Mid 70s Return of the King: Any good?

[handsomeharry]

At least, I think it was ROTK. I can't remember. The Avatar business brought it back to me. IIRC, the movie was filmed with real people, and painted over.
I am not a Tolkien fan, but I am curious if the movie was any good. So, was it?

Thanks,

hh

[Simplicio]

God no.

[Johnny L.A.]

Lord Of The Rings, Ralph Bakshi-style.

[squeegee]

You mean the Bakshi version. It was supposed to be part I of II. It encompassed all of the first book of the trilogy, and most of the second book. It wasn't very good, didn't go over well, and was never finished, although Rankin-Bass took a shot at doing so later, in full animated form, and that was pretty godawful as well (the voice work was from Scooby Doo voice-actors, just to give you a feel for it). ETA: the RB version was musical, including that time-honored classic, "Where There's a Whip There's a Way".

[astorian]

Ralph Bakshi made a "Lord of the Rings" movie that left off somewhere in the middle of "The Two Towers." He never got around to a sequel that would complete the story.

A few years later, Rankin-Bass (who had done a made-for-TV animated version of "The Hobbit") did a made-for-TV cartoon of "Return of the King."

Neither the Bakshi nor the Rankin-Bass version was very good by any means, but there were moments of fun in both (like the Orcs singing "Where There's A Whip, There's a Way" in the Rankin-Bass "Return of the King").

[Koxinga]

I thought this was going to be about Elvis in Hawaii.

[Johnny L.A.]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

God no.

It wasn't that bad!

I can't compare it to Hanna-Barbera's The Hobbit, because I never saw it. I just couldn't get past the Hanna-Barbera-ness of it. Bakshi's effort had better animation. Now, that's sure to raise some hackles. Nowadays people are used to very slick animation, anime, and CGI. Some consider rotoscoping 'cheating', but that was Backshi's style, and I liked it -- with some reservations, such as the appparent lack of effort in the battle scenes.

Obviously the film did not live up to fans' expectations. I get the impression that the fanboys (and -girls) expect every effort to be perfect in every way. Ain't gonna happen. Though I have it on DVD, I haven't watched it in a while; so I can't be too specific as to where I thought it failed. I mentioned some of the animation, which was a bit haphazard for the orcs and whatnot. But the biggest thing that bothered me was the way it ended.

SPOILER:

Backshi got about halfway through the book(s), and then said 'This war, like all wars, ended. The good guys won. La-de-da.' It just ended way too abruptly. And left out the last half of the story.

[Andy L]

Originally Posted by astorian

Ralph Bakshi made a "Lord of the Rings" movie that left off somewhere in the middle of "The Two Towers." He never got around to a sequel that would complete the story.

A few years later, Rankin-Bass (who had done a made-for-TV animated version of "The Hobbit") did a made-for-TV cartoon of "Return of the King."

Neither the Bakshi nor the Rankin-Bass version was very good by any means, but there were moments of fun in both (like the Orcs singing "Where There's A Whip, There's a Way" in the Rankin-Bass "Return of the King").

You had to mention "Where there's a Whip, There's a Way" didn't you? But truth to tell, as soon as I saw the title of the thread, the song sprung out of my subconscious to haunt me again...

[Johnny L.A.]

Originally Posted by Andy L

You had to mention "Where there's a Whip, There's a Way" didn't you? But truth to tell, as soon as I saw the title of the thread, the song sprung out of my subconscious to haunt me again...

From Bakshi's: 'Bread and breakfast in Isengard, understand?' still pops into my head.

[Ranchoth]

This one was actually Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings—although it actually includes the story from Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers—from 1978. Reviews can be found here and here, among other places.

And yes, much of the movie was produced via rotoscoping. A lot of animated works have done this, but few so brazenly (or badly) as Bakshi. The prologue isn't even rotoscoped...just shot in silhouette, and/or high contrast.

On the plus side, it features John Hurt as Aragorn. Unfortunately, he's playing an Aragorn who's not wearing any pants.

