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Old 02-08-2010, 04:19 PM
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How Effective A Weapon Was the V-2 Rocket?


From what I read, not very! The fact is , this rocket was expensive to produce, carried a very small warhead, and was not very accurate (it had a very crude guidance system).
Given the great expense, would the Germans have been better off if they had built Messerschmidt fighters instead?
As I said, for 1944, the V-2 was a technical marvel-but it inflicted very little damage on its targets (relative to the cost).
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:26 PM
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It was a terror weapon, not a precision guided system. As such it achieved what it set out to do, namely to terrorize the British population with a weapon that they had no active defense against (they could shoot down bombers and even V-1's, but nothing could touch the V-2's).

Could they have spent the money better by buying more conventional weapons systems? Yes and no. Certainly they could have bought more bombers or fighters (or put more funds into R&D for both), and gotten more of those weapons systems than they got V-2's, but they would still have been up against the issue of manpower...they didn't have enough (trained) warm bodies to effectively crew substantially more bombers than they were already producing, and by '44 they had been basically bled white on veteran crews. So, a fire and forget rocket that instilled fear in their enemies and (at least in theory) could potentially attack their morale and will to fight probably seemed a good trade off, even if it was pretty expensive.

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Old 02-08-2010, 04:59 PM
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In addition to the effect on morale, we'd need to figure in how many Allied resources were diverted to the task of taking out the V-2's launch and production sites.
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:04 PM
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From what I read, not very! The fact is , this rocket was expensive to produce, carried a very small warhead, and was not very accurate (it had a very crude guidance system).
You're confusing effective with efficient.

V-2 was a very effective weapon. It could do quite a lot of damage and was more than accurate enough to do its job - kill civilians and frighten people. V-2s were, in fact, every bit as accurate as British strategic bombers, and arguably MORE accurate.

What it was not was efficient. It was absurdly expensive.
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:07 PM
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when you have slave labor available then the cost is materials. By conquering most of Europe Hitler had all the production facilities, natural resources, and labor of the captured nations. Had he stayed out of Russia he could have dedicated all that material on V2's and jet fighters. In theory Hitler could bomb England continuously with no loss of life. If the Horten 2-29 had made it into production they would have had a 600 mph fighter with (4) 30mm cannons and a payload of 1000 lbs for bombs. It was a plywood constructed aircraft designed to be radar low observable.

Russia took a 14% loss of population from Hitler's second front. I think it would have been worse for Great Britain if the machinery and resources of the Russian front was converted to V1's, V2's and jet fighters.
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:15 PM
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They had a fairly big investment in "wonder weapons" as a propaganda tool, both to intimidate the enemy and to encourage their populace when things looked bleak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wunderwaffe

Can't find a cite right now but have read several accounts of how up to the very end, lots of Germans could be heard to be saying "The Fuehrer has a Secret Plan/Secret Weapon" up his sleeve. And, sort of, he did, just not soon enough, not effective enough, not able to be built in large enough numbers, to turn the larger tide.
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:33 PM
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V-2 was a very effective weapon. It could do quite a lot of damage and was more than accurate enough to do its job - kill civilians and frighten people. V-2s were, in fact, every bit as accurate as British strategic bombers, and arguably MORE accurate.
More accurate than a bomber?

Doesn't look like it. Accurate enough to hit a big city is about as good as it got for the V-2 (which was good enough for its purpose).

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What was the accuracy of the V-2? This question reduces to one of philosophy - if a missile misses the aim point by half the range, does that shot count against the missile's accuracy calculation or is it a failure, counted in the reliability calculation? Tests of prototype V-2's in 1943 indicated a 4.5 km CEP (circular error probable - the radius within which 50% of the shots impact). 100% of the shots fell within 18 km of the target. A radio beam guidance update system was introduced in December 1944, which in tests produced a 2 km CEP. In reality, in the campaign against Britain, 518 rockets were recorded as falling in the Greater London Air Defence Zone of 1225 fired, implying an average CEP of 12 km.

Part of this lack of accuracy was attributable to a skillful British disinformation campaign. Nazi agents in Britain were the only source of information to the Germans as to where the missiles actually hit. Most of these agents had been turned by British intelligence and were sending back false reports as to the impact points of the rockets. These false reports indicated that the missiles were going long and impacting beyond London. As a result of corrections due to this false information, the German average impact point moving farther and farther east as the campaign went on. The average impact point for the entire campaign ended up on the eastern edge of the Greater London Air Defence Zone.

Had accurate post-attack reports been available to the Germans, the CEP would have been more like 6 km, reinforcing Dornberger's claim that by the end of the campaign the missile was close to achieving its tested accuracy. Without the British disinformation campaign, the number of the Allied victims of the V-2 would have been more than doubled, demonstrating the effectiveness of that operation. However even at its best accuracy made the V-2 was hugely cost-ineffective. Its primary purpose could only be psychological, and in that it suffered in comparison to the V-1. Although the V-2 was ineffective as a weapon of war, the tremendous investment by the Nazis proved a gift to the Allies. The V-2 development and production program, as a proportion of gross national product, ranked with the American's Manhattan atom bomb program. After the war captured German V-2's were launched by the British, Americans, and Russians. Personnel and technology from the V-2 formed the basis for subsequent rocketry developments throughout the world.

SOURCE: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v2.htm
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:58 PM
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I love learning about things like the disinformation effort mentioned in Whack-a-Mole's excerpt. It may not be as dramatic as storming the beaches, but it saved lives.

Last edited by Oakminster; 02-08-2010 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:17 PM
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I love learning about things like the disinformation effort mentioned in Whack-a-Mole's excerpt. It may not be as dramatic as storming the beaches, but it saved lives.
You're probably aware of the book, but Cryptonomicon is a great read if you're into that sort of thing - and don't mind that it's fiction.
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:10 PM
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The other aspect is would they have been better off building Messerschmidt fighters. The answer is no- the 109 was already outdated. It was effectively a mid 30's design and was past its use by date.
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:13 PM
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when you have slave labor available then the cost is materials. By conquering most of Europe Hitler had all the production facilities, natural resources, and labor of the captured nations. Had he stayed out of Russia he could have dedicated all that material on V2's and jet fighters.
That would have helped if his enemies had only attacked him with airplanes, I guess.

The "gosh, Hitler could just have stayed out of Russia" line of thought is simply not reasonable. War with the Soviet Union was going to happen sooner or later. The Soviets hadn't built the world's largest armed forces just to hold parades.

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Doesn't look like it. Accurate enough to hit a big city is about as good as it got for the V-2 (which was good enough for its purpose).
Which is about as good as British strategic bombing ever got. Most of Bomber Command's bombs did not come within five kilometers of the target.
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:33 PM
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The other aspect is would they have been better off building Messerschmidt fighters. The answer is no- the 109 was already outdated. It was effectively a mid 30's design and was past its use by date.
Well, he might have been referring to the Me 262, but of course it had problems of its own.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:02 PM
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V-2 was a very effective weapon. It could do quite a lot of damage and was more than accurate enough to do its job - kill civilians and frighten people. V-2s were, in fact, every bit as accurate as British strategic bombers, and arguably MORE accurate.
But which one was more effective on its second mission?
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:24 AM
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This is been debated a lot at the Axis Forums, basically it comes down to it was a very good terror weapon and had it come earlier in the war it may have made a bit of a difference.

In the end it wouldn't have been enough to bring the British to the knees, the Brits would've adapted to being attacked, much the same way Iraq adapted when it was bombed by our smart bombs.

After the inital terror wears off you can cope with most forms of bombings. But had it come a lot earlier it could've incited a decent panic in the UK and who knows what would've happened then.
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:45 AM
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According to my father, who lived through it, the V1 was far more effective as a terror weapon. With the V2 you never knew it was coming; with the V1, you could hear it, and when its engine cut you then got seriously worried.
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Old 02-09-2010, 04:34 AM
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The V-1 and V-2 rockets—Hitler’s “vengeance weapons”—were indeed effective instruments of terror. In fact, my mother, to this day, still lives with some consequences that terror.

Mom was in her early twenties during WWll, living in Kent, England—part of “Bomb Alley”. When Nazi Germany turned its attention to sustained bombing (the Blitz) of Britain for ~9-months ’40 – ’41, she and her mother (father died during WWI, the result of contracting a rare and lethal infection skinning rabbits as a cook in the army) were bombed out of three houses. On the third occasion, my mother and grandmother sustained serious injury and their dog, Buddy, was killed. Luckily a forth explosion was averted when the bomb—landing directly on their roof, it would have been fatal—proved to be a dud (rendered harmless by the US Army, we still have that bomb casing). The nighttime air-raid sirens, black-outs, scrambling for shelter and lit-up skies were very terrifying to the English civilians, to be sure.

But, as bad as the Luftwaffe bombings were, they did not compare to terror evoked by the V-1 (Doodlebug/Buzzbomb) and V-2 rocket campaigns Hitler thrust upon the English citizenry later in the war (’44-’45). According to mom, the rockets had a very distinct, hellish sound. However, the real terror wasn’t hearing the sound; it was anticipating when the sound would stop. "We’d huddle together in the dark, listening to the whir, whir, whir of an approaching buzzbomb and just pray that it didn’t stop when it was directly overhead—that meant it was out of fuel and was coming down to earth, fast and furious". Mornings after raids, they had the grim chore of going through the neighborhood, assessing the damage and tallying the dead. On one occasion mom’s neighbor, the mailman, was blown into the next block…and a little into the block after that.

Thankfully, my dad, US Army Air Corps, swept mom off her feet and gave her something bright to think about during these times of darkness. They got married in Orpington at the end of the war. Mom’s favorite wedding gift: her brother Jack was released from a German POW camp just in time to attend the ceremony and give her away. Thanks to the not-quite 5-Star accommodations offered by his couple of years vacation at the camp, he was about 50lbs underweight and prematurely white haired, but the wedding photos show a proud man in a baggy suit with a very toothy smile.

It helps a lot to thwart the goal of terror campaigns if the affected citizenry has pluck and determination, and the English in WWll had plenty of both. Say’s mom, “during the raids, in the dark, we’d sing, dance and tell jokes—usually at Hitler’s expense”. But, no matter how much pluck and determination you have, some terror seeps into your mind and doesn’t let go. When I was young, in the ‘60’s, I used to wonder why my mother would always duck to the ground, cover her head and shake during thunderstorms. Later, my dad told me it’s because the thunder claps and lightening remind her of the bombs and rockets she endured. At 89, he still comforts her during storms.

Here’s a good account of doodlebug and the rockets.
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Old 02-10-2010, 03:41 PM
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According to my father, who lived through it, the V1 was far more effective as a terror weapon. With the V2 you never knew it was coming; with the V1, you could hear it, and when its engine cut you then got seriously worried.
Quartz, I (and I’m sure others) would be interested in learning more about your father’s wartime experiences with the V-1 and V-2 (and perhaps other WW-ll recollections), if you care to share. Sounds like he and me mum may have some shared memories (memories that are fading fast from our collective consciousness). How old was he and where did he live in ‘44/’45, for starters?
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Old 02-10-2010, 04:41 PM
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Quartz, I (and I’m sure others) would be interested in learning more about your father’s wartime experiences with the V-1 and V-2 (and perhaps other WW-ll recollections), if you care to share. Sounds like he and me mum may have some shared memories (memories that are fading fast from our collective consciousness). How old was he and where did he live in ‘44/’45, for starters?
My father had a quiet war. He lived in West London. He had one too-close encounter with a V1 - he was near a tree on a hill and a V1 went underneath the branches and went on to hit a cinema. He was just too young to fight (and went into shipbuilding so didn't do National Service). His home had minor bomb damage - I've seen the claim form. His parents, my grandparents, tried to help two Jews escape by 'employing' them as maids, though that failed (obviously the employment would have ceased the moment they arrived). That's about it, really.
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Old 02-13-2010, 09:40 AM
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"We’d huddle together in the dark, listening to the whir, whir, whir of an approaching buzzbomb and just pray that it didn’t stop when it was directly overhead—that meant it was out of fuel and was coming down to earth, fast and furious".
No intent to detract from your mum's horrific experience, but the quote above contains a widely held misconception:

Contrary to legend, the V-1 did not crash when/because it ran out of fuel. The V-1 had a fairly clean form and would have glided quite some way after running out of fuel. The guidance system would have tried to maintain altitude rather than airspeed, so it would soon stall, but if it quit overhead, you'd have been safe.

The engine DID, in fact, quit just before and above impact on the early ones, but not due to exhaustion of the fuel supply. This was a design flaw that was later corrected. The intent of the design was that the engine would remain running, and they would power-dive into the target, and the later ones did that. But by this time the "crashes because it ran out of fuel" belief was so widely held that there was no hope of it changing.

Pulse jets are fuel hogs, and become worse when their intake valves wear...and the Argus valves typically were very near end of life when the reached the target. It would have been difficult to hit England, much less London or Kent by relying on an empty tank to stop the bombs. Of course extra fuel meant less payload, so there was not much fuel remaining at the target, and a few surely did run dry before they got there.

How it actually worked:

There was a small propeller that ran geared mechanical counter that counted downward to the target: An air driven odometer if you will. When this hit zero, the V-1 was placed into a hard dive. This same mechanism delayed the arming of the bomb for some miles so as to reduce the danger from a failed launch. I'm not sure the reason the engine quit, but it may be that this hard "pushover" maneuver threw the remaining fuel to the top of the tank, and allowed the engine to suck air long enough to kill it. Pulse jets are quite fussy in this regard.

These counters were subject to manufacturing tolerances, and compensation for winds had to be made based on weather reports, so while it was superior to trying to trying to predict fuel consumption, the mechanism was still quite far from accurate...bad enough to make the "fuel" myth nearly plausible.

Last edited by Kevbo; 02-13-2010 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:08 AM
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Mass producing a standard weapon could have made a difference, hard to tell. Probably more so where tanks were concerned.

Why is this question in great debates? It's not as it the moral dimensions are in doubt.

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The Soviets hadn't built the world's largest armed forces just to hold parades.
Well, you say that now, but wasn't stalin very surprised when he was actually attacked by his fellow dictator? And he'd killed most of resourceful commanders because he was a paranoid murderer.

From what I've been told, the V1 was much less effective and could be taken out. But there had been some bad choices delaying the devellopment of the V2, which was something completely different.
I was also told more people died producing these rockets than got hit by them.
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:12 AM
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Thanks for the added illumination, Kevbo. I figured I may have conflated some of my mom’s buzzbomb recollections with my own, likely incomplete, understanding of how it worked. So, I went back to my source (not difficult, my parents live next door) and asked for additional clarification. Result: the MOA of the V-1, as you describe, was indeed more complicated than it simply running out of fuel and dropping. However, at least in my parent's experience, they didn’t glide very far after the engine sound stopped.

Dad (364 Fighter Group, 383rd Fighter Squadron, 8th Air Force): “We saw a number of doodlebugs fly over Honington airfield, and a couple of explosions. They made a woo woo woo sound as they approached; when the engine sound stopped, they’d dive and explode. The ones I saw didn’t come straight down, but they almost did—it was a pretty steep nose dive. Anybody suggesting they’d glide a long distance after the engine cut off is a horses’ petootie" (just kidding, he didn’t say that ). "Yeah, you’d be nervous until it passed by, it was a real terror bomb. The V-2, a true rocket, was more powerful, but not as bad—it went up and came straight down, you didn’t know it was coming and you wouldn't know what hit you."

Mom: “The buzzbombs (“buzzbomb” to mom; “doodlebug” to dad)were dreadful; we knew we weren’t safe until we heard them pass overhead. It was a buzzbomb that killed our neighbor, the mailman. I never watched one dive to the ground, but when the whir whir whir sound stopped, the explosion came pretty quick afterward.When we were staying with family on Kynaston Road (this story's new to me, but verified by dad), a V-2 rocket hit close by, killing our chickens and a neighbor girl. It cracked our house completely in half, top and bottom (I think this article refers to the incident mom recalls).

Learned another telling tidbit from my dad today, too: "The worst part of the war for your mother was when she was hit in the head with shrapnel and they had to shave off her hair." Mom: "I was really embarrassed about losing my hair, but at least it grew back before our wedding."

Here's a pamphlet that I scanned from my dad's "His Service Record" memorabilia book, describing the V-1 in good detail:
Cover
Cutaway (click to enlarge)
Description
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:58 AM
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There's no question that the V-1 and V-2 caused meaningful death and destruction to the civilian population. But I think it can be questioned whether these made it an effective weapon. I've read plenty that said the result was to further harden the attitudes of the British citizenry and make it less likely that the war would end short of absolute German defeat.
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Old 02-14-2010, 12:06 PM
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The other aspect is would they have been better off building Messerschmidt fighters. The answer is no- the 109 was already outdated. It was effectively a mid 30's design and was past its use by date.
Maybe spending the resources on this would have been more to the point. (I've probably seen more takes on this in radio-control magazines than actually flew during WW2...)
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Old 02-14-2010, 01:52 PM
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The rockets may have been fine examples of terror weapons, but since when have terror weapons ever been effective? Indiscriminate submarine warfare had a non-negligible impact on the quantity of goods shipped, sure, but the primary goal was to scare away all shipping. Due to its inaccuracy and inability to really do otherwise, the large bulk of the strategic bombing of WW2 on both sides was aimed at population centers, supposedly to demoralize the people. Dresden was burned to the ground. Rolling Thunder in Vietnam, terrorists in Munich, terrorists in Ireland, terrorists in Israel, terrorists in the USA, all completely unsuccessful at doing anything but hardening the will of the targets against those perpetrating the attacks.

Terror attacks are a dead-end from a strategic perspective with one single distinct exception. Terror worked just once, when cities were bathed in nuclear fire and the threat of terror escalated to the threat of total annihilation. This was the real purpose of the Vergeltungswaffe, for an eventual V3 or V4 to turn London & Moscow into mushroom clouds. The V1 and V2 as they were, were inconsequential nothings in the strategic view, not worth their resources, but give them a few more years, or a slight rearranging of scientific progress, and they'd have changed the outcome of history entirely.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:05 PM
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Old 02-14-2010, 03:58 PM
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Terror attacks are a dead-end from a strategic perspective with one single distinct exception. Terror worked just once, when cities were bathed in nuclear fire and the threat of terror escalated to the threat of total annihilation. This was the real purpose of the Vergeltungswaffe, for an eventual V3 or V4 to turn London & Moscow into mushroom clouds. The V1 and V2 as they were, were inconsequential nothings in the strategic view, not worth their resources, but give them a few more years, or a slight rearranging of scientific progress, and they'd have changed the outcome of history entirely.
I disagree. If you scaled up the production of the V1 it was the perfect stand-off weapon to wipe a city off the map. It's just a matter of numbers and better allocation of resources. Take the labor that goes into building a bomber that carrys 8,000 lbs of bombs and convert it to building an 1800 lb bomb with wings on it. The engine in a V1 was vastly simpler in construction in comparison to a single radial engine for a bomber. It could be made using unskilled labor. The wings of the V1 only had to be engineered for a single use and were made out of plywood. The fuel used to deliver it is far less than what it would take to deliver the same tonnage of bombs in one direction and that is more than halved by the lack of a need for a return trip.

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Old 02-14-2010, 04:38 PM
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Given enough production, they could V1 London into a pile of rubble. What would that achieve, though? It would be a symbolic victory, but it would be unlikely to kill any critical leadership, since there's plenty of warning of inbounds. It wouldn't affect war production much, and it would be unlikely to cause any capitulation by the populace, instead inspiring an even greater desire for revenge and justice. Even producing the enormous amount of V1s to wipe out several specific cities wouldn't be enough on its own. The atomic bombs weren't successful because they gutted two cities, they were successful because they conveyed the threat of gutting EVERY city. V1s don't do that, even in vast quantities.

It's not that a V1 is notably worse of a weapon than WW2 era bombers, it's that the bombers weren't particularly effective either.

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Old 02-14-2010, 05:30 PM
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Given enough production, they could V1 London into a pile of rubble. What would that achieve, though? It would be a symbolic victory, but it would be unlikely to kill any critical leadership, since there's plenty of warning of inbounds. It wouldn't affect war production much, and it would be unlikely to cause any capitulation by the populace, instead inspiring an even greater desire for revenge and justice. Even producing the enormous amount of V1s to wipe out several specific cities wouldn't be enough on its own. The atomic bombs weren't successful because they gutted two cities, they were successful because they conveyed the threat of gutting EVERY city. V1s don't do that, even in vast quantities.

It's not that a V1 is notably worse of a weapon than WW2 era bombers, it's that the bombers weren't particularly effective either.
they had a range of 150 miles which I'm sure could have been extended without much effort so the effective range is 100 miles inland without modification. It was also a weapon that could be launched from bombers so they could drive them along the coast and release them without engaging fighters.

It's not the end-all of weapons but it could have been used more effectively given he simplicity of construction. It was so ridiculously easy to make compared to any other weapon.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:18 AM
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The rockets may have been fine examples of terror weapons, but since when have terror weapons ever been effective? Indiscriminate submarine warfare had a non-negligible impact on the quantity of goods shipped, sure, but the primary goal was to scare away all shipping. Due to its inaccuracy and inability to really do otherwise, the large bulk of the strategic bombing of WW2 on both sides was aimed at population centers, supposedly to demoralize the people. Dresden was burned to the ground. Rolling Thunder in Vietnam, terrorists in Munich, terrorists in Ireland, terrorists in Israel, terrorists in the USA, all completely unsuccessful at doing anything but hardening the will of the targets against those perpetrating the attacks.
I wouldn't say completely unsuccessful in the Irish context, but that it is too much of a hijack to get into here.
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:18 PM
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When the war was finished numerous senior German Generals were collected together at a British internment camp in the British isles. Unknown to them the entire camp was bugged with hidden microphones to gather evidence for use in the Nuremberg trials. Such camps were known by the acronym CSDIC and Maj General Dornberger was sent to CSDIC camp 11.

There he was recorded between 2-7 August 1945 discussing with other Generals, German work to develop the atomic bomb. He also disclosed that Hitler told him he had always intended the V-2 to carry more than just a ton of high explosives.

A factory in Breslau was said by a former forced labourer who worked there, to be converting both V-1 and V-2 rockets for special warheads including nuclear and nerve gas. The odd thing is that by October 1944 Germany had a vast stockpile of Tabun-b nerve gas but this was never used by the V-2.

On another topic

Twelve dismantled V-2 rockets were shipped to Djakarta by U-219 arriving in November 1944. A doctor Yamada travelling with the rockets created a V-2 production plant at the Mukden Arsenal in the city now called Shenyang in Manchuria. This factory was overrun by the Soviets in September 1944.

Another interesting
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:39 PM
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This thread brings to mind something I read by Arthur C. Clark. He was writing about how at one point during the war he was in New York for some reason and hapened to be with another author who had just written an essay for Analog? about how the V bombs were just German propaganda and couldn't exist because they would be a massive waste of resources for the Nazis. Before he'd traveled Mr. Clark had been told that he wasn't allowed to talk about the bombing for morale reasons (I belive he was an army officer at the time), so the best he could do was suggest that his friend recheck his assumptions.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:48 PM
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His parents, my grandparents, tried to help two Jews escape by 'employing' them as maids, though that failed (obviously the employment would have ceased the moment they arrived). That's about it, really.
Would you please explain that?

Thanks.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:13 PM
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This thread brings to mind something I read by Arthur C. Clark. He was writing about how at one point during the war he was in New York for some reason and hapened to be with another author who had just written an essay for Analog? about how the V bombs were just German propaganda and couldn't exist because they would be a massive waste of resources for the Nazis. Before he'd traveled Mr. Clark had been told that he wasn't allowed to talk about the bombing for morale reasons (I belive he was an army officer at the time), so the best he could do was suggest that his friend recheck his assumptions.
Amazing.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:51 PM
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When the war was finished numerous senior German Generals were collected together at a British internment camp in the British isles. Unknown to them the entire camp was bugged with hidden microphones to gather evidence for use in the Nuremberg trials. Such camps were known by the acronym CSDIC and Maj General Dornberger was sent to CSDIC camp 11.

There he was recorded between 2-7 August 1945 discussing with other Generals, German work to develop the atomic bomb. He also disclosed that Hitler told him he had always intended the V-2 to carry more than just a ton of high explosives.

A factory in Breslau was said by a former forced labourer who worked there, to be converting both V-1 and V-2 rockets for special warheads including nuclear and nerve gas. The odd thing is that by October 1944 Germany had a vast stockpile of Tabun-b nerve gas but this was never used by the V-2.

On another topic

Twelve dismantled V-2 rockets were shipped to Djakarta by U-219 arriving in November 1944. A doctor Yamada travelling with the rockets created a V-2 production plant at the Mukden Arsenal in the city now called Shenyang in Manchuria. This factory was overrun by the Soviets in September 1944.
Since your claims, without corroboration, of Germany's nuclear development has been called into serious question in another thread, I think we can mostly ignore what you say here. I know I will.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:11 AM
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Since your claims, without corroboration, of Germany's nuclear development has been called into serious question in another thread, I think we can mostly ignore what you say here. I know I will.
Just one thread? You've (luckily) missed out. His 10 posts to this message board have been bumping no less than 4 zombie threads with the same nonsense about the Nazis having nukes.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:08 AM
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Would you please explain that?
Read this thread.

It does not end well.
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:01 AM
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Just one thread? You've (luckily) missed out. His 10 posts to this message board have been bumping no less than 4 zombie threads with the same nonsense about the Nazis having nukes.
This is Be Kind to Zombies Week, isn't it?
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:36 AM
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According to the wiki article, more forced labourers died producing the V2 than the number of people killed by the 3,000 rockets fired. It also says that the V weapons programs were more expensive than the Manhatten Project.
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:46 AM
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I had heard that Germany was also working on an anti-aircraft missile(Wasserfall?) that used similar design principles as the V-1 and V-2. Some people speculated that if the Germans focused on developing reliable AA missiles it would have had a bigger impact on them in the war.

Sure V-2s were terrifying- the ability to level a city block in an enemy city with no warning. But missiles used to destroy actual military assets (bombers, in this case) just seems more practical. Look at how devastating SAMs were to the US air force in Vietnam- they accounted for a huge number of aircraft shot down. I wonder how much more difficult the bombing campaign of Germany would have been if they had the technology to shoot down our bombers with missiles?
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:49 PM
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A factory in Breslau was said by a former forced labourer who worked there, to be converting both V-1 and V-2 rockets for special warheads including nuclear and nerve gas. The odd thing is that by October 1944 Germany had a vast stockpile of Tabun-b nerve gas but this was never used by the V-2.
In the book Day of Battle by Rick Atkinson, he talks about this. Basically, the Western Allies were prohibited from using chemical weapons until the Germans used them...and the Western Allies accumulated large stockpiles ready to use in case the Germans did use them.

The Germans knew this and so didn't use these weapons.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:11 PM
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According to the wiki article, more forced labourers died producing the V2 than the number of people killed by the 3,000 rockets fired. It also says that the V weapons programs were more expensive than the Manhatten Project.
To us, that sounds like a tragedy, but to the Nazis, that was a bonus.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:20 PM
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More accurate than a bomber?

Doesn't look like it. Accurate enough to hit a big city is about as good as it got for the V-2 (which was good enough for its purpose).
Also pretty much how accurate Allied strategic bombing campaigns were, I'm afraid. Between altitude, wind, ducking flak & close defence aircraft, haphazard navigation... bombs (or paratroopers, for that matter) landed pretty much wherever. Even more so at night, when pilots got all confused about geography on top of all previous factors.
The difference is that the Allies had a metric shitton of bombs and bombers to send in day in, day out ; while Germany had an imperial drachm of V2s to launch at any given time. Which allowed the former the luxury of the more effective "flattening the whole area in a 10 mile radius and expecting the actual target to get statistically ploughed somewhere along the way" strategy.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:21 PM
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To us, that sounds like a tragedy, but to the Nazis, that was a bonus.
I don't know if we are talking about slaves that dig tunnels or slaves that have some skill in assembly and are difficult to replace.
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:43 PM
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Since your claims, without corroboration, of Germany's nuclear development has been called into serious question in another thread, I think we can mostly ignore what you say here. I know I will.
I find mostly that ignorant people ignore me...



Not that I suspect you can be bothered to do the reading or research necessary to have any authority on the subject, however those who can and do will be familiar with ULTRA decrypts relating V-2 Rockets being loaded on U-219 in France before she sailed for Djakarta in August 1944.

Others who will have read the US Navy Intelligence (ONI) Report: "German Technology Transfer to Japan, a survey" dated June 15, 1945 will be interested in it's report of V-2 production in Manchuria.

I am so glad you are going to ignore my reply because it would be so tiresome having to respond to you Musicat.
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:52 AM
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I find mostly that ignorant people ignore me...
Actually most people ignore you due to your blinding ignorance on the topics you discuss. From your absurd insistence that Nazi Germany had nuclear weapons to claims that Japan had a viable nuclear weapons program to your claim that Nagasaki and Hiroshima had no effect on Japans decision to surrender to your claim that it was the Soviet occupation of such Japanese nuclear research facilities that there were in Korea on August 22, 1945 was the real reason for Japan's surrender when Japan had already broadcast the Imperial Rescript on surrender on August 15th to your reliance on cites from David Irving, a notorious Holocaust denier and known liar who has "deliberately distorted and wilfully mistranslated documents, consciously used discredited testimony and falsified historical statistics" to your repeated references to" A previously classified US Navy intelligence report entitled, “Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb” dated 19 August 1945, had attached to it the affidavit of a German pilot Hans Zinsser." which when goggled is only found on conspiracy sites such as whale.to, abovetopsecret.com, and something entitled "'Secret Societies Threaten to Take Over America: The Rise of the 4the Reich" by J. Marrs to your reference to a document entitled “Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb,” issued by COMNAVEU London on 25 January 1946 by Captain R.F. Hickey, USN. The file location in US National Archives is NARA/RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c. “Top Secret Naval Attache Reports 1944-1947” which would be a rather odd temporary career detour for the actual Captain R.F. Hickey, USN to undertake as he had no experience or expertise in such matters, having ended WW2 in the Pacific as the CO of the aircraft carrier USS Hancock and was commander, Carrier Division 5 five years later during the Korean War it's hardly surprising nobody takes you remotely seriously.
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:22 PM
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To us, that sounds like a tragedy, but to the Nazis, that was a bonus.
It also shows how both Arthur Clarke and his friend were right in the incident recalled by Reverend Meade. Considering labor in the way most societies and governments do -- at the most basic level, people who you generally want to be able to go home when the job was done -- the V1 and V2 weren't worth it. But the Nazis weren't considering these laborers in that manner* and so the V1 and V2 were worth it from their perspective.

*Understatement of the century.
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:37 PM
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Not that I suspect you can be bothered to do the reading or research necessary to have any authority on the subject, however those who can and do will be familiar with ULTRA decrypts relating V-2 Rockets being loaded on U-219 in France before she sailed for Djakarta in August 1944.
What are the implications of this? Were they delivered? Were they used? Did they change the outcome of the war?

You give (without citing or linking to sources) official-sounding document names, and then hint darkly that they have some meaning.

Almost no nations in human history were as thoroughly beaten as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. As far as I can see, your claims so far amount to the equivalent of saying "Despite being completely, utterly crushed in almost every way, these two countries secretly possessed a limited means to fight back, but chose not to use it and let themselves be crushed anyway."

If you mean something more dramatic than your abstract hints and sotto voce mutterings, please come out and state a thesis. Something more interesting than "I have secret knowledge you don't," if you can.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:08 PM
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Correction the proper title to the US Intelligence report of transfer of technical aid to Japan was:

German Technical Aid to Japan a Survey,” dated June 15 1945, currently held by Combined Arms Research Library, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, USA (item 3-1695-00561-5885)

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps71cc7bb9.gif

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps69c6e316.gif

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps9f7029ae.gif
  #49  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:13 PM
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What are the implications of this? Were they delivered? Were they used? Did they change the outcome of the war?

You give (without citing or linking to sources) official-sounding document names, and then hint darkly that they have some meaning.

Almost no nations in human history were as thoroughly beaten as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. As far as I can see, your claims so far amount to the equivalent of saying "Despite being completely, utterly crushed in almost every way, these two countries secretly possessed a limited means to fight back, but chose not to use it and let themselves be crushed anyway."

If you mean something more dramatic than your abstract hints and sotto voce mutterings, please come out and state a thesis. Something more interesting than "I have secret knowledge you don't," if you can.
I find your musings very amusing... I am simply pointing out that the history of WW2 is contradicted several times by facts which are concealed.

Intelligence files recount matters which one cannot learn from conventional history books. If you lack a sense of wonder about that then you must live a very dull existence.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:16 PM
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Actually most people ignore you due to your blinding ignorance on the topics you discuss. From your absurd insistence that Nazi Germany had nuclear weapons to claims that Japan had a viable nuclear weapons program to your claim that Nagasaki and Hiroshima had no effect on Japans decision to surrender to your claim that it was the Soviet occupation of such Japanese nuclear research facilities that there were in Korea on August 22, 1945 was the real reason for Japan's surrender when Japan had already broadcast the Imperial Rescript on surrender on August 15th to your reliance on cites from David Irving, a notorious Holocaust denier and known liar who has "deliberately distorted and wilfully mistranslated documents, consciously used discