoughts About an Airplane.

Anyone know the general amount of pressure or force required to render a person unconscious? There's got to be some kind of figure and I have no idea how to search on something like that.

I wonder though how much of that time before death isn't actually spent in utter confusion, trying to figure out what the heck is going on. I mean, yeah, a loud noise and fire while you're flying is a bad thing but I wonder how long it takes for a person to actually work through a chaotic thought process to the point where they realize, "uh oh- I'm a gonner."

[Northern Piper]

Here's what Cecil had to say about the Challenger: Did the astronauts survive the Challenger explosion long enough to realize their plight?

[Lissa]

I've read that it was possible that the Challenger astronauts could have been concious until the cabin's final impact with the water, which is a pretty horrifying thought.

I was actually supposed to be on TWA Flight 800, but fortunately I changed my mind and took an earlier flight. Since that incident, air travel has absolutely terrifed me, and I usually spend the entire flight weeping quietly, and jumping at every bump and jolt of turbulence. I even leave a final note to my friends and loved ones on the kitchen counter before I leave.

I wouldn't mind, I guess, if the plane just exploded in mid-air killing me instantly . . . it's just the idea of having a few minutes to THINK about my imminent demise that's so horrifying.

[ZenBeam]

Sofa King, you be sure and let us know where and when you go on these busines trips, OK? Maybe get the administrators to post it as an announcement.

[manhattan]

From the Medical/Forensic Group Chairman's Factual Report of the investigation at the NTSB:

The trauma severity index used in this investigation was as follows:

Severe: instantaneously fatal injuries.
Moderate: questionable whether injuries were instantaneously fatal.
Minimal: fatal injuries present, but not considered instantaneously fatal.

Sufficient remains were recovered from 202 victims to determine the trauma
severity index. The trauma severity index is displayed simultaneously with floating
victims to determine correlation between trauma severity and bodies recovered from the
surface of the ocean.

One-hundred-eighty-three individuals received a trauma severity score of severe;
15 were scored as moderate and 4 as minimal.

[Strainger]

Thanks, manhattan. I consider that a relief, in a sad way.

[Una Persson]

Originally posted by Lissa
I was actually supposed to be on TWA Flight 800, but fortunately I changed my mind and took an earlier flight. Since that incident, air travel has absolutely terrifed me, and I usually spend the entire flight weeping quietly, and jumping at every bump and jolt of turbulence.

I hope you are not pulling our collective legs, because this is one of the scariest things I have ever read here. For some reason, this makes me feel just like you say you do. Good Goddess! How could you ever go on a plane, knowing you were that close?

(still shaking)

[Northern Piper]

I had a similar experience as Lissa's. I flew Pan Am from Frankfurt to New York, the same flight number as the Lockerbie Pan Am, but the day after.

I actually hadn't heard about the disaster, since I had been in India, and when I made the connexion in Frankfurt I just realised that there was a lot of congestion, but didn't know why.

It wasn't until we were on the tarmac that the passenger next to me mentioned it. I opened my complimentary [i]Int'l Hearld-Trib,[/b] and there it was on the front page. Just then, we started rolling down the runway.

It was an unsettling flight; I told myself that it couldn't happen again the very next day, because security would be so tight, and tried to sleep my way across the Atlantic, without much success.

JFK was a welcome sight, even though the delays had caused me to miss my connexion home - spent the night in Flushings, with a few other stranded travellers, courtesy Pan Am.

I try to avoid thinking about that whenever I'm on a plane - sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

[samclem]

manny , thanks for the link. But my reading of the forensics report is that, while the injuries sustained were "instantaneoulsy fatal", the injuries could have been produced by the plane's impact with the water.

Or am I missing something?

[Lissa]

I hope you are not pulling our collective legs, because this is one of the scariest things I have ever read here. For some reason, this makes me feel just like you say you do. Good Goddess! How could you ever go on a plane, knowing you were that close?

Wish to God I were pulling your leg, because it really scared the living bejeezus out of me.

When I turned 18, I decided to fulfil a dream I had of going to Paris. We had a foreign exchange student at my school who had used a certain agency in the exchange program, and they also arragned short-term summer trips for school kids to other countries. I called them up, and they told me about two seperate trips to France that were a couple of weeks apart: TWA Flight 800 and TWA Flight 801. I wanted to leave on 801 because it was the earlier flight.

I saved up a lot of money for the trip, but as the deadline neared for 801, I found myself short, so I called them, and said I would take TWA Flight 800 which would give me more time to save up the extra money I needed. I bitched and moaned for a couple of days about not being able to go earlier, and so a relative of mine offered to lend me the money so I could leave on schedule. I thought about it for a while, and wasn't going to accept the offer because I didn't feel right about borrowing the money. I turned down the offer, but the relative insisted I go and have a good time, and after a couple of days, I figured "What the hell," and finally agreed to borrow the money. I called the travel company back, and changed my booking to TWA Flight 801.

Had a lovely time on the trip, but a day or so after I got back, I went back to my job at a convenience store. It was early in the morning, and the newspapers had just arrived, and on the cover, in big bold letters was a legend announcing the crash of TWA Flight 800. I had to sit down. I was shaking so hard that I dropped the papers. My boss came in to find me crying, sick and shaky. She sent me home for the day. I could barely drive. I just kept thinking, "My God, that could have been me. That could have been me. Oh, Jesus, that could have been me!" I even felt guilty because of the fact that I hadn't been on the flight . . . somone else might have taken the seat I decided not to use and been killed.

To this day, I pray for the families, and cry every time I see footage of the memorials. That could be my mother throwing those flowers into the grey ocean surf.

I thank God and my guardian angel every day, because at this point I'm alive merely by chance and circumstance. It made me realize how precious my life is to me, and how quickly it can be gone. I honestly treasure every day, every minute now, because it's a gift of fate. Something like this gives you a new appreciation for even a day that seems awful, because it's a day that you're still here to kiss your mom, to pet your dog, and to realize just how lucky you are.

[flyboy]

I also have to agree with JCHeckler. I would actually be surprised if the force of the explosion put all that many people out of comission, and as far as the force of the wind, i'm sure those people sitting up front weren't conscious, but a few rows back, i can't see how they could have been out. After all, military pilots ejecting from high speed jets hit that 500 mph wall of wind and survive, although almost invariably they don't remember a thing from the initial blast of the seat rocket to swinging in the straps of the parachute. So, i figure the altitude, the blast, and wind really didn't take that many people out. Pretty ugly. All i know is that i'd much rather be up front fighting for control in my last moments than be in the back with nothing to do. I've been in a couple of close calls, but i'm always comforted knowing how safe planes are today and how slim the odds are that anything fatal will happen. Lissa, i hope you're buying lottery tickets!

[Lissa]

Lissa, i hope you're buying lottery tickets!

Nah, I'm saving my luck in case I really need it again.

[RickJay]

Originally posted by casdave
Anyone remember that terrible JAL 747 carsh where a large section of the tailfins went AWOL after a gudgeon pin snapped.

It stayed in the air for quite some time but the pilots had virtually no control over direction, any attempt to turn it was met with even less stability and it flew into the side of a remote Japanese mountainside.

Several passengers had the time to compose last letters to their loved ones.

There were actually survivors in that crash. It would be interesting to get an eyewitness account of the plane's final moments, if it wasn't for the fact that it'd be too hard for me to take.

[Lissa]

Academicly I know that I'm safer in a plane that I am, statisticly, driving a car, but it still seems to me that we have too many plane crashes.

It's especially heart-breaking when a crash is caused by shoddy maintenance, worn out parts and the like. I don't know what we're doing wrong, but since air travel has become such a large industry, it would seem that somehow we could make it safer.

My mother has always said, a bit toungue-in-cheek, that the safest time to fly would probably be after a major disaster, because all of the maintenance people are on their toes. After a while, do they start slacking off just a bit? Is that why we hear of faulty tailfins, and bolts cracking? How often are planes gone over in minute detail to ensure that every part is in perfect shape?

After the last major crash, I heard a news reporter comment that we have an "aging air fleet." Why are the airlines so pressed for cash that they must use old, decrepit planes? While a plane probably costs ten million or so, aren't the airlines making enough profits to phase out elderly planes, or at least replace aging parts and "refit" the plane with safer, better wiring, engines and bolts?

When I last flew abroad, my ticket cost almost a thousand dollars. The plane was almost full, with only a few empty seats. Even with the cost of the fuel, salaries for the flight crew, and other expenses, it seems to me that if every passenger paid almost as much as I did that the flight would have been very lucrative to the airline. Where do the profits go?

[flyboy]

Ouch! "Shoddy maintenance, decrepit planes, worn parts..."
Certainly, the most heart-breaking part is the human aspect, with all our mistakes and oversights, but I have to throw my 2 cents in.
Sure, we have an "aging" fleet, but there are a few things you have to consider. First, airlines don't really make that much of a profit. Lots of revenues, sure, but not as much profit as I think the average american thinks (I majored in Aviation at Ohio State in '94, so i'm dredging this up from very dim alcohol-tainted memories, and it may be a little dated). So, not as much $$ to spend on a bunch of new planes, which is a good segue to my second point:

Why does everyone think new=safer? On the surface, you may think, more tech. advanced, better constructed, less wear and tear, etc., but every airframe has a service life, sort of a manufacturer's guarantee. For the sake of argument let's say the plane's life is 30 years. At age 29, people may balk if they're told they're about to fly on something that old (especially if one that old has recently been involved in a mishap or crash), but I contend that if the plane has been maintained properly, what you have is a reliable, seasoned plane in which the maintainers have worked out all the little kinks and gremlins. New planes can have many things wrong with them that the maintainers haven't gotten around to noticing (this has been my experience, anyway).

Finally, by far most crashes are directly attributable to human error, be it pilot or maintainer, which could happen in an old or brand new plane. The JAL 747's tail snapped off not because it was old or defective, but because a maintainer riveted a single row of rivets instead of a double row of rivets on the aft bulkhead like he should have. Woops. Anyway, that's my obviously-biased view.

[Lissa]

Sorry! I didn't mean to insult the airline industry.

The JAL 747's tail snapped off not because it was old or defective, but because a maintainer riveted a single row of rivets instead of a double row of rivets on the aft bulkhead like he should have.

Why didn't anyone notice? Isn't there any form of "double checking?" If maintenance is done, is it re-checked by another person, or is it left up to one person to see that it's done correctly? What happens to the guy who forgot to double-rivet? Is he fired? Sued?

[Una Persson]

Originally posted by Lissa

Why didn't anyone notice? Isn't there any form of "double checking?" If maintenance is done, is it re-checked by another person, or is it left up to one person to see that it's done correctly? What happens to the guy who forgot to double-rivet? Is he fired? Sued?

It sounds grim and flippant given the situation, but, people make mistakes. Things happen.

Most likely, due to Union Rules, the guy who does it is not fired. And it would be very hard to sue him; even if it was possible what would one get? You can bet Boeing was sued, however.

[flyboy]

Just to answer your questions, Lissa, the guy simply made a mistake. Should his work have been double checked? Yes. Was it? I don't know, but subsequent inspections didn't reveal the mistake because the bulkhead where the work was done was inaccessible (this may raise more questions as to their procedures, but hey, I'm just the messenger here!). The guy was never disciplined, to my knowledge, because 1)the accident happened 7 years after the mistake (metal fatigue doesn't happen right away), 2)not sure if he was still working w/ the airline, 3)even if so, what're you gonna do to him? These are the Japanese. His shame must have been (and still is, probably) horrific. 4)Is he really the only guy to blame? The mistake should have been caught somewhere in those 7 years.

And actually, as far as being sued, there were mostly Japanese citizens on board, resulting in very few law suits. Apparently they don't like a lot of suing over there. Unlike here. Yet another black hole where some of the airline profits wind up.

[CnoteChris]

The guy was never disciplined, to my knowledge

Nope, he was never disciplined. He killed himself before they could get around to it.

Back to the O.P.-

Count me in as a member of the group that thinks that some, if not the majority, of people towards the back of the plane survivied the initial explosion and died on impact with the water.

The way I look at it, if the astronauts were able to survive the explosion of the challenger, then the passengers of TWA 800 could have survived the explosion of their fuel tank too.

The fact that some may have survived (My opinion only, until I can find some info) is probably kept quiet for the same reason that the astronauts fate was kept quiet- it doesn't look too good.

[Hail Ants]

Given the facts there is no doubt in my mind that the majority of the TWA 800 passengers were alive and consious well after the initial explosion. The plane continued upward (without the nose) then began it's descent toward the sea. When it reached a certain speed the rest of the plane broke up and more passengers may have been killed or gone unconsious then, but it's pretty much certain that lots of them were alive and awake right up until hitting the water. Watch the first ten minutes of the film Alive to get a feel for what that would be like. Yuck.

[jjarbs]

Its most likely that no one knew what hit them. The force of the explosion decelerated the plain by several hundred miles per hour. Also it blew flight 800 off course up to a mile. This caused ultimate whip lash which means the skull was separated from the spine by the violent forward motion and whip back . The passengers faces were smashed, there legs were broke, it was violent up there. And the few people that did not have broken necks were surely knocked deeply unconscious.

[saje]

11 yr old thread, btw.

[chela]

I am already feeling a little anxious about an upcoming trip overseas. But the excitement about crossing the Atlantic (would I rather sail, row or fly across?) and landing in Paris will win out. Though I did have to change the return date, leaving earlier...and from Madrid instead, on a Friday in the 13th year.

[samclem]

I doubt that the reopening of this thread adds much to the debate. Closed.

samclem moderator