Communism Vs. Socialism and others

I’ve been wondering the past couple of days about the difference between communism, socialism, and fascism. I think I was supposed to learn this in 9th grade, but I’ve since forgotten. I’ve looked the words up, but the definitions seems to indicate communism and socialism are the same (or at least similar) and that fascism (one party rule, military police state) is not that different.

Can someone give me a practical, working definition of these terms. Examples, both real and theoretical could help too.

Damn, now that I think about it, whats the deal with totalitarianism and dictatorships too. Are the the same and how do they compare to the above. (No wonder I chose a science career instead of politics)

What we call “communism” isn’t exactly what Mr. Marx had in mind, but generally refers to states that have a central dictatorship run by an elite few, under the guise of socialism, with no democratic representation. Most of the time, the state is very oppressive and holds major propaganda campaigns to keep people in line. Examples are China and the former USSR.

Socialism generally refers to a state where services and products are provided by the state instead of private enterprise, and everyone’s property is the property of the state. There are no pure socialist places, but some countries in Europe have many socialist government programs. “Democratic socialism,” an idea that came after Marx, is pretty popular in the UK, for example.

The cynical answer to your last question is that a totalitarian state is our name for an authoritarian state that we don’t happen to support (this week).

A dictatorship is a government in which the ultimate power rests in the hands of a single person (although that power may be distributed among various bureaucratic agencies, or even legislative bodies to handle the day-to-day decisions–with the dictator having ultimate veto and the right to “suggest” legislation that will be enacted).

The difference between a dictator and a monarch (king) is that the dictator achieves power through public acclamation or by siezing it, whereas a monarch either inherits that power or is voted that power through “normal” means.

In a Totalitarian state, the government has control of every aspect of a person’s life. In an Authoritarian state, the government has control of every aspect of a person’s life except their ability to trade with a Western Power for the duration of the current crisis. (The “current crisis” is generally identified as an attempt to overthrow the government, purportedly by “commmunists” but more likely by people who just want to run their own country in a democratic or republican fashion. “Current crises” tend to run for 30 or 40 years unless the economy gets so bad the the Western Powers allow the dictator to be overthrown.)

Communism (in an ideal world) is a method of economy in which all goods are held in common by all people. The government provides for all the services to the people and money ceases to be needed, since the material goods are simply distributed to those who need them. This was the goal that Karl Marx envisioned that all governments would come to through natural (by his standards) revolt of the masses of people who were suppressed by the holders of money–the capitalists.
Communism actually works in a very limited way, usually among small religious groups, where the possession of property is not their prime purpose of association. Such groups (such as religious orders) can continue for hundreds of years. The one absolute requirement for communism to succeed appears to be celibacy. Every group that has tried communism but allowed the procreation of children has eventually broken up as the parents have attempted to establish “property” to make their children’s lives secure.

The various revolutionary groups who thought that they were carrying forward Marx’s vision tended to call themselves communists, so the name stuck, but none of them ever achieved communism, generally bogging down in a form of socialism. Since there were many people who did not want to surrender their property to the state, the Marxist-inspired governments tended to become authoritarian–holding the country until the “current crisis” of reactionary-capitalists-in-rebellion had been suppressed. Under such shining exemplars of humanity as Josef Stalin, those countries developed governments that were so heavy-handed that they earned the epithet “totalitarian.”

Socialism is a form of economy that allows for personal ownership of property, but requires that all major industries be owned by the government, in exchange for which the government will provide all the social benefits required by the population for “free” (aside from a very high tax rate). To the extent that any government provides any social service (health, housing, education), there is an element of socialism in that government. A great many countries have provided a wide range of socialist programs throughout the twentieth century, allowing historians and economists to try to figure out which mixture of socialism and capitalism will work the best. (Anyone who claims that either pure socialism or pure capitalism will lead us to a bright future of perfect harmony and contentment is delusional. Many very smart people can disagree quite sharply as to how much capitalism or socialism should go in the mix.)

Fascism was a specific form of government that used a modified socialist economy combined with an appeal to the ethnic heritage of the governed (with an implied–or, often, explicit–denial of the quality of any person not of that ethnic heritage). Mussolini, in Italy, was the first proponent of Fascism. Hitler used it effectively to gain and hold power. In his rise to power, Hitler made a big deal of opposing the (Marxist) “communists” and so people on the Left tend to equate Fascism with a right-wing form of government while people on the Right point to the (modified) socialist economy and equate it with a left-wing form of government. In popular parlance, Fascism is more frequently asociated with right-wing authoritarian or “police” states (such as Franco’s Spain), so the Leftists won the battle of words (although not necessarily by being accurate).

Labelling Nixon a fascist was an attempt to equate his “Law and Order” platform with the police state maintained by Hitler. It had nothing to do with the economy or any valid use of the word Fascism.

(I have capitalized Fascism and not socialism or communism for the purposes of noting that it was a specific political movement rather than an economic theory. Historians and stylists can point out the error of my decision at their leisure.)

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What he said.

We’ve got some Mennonite colonies around where I live, and they’re communist. They seem to work great.

Communism will only work if the people in the system aren’t jerks.

jbird3000, where do you live?

Most of the Mennonites I have met were good capitalists (although the Mennonites and Amish do have a strong internal socialist policy of intra-group care).

What’s the difference? As one of my professors who is socialist (as I am) once answered:

What is the difference between a Catholic and Protestant?

XicanoreX

Wow. That was excellent, tomndebb. The only thing I would add regarding Fascism is the emphasis on a strong authoritarian leader, i.e. the “leadership principle” that Hitler and Goering were obsessed with. Also the suppression of unions and other worker movements.

I never though Communism was a form of government. Communsim, as described by Marx et al., is a Revolutionary System, meant to be a means to the end. The end, of course, is the Utopian Ideal whereby nobody owns anything, the State withers and dies, and everyone lives in Cloud-Cuckoo Land.

Even Marx realized Communism could not last. He said it would either progress to Utopia or fall back to Capitalism. Beginning with the USSR, however, they have followed a third path: Totalitarian/Authoritarian centered around a militant strongman. In China, he was Mao. In Cuba, Castro. In the old USSR, Stalin was archetypical, but Lenin was pretty evil himself. You get the idea: The revolution takes hold and those in control of it do not want to let go of power. So it turns from a real revolution to a Totalitarian state ostensibly based around the People’s Revolution but actually furthering the Party’s own ends.

Marx invented Communism because he never thought the upper classes would ever give the Proles the ballot. When the lower classes became politically active through strikes and labor movements, Communism was transmuted into Socialism: Achieving the Utopia through the ballot box. FDR was the first leader elected under this paradigm, and is in many was archetypical. He instituted changes that were nothing short of revolutionary, making the Federal Government an active player in the economy. If you want to find out how I feel about that, you’ll have to take this to GD. Or the Pit. Socialism really caught on in Europe, where Democratic Socialist and Christian Socialist (an oxymoron, given Marx’s views on religion) and Labor parties abound.

I had a very intelligent and funny history professor who lambasted Fascism as barely even qualifying as a political theory. In fact, that’s what it boils down to: a bunch of assholes in charge who don’t even pay lip service to some higher purpose (as is the case in communist dictatorships).

Quothe Mussolini:

Yeah, they just admit it. Fascism is surrendering yourself, your identity and your life to the state. You are nothing more than an individual (I use that term loosely) in the state.

Which is what totalitarian communism is, too. They just don’t admit it. It’s important to remember that Mussolini’s brand of fascism had little of the racial elements that Hitler’s did. For example, until Italy became one of Hitler’s puppet states, Jews weren’t heavily persecuted. (If I’m wrong on that, someone take me to task for it.)

SNenc and tomndeb, excellent expositions

I would say proper Fascism does pay lip service to a higher cause: Nationalism.

“Communism” achieves a directed economy by having the state directly take over the means of production (including worker organizations).

Fascism achieves a directed economy by keeping some of the private sector around but making it impossible to be in business if you’re not a collaborator (and not just financially, but physically, i.e. burn down your plant, send a mob to lynch you)
This thread makes me recall back in the 1980’s, when a listener to NPR wrote them to ask whether their Style Manual dictated that on Central American news coverage “right-wing” should always modify “death squads,” and “leftist” always modify “guerrillas.” :slight_smile:

jrd

In terms of identifying a “racial” group to despise, this is true. That was Hitler’s modification to Fascism. However, the need to identify the ethnic “people” with the “state” does run through Fascism. Mussolini ignored all the Lombard, Gothic, Hun, and Vandal invasions to invoke the “Glory of Rome” when whipping up his masses of followers. He ignored history to claim that he was re-establishing a new “Roman” empire in which the Italian people would participate. In his case, no group was singled out for spite and the claims were aimed at Roman/Italian superiority rather than the inferiority of some specific group. (He did try to impose Italian superiority on several groups of Africans, but he did not claim that they were sub-human.)

The claims of Franco were also less interested in denigrating minority groups in general, although the Basques were targeted as scapegoats on many occasions.

Wow, where to begin? Plenty material to work with and to answer to.

Socialism, communism, and fascism are all products of human society. What differentiates them, primarily, is who’s in power politically and economically. It is therefore possible that they may share some features in common (for instance, the nationalization of certain sectors of industry or service in Germany, Soviet Russia, or even France and England) while having completely different social bases.

All three forms are the result of social and economic crisis and emerge from the responses of the contending classes in society, although communism is an indirect result rather than an immediate one. More on this later.

This is a severe distortion of Marx’ thinking and correcting it is the point from which we need to progress. Marx did not say that communism would progress to Utopia or lapse back into capitalism. Nor is the “revolt of the masses” a natural occurrence, as tomndebb suggested. Marx’ thinking here is best summed up by these lines in the Communist Manifesto:

IOW, those who run society in their own interests meet with continual opposition from those they govern, and this opposition can erupt into social and political crisis when the economy goes sour. What happens next depends on who wins, to put it bluntly.

Under capitalism, the general division is between capitalists - the ones who run the businesses to make profits - and the working class - in general anyone who has to work and earn a paycheck to meet their daily needs. The system’s come under crisis many times, most notably in Paris in 1871, Russia in 1917, and Europe from the 1920s to the 1930s. When the working class seized power, as it did briefly during the Paris Commune and for somewhat longer in Russia, the result is revolutionary socialism (as Marx conceived it). When the capitalists are able to put down the revolts and consolidate their rule further, fascism comes into being.

Now here’s where communism comes into play. Revolutionary socialism is predicated on an organized working class taking political and economic power for itself and running the means of production towards its own interests. Ultimately its goal is communism, the evolution of “From each according to ability, to each according to work” into “From each according to ability, to each according to need”.

It is possible, however, that political leaders who call themselves socialists set a more gradual goal of winning greater reforms for the workers while leaving the basic mechanisms of capitalism untouched. IOW, fighting for a bigger piece of the pie instead of the whole bakery. The result is what Europeans call “democratic socialism” and most people in the US call “socialism” - a cradle-to-grave system where people’s needs in general are subsidized by the state but the economy is still generally directed by private enterprise.

So in a nutshell, communism is the result of the working class seizing social and political power for itself, fascism is the result of their failure to do so once they try, and ‘socialism’ is the result of radical or liberal leaders limiting the fight to achieving reforms and defusing any struggles that do arise.

Ok, thanks for the very excellent replies.

Lets see if I get this even halfway right in my head.

There are two kinds of communism…the one Marx came up with and the one we Americans refer to when in Joseph McCarthy mode.
Marx’s communism is where everyone works for the good of the group, you just produce what you can and take what you need. This works ok in some small organizations.
Communism as it is practiced (and what we mean when we refer to communist countries) is really more like socialism. People work, they get money, but not much and the government provides many services. What money people get they can spend as they see fit.
Socialism is very much like practiced communism (hence the name Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics) but what we call a country (socialist or communist) depends on if they are the good guys (or neutral) or the bad guys.
Fascism is authoritarian rule and is more a social concept then an economic concept. So a socialist or communist country can also be fascist, depending on how severe the government controls social policy.

A dictatorship is where one person makes all the government rules.
Totalitarianism is where the government controls nearly all aspects of the peoples lives. It can be a dictatorship or socialist, or I suppose any of a variety of governments. I also can see where a fascist government is by definition a totalitarian government too.

Please remember I’m not representing these ideas as facts, I’m merely stating what I think I’ve been able to understand from what has been said in the above posts. Would anyone care to confirm or correct my thoughts?

No. Two kinds of socialism, revolutionary and reformist. Revolutionary socialism when implemented will develop into communism; reformist socialism makes things better for most in the short term but doesn’t eliminate the appearance of economic crises.

No. “Good of the group” is utilitarianism, more akin to Bentham than Marx. Marx’ socialism is economic and political - the working class takes over the means of production and runs it in their interest; social interaction and outlook then change and develop new forms from the new basis.

What the “McCarthy mode” calls communism (E. Europe, Russia, Cuba, N. Korea, Vietnam) is state capitalism - the heads of private enterprise are replaced by the state, which now plans and directs economic and industrial development. This is not the same thing as the workers controlling the means of production.

Totalitarianism is incompatible with revolutionary socialism. The latter is predicated on the goal of abolishing classes; the former can only exist if class division remains. In Germany’s case, it was the result of a fascist victory. In Russia’s case it was the result of the isolation of the socialist revolution and the collapse of the working-class base that had made it, thus separating and opposing the growing Party bureaucracy from the general population (almost completely agricultural).

Southern Manitoba. Actually, I’m not actually sure if they’re Mennonite. They may be Hutterite. It’s kinda weird, the place aren’t on the map, but I meet them at work.