Anyway, the version by Bakshi, the animator behind films like Fritz the Cat, Wizards, Cool World, and Christmas in Tattertown, should also be remembered as being different from the animated versions of The Hobbit and Return of the King, which were produced by Rankin-Bass. Those two are admittedly cheesy in their own right, as well as musicals (!), but they have a hell of a lot more charm than the Bakshi version.

All in all, not a good movie. Though if you've willingly seen Plan 9 From Outer Space, you might like it for the laughs you'll get. Otherwise, your experience will be similar to siphoning kerosene with a silly straw.

[Johnny L.A.]

I stand corrected on the other producers. Rankin-Bass. Not Hanna-Barbera.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by astorian

Neither the Bakshi nor the Rankin-Bass version was very good by any means, but there were moments of fun in both (like the Orcs singing "Where There's A Whip, There's a Way" in the Rankin-Bass "Return of the King").

Heh, fair enough. It did have one decent scene. My brothers and I used to sing this when my Mom would make us do chores.

I actually didn't mind the animated Hobbit or ROTK too much, but I remember the acting and animation in the Bakshi LOTR as being almost unwatchable. And I was like...twelve when I saw it, so its not like I was coming at it with some ultra-sophisticated palate for such things.

[Bartman]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

God no.

Right on the first response.

But that is not to say it doesn't have some certain charm. And as others have mentioned you will never forget "Where there's a Whip, There's a Way" no matter how hard you try.

[squeegee]

Originally Posted by Johnny L.A.

It wasn't that bad!

Yes, I'm sorry, it was. Bad movies can have good moments, and yet remain bad.

Some of Bakshi's scenes were inspired, and Jackson's later LOTR film paid homage (or ripped them off wholesale, whatever), including the scene with the hobbits hiding from the Black Rider in the Shire, the Black Riders stabbing the empty beds in Bree, Frodo's first meeting Aragorn at the TSOTPP, probably others.

All of which doesn't make a good film, just good bits in a bad film.

[gladtobeblazed]

I might never have become a Tolkien fan if it weren't for The Hobbit and Return of the King. I watched those two when I was about 12 years old and I loved them. I sought out the books soon after.

[Face Intentionally Left Blank]

Originally Posted by Ranchoth

Anyway, the version by Bakshi, the animator behind films like Fritz the Cat, Wizards, Cool World, and Christmas in Tattertown, should also be remembered as being different from the animated versions of The Hobbit and Return of the King, which were produced by Rankin-Bass. Those two are admittedly cheesy in their own right, as well as musicals (!), but they have a hell of a lot more charm than the Bakshi version.
.

See how opinions vary? I liked the Bakshi version, but I couldn't make it thru the Rankin-Bass musical drek. I realize that Bakshi's LOTR wasn't what he wanted it to be, but I thought what he did with the rotoscoping was suitably creepy, and was a hell of a lot more interesting than the Saturday morning cartoon style of the other two. I wish he'd had the budget he needed to make the version he wanted, but I still liked it.

When I found it on VHS in the early 90's, I had to buy it on the spot.

[Chronos]

The cartoon Hobbit wasn't actually that bad. I did have an issue with two of the songs, though. First, There and Back Again was by no means the Greatest Adventure that'd Ever been Told. Lord of the Rings was greater, and the greatest adventure in Middle-Earth was probably Beren and Luthien going to recover one of the Silmarils from the Iron Crown of Morgoth.

Second, it really bugged me that they actually came up with a decent tune for "Far over Misty Mountains cold", but then went and had Gandalf narrate most of it, instead of singing it. And even if you absolutely must narrate it, shouldn't it be Thorin, not Gandalf?

[Koxinga]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Second, it really bugged me that they actually came up with a decent tune for "Far over Misty Mountains cold", but then went and had Gandalf narrate most of it, instead of singing it. And even if you absolutely must narrate it, shouldn't it be Thorin, not Gandalf?

Ooo, but John Huston intoning the arrival of Smaug sent chills down my back when I was in elementary school.

[FriarTed]

THE HOBBIT was pretty much an acclaimed TV event & IIRC got pretty good reviews at the time. Bakshi's LOTR was a big disappointment to fans & critics alike, as was ROTK but until Jackson, that was still all we had.

I will say that the cartoon ROTK did have some good moments which stand out to me- Sam's brief holding of the Ring, in which he was tempted to wield its power & rejected that temptation, and Frodo's "I do not choose to do that which I have come to do." I was 18 at the time & that was CHILLING!

It's just 90 minutes! Give it a try! Actually, the whole thing is on Youtube!

[MrDibble]

I own the animated Hobbit, but I'll never watch Bakshi's drek again, which should tell you my opinion.
Oddly enough, I really like Wizards, though.

[Icerigger]

When I was a kid this was magnificent, how can you not love those songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pekj...eature=related

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Chronos

The cartoon Hobbit wasn't actually that bad. I did have an issue with two of the songs, though. First, There and Back Again was by no means the Greatest Adventure that'd Ever been Told. Lord of the Rings was greater, and the greatest adventure in Middle-Earth was probably Beren and Luthien going to recover one of the Silmarils from the Iron Crown of Morgoth.?

Now you've done it....

The biggest problem with that song isn't the "The greatest adventure" part. It's the bit about how being a dreamer, not focusing on plain, practical stuff is bad directly contradicts the entire message of the book and movie:

..the man who's a dreamer
And never takes heed(?)
Who thinks of a world that is just make-believe
Will never know passion
Will never know pain
Will sit by the window and someday see rain(??)

Um...at the start of the story, Bilbo doesn't think of a world beyond his front door. He's not a dreamer. It takes the events of the book to wake him up and let him feel passion/pain. I don't k now if he ever sat by the window and someday saw rain or if that's a good or bad thing.

[Koxinga]

What the book actually said is one thing, and what its longhair fans of the late sixties interpreted/read into it could be quite another thing.

[teela brown]

For a full-on review of the entire film, describing why it is or isn't great, you can't beat this website:

Review of Bakshi's LOTR

Funny, funny stuff. I had forgotten about it until this thread, and now I have to read it all over again.

[RealityChuck]

Originally Posted by Johnny L.A.

Bakshi's effort had better animation. Now, that's sure to raise some hackles. Nowadays people are used to very slick animation, anime, and CGI. Some consider rotoscoping 'cheating', but that was Backshi's style, and I liked it -- with some reservations, such as the appparent lack of effort in the battle scenes.

I'm sure Bakshi had better animation. It's hard not to be better than Rankin-Bass.

But that didn't mean it was good animation. Backshi's animation never rose any higher than mediocre (though bombastic).

[Chimpsmack]

i've seen the RB RotK better than a dozen times. it was pretty hit and miss, but the voice acting was very well done imo (particularly by orson bean, jon huston, mcdowell and whoever did eowyn), and there were several scenes in the rankin-bass RotK that i felt were far superior to their counterparts in the PJ movie (even if only by virtue of leaving the source material unchanged), especially the crucial moments in the siege on minas tirith.

for example, the scene where gandalf waits to confront the witch king as grond smashes through the gates; gandalf unsure but steadfast, the witch-king riding in full of contempt and arrogance. imo, it's the single scene that shows more than any other how dire the situation at minas tirith had become - had that cock not crowed, the battle may have ended immediately, as no one, not even gandalf himself, expected that he would be able to drive off the witch-king (in the cartoon, anyway). the scene was cut from the PJ movie, and after watching it in the dvd extras, really seemed to lack in comparison

also the scene in which eowyn slays the witch-king and avenges theoden - imo, a masterfully written section of a masterpiece, and the rankin-bass adaptation has the benefit of leaving tolkein's dialogue untouched. the PJ scene cuts most of the dialogue, and changes

'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I shall smite you if you touch him.'

