Travel tips for Spain - Portugal trip

[CarnalK]

We are planning for a 2-3 week spring vacation for Spain and Portugal, probably in May. Definitely want to spend some time in Barcelona then maybe a train/car combination along the coast down towards Gibraltar-Tarifa area to do a day trip to Morocco (I'm under the impression there's a ferry at Tarifa). Then, I'm not sure, scoot over to Lisbon or something.

Any travel planning, hotel or sight seeing tips would be appreciated.

[Chefguy]

The Spanish coast was nice when I did it 30 years ago, but I'm sure things are much more expensive now. I lived in Lisbon for two years in the 90s, so am more familiar with that. It's worth visiting, as it is very much an old-Europe type of city, even though it was completely rebuilt after the big earthquake and fire in 1755. There is a lot of old Pombaline architecture still in the city. Lisbon is charming with its hills and narrow streets and trams. The old section of Alfama is an interesting place to explore, sprawling down the hillside below Sao Jorge castle. Also visit the Bairro Alto section, which is famous for its fado bars and restaurants.

[Novelty Bobble]

We spent a wonderful time in Tavira, the beach is superb (reached by a quick ferry ride) and the town is un-touristy and interesting.
If you like fish, the fish-market there is a must. We rented a villa and had a huge barbie with about 10 euros worth of the freshest seafood ever. Simple and wonderful and more than we could eat, though we forced ourselves.

We also had a night in a hotel overlooking Faro marina, also very nice.

[Huerta88]

In Barcelona (any port city -- cliches are true) watch your wallet, etc. Street crime (pickpocketing, hookers) is really bad, esp. in tourist areas. Make some time for the Costa Brava and Catalonian countryside. Try to make it to Montserrat.

Valencia's lovely. Benidorm and Ibiza are crap unless you want Eurotrash.

Eat! If you like high-end stuff, we found the one-star Michelin places far better and more affordable than some one-star places in France or elsewhere. If more casual, the tapas are great and so is the wine.

[Negative Lite]

I'm an American living in Madrid.

While I prefer the north of Spain (Austurias, Cantabria, Basque Country and Navarra) I'll leave that aside in favor of what most tourists go for.

Barcelona - Several days to enjoy the city and night life and Costa Brava beaches
One day trip to visit the towns of Girona and Figueres (which has an incredible Salvador Dali museum)
Another day trip to see Montserrat.

Trying to drive around the coast down to Tarifa sounds pretty unworkable to me (and rather dreary too - it's not exactly the most beautiful coast drive). Spain is mostly laid out in a spiderweb where all points interconnect in the center at Madrid. If you are headed south, heading in to Madrid is the best way to get there.

So take the high-speed train to Madrid. You'll get there in just three hours. I don't know if you're an art buff but Madrid has world class museums. You should at least see Picasso's Guernica at the Reina Sofia Museum. The Retiro park is a wonderful afternoon's visit on a spring day in May. And there's plenty more, so a day stayover in Madrid is definitely worth your while.

From Madrid you should then hit the high points of Andalusia. That's Granada, Cordoba, Ronda, and Sevilla. All are must-sees. Jump down to Morocco from there if you wish.

Another poster recommended Tavira, which is a small fishing town due west of Sevilla on the other side of the border with Portugal. Quaint town and lovely beaches. Cheaper than Spain too.

From Tavira, I'd drive west along the south coast of Portugal and then up to Lisbon.

Lisbon's amazing, it's like a cross between San Francisco and Paris. I'd especially recommend the trolley car rides, the Gulbenkian museum, and the cloisters at the Monastery of Jeronimos. You must visit the unique and world famous Bar Pavilhao Chinese (R. Dom Pedro V 89) in the Barrio Alto. It's filled with knick-knacks and curios. For restaurants, make a reservation (and a reservation is a must) for Resto (Rua Costa do Castelo 7) up in the Alfama, with incredible views of the city and fine food.
Then schedule a day trip to Sintra, with its fairy-tale castles. Entrance is a little pricey, but worth every penny.

For more specific advice it would help to know your tastes in travel. But that's all for now. Have fun!

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by Negative Lite

You must visit the unique and world famous Bar Pavilhao Chinese (R. Dom Pedro V 89) in the Barrio Alto. It's filled with knick-knacks and curios.

Hey, I lived right across the street from that place at 76 (if memory serves)! They really do have quite a collection. There was a great bakery a couple of doors down from there and a little grocery on the corner run by an unapologetic drunk. Also a tile store right next door to us.

If one visits Jeronimos, right down the street from the monastery is the most famous bake shop in Lisbon, if not in all Portugal, where they make pasteis de Belem (a puff pastry heaped with custard and browned on top: the Portuguese version of a creme brulee.

Nitpick: it's Bairro Alto, not Barrio Alto. The wacky Portuguese language, doncha know.

[chique]

It's been a few years since I've been but...

Originally Posted by CarnalK

...to do a day trip to Morocco (I'm under the impression there's a ferry at Tarifa)...

this is is something you might want to double check. At that time only EU passports could go through Tarifa; the rest of us schlubs had to go to Algeciras by Gib. We took an overnight tour - if you're doing three weeks I think it's worth looking into a ferry/hotel package; Tangier was neat to my naive eyes because it doesn't cost to look.

A friend of mine was stationed in Rota on his twilight tour at the time and I loved every second I was there. His flat was in the old part of the city next to the castle and cathedral (just across the street from this rather nice hotel). We toured quite a bit - can't recommend the Allhambra or Mezquita enough, for example - but, for me, the best part was walking til I got tired then looking for a restaurant with an umbrella or something and eating whatever I pointed at on the menu. I really liked that part of Spain, a lot more than Sevilla or other points north. I think the Atlantic coast is kind of thrown over for the Med which is too bad, but it leaves for a less-frenetic quiet on the ocean side of the country.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

Originally Posted by Huerta88

Eat! If you like high-end stuff, we found the one-star Michelin places far better and more affordable than some one-star places in France or elsewhere. If more casual, the tapas are great and so is the wine.

I just have to second this advice (I am not too much of a foodie, but I think I know a bit about great food) and ask you to PLEASE not overlook the random hole-in-the-wall tapas joints.

I spent a month in Spain a few years back (Barcelona, Girona, Madrid) and some of the most amazing meals I enjoyed were had in nondescript little joints that I just happened into.

You do NOT need to spend a fortune in Spain to eat (and drink) like a king, and locals seem to do just fine without breaking the bank.

[chique]

Originally Posted by Huerta88

Eat!

Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake

...and ask you to PLEASE not overlook the random hole-in-the-wall tapas joints.

And in an attempt to belabor this point, by some absurd coincidence some ticky-tacky relatives of mine took a ticky-tacky guided tour to some ticky-tacky little resort area where they got to eat on tickets. Seriously. The tour told them where to eat and when and they hated everything they put in their mouths. I came back raving about tender beef and beautiful seafood and they were eating low-rent Holiday Inn food.

Don't be like my relatives. Be brave. You'll come out ahead.

[GilaB]

Originally Posted by chique

It's been a few years since I've been but... this is is something you might want to double check. At that time only EU passports could go through Tarifa; the rest of us schlubs had to go to Algeciras by Gib.

This was true in March '09, when we went from Tangiers to Algeceiras, which is a bus ride (and a short stroll across the border and (no joke) the airport runway) from Gibraltar. As Americans, we couldn't go through Tarifa. Also, it's more than a day trip - allot at least an overnight for it. Tangiers is beautiful, but we found the salespeople offputting. Elsewhere in Morocco, they'll shout to you as you walk past their store, perhaps try to give you a menu as you go past their restaurant, but if you keep walking, they'll leave you alone. In Tangiers, they follow you up the street. It's a bit much. That said, if you want to splurge a bit, we stayed in the gorgeous Dar Nour, which I'd highly recommend. We got an insane deal by showing up at 8 pm, bargaining, and getting the last room they had (linked above) for 800 dirhams ($100) rather than 1300.

We were only in Spain briefly, although we did have a lovely weekend in Gibraltar. Go there for a day trip if you're in the neighborhood, hike the Rock, and enjoy England, with Spanish architecture. (It happens to have the nicest, most welcoming Orthodox Jewish community either of us had ever been to in our entire lives, anywhere in the world, but that's probably of less interest to you.)

[CarnalK]

Thanks for the answers so far, guys. I will definitely look into the passport issue for crossing at Tarifa. As it happens, my GF has a French passport, but all I've got is the trusty Canadian one.

And I have no fear of hole in the wall type places as long as they don't look certain to poison me. Any more specific suggestions along those lines works for me.

I'll take your traveling to advice seriously, Negative Lite. Perhaps we'll travel by train through Madrid down to the Tarifa area and drive to Portugal from there. I know that we are going to want a car of our own for part of this trip regardless. Neither of us are much the guided tour type so it's nice to be able to strike out on your own when you feel like it.

To be more specific about what we're looking for, just the basic soak up the local culture. Any music, wine, festival, neighborhoods suggestions would be good. We're pretty definitely going to the south end and then over to Portugal.

I'll get my girlfriend to look at the thread tomorrow and see what strikes her. Thanks again.

[Nava]

Webpage for the Portuguese train company, in English.

Webpage for the Spanish train company Renfe, which hasn't really bothered with an English version (in theory they have, but they have only translated a bit and as soon as you select a route, it reverst).

Eurail visitor passes includes an option covering Portugal+Spain.

For some previous threads on Barcelona, this thread has some information and links to previous ones. Both matt_mcl and myself tend to pop up in these threads.

Often you will find that cercanías/rodalies are about as fast as the fast trains: the main difference is in the comfort level and the routes. There are trains from Barcelona to Valencia (an eminently visitable city - oh wait... oh, good, you won't be there for Fallas; Fallas are great if you like them but every hotel within 200km is full), I suggest spending at least two nights there. The lonja (central market) is a rare example of civil gothic; the main train station itself is Modernista; the Ciudad de las Ciencias is both ultra-dupa-modern and, if you like science museums, quite cool (as well as cool in the temperature sense, which in May can be a plus).

From Valencia you can either continue down the coast or go to the spider's lair Madrid, perhaps with a stopover in little, tranquil, pretty Cuenca. The sight of the river gorge from the "hung houses" containing the Modern Art Museum is not for the faint hearted.

Two inland Andalusian cities which you may want to consider (I'm not familiar with either the coast or the Andalusian capital, Sevilla):
If you plan on stopping in Granada, take into account that tickets for the Alhambra MUST be purchased IN ADVANCE. As in, way in advance, not the day before.

I was in Córdoba last May: it's time for the local Feria, definitely worth a visit. It's less famous than Sevilla's, but also a lot more visitor-friendly. We went to visit Medina Azahara, there's a guy in a roulotte outside selling drinks. He told us it was the best time to visit, as it "hasn't gotten too hot yet." When we pointed out that the previous day had hit 40C, he laughed and said "well, yeah, but only for two hours, see?" Ah yes. We did, indeed, see.


I always forget: a great way to eat relatively cheap, although following the Spanish custom of having a relatively heavy lunch and light dinner, is "Menú del día," a short menu whose items are already cooked (so, less waiting time) and, if applicable, the ingredients are fresh. If you're asked whether you'll be asking "from the menu", make sure to say "from menú del día" - otherwise they may give you the regular menu.

And for most things you'll find that a good rule of thumb is "normal time plus two." In other countries, people eat between noon and 2pm: in Spain, between 2pm and 4pm. Movie times? The same. Dinner times? The same. Usual opening time for museums and stores-other-than-supermarkets? 10am.

[panache45]

No matter how many days you spend in Barcelona, it won't be enough. Especially if you're a fan of Gaudí's architecture. It's one of my favorite European cities.

And I was surprised by how much I loved Seville. It's a really charming town with much going on.

[Nava]

Salads: dressings are very, very uncommon in Spain. Normally if you get a salad you'll also get the olive oil, salt and vinegar so you can add them to taste. You may need to ask for pepper, as it's less common. The basic ensalada is just salad and tomato (maybe onion); ensalada mixta is salad, tomato, black olives, onion, hard-boiled egg and canned tuna. Ensalada del chef or ensalada de la casa, you'll have to ask. Ensalada aragonesa is pasta and chorizo, no vitamins to be found.

[Quercus]

Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake

I just have to second this advice (I am not too much of a foodie, but I think I know a bit about great food) and ask you to PLEASE not overlook the random hole-in-the-wall tapas joints.

I spent a month in Spain a few years back (Barcelona, Girona, Madrid) and some of the most amazing meals I enjoyed were had in nondescript little joints that I just happened into.

You do NOT need to spend a fortune in Spain to eat (and drink) like a king, and locals seem to do just fine without breaking the bank.

otra vez.
Best restaurant meal I had in Spain was "We're too hungry to walk any farther, so we'll eat at this random cafe with the construction workers eating there"

Also, my advice is to try and avoid having a car when you're in the cities. It's a hassle driving and parking, and you'll see the city better by walking or taking buses (and seeing the residents on the bus) than by driving around in a box. And for long distances, the train will be much more pleasant than driving (and you'll see more from the train than you will from a major highway).

One plan would be something like, fly in to Barca, after a couple days train to Madrid, a couple days later train to, say, Granada, then, only when you're leaving Granada, pick up a rental car and drive to the Atlantic coast, looking at the countryside. Drive back to somewhere you can drop off the car and take a train back to Madrid to fly out.

[Southern Yankee]

When looking for places to stay, make sure to consider one of the Paradores. We stayed in one in Carmona (outside Sevilla) that was amazing. Modern, comfortable hotel on the inside (still retaining historical charm) and 14th century fortress on the outside. Supposedly you can travel all of Spain and hit a Parador each night.

[Chefguy]

If you want to try an authentic Portuguese dish, order anything with the word "bacalhao" in the name. Just be prepared for a lot of salt and some odd combinations.

[Maastricht]

Try Sevilla. Antother one of the royal cities. The cathedral and the Alcazar palace are amazing.

Seville Events in April - Seville

Fiesta de San Marcos - April 25th, accompanying the image of San Marcos, eight bulls are lead through the streets
Feria de Abril - last Sunday in April, this is a major pilgrimage in Seville.
Seville Events in May - Seville

Feria del Caballo - first week of May, this is a popular horse fair in nearby Jerez de la Frontera
Festival Internacional de Teatro y Danza - throughout May, many world-class companies perform in Seville's Teatro de la Maestranza
Festival de los Patios - second week in May, held in Cordoba, different types of patio are displayed
Romeria de San Isidro - May 15th, Romerias are held in many town in the Andalusia region (this is a must if you love horses and horseriding!)
Feria de Mayo - last week of May, this festival is held in Cordoba

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by Southern Yankee

When looking for places to stay, make sure to consider one of the Paradores. We stayed in one in Carmona (outside Sevilla) that was amazing. Modern, comfortable hotel on the inside (still retaining historical charm) and 14th century fortress on the outside. Supposedly you can travel all of Spain and hit a Parador each night.

In Portugal they are called posadas. These are most often converted monasteries and manor houses and can be found throughout Portugal.

[Negative Lite]

Several people have said you can eat well just about anywhere in Spain. While that may be true in Barcelona and the north, I've found that restaurant food quality gets increasingly worse the further south you go. The center of Madrid is pretty hit or miss and, in my experience, Andalusia is mostly just plain "miss" (with exceptions).

Take note of what Nava mentioned about the hours here. In Spain everything runs two hours later and most restaurants don't even open before 1:30 for lunch or 8:30 for dinner. Portugal has more normal hours.

No reason to tip, ever. Just leave a few dimes. Leave nothing if you've only had drinks. Never ever ever leave more than 5%.

In general, Spain has excellent public transportation. One frustrating thing is that it's very hard to get to Portugal by bus or train! That's why I'd recommend you grab a rental car in Sevilla and drive into Portugal.

I'm going to recommend you visit one small town that someone else mentioned and that's Carmona. It's about twenty minutes east of Sevilla. The town's walls still stand and you can go up on the ramparts above the town gate. Every house has a lovely tiled entrance, so it makes for a nice little stroll. The Parador is beautiful. The town also has an ancient necropolis which I didn't get a chance to visit. After you get your rental car you can make a quick jaunt there before turning round to Portugal.

If you haven't driven in Europe before, you should strongly consider getting a GPS in your car. The Spanish concept of signage is ... confusing. Most highways are labeled according to their ultimate destination, so if you see a sign for Cordoba and you don't know if Cordoba is north south east or west, you'll quickly lose any and all sense of where you are or are going.

Let me know when you've settled on a general itinerary and I can give you more specific recommendations for each city.

Hasta la proxima.

[Negative Lite]

Oh, yes, wines. In a bar you can just order according to the wine region. For reds, try a La Rioja or a Ribera del Duero. For whites I like a Rueda. Try sangria (a wine punch) or a tinto de verano (red wine mixed with sparkling water) on a hot day.

[Negative Lite]

Damn, I keep forgetting stuff.

Any of these things pique your interest / turn you off, Carnal?

Cathedrals
Castles
Bullfights
Art and museums
Flamenco music
"Strange" food (like octopus)
Beaches
Shopping
Staying up late (perhaps as late as 4 am?)
Roman ruins
Architecture
Prehistoric remains (like cave paintings)

[Mahna Mahna]

Most of the advice I normally give re: places to go and things to do has already been covered, so I'll skip that.

However, I will emphasise Nava's advice re: mealtimes and add an extra caution - most of Southern Spain shuts down completely from about 1pm to 3pm for siesta. It's a bit of a culture shock at first... shuttered stores, closed cafes, and nary a person in sight. Not so much of a problem in the cities, but definitely the case in the smaller towns.

We found it was a good idea to keep some granola bars on hand to tide us over, especially at first while we adjusted to the local timetable for meals. Not to mention that we had a few experiences where the travel time between point A and point B landed us in town smack dab in the middle of siesta without an opportunity for lunch beforehand, and ended up having to choose between starving or disgusting tourist trap food.

Lisbon is lovely, but you may run out of time if you're working your way over from Barcelona (which needs ~3 days just to see the major highlights, and really ought to be more of a 4-5 day stay) and throwing in a side trip to Morocco on top. It could potentially be do-able with three weeks, but it'll feel very rushed if you squish it into two weeks.

(If you do make it to Lisbon, the Oceanarium is absolutely amazing, albeit a little pricey... plan to spend a few hours there if you can)

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by Negative Lite

Oh, yes, wines. In a bar you can just order according to the wine region. For reds, try a La Rioja or a Ribera del Duero. For whites I like a Rueda. Try sangria (a wine punch) or a tinto de verano (red wine mixed with sparkling water) on a hot day.

If you go to Jerez, don't miss its namesake sherry. In Lisbon, just down from the aforementioned Chinese Pavilion Bar is the Instituto do Vinho do Porto (port wine institute) with wonderful tastings from an extensive menu.

[Nava]

It ain't sparkling water (H2O+CO2), it's gaseosa (H2O+CO2+sweeteners+citric acid). Sangria must also be made with gaseosa. Legend has it that calimocho (or kalimotxo) was invented by a Spanish exchange student in the US when he was asked to make sangria with no gaseosa available and decided to try Cocacola instead.

The concept of putting up signs indicating where the road goes to and not the direction is European-wide, so if the GF has lived in France (as well as having the passport), she'll be used to it. It can still be a problem when you've been following signs to Madrid... Madrid... Madrid... and then get to an intersection and one arrow says Guadalajara, one Cuenca and whathappenedtoMadrid? If you come from the north, it's hiding behind Guadalajara; if you come from the east, behind Cuenca. Google Maps routes are often more up-to-date than tontones, but asking to be given a paper map with your car as well as a GPS or ponying up for one in the first gas station may be handy; personally, I find exploring routes on a big paper much easier than doing it on a small screen, and Spanish official road maps include information on things to visit.

[DoctorJ]

CrazyCatLady and I are also headed to Spain! We're going in March for about 10 days.

Right now we're trying to decide between the northern part (starting in Barcelona) and the Southern part (starting in Madrid), or a whirlwind trip that includes a little bit of both. We're serious foodies and explorers in general. We were going to let the plane fares decide, but it's about the same either way. Any thoughts?

Meanwhile, what's the best resource for brushing up on my Spanish? I know the basics--I had four semesters in college, but I use it so seldom anymore that it's mostly gone.

[Negative Lite]

Originally Posted by DoctorJ

CrazyCatLady and I are also headed to Spain! We're going in March for about 10 days.

Right now we're trying to decide between the northern part (starting in Barcelona) and the Southern part (starting in Madrid), or a whirlwind trip that includes a little bit of both. We're serious foodies and explorers in general. We were going to let the plane fares decide, but it's about the same either way. Any thoughts?

Meanwhile, what's the best resource for brushing up on my Spanish? I know the basics--I had four semesters in college, but I use it so seldom anymore that it's mostly gone.

When in March? Be advised that the last week of March is Easter Week (Semana Santa) which can greatly complicate or enhance your experience.

If you're serious foodies, I'd be inclined to steer you toward the north: Catalonia, Basque Country, Asturias, etc. Amazing eats up there. Order a cheese sandwich in a corner bar in a small town in the Basque country and it'll be a fine dining experience.

But the wild card is that March can be real rotten weather in the north. A couple years ago when my wife and I were touring Navarra and Aragon for Easter Week, there was such serious rain that the Ebro River flooded and overflowed the highway - we almost got cut off from returning to Madrid. I'm not so knowledgeable about weather in Barcelona in March.

The south just might be the safer bet weather wise. There's plenty to see down there during ten days if you're so inclined.

[Nava]

In Barcelona, the sky opens up in September or October and then it rains. For a month. Every day. I'm not talking a drizzle, more like waterfalls from the sky.

And then it stops until next Fall.

[DoctorJ]

We'll be flying out on the Saturday before Holy Week starts.

[CarnalK]

Well, we're still trying to bang out a rough itinerary. Once we have something more concrete I'll post again for more specific advice. It's all been good so far, we're going call the Spanish embassy or consulate to double-check on the Tarifa-passport thing.

In the mean time I'm happy to see you,DoctorJ, are here with more immediate need for travel advice keep up the questions. I have a feeling "whirlwind" will be a likely descriptor for our plans and since it seems we are going to have at least some overlapping of destinations, if not seasons, I'll happily poach advice to you.

[Nava]

DoctorJ, re. Easter.

Half of Spain gets off school Easter week plus the Monday after Easter. Half gets from Good Thursday at noon until the Sunday after Easter. So depending on where you are, you'll be running into lots of closed places in one week or the other.

If you're in Barcelona, it's time for the Monas de Pascua, chocolate cakes and figurines; don't look for "Easter eggs" outside Catalonia because you're unlikely to find it. If you hit the big days of Easter in Andalusia, be ready to elbow your neighbors in order to catch your breath, specially if you go down to Seville. In Northern Spain, Easter parades (procesiones) tend to involve several images (pasos) and be one a day, following a specific path. In Seville (and, I understand, Other Parts South), each paso has its own procesión. Pretty much every place, from Madrid to Villabajo del Conejo Cojo, province unknown, has procesiones.

And I just have to plug it... sorry! If you hit Saturday and Sunday near Tudela (Navarra), on Saturday morning (10am) you have the Volatín, a Jude; on Sunday morning, the Angel (1h later than the Volatín), both in the Plaza Nueva. They're both medieval in origin; parts of the setup for the Angel were already in use in the Plaza Vieja before the "New Square" was built (17th century).

[Nava]

Sorry, I checked and the Angel is at 9am. After the Angel, town empties up (locals go have lunch at their vegetable gardens, outside town), so many visitors just continue onward to the next town they're visiting.

Webpage for the Angel (warning: noisy!): http: //www.bajadaangeltudela.com/index.php

From the Navarrese Government, for el Volatín: http://www.turismonavarra.es/esp/org...El-Volatin.htm


ETA: bleeping autoparser!

[CrazyCatLady]

Thanks for all the information, Nava, but when he said we're flying out right before Holy Week, he meant we're coming home then, not heading out on our trip. Sorry about the confusion.

At this point we're leaning heavily toward Madrid and Andalusia, otherwise known as the horses, ham, and history itinerary. Right now we're thinking a day or two in Madrid when we first arrive, then swing either west or south and do an arc that includes Grenada (the Alhambra) and Jerez (the dancing horses), with further points to be filled in as we go along. Then swing back to Madrid for a day or so before we fly out.

We've discussed maybe sliding over into Portugal at some point, but we're not sure.

Any more suggestions? I never met a zoo, aquarium, wildlife reserve, or historical ruin/architecture I didn't like.

[Negative Lite]

Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady

Thanks for all the information, Nava, but when he said we're flying out right before Holy Week, he meant we're coming home then, not heading out on our trip. Sorry about the confusion.

At this point we're leaning heavily toward Madrid and Andalusia, otherwise known as the horses, ham, and history itinerary. Right now we're thinking a day or two in Madrid when we first arrive, then swing either west or south and do an arc that includes Grenada (the Alhambra) and Jerez (the dancing horses), with further points to be filled in as we go along. Then swing back to Madrid for a day or so before we fly out.

We've discussed maybe sliding over into Portugal at some point, but we're not sure.

Any more suggestions? I never met a zoo, aquarium, wildlife reserve, or historical ruin/architecture I didn't like.

For travel guides, I highly recommend the Rough Guide of Spain. I've devoured mine. In particular, its recommendations for restaurants I've found to be quite reliable. Really top-notch.

Important consideration: Are you going to rent a car out of Madrid or take the train?

OK, now I'll start unloading a little:

Granada
- Reserve your tickets for the Alhambra / Generalife online in advance.
- Visit the Mirador de San Nicolás at sunset for views of the Alhambra
- Granada is famous for its free tapas (though I've heard this is disappearing). Order a drink at a bar and they will often give you a free portion of food.
- If you aren't averse to eating snails, go to Bar Caracoles for a big plate of escargot - picante if you want them spicy.

Ronda is a terrific town to visit. This is a nice place to splurge for the Parador hotel, if you're inclined to open your wallet a bit.

Cordoba has the Mosque (confusingly called the Cathedral), which is a must-see, of course. I didn't get a chance to visit Medina Azahara but I hear it's nice.

Seville
- I recommend hotel Doña María which is right across from the cathedral: I didn't think the prices were too much considering the quality and location.
- Two nice restaurants: Casablanca (c/ Zaragoza 50) and La Taberna del Alabardero (c/ Zaragoza 20)
- See: Alcázar, Cathedral and Giralda, Hospicio de los Venerables Sacerdotes, Plaza de Toros, María Luisa Park, Plaza de España, Torre de Oro.

Outside Sevilla there are some very interesting Roman ruins (an amphitheatre and lots of mosaics, etc.) near the town of Italica. Tour buses go there. If you drive, try to spot one of the buses and follow it (roadsigns lead to the town of Italica, but not to the ruins, which are just beyond).

Upthread I recommended visiting the town of Carmona.

If you're driving you may want to see the Alpujarras and the famous "white towns" of Andalusia, but I suppose both could also be visited by tour buses out of Granada and Seville.

You also need to go to the monumental city of Toledo, which can be done as a day trip out of Madrid or on the way to or from Andalusia.

I'll give Madrid recommendations later.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by Negative Lite

Cordoba has the Mosque (confusingly called the Cathedral)...

Because it is The site has been holy since Roman times at least, according to some fragments they found when they were fixing part of the floor. It just keeps being re-co-opted. My mother joked it may become a bank next

[Negative Lite]

Madrid's strengths are its museums and bars/nightlife.

For museums, of course, there's the big three: the Reina Sofia (modern art, featuring Picasso's Guernica), the Prado (classical art with a heavy emphasis on Goya and Velazquez, plus Hieronymous Bosch), and the Thyssen (general European art). It may be hard to fit in all three, but they're all must-sees. In the middle of the three is the CaixaForum, a smaller museum which is *free* and has an incredible building and some interesting temporary exhibits.

On a nice day, go for a stroll in the Retiro (park). Wander around, but make sure you seek out the Palacio de Cristal before leaving if you don't bump into it on your own. There are plenty of little terrace bars where you can sit down for a coffee or beer and relax.

The Royal Palace is all right. If the weather's good, walk down the hillside behind and underneath and you'll discover a lovely park, much quieter and more secluded and more beautiful than the Retiro, called Campo del Moro. It's basically the Royal Palace's backyard.

If you like classic film, check out Madrid's terrific filmoteca, housed at the Cine Dore. It runs a constant cycle of historic art films - the March schedule will have films by Atom Egoyan and Robert Mulligan. All films are in their original language with subtitles. It might seem a waste to see a movie while traveling, but the Cine Dore is special - it's a historic theater and it always attracts an interesting crowd of film enthusiasts. Also, the films are cheap - there was a scandal when they recently raised their ticket prices over 1 euro.

See the Plaza Mayor and Plaza del Sol, but don't eat around there - overpriced and touristy. After dark, walk along the Gran Via for the ambience and energy.

Restaurants:
- One of the great regional cuisines of Spain is that of Galicia in the Northwest. It features a lot of shellfish, if you're into that. The best Galician restaurant in Madrid is Maceiras. There's always a line and they don't take reservations, but it's worth it. Pretty cheap too. The Galician wine is always very interesting: we order the Martin Codax.
- There's a famous little bar around the corner from Maceiras where you can have some tapas and beers called La Dolores. It has classic tile work on the exterior.
- Madrid has the only Thai restaurant in Europe to be certified by the Thai Ministry of Commerce (or so I read): Thaidy.
- A very nice high-end Mexican restaurant (where the Selma Hayek types eat when she's in Madrid): La Taqueria del Alamillo. Note that this is real Mexican, not the Tex-Mex you usually get in the States (not that there's anything wrong with that).

[Negative Lite]

More Madrid:

- Right next to the Plaza Mayor is the newly remodeled Mercado de San Miguel. What was once a normal neighborhood Spanish market has been reborn as a very upscale, gourmet foodcourt. You can grab a glass of wine and patrol the vendors. Pig out on oysters (the seafood in Madrid is surprisingly fresh) or a platter of ham (the famous jamon iberico) or Manchego cheeses. Quite crowded and with a nice ambience in the evening.
- One of Madrid's oldest restaurants is Lhardy, specializing in French cuisine with some Madrid specialties. It's a crazy expensive place to dine, but you can safely pop in to its storefront, where you can pour yourself a cup of consomme at an economical price.
- If you want a tapas experience, you can just bar-hop up and down Cava Baja street. Drop into any bar that strikes your fancy. For a full dinner, try the institution Casa Lucio or for similar fare in a more informal setting and at a cheaper price, try the offshoot Hijos de Lucio across the street. If you're out late on Cava Baja (after midnight) drop into one of the two excellent flamenco bars: La Solea at no. 35 or the other one (whose name escapes me) at no. 24. Each has a house guitarist in the corner and in true open-mike style any person sitting around is liable to break out singing. Exciting and unprogrammed, but doesn't really get swinging til the gypsies show up (after 2 in the morning).

If you've got extra time in Madrid, I recommend a day trip to Segovia, about an hour's train ride away. It has a beautiful castle, a world-famous Roman aqueduct, and some outstanding dining. Skip the overrated Candido and go to Bar Jose Maria (just off the Plaza Mayor) for an outrageous meal - try the broad beans (judiones) and lamb (cordero), and make sure to order the house red.

[matt_mcl]

Originally Posted by Quercus

Also, my advice is to try and avoid having a car when you're in the cities.

What Quercus said. In the big cities, public transit is insanely great by North American standards (Madrid = 300 km of metro for a city of 4 million) and in the small cities, everything is close enough together to walk.

[matt_mcl]

Originally Posted by Nava

Because it is The site has been holy since Roman times at least, according to some fragments they found when they were fixing part of the floor. It just keeps being re-co-opted. My mother joked it may become a bank next

For those who don't know it or only partly know it, they basically took the great mosque from the Moorish period and after the Reconquista turned it into a cathedral, plunking a Renaissance sanctuary right into the middle (but the complex is so huge that from many places you can barely see it). The king was furious, saying "You have built what you or others might have built anywhere, but you have destroyed something that was unique in the world," but its consecration as a cathedral probably saved it from destruction, in the end.

Seville cathedral was also built on the former site of the great mosque; the famous Giralda tower was the minaret. Both Seville and Cordoba cathedrals retain the orange tree patios from the mosques.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

Make certain to buy yourself a cheap (5 or 6 euro) bottle of cava (Spain's take on champagne) and drink it (well chilled) out of paper cups while sitting on a park bench. Watch entranced as stunning Spanish women go about their daily lives, all looking so sophisticated and fashonable........

Doing exactly this was one of the most enjoyable hours of my entire life.