Gandalf, if they were no "ordinary wolves"---then what were they?

[Wakinyan]

When "Caradhras had defeated them" the fellowship of the Ring turned southward, but unfortunately at night they are attacked by wolves. Or so it seemed. In short:

A wolf snarled and sprang towards them with a great leap. ... [Gandalf] lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. ... The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled.

But, the day after, "They looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. Not trace of the fight remained ..."

'It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. 'These were no ordinary wolves ...'*

So, what was it?

* Pages 284-285 in my edition.

[Kobal2]

A Warg.

ETA : in the Tolkien mythos, these are descendants of evil werewolves, that have degenerated to the point that they can't shift into man anymore. But they kept the intelligence, malevolence, and allegiance to Sauron.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Kobal2

A Warg.

ETA : in the Tolkien mythos, these are descendants of evil werewolves, that have degenerated to the point that they can't shift into man anymore. But they kept the intelligence, malevolence, and allegiance to Sauron.

I don't think the Perfesser's werewolves were shapeshifters. They were, rather, wolves inhabited by powerful, malicious spirits. I cannot prove that one of them survives to this day and, being much diminished, is now trading under the name Ann Coulter, but I am going to start a rumor to that effect anyway.

[Chronos]

Wargs leave bodies behind just like any other mortal creature. They may have werewolf blood somewhere in their ancestry, but it's running pretty thin. And even werewolves leave corpses: Carcharoth's corpse had to be cut open to retrieve Beren's hand and the Silmaril, after all.

[Just Some Guy]

Originally Posted by Wakinyan

'It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. 'These were no ordinary wolves ...'*

So, what was it?

Extraordinary wolves.

[kenobi 65]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

I don't think the Perfesser's werewolves were shapeshifters. They were, rather, wolves inhabited by powerful, malicious spirits. I cannot prove that one of them survives to this day and, being much diminished, is now trading under the name Ann Coulter, but I am going to start a rumor to that effect anyway.

Thou owest me a new keyboard, Skald, as this one has been baptized with tea.

[Ludovic]

Has Ann Coulter ever denied being a werewolf? A simple denial of this rumor would put it all to rest, is that too much to ask for?

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Wargs leave bodies behind just like any other mortal creature. They may have werewolf blood somewhere in their ancestry, but it's running pretty thin. And even werewolves leave corpses: Carcharoth's corpse had to be cut open to retrieve Beren's hand and the Silmaril, after all.

I don't think the idea is that the wolves' bodies vanished or spontaneously combusted.

Rather, that the surviving Wargs came back later, in the dead of night, to collect their dead.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Kobal2

I don't think the idea is that the wolves' bodies vanished or spontaneously combusted.

Rather, that the surviving Wargs came back later, in the dead of night, to collect their dead.

What a funny way to spell "ate."

[YogSosoth]

Middle Earth had werewolves?!?

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by YogSosoth

Middle Earth had werewolves?!?

Of the kind Skald noted, yes - malevolent spirits that took the forms of great wolves. Just like Ungoliant took the shape of a gigantic spider.

As far as shape-shifting goes, I seem to recall the young, boyish Sauron transforming into a great wolf in the Silmarillion. Not quite the stereotypical werewolf, but transformation nonetheless. It may be those other "werewolves" were of similar mien.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by YogSosoth

Middle Earth had werewolves?!?

Explicitly mentioned in the third and greatest book of the trilogy, The Silmarillion.

[Malacandra]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

What a funny way to spell "ate."

What a funny way to spell "eat".

[Chronos]

I don't think the idea is that the wolves' bodies vanished or spontaneously combusted.

Rather, that the surviving Wargs came back later, in the dead of night, to collect their dead.

That had never even occurred to me, actually. The next time I'm re-reading, I'll have to keep that possibility in mind. On the other hand, it says that not a trace of the battle remained, not just no trace of the wolves themselves: You'd expect that Aragorn, at least, would be able to find scuff-marks in the grass, and char spots, and the like. No trace at all sounds pretty supernatural to me.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Malacandra

What a funny way to spell "eat".

The usual threats.

[Chronos]

The usual threats.

Skald, you're getting lazy these days. Time was, you wouldn't even have "usual threats": You'd tailor-make a new one for every transgressor. What's the world coming to, anyway, when Skald the Rhymer can't even come up with new forms of poetic justice?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Skald, you're getting lazy these days. Time was, you wouldn't even have "usual threats": You'd tailor-make a new one for every transgressor. What's the world coming to, anyway, when Skald the Rhymer can't even come up with new forms of poetic justice?

What is "justice"?

[Bartman]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

What is "justice"?

That thing all those self righteous do gooders who invaded your volcanic lair a few years back were trying to bring you to. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[Bartman]

As to the wolves I always took them to be werewolves (of the spirits who take the forms of wolves type). Take a look at this more full quote:

When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left.
`It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. `These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!'

If they were wargs dragging off their companions for consumption, they would have not taken the time to carefully remove each arrow unharmed from their companions. Nor could they have done so without anyone noticing. Nope, these were something that disappears without a trace when slain. Spirits that have taken physical form, seems to be the best match.

On the other hand Aragorn (and the narrator) does directly name them as wargs... so what do I know?

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Bartman

As to the wolves I always took them to be werewolves (of the spirits who take the forms of wolves type). Take a look at this more full quote:

If they were wargs dragging off their companions for consumption, they would have not taken the time to carefully remove each arrow unharmed from their companions. Nor could they have done so without anyone noticing. Nope, these were something that disappears without a trace when slain. Spirits that have taken physical form, seems to be the best match.

On the other hand Aragorn (and the narrator) does directly name them as wargs... so what do I know?

Hmmm. You're probably right. Man, it's been too long a time since I last read the book.

A third possibility would be that the "dead" did what Wolverine does : regen, and when the CGI is over you hear the clink of the expelled bullet hitting the ground.

[Wakinyan]

Thanks for all the replies. Interesting and entertaining as always,.

[Sri Theo]

Originally Posted by Kobal2

A third possibility would be that the "dead" did what Wolverine does : regen, and when the CGI is over you hear the clink of the expelled bullet hitting the ground.

Did that really annoy anyone else? The bullet came out whole, so it must have penetrated his skull. Except his skull is unpenetrable so that makes no sense.

[kenobi 65]

Originally Posted by Sri Theo

Did that really annoy anyone else? The bullet came out whole, so it must have penetrated his skull. Except his skull is unpenetrable so that makes no sense.

Well, yeah, if his skull was impenetrable, then it should have, honestly, just bounced off, or only been lodged in the skin / muscles on his skull.

I chalk it up to dramatic license, to demonstrate Wolvie's healing factor.

[muldoonthief]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Skald, you're getting lazy these days. Time was, you wouldn't even have "usual threats": You'd tailor-make a new one for every transgressor. What's the world coming to, anyway, when Skald the Rhymer can't even come up with new forms of poetic justice?

No kidding. I'm imagining Skald puttering around the volcano lair, wearing his Evil Overlord headgear and shirt, but with pajama bottoms and slippers. The adamantium portals haven't been maintained for a while, so he just leaves them open and put in a screen door to keep the critters out. The vast refectories where his hordes of minions once dined are empty, and only Madge (who was looking for work after she lost her job at the middle school cafeteria) can be found there now, making Sloppy Joes with Mac & cheese for herself and the janitor.

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by kenobi 65

Well, yeah, if his skull was impenetrable, then it should have, honestly, just bounced off, or only been lodged in the skin / muscles on his skull.

I chalk it up to dramatic license, to demonstrate Wolvie's healing factor.

I think what Theo is trying to say is that the bullets should have shattered or at the very least scrunched on hitting Wolvie's impenetrable noggin'. Except in the movie, the bullet comes out pristine, like it hasn't even been fired.
It didn't bother me, but I did notice it too.

[Polycarp]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Has Ann Coulter ever denied being a werewolf? A simple denial of this rumor would put it all to rest, is that too much to ask for?

Personally, I would need to see the long-form vault record of her birth as a non-werewolf before I would be convinced.

[Polycarp]

The Gaurhoth of the Silmarillion are translated (by the Professor) as "werewolves", but are not explicitly described as shape-shifters -- though I would think that to be implicit in the definition of 'werewolf'. But if the Gaurhoth and the Wargs are explicitly equated, one the ancestor of the other, I'm unaware of it.

[TWDuke]

In the Silmarillion, werewolves are described as "fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he [Sauron] had imprisoned in their bodies." The plainest interpretation of that would be that there were originally two types of creatures: a disembodied, malevolent spiritual being; and a fearsome animal, possibly more akin to the now-extinct dire wolf than the more familiar gray wolf. The Wargs could be descended from the werewolves or the soulless beasts from which they were created. In either case, they would not be "ordinary" wolves. (Note that in Tolkien's world, it is possible for animals to possess human levels of intelligence and will without having souls.)

The use of the word "imprisoned" implies that the spirits did not enter the bodies willingly (although they could have been deceived) and could not change their form.

Of course, the Silmarillion as we know it is cobbled together from some of Tolkien's unpublished notes, with large chunks rewritten by others, so it's of questionable authority, unlike "The Lord of the Rings," which we can take as gospel, and "The Hobbit," which we can consider mostly true except for an occasional embellishment or emendation by the narrator.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Polycarp

The Gaurhoth of the Silmarillion are translated (by the Professor) as "werewolves", but are not explicitly described as shape-shifters -- though I would think that to be implicit in the definition of 'werewolf'. But if the Gaurhoth and the Wargs are explicitly equated, one the ancestor of the other, I'm unaware of it.

I think the Perfesser uses the term as he does deliberately. Remember, part of the conceit of the Silmarillion is that it's a translation of an ancient text, and such things are by their very nature often inspecific and seemingly misleading, as language changes over time. CF: the KJV using "witch" to mean "poisoner."

[The Tooth]

Originally Posted by Polycarp

Personally, I would need to see the long-form vault record of her birth as a non-werewolf before I would be convinced.

The date on her gravestone would be proof enough for me.

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by muldoonthief

...and only Madge (who was looking for work after she lost her job at the middle school cafeteria) can be found there now, making Sloppy Joes with Mac & cheese for herself and the janitor.

Didn't you hear? Skald let the janitor go in the last round of layoffs.

[TWDuke]

Dibs on the sloppy Joe.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Sauron on Wargs:

I actually designed my own race. Didn’t I tell you? I mean, it’s just some of the lesser evil Maiar incarnated into physical bodies, but still. They’re called “Wargs,” which is a very cool name I came up with after Carcharoth suggested it. Originally, I designed them as 400′ long giant black wolves with vicious red tentacles coming from their shoulders. They were kewl.

Melkor hated the design. He went on about resource allocations and production quotas — all the shit I tell him when I point out that Project Flying Fire-Breathing Monster is 12 millennia behind schedule and 800% over budget. Then he showed me his Warg redesign — they looked like some kind of big, mangy pig-dog. What the hell?

Finally, I got Melkor to agree that Wargs would be large, talking wolves, and that the Orcs would be able to use them as mounts. I’m proud of them — but the giant, tentacled Wargs were much cooler. (Tentacles are just really useful. I should grow some.)

http://www.sauronsblog.com/?p=140