to the totally underwhelming

'I am no man!'

i think in comparison the scene really suffers as a result of the change. YMMV, but because of that, given the choice between the cartoon and the movie i'd probably rather watch the cartoon.

i'm also generally a fan of ralph bakshi - i like parts of most of his work. i just watched his Lord of the Rings again last week. like a lot of his work, he doesnt get it all quite right, and it's in the running for my least favorite bakshi movie, but i dont think its unwatchable by any means. of course, i'm a sucker for the sort of trippy rotoscoping effects used in some of the sequences, so YMMV on that too

[Airk]

Originally Posted by teela brown

For a full-on review of the entire film, describing why it is or isn't great, you can't beat this website:

Review of Bakshi's LOTR

Funny, funny stuff. I had forgotten about it until this thread, and now I have to read it all over again.

Dang! Someone beat me to this link!

Seriously though; I sortof grew up with the Rankin Bass stuff, and to this day I don't mind it, for all its ridiculous cheese (in much the same way that people who grew up with Star Blazers or Speed Racer or the like can still watch them, and those of us who didn't find them physically painful.). I saw the Bakshi film once on a rental, sometime around the age of 10 or 12, and for many years felt the only cool parts were the parts that I couldn't understand. The film was a train wreck, the animation was terrible (say what you like about the Rankin Bass productions, but at least the animation was A) Vaguely consistent, and B) A whole lot less 70s in style than the Bakshi's stuff.) and, well... heck, just read the link above. It says it better than I ever could.

I also tend to agree with Chimpsmack and others that the strongest point of both Rankin Bass productions is when they use dialogue verbatim from the books (Note: This is frequently the case in the Peter Jackson films as well. Though not always. *cough*GlowingGreenGaladriel*Cough*) - including the Eowyn and Gandalf scenes mentioned, and also a good deal of Denethor's dialogue.

[HorseloverFat]

Bakshi's version is at least watchable, especially for kids. I dont know a lot about the history of Bakshi's production, but there seems to be a point where they ran out of money and it shows. I mean, its not very good, but its not horribly unwatchable like Zardoz or anything.

[tdn]

I have to admit that I liked the Bakshi version. It was certainly not without its flaws (one or two of them), but at the time I was starving for a film version of the story, and I had a choice between that or nothing. (Or the horrible horrible cartoon version of RotK.) Yes, some parts were very silly. For instance, at the pass of Caradhras (sp?), Gandalf talks about how Aruman's [sic] arm has grown long. When he does this he makes a claw hand for just a little too long. It reminded me of a scene from Cheers where a crazy guy says "Do you ever imagine that you have a claw?" Just silly. And yes, Galadriel looks a little too much like a 70s pop singer. And the balrog was downright cuddly.

But parts of it were great, and I preferred some of the scenes over those of PJ's. I thought that Sam was perfect. The flight to the ford was awesome. Gimli was played for more than just comic effect. The score was great. (Anyone notice that Rosenman reused some of it in Star Trek IV?) Gollum was well done.

In the Rankin-Bass Hobbit, why oh why did Legolas's dad have to sound like Hans and/or Franz?

[Gagundathar]

Surfed around and found this which while somewhat off topic is pretty dang funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU&feature=fvw

[Airk]

Gollum did do a good job. Apparently so good that the guys who did the INFINITELY BETTER THAN ANY OF THE FILMS BBC Radio Play production a couple of years later got the same fellow (and the same guy for Boromir as well.).

As for the Bakshi being watchable, well, I suggest you check it again if you haven't seen it in a few years. The terribleness of it can be dulled by time. :P

[Sparky the Wonder Spirit]

Originally Posted by teela brown

For a full-on review of the entire film, describing why it is or isn't great, you can't beat this website:

Review of Bakshi's LOTR

Funny, funny stuff. I had forgotten about it until this thread, and now I have to read it all over again.

I don't know, I'm partial to The Agony Booth's review, myself.

Both reviews are FAR more entertaining than the actual movie.