All is forgiven. McGwire admitted using steroids

[gonzomax]

Mark McGwire shocked the baseball world by admitting using steroids and HGH for a decade. He says he regrets he played during the steroids era. So now we can all forgive him. Next year it is the H.O.F..

[Oakminster]

Got a link?

[Jack Batty]

First Palin ends up on Fox 'News' and now this. My entire world-view is being shaken to its core!

If someone tells me the Pope is Catholic I'm just going to shit!

[jk1245]

Linky

Used roids and HGH "on occasion" for most of the 90's. This should end any HOF aspirations, if the writers don't have their heads up their @sses.

[ReticulatingSplines]

I guess after four years of trying the "do nothing and hope my Hall votes increase" strategy, he's finally embraced the Andy Pettitte Approach.

[garygnu]

His timing is good: right after failing to get into the Hall, even with ten more votes. It provides a whole year for people to get used to it.

[Marley23]

And all across the nation arose a great cry of "No shit!"

Originally Posted by jk1245

This should end any HOF aspirations, if the writers don't have their heads up their @sses.

In the long run it's more likely to help him than hurt him. For four years he's gotten about 23 percent of the vote and everybody knew he did steroids, so he was not going to get in by himself. If he shows people he's sorry and takes some steps to rehabilitate his image, he could get more support. He may not get into the hall, but he wasn't going to get in anyway.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by jk1245

Linky

Used roids and HGH "on occasion" for most of the 90's. This should end any HOF aspirations, if the writers don't have their heads up their @sses.

I disagree that it'll end his chances - it should only improve them. People can forgive, but they can't do that if you remain silent. There was talk by LaRussa of letting him pinch hit at some point this season, putting his HOF candidacy on hold for 5 years so this whole era can be put into a bit more historical context. Frankly, I don't see that as a bad idea at all.

[Hamlet]

Originally Posted by Jack Batty

First Palin ends up on Fox 'News' and now this. My entire world-view is being shaken to its core!

If someone tells me the Pope is Catholic I'm just going to shit!

Where, though? Because I've heard that .... gasp ... Bears shit in the woods!!!!

[Hamlet]

Originally Posted by Munch

I disagree that it'll end his chances - it should only improve them. People can forgive, but they can't do that if you remain silent. There was talk by LaRussa of letting him pinch hit at some point this season, putting his HOF candidacy on hold for 5 years so this whole era can be put into a bit more historical context. Frankly, I don't see that as a bad idea at all.

Why? Either he cheated or he didn't. And he did. Voting on it 5 years from now shouldn't make a difference at all.

[jk1245]

Originally Posted by Munch

I disagree that it'll end his chances - it should only improve them. People can forgive, but they can't do that if you remain silent. There was talk by LaRussa of letting him pinch hit at some point this season, putting his HOF candidacy on hold for 5 years so this whole era can be put into a bit more historical context. Frankly, I don't see that as a bad idea at all.

What I mean is it should be obvious that he in no way belongs in the Hall. The only reason to put him there would his 563 career HR and his '98 season, both of which now are known to be inflated. By comparison, Bonds should still go in since even if you discount his numbers from 98 on ('98 is when he's alleged to have started the juice), he's still a HOF'er. If you discount McGwire's numbers post 93, he's Cecil Fielder. maybe even worse, since his career may well have been over in the mid 90's.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Why? Either he cheated or he didn't. And he did. Voting on it 5 years from now shouldn't make a difference at all.

Maybe it shouldn't, but that doesn't mean it won't. And he wouldn't be on the ballot as the unrepentant cheater who wouldn't admit anything. To tell you the truth I don't know why "I'm not here to talk about the past" hurt him so much. He wouldn't admit the obvious truth, but at least he took the session seriously enough that he wouldn't lie about what he did, unlike Palmeiro and Sosa.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Why? Either he cheated or he didn't. And he did. Voting on it 5 years from now shouldn't make a difference at all.

Because it's becoming more and more apparent that nearly everyone cheated. The more we learn how pervasive the abuse was, the less egregious the violation was. Because at what point do you discount his accomplishments? What if every single one of his homeruns were against pitchers who were also juicing? What if it's revealed that Selig knew about the situation and didn't do anything? How can it really be against the rules if the commissioner said it was okay?

[Airman Doors, USAF]

I never cared to begin with. They did it to themselves, and they and they alone have to live with the physical aftermath of their decisions. Since he did nothing unusual for that era and broke no rules in effect at the time, I think he should have been put in on the first ballot. I also think that this is manufactured outrage and has been from the get-go, as evidenced by attendance numbers and their increase since 1994. People had the opportunity to vote with their feet and chose to go to the ballpark.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Munch

There was talk by LaRussa of letting him pinch hit at some point this season, putting his HOF candidacy on hold for 5 years so this whole era can be put into a bit more historical context. Frankly, I don't see that as a bad idea at all.

That's a ridiculous idea. He's been retired for 5 years. Unless he can still belt the ball - which I doubt - he's got no business stepping onto a baseball diamond, except wearing his coaching hat.

Not that I give two shits about the purity of baseball - just that that would be too much.

[D_Odds]

I don't think the playing field was so uneven that allowing admitted steroid users in invalidates the Hall of Fame. If you remember from the last round, there were a bunch of small guys on the user list. Size and home runs alone are not an indicator of usage. It was pervasive, and while I have no proof, I'm fairly certain baseball management, maybe even up to the commissioner, turned a blind eye to the situation as long as it was putting asses every 18".

What gets me the most is the constant need for sports hacks to finally get a guy to say, "Yes, I did them." Does it matter? So many of that era will be tainted regardless of what they say. Let's suppose that Sammy Sosa and David Ortiz really didn't juice. Will anyone believe them? Players are now damned if they did and damned if they didn't. It's a no-win situation for them. Even now, there are so many designer PEDs that can slip through testing that the smart athlete (an oxymoron most of the time) can continue to use and not get picked up on the tests, and last I heard HGH still isn't testable. The best a player can hope for is that he is never linked with a PED investigation or usage.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by D_Odds

I don't think the playing field was so uneven that allowing admitted steroid users in invalidates the Hall of Fame. If you remember from the last round, there were a bunch of small guys on the user list. Size and home runs alone are not an indicator of usage.

Yup - lots and lots of middle relievers, who completely rely on their ability to heal/recover quickly from muscle strain. There are a lot of medical experts advocating for the allowed limited use of steroids to recover from injury in baseball (and other professional sports).

[TruCelt]

I don't really understand what the story is here. didn't he admit to using Andro years ago? Is it that he's admitted to using other forms of steroid?

<3 <3 He'll always be my favorite player regardless. <3 <3

[D_Odds]

McGwire admitted to using an over-the-counter supplement that, if I recall the story correctly, was banned in football but not baseball.

Seems I was right, here's the wiki:

In 1998, after an article by Associated Press writer Steve Wilstein, McGwire admitted to taking androstenedione, an over-the-counter muscle enhancement product that had already been banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency, the NFL and the IOC. At the time, however, use of the substance was not prohibited by Major League Baseball and it would not be classified an anabolic steroid in the United States Congress until 2004.

[Oakminster]

I vote we strike McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds from the record books. The last guys we're sure were clean are Roger Marris and Hank Aaron, so let the records revert to 61 for a season, and 755 for a career.

[Awgrimm]

I vote we strike McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds from the record books. The last guys we're sure were clean are Roger Marris and Hank Aaron, so let the records revert to 61 for a season, and 755 for a career.

What do you consider "clean"? Players had been using amphetamines for decades before steroids became an issue.

[D_Odds]

Oakminster, how about for players who have admitted use over a short period (1 or 2 seasons)? Do we just strike those seasons from the record, or is a player forever tainted?

The steroid 'scandal' is more important for the papers it sells and the advertisers it gets on sports radio than it is to the "integrity" of the game.

[ElvisL1ves]

Ah, the idealism of youth ... Amphetamines were rampant in baseball then, too, and up to fairly recent years as well. That was just as open a secret as steroids were, pre-Canseco-book. Should Aaron's record come down if he admitted having popped greenies before every game, "like everyone else"? At least we know alcohol didn't help Ruth play baseball.

I'd really like to know how true it is that "everybody did steroids". If that's pretty much true, then there pretty much has to be a blanket amnesty for it, just like there's a tacit one for amphetamines. The best guys juiced, or amped, would still be the best guys clean, you have to assume. And it wouldn't have been poor sportsmanship to follow the same "rules" as most everyone else.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by Awgrimm

What do you consider "clean"? Players had been using amphetamines for decades before steroids became an issue.

This. If HGH had been available, they'd have taken it.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by D_Odds

Oakminster, how about for players who have admitted use over a short period (1 or 2 seasons)? Do we just strike those seasons from the record, or is a player forever tainted?

The steroid 'scandal' is more important for the papers it sells and the advertisers it gets on sports radio than it is to the "integrity" of the game.

At the very least, any stats for years where there was steroid use should be thrown out. For McGwire, that includes 1998, so no record for him. I've never considered either of Bonds' records legitimate.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF

I never cared to begin with. They did it to themselves, and they and they alone have to live with the physical aftermath of their decisions. Since he did nothing unusual for that era and broke no rules in effect at the time, I think he should have been put in on the first ballot. I also think that this is manufactured outrage and has been from the get-go, as evidenced by attendance numbers and their increase since 1994. People had the opportunity to vote with their feet and chose to go to the ballpark.

Do you feel the same way about the 1970's Steelers abusing steroids?

[Hawkeyeop]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

At the very least, any stats for years where there was steroid use should be thrown out. For McGwire, that includes 1998, so no record for him. I've never considered either of Bonds' records legitimate.

Can we throw out all stats from when baseball was segregated too? How bout the greenie users? Spitballers? What about the crazy numbers that happened the first years in Colorado. The numbers during WW2 in which the majority of players would not normally be mlb caliber? What if the pitchers facing Mcgwire were juiced. Throw out those too or just say they cancel out?

Throwing out numbers is beyond silly. There isn't a such a pure sterile stat, not Ruth's 714 and not Maris's 61. The numbers always are affects by the situation around them, and it is up to analysts/fans to determine what was the most impressive showing. Mcgwire hit 70 home-runs in a season. You may not like, but he did just the same, and no revisionist history changes that. Throw in the fact that steroids were against the rules much the same way that blocking the plate is against the rules (ie never enforced and often encouraged), we have no idea how much steroids helped (the evidence seems to suggest minimally overall), nor who took what when, we can't begin to imagine what a steroid free era would have looked like.

I'm glad Mcgwire came clean and hope this is the beginning of the process that will some day see him enshrined. He was a fantastic hitter doing the two most important things, getting on base and hitting for power as well as almost anyone in the history of the game. I'm interested in knowing more of the specifics of what he used when, not so I can determine how to punish him, but rather to get a better understanding of the affect of steroids on performance. I also find it interesting he took it to get over injuries. I suspect the majority of users used for that reason rather than a desire to become macho power hitting machines.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by jk1245

Linky

Used roids and HGH "on occasion" for most of the 90's. This should end any HOF aspirations, if the writers don't have their heads up their @sses.

This whole "on occasion" thing always bugs me. Its like a teenager being caught smoking pot red-handed and then telling their parents the half-truth that they were "just trying it for the first time" or something, when in reality they smoke it every day.

I don't believe that for a second. Him, Bonds and Sosa ballooned to ridiculous sizes over a pretty short period of time. They became caricatures of themselves. I hope none of them gets in the Hall.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Why are we still talking about the past?

[Munch]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

Why are we still talking about the past?

To his credit, McQwire did say in his presser today "I'm ready to talk about the past". It acknowledges the ridiculousness of that stance versus Congress. (Also to his credit - at least he attempted to not lie to Congress, and wanted to move forward to make the game better. Unlike Sosa and Palmeiro...)

[DSYoungEsq]

Originally Posted by Hawkeyeop

I also find it interesting he took it to get over injuries. I suspect the majority of users used for that reason rather than a desire to become macho power hitting machines.

While I agree with much of your post, this appears to be quite naive. While that may have been the start of why he used them, even he admits (if you read what he said carefully) to using them to "avoid getting injured again." That's just rationalization. "Man, I feel good on these things! I guess I'll keep using them! And maybe I'll even avoid further injury if I do!"

He was using them because large numbers of players were doing so, ignoring the medical advice in their effort to try and (as he terms it) justify their large contracts and become better players. This doesn't make it right. But if he doesn't get into the Hall, then you might as well eliminate almost anyone who played during the 90s from the Hall.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

From the clip I heard with Bob Costas, it sounds like McGuire is going with the "any one a you woulda done the same" defense.

[gonzomax]

Users are not just the stars. If you were on the edge of getting into the bigs, would you take them to get over the hump.? Lots of regular players were using too. But there is no starting point. Who was the first user in the big leagues? Are they gone now? Until you can definitively answer those questions, it is a mess. pitchers used too. That sort of evens things out.

[Jackmannii]

The "everybody did it but only some got caught so we can't punish anybody" argument doesn't resonate with me.

McGwire shouldn't be hurting for dough. He can coach and sign autographs at shows for people who think he's hot stuff. He and the others who have inflated power stats because they bloated up on steroids do not have a constitutionally guaranteed right to go into the Hall of Fame. Cheers to all the writers who feel the same way.

Or they can build a druggie wing onto the Hall, and include displays showing the abused substances and before and after photos of Bonds and the others.

Might be fun.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

The "everybody did it but only some got caught so we can't punish anybody" argument doesn't resonate with me.

Odd, you're the first to mention it. McGwire didn't get "caught". You might have noticed from the title of this thread that he came out and admitted it - he wasn't brought up on charges from a grand jury or suspended from the game from failing a piss test. You might have also noticed a number of posts in this thread detailing the widespread use of PEDs during both McGwire's career, as well as those of generations of baseball players. If you're so opposed, where do you draw the line?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

Why are we still talking about the past?

Because in terms of electing someone to the baseball HOF, its relevant, although it could be argued that the voting process is as efficient as the BCS is for collegiate football bowl games. Scratch that....it is LESS efficient and makes LESS sense than the BCS process.


"But I've written for the Toronto Blue Jays for 40 years, of course I deserve a vote, even if I've never been to a game in 25 years nor really watched the player I'm voting on!!!"

[kenobi 65]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

"But I've written for the Toronto Blue Jays for 40 years, of course I deserve a vote, even if I've never been to a game in 25 years nor really watched the player I'm voting on!!!"

I'd yank that guy's voting priviledge, if for no other reason than he can't even remember the fact that the Blue Jays are only 33 years old.

[gonzomax]

Canseco told the truth. The liars were the people who left him out to dry by denying everything he said.
McGwire only came clean because he was trying to get a job in baseball. He had to get the commotion over before spring training. A batting coach does not get all the press. He works more in the background.
The H.O.F. is a knotty problem. You almost have to start with the premise that everyone used. It was the steroids era. HGH and other chemicals were also used.

[Hawkeyeop]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

Canseco told the truth. The liars were the people who left him out to dry by denying everything he said.
used.

Canseco lied constantly. In his book many items could easily be proved wrong just from looking at game logs. The fact that he was right on some things (and Mcgwire's admission doesn't match what Canseco's account) does not make Canseco into a righteous hero.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by kenobi 65

I'd yank that guy's voting priviledge, if for no other reason than he can't even remember the fact that the Blue Jays are only 33 years old.

Tee-hee.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

McGwire only came clean because he was trying to get a job in baseball.

He already has the job: he's the Cardinals' batting coach. But yes, he needed to address this or people would have asked him all season.

[China Guy]

This is a slippery slope. What about Catfish Hunter throwing that perfect no hitter will ripped to the gills on acid? Huh, you want to invalidate that accomplishment too?

[Munch]

Originally Posted by China Guy

This is a slippery slope. What about Catfish Hunter throwing that perfect no hitter will ripped to the gills on acid? Huh, you want to invalidate that accomplishment too?

That was Doc Ellis, and it was just a no-hitter, not a perfect game.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Invalidate Ellis's no-hitter? The guy deserves a medal--do you have any idea how distracting an acid trip can be? It's like winning a marathon with your legs in a potato sack.

[Marley23]

I don't think any human being could reasonably contend that LSD is a performance enhancing drug in sports. As an experiment I propose we dose the Washington Nationals and New Jersey Nets before games and see what happens.

[KennerTheGreat]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

Invalidate Ellis's no-hitter? The guy deserves a medal--do you have any idea how distracting an acid trip can be? It's like winning a marathon with your legs in a potato sack.

Check out the boxscore from Ellis' no hitter. Eight walks, six strikeouts and a hit batter.

[ElvisL1ves]

But you'd have to leave in Dock Ellis' (not Doc) game where he got totally wasted first, and thought it would be fun to just drill every Reds hitter. Now THAT was a fun one to listen to on the radio.

[Philster]

First, you have a statistics issue:

If the statistics were recorded, and the game was complete, and the season, etc, then you have statistics to report on. Since all the games, at bats and seasons are done/recorded/official, the stats get recorded, too.

Easy enough.

Next issue: Hall of Fame (HOF)

The Hall of Fame, its own entity apart from MLB, has guidelines, one being that MLB banned players are not going to be inducted into the Hall. Baseball bans Rose, and the HOF won't induct him, even if Rose got 100% of the sports writers' to actually write-in votes for him.

Then you have all sorts of players, like the Macs, Bonds, spit-ballers, meth users, drinkers, gamblers, racists, and a host of others who have already been judged, and will be judged going forward, by the baseball writers of America. Guess what? It's subjective, and there are a host of issues about guys they did/didn't induct. Subjectively, steroids are just real bad karma right now, so the writers are staying away. 'round and 'round we go, because the writers of yore had no problems with all sorts of characters, including drug users. Their are some players with stats that don't scream "HOF" that are in there, and some guys with better ones not in there. Not perfect is the process.

Maybe the HOF will figure out better ways to induct players, but right now it's left to a very finicky and subjective vote by the writers.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

It's not a personal character thing, it's a cheating thing. The other drugs are not PED's. Even amphetamines do not alter one's physical body or give an individual abilities he does not already possess. They don't make anybody faster or stronger. Steroids and other PED's like HGH are a completely different animal.

Asfar as I'm concerned, the records are still 61 (and I know Roger Maris allegedly used amphetamines. I don't care, for the reasons I've already stated) and 755.

[ElvisL1ves]

PED = Performance Enhancing Drug. Amphetamines are drugs that enhance performance. Ergo ...