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  #1  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:24 PM
ShibbOleth ShibbOleth is offline
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How much effort to remove a rapist's testicles?

Last night at Stammtisch, we somehow got into a discussion that one of the members had seen an "expert" on Oprah talking about how to prevent rape. If I'm quoting correctly (and this is third hand now) he said if you grab a perv by the balls, pull down and twist, "it only takes 8 lbs of pressure" to pull the boys off. There was also discussion on whether it was even easier to remove an ear (6 lbs).

1) Is this even vaguely correct?
2) How would you test something like this on, say, Mythbusters? Cadavers?
3) If this is correct, then what's the relation to other more mundane tasks, such as removing a lid from a pickle jar?
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  #2  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:28 PM
Snite Snite is offline
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2) If you want live test subjects you could get those Hindu dudes who castrate themselves in devotion to... Shiva(?) before they actually go through with it. Of course, you'd have to be a sadist.
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  #3  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:34 PM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Maybe the twisting makes a difference, I don't know. I'm pretty sure there are accounts of people lifting weights considerably heavier than 8 pounds attached to their scrotum.

However, I imagine that applying 8 pounds of twisty pull on a rapist's balls might at least spoil his mood.

Last edited by Mangetout; 11-24-2009 at 08:35 PM..
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  #4  
Old 11-24-2009, 09:01 PM
toodlepip toodlepip is offline
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I've never tried to rip human skin, and my castration experience is limited to animals, but the women in these two cases didn't seem to have too much trouble.

Surgical castration techniques vary depending on species, age/maturity etc, but it doesn't involve pulling off the scrotum itself. I have no idea how much force would be required for that, or whether twisting would help tear the skin. If the blood vessels aren't ligated, pulling the testicles till the vessels stretch and eventually break will limit bleeding.
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  #5  
Old 11-24-2009, 09:57 PM
SeaDragonTattoo SeaDragonTattoo is online now
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I'm sure the actual advise was in regards to incapacitating a man, not actually pulling the testicles off - crazy dudes have pulled cars with their junk, I don't think any woman's going to just twist them off!

Here's the technique.
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  #6  
Old 11-24-2009, 10:26 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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While you're at it, try to poke his eyes out at the same time, with your other hand. Men will instinctively attempt to protect their testicles at all costs, which means that an attack to the testicles will likely be foiled... But which also means that he'll be distracted against other attacks, which will therefore be more likely to succeed.
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  #7  
Old 11-24-2009, 10:34 PM
KneadToKnow KneadToKnow is offline
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I'm just glad this wasn't a "need answer fast!" thread.
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  #8  
Old 11-24-2009, 10:35 PM
Ludovic Ludovic is offline
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I can tell you it's not true for the ear. I've been pulling and twisting on my own ear for a couple minutes now, gradually increasing until I was giving it my entire non-forced effort. It isn't even starting to hurt, and if it wasn't six pounds I must be a really weak man to not be able to pull six pounds without straining. *

* Don't try this at home.
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  #9  
Old 11-24-2009, 10:38 PM
thirdname thirdname is offline
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If a woman rips off a man's testicles, isn't he likely to kill her if she doesn't get away quickly? It seems risky to me.
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  #10  
Old 11-25-2009, 12:19 AM
Magiver Magiver is offline
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Originally Posted by thirdname View Post
If a woman rips off a man's testicles, isn't he likely to kill her if she doesn't get away quickly? It seems risky to me.
If it were possible he would be in so much pain as to not even be aware she is standing next to him.

I would advise kicking or punching the general area rather than trying to grab anything. This is to increase the likelyhood of success. Once you've tagged him in the nuts you have a better chance of repeating the process.
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  #11  
Old 11-25-2009, 08:59 AM
Tom Tildrum Tom Tildrum is offline
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When chimpanzees attack, they always go for the genitals, but they're stronger than humans.
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  #12  
Old 11-25-2009, 09:27 AM
shijinn shijinn is offline
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i believe that is the ancient martial arts move - panzee plucks peaches, a good counter to the coloured wolf double clawed frontal attack.
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  #13  
Old 11-25-2009, 09:50 AM
HeyHomie HeyHomie is offline
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FWIW, when Mammahomie was about 16 GrandmaHomie sent her to a women's self-defense class. She was taught (among other things) to puke on her assailant. To this day Mammahomie can puke on cue.
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  #14  
Old 11-25-2009, 10:27 AM
ShibbOleth ShibbOleth is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum View Post
When chimpanzees attack, they always go for the genitals, but they're stronger than humans.
The chimps or the genitals?
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  #15  
Old 11-25-2009, 11:22 AM
butler1850 butler1850 is offline
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Originally Posted by thirdname View Post
If a woman rips off a man's testicles, isn't he likely to kill her if she doesn't get away quickly? It seems risky to me.
I have no intention of getting into a situation where a woman is pulling my testicles off, but if, on the odd chance that it ever happened...

It would become my life's work to find, and kill, such a person. I have no balls at that point, so it's not like I have anything else pressing to do. Or, having no balls, I'd just procrastinate about it....

As to the OP, I doubt 8# of force will remove them, but it would certainly do a number for his ability to press an attack for a significant portion of time.
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  #16  
Old 11-25-2009, 11:36 AM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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I've heard several of these "so and so lbs of pressure" claims in a martial arts setting. I find them questionable.

The first thing that jumps out is the units. Pounds is a force unit, pressure is measured in pounds per square inch (for example), i.e. psi. Pressure is a distributed load, force is a total load.

So when they say 8 lbs of pressure, do they mean 8 lbs, or 8 psi? What force load is required to get 8 psi in the tissue around the testicles?

Another factor is the difference between a slow pull and a quick yank. A quick yank will impart a larger impulse load than a slow pull with the same force, which translates into more damage.

I'm fairly certain you can yank an ear off, though I have not tried it. I am less certain you can actually remove the nutsack, but you can certainly make the guy feel like you did so. (Just checked toodlepip's links, so it is apparently possible.)

thirdname
Quote:
If a woman rips off a man's testicles, isn't he likely to kill her if she doesn't get away quickly? It seems risky to me.
That kind of pain is incapacitating. He won't be able to do much more than clutch his crotch, maybe limp away. Get out of range, he can't chase you well.

Magiver said:
Quote:
I would advise kicking or punching the general area rather than trying to grab anything. This is to increase the likelyhood of success. Once you've tagged him in the nuts you have a better chance of repeating the process.
Striking can be just as effective and easier. Trying to grasp through jeans might be a challenge, for instance. But Chronos is right, men will instinctively protect their crotch if they sense you going for it. A simultaneous or followup to the eyes and/or throat is a good combo.

Just for grins (experimentation), I tried grabbing myself through my jeans. I can't actually get ahold of anything solid, the jeans are too resistive. However, in the process, I can tweak my nuts enough to hurt. Not incapacitating pain, but enough to flinch. A flinch is a window of distraction. They focus on their nuts, hit them in the eyes. They block their face, knee the groin. They're blocking both of those, kick them in the knee. Then get away.
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  #17  
Old 11-25-2009, 12:01 PM
Kobal2 Kobal2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
Just for grins (experimentation), I tried grabbing myself through my jeans. I can't actually get ahold of anything solid, the jeans are too resistive. However, in the process, I can tweak my nuts enough to hurt. Not incapacitating pain, but enough to flinch. A flinch is a window of distraction. They focus on their nuts, hit them in the eyes. They block their face, knee the groin. They're blocking both of those, kick them in the knee. Then get away.
Nuts are a small target, really. Throwing random, panicked kicks or knees at a guy's groin will more than likely hit the inner thigh or pelvis rather than the jewels themselves. Besides, it's quite easy to block the only angle that works on them (i.e. vertical upwards), you only have to close your legs. And guys do that quite, quite instinctively

Your last suggestion is the one I'd go for, were I trying to defend myself for realz. It's an easy, incapacitating target, and one that's hard to protect. Go for the knee. A good, solid kick to the side of the knee hurts like a motherfuck and might just break or twist the joint. Even if it doesn't, the guy's going to limp for a good long while. Kicking upwards just under the floating bone (patella ?) from the front works too.

Last edited by Kobal2; 11-25-2009 at 12:02 PM..
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  #18  
Old 11-25-2009, 12:56 PM
PoorYorick PoorYorick is offline
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Originally Posted by toodlepip View Post
I've never tried to rip human skin, and my castration experience is limited to animals, but the women in these two cases didn't seem to have too much trouble.
From the first of the articles cited above was a phrase you don't hear too often: "Mr Hutchinson's testicle was later found by police under a picture frame."

Man, this thread is going to have me walking bow-legged the rest of the day.

Last edited by PoorYorick; 11-25-2009 at 12:57 PM..
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  #19  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:41 PM
SCSimmons SCSimmons is offline
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Originally Posted by ShibbOleth View Post
2) How would you test something like this on, say, Mythbusters?
I don't know what Adam and Jamie would come up with for this, but I can guarantee they'd get their best ... ratings ... EVER!
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  #20  
Old 11-25-2009, 03:15 PM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is offline
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2) How would you test something like this on, say, Mythbusters? Cadavers?

1.) Another use for slaughtered pigs!

2.) "Buster" the Test Dummy gets a new Body Part! Engineered by Adam!

3.) Or they can have a competition -- Can Adam or Jamie build the more lifelike scrotum?

4.) Or, better still, Keri!
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  #21  
Old 11-25-2009, 03:26 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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If Keri has a scrotum, I'd rather not know.
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  #22  
Old 11-25-2009, 03:58 PM
KneadToKnow KneadToKnow is offline
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Forgive me if this has been asked, but ... is there a significant difference between the amount of effort it would take to remove a rapist's testicles and the amount it would take to remove just any guy's testicles?
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  #23  
Old 11-25-2009, 05:15 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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If the rapist has removed his trousers, that would improve access, and thus make it easier. But there's nothing about being a rapist that makes your scrotum more or less detachable.

I assume you're picking on the thread title. I think the rationale was that the situation was more justifiable as a defense for rape rather than just a random interaction with a stranger. "Hi," *yank*". YMMV.

Kobal2 said:
Quote:
Nuts are a small target, really. Throwing random, panicked kicks or knees at a guy's groin will more than likely hit the inner thigh or pelvis rather than the jewels themselves. Besides, it's quite easy to block the only angle that works on them (i.e. vertical upwards), you only have to close your legs. And guys do that quite, quite instinctively
While men do quickly react to block the nuts, I'm sure a review of the literature (i.e. America's Funniest Home Videos) will demonstrate that the nuts are a vulnerable target and men aren't always good at blocking. However, if they block the first one, you're not likely to get a second or third strike to succeed.

Quote:
Your last suggestion is the one I'd go for, were I trying to defend myself for realz. It's an easy, incapacitating target, and one that's hard to protect.
I'm not going to limit myself to one target. Yeah, the knee is a great target and can be an incapacitating shot, but if they have their knee bent into the kick or leg not braced, it can be ineffective. I'm going for a series of strikes to multiple targets on the theory that they can't block everything at once and they can't anticipate every move, so eventually something will get through. And I'm going to follow the first successful strike with 3 or 4 more to ensure the attacker has been properly persuaded/incapacitated to allow me to withdraw. Eyes, throat, groin, knee - and not necessarily in that order.
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  #24  
Old 11-25-2009, 06:19 PM
ShibbOleth ShibbOleth is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
I've heard several of these "so and so lbs of pressure" claims in a martial arts setting. I find them questionable.

The first thing that jumps out is the units. Pounds is a force unit, pressure is measured in pounds per square inch (for example), i.e. psi. Pressure is a distributed load, force is a total load.

So when they say 8 lbs of pressure, do they mean 8 lbs, or 8 psi? What force load is required to get 8 psi in the tissue around the testicles?
This was something I struggled with when writing the OP. What IS the correct unit of measure for the force needed to rend away someone's ballsack or ear?
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2009, 05:20 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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One can talk about tensile strength of components, and the appropriate units are pressure units (actually, stress units, but they are the same).

One can also talk about average loads to accomplish the task on most humans, and talk about force units.

Either can be an acceptable way to quantify the information, but one needs to be clear which set of units one is discussing and why.

From the values I have heard, I doubt their veracity and wonder how they were measured.

7 to 9 lbs of pressure to break a rib, 9 to 12 lbs to break a knee, etc. I have had children sit on my chest weighing more than 10 lbs, so static loading to 10 lbs of force didn't break my ribs, but how does that translate to what they think they are communicating?
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2009, 07:10 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Well, that is distributed over multiple ribs, where presumably the figures you're referring to are assuming the force is applied entirely to a single rib. Still, it seems like a 150-pound person's weight would be distributed over less than 15 ribs, and that doesn't break them, either.
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2009, 07:40 PM
Add99 Add99 is offline
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I never pursued martial arts very far, but I like the style of this move:

A descending three punch move, bending the knees as you go down.
A punch to the face.
A punch to the gut.
A punch to the nads.
Now your opponent is bent forwards. Grab the back of his head with both hands and repeatedly knee him in the face until he falls over.
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  #28  
Old 12-18-2014, 03:56 AM
freddiek freddiek is offline
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Originally Posted by ShibbOleth View Post
This was something I struggled with when writing the OP. What IS the correct unit of measure for the force needed to rend away someone's ballsack or ear?
Tensile strength is measured in pascals (Pa) and "the mean ultimate tensile strength (UTS) [of human skin] was 27.2Ī9.3MPa," (http://www.ircobi.org/downloads/irc12/pdf_files/59.pdf)
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  #29  
Old 12-18-2014, 07:14 AM
bob++ bob++ is online now
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All of this assumes that the victim is capable of retaliating. My understanding is that rapists do not generally stand in front of their victims and say "I am going to rape you." Of course that might happen, but it is not the normal approach. There are many kinds of rape, but I guess that we are mostly discussing the stranger-in-the-park kind, rather than non-consensual sex while drunk etc.

The stranger will, first off, tend to pick a victim that he can dominate. He will approach from behind and try to take control and to not allow any kind of retaliation. The victim might get a chance to bite, drop to the ground (Isn't this a recommended course of action?) or scream, but grabbing nuts or any other body part, or kicking effectively seems difficult or impossible. Of course, if the rapist is armed with a knife, that would make it even more risky.
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  #30  
Old 12-18-2014, 09:34 AM
Anaamika Anaamika is offline
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When I took my self defense course it was reiterated to me over and over again - and this is borne out by experience - that going for the balls is a futile endeavor. Men have been hit in the balls by accident since they were children and the protective gestures they make are instinctive. The knee comes up to protect the jewels before their conscious mind even realizes it.

No, the best thing to do, I was told, was stomp on the instep or go for the knee. Or the eyes, yes.
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  #31  
Old 12-18-2014, 10:46 AM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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Someone could argue that removing someone's testicles exceeds self-defense. Like someone who amputates a robber's arm or leg. I wonder about the legal ramifications.
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  #32  
Old 12-18-2014, 10:50 AM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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How much effort to remove a rapist's testicles?
All depends on how fast that som'bitch can run.


Last edited by aceplace57; 12-18-2014 at 10:52 AM..
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  #33  
Old 12-18-2014, 10:56 AM
Dogzilla Dogzilla is offline
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
If it were possible he would be in so much pain as to not even be aware she is standing next to him.

I would advise kicking or punching the general area rather than trying to grab anything. This is to increase the likelyhood of success. Once you've tagged him in the nuts you have a better chance of repeating the process.
Personally, I think going for the balls is the dumbest move ever. All guys instinctively protect their balls. They know it might be the first thing a woman goes for. So any creepster (who deserves to have his balls ripped off) is going to be looking for a woman/his victim to make her move toward his balls. At which point, he will avoid and/or deflect and now he's pissed off and she's in real trouble. Besides balls are tricky to get to. Any time I've ever even play-fought, I was never allowed to get anywhere near the balls (not that I would have tried). It's just such an obvious move, I think any potential assault/rape victim would be better served going for the eyes, solar plexus, instep, or a nice hearty throat punch.
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  #34  
Old 12-18-2014, 11:11 AM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
It's an easy, incapacitating target, and one that's hard to protect. Go for the knee. A good, solid kick to the side of the knee hurts like a motherfuck and might just break or twist the joint. Even if it doesn't, the guy's going to limp for a good long while. Kicking upwards just under the floating bone (patella ?) from the front works too.
And the guy's likely to instinctively protect his nuts rather than his knee, so you'd have a clear shot at clobbering his knee before he realized his mistake.
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  #35  
Old 12-18-2014, 11:49 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
I think any potential assault/rape victim would be better served going for the eyes, solar plexus, instep, or a nice hearty throat punch.
IME people defend their eyes just as instinctively as they do their nuts. But that just means you have to set it up.

Groin grabs in the context I think we are discussing work pretty well in ground work, mostly because
  1. Even people experienced in ground fighting don't expect it
  2. It is easier to hide your approach with one arm and sneak the other under and attack the groin
  3. the groin is one of the few targets that doesn't need a lot of hip torque to generate enough force to hurt the guy.
One size never fits all, and there is obviously a lot more to self defense than "hit him in the nuts", but FWIW.

Regards,
Shodan
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  #36  
Old 12-18-2014, 11:58 AM
Darth Panda Darth Panda is offline
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I'd assume a zombie's nuts are pretty easy to rip off, based on Hollywood depictions of zombies in general.
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  #37  
Old 12-18-2014, 12:00 PM
Dogzilla Dogzilla is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
IME people defend their eyes just as instinctively as they do their nuts. But that just means you have to set it up.

Groin grabs in the context I think we are discussing work pretty well in ground work, mostly because
  1. Even people experienced in ground fighting don't expect it
  2. It is easier to hide your approach with one arm and sneak the other under and attack the groin
  3. the groin is one of the few targets that doesn't need a lot of hip torque to generate enough force to hurt the guy.
One size never fits all, and there is obviously a lot more to self defense than "hit him in the nuts", but FWIW.

Regards,
Shodan
Agreed.

I was dating a Kung Fu sifu for a while, and one day, we got into a play fight -- not physical. As he was getting into my car, he caught me eyeballing his nuts and he asked me, "Were you about to go for my balls?" And I said, "No, but I just made the observation that you left 'em open, but I didn't really think I could reach through the car and give 'em a tap before I'd telegraph that move and you'd shut me down. So it was more like a passing thought, 'Oh he left his balls open' immediately followed by 'but I couldn't reach 'em anyway.'" He laughed and got in the car. I am not one to joke around about popping guys in the nuts; I think it's playing dirty.

But in a real-life self-defense situation, I say go for whatever you can. That includes a feint toward the nuts to get the guy to bend down a little bit, so I can step in and deliver an unexpected throat punch.

In theory. I have never actually had to deliver this throat punch, but this is my planned move. Which I'm sure will go all pear-shaped on me IRL, should this nightmare ever come to fruition.
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  #38  
Old 12-18-2014, 12:15 PM
Dogzilla Dogzilla is offline
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Originally Posted by Darth Panda View Post
I'd assume a zombie's nuts are pretty easy to rip off, based on Hollywood depictions of zombies in general.
Thank you so much, Zombie Police, for pointing out that this was once a dead thread and is now live again. So kind of you to protect and serve. Keep on keeping on, man.
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  #39  
Old 12-18-2014, 02:27 PM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is offline
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The issue isn't tearing the scrotum off, but rather severing the testicles from the spermatic cords. Would that take more than 8 lb of force?
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  #40  
Old 12-18-2014, 03:20 PM
Iggy Iggy is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Someone could argue that removing someone's testicles exceeds self-defense. Like someone who amputates a robber's arm or leg. I wonder about the legal ramifications.
She grabbed. He pushed her away. She did not let go. She won.

Quote:
Although the man suffered serious injury when his scrotum was torn from his testicles, following emergency surgery he made a full recovery.
...
She grabbed his genitals during the scuffle between them, but as her husband pulled away she held on and the manís testicles were torn and ruptured, causing a considerably more serious injury than had been intended, the court heard.
Not a rapist situation but rather a domestic assault. She was found guilty but got no jail time.
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  #41  
Old 12-18-2014, 04:13 PM
mmmiiikkkeee mmmiiikkkeee is offline
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The answer depends on what's actually being asked: how murch force to accomplish it, or how much effort to accomplish it?

The amount (and type) of force would be easier to calculate, but would still be an approximation based on other similar species we could test it on.

The amount of effort to pull this off (haha) would be a lot harder to estimate and would vary considerably based on the attacker, the victim, and the circumstances. It would undoubtedly require much more effort to do this to an aggressive person who will resist the action while being under attack and great duress than simply the sum of the physical foot-pounds required to cause the trauma. Think about the amount of force needed to squeeze the clippers and cut your dogs nails vs the effort to hold him down and get it done when he's scared of the clippers and yanking his paws away.
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  #42  
Old 12-18-2014, 04:14 PM
Darth Panda Darth Panda is offline
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Thank you so much, Zombie Police, for pointing out that this was once a dead thread and is now live again. So kind of you to protect and serve. Keep on keeping on, man.
You're welcome; next time I charge though.
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  #43  
Old 12-18-2014, 04:35 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Quoth bob++:

All of this assumes that the victim is capable of retaliating. My understanding is that rapists do not generally stand in front of their victims and say "I am going to rape you." Of course that might happen, but it is not the normal approach. There are many kinds of rape, but I guess that we are mostly discussing the stranger-in-the-park kind, rather than non-consensual sex while drunk etc.

The stranger will, first off, tend to pick a victim that he can dominate. He will approach from behind and try to take control and to not allow any kind of retaliation. The victim might get a chance to bite, drop to the ground (Isn't this a recommended course of action?) or scream, but grabbing nuts or any other body part, or kicking effectively seems difficult or impossible. Of course, if the rapist is armed with a knife, that would make it even more risky.
And part of self-defense training, probably the biggest part, is turning the would-be victim into someone who is capable of retaliating. In this sense, the advice of "Go for the balls" might even be productive, since it carries the message "If someone's trying to rape you, it is fully acceptable to retaliate to the fullest extent possible, up to and including the action that the rapist will find most horrific". It can only be slightly improved by amending it to "Go for the balls, and everything else you can reach at the same time".

Quote:
Quoth Shodan:

IME people defend their eyes just as instinctively as they do their nuts. But that just means you have to set it up.
Probably, or nearly so. But the reason they defend both so instinctively is that a successful attack on either is probably going to be incapacitating. And it's hard, even instinctively, to defend both at once, so if you attack both at once, there's a better chance at one of them going through, and you don't much care which one.
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:59 PM
longhair75 longhair75 is offline
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My wife says that nothing will quell the violent impulses of a rapist quite like a sucking chest wound....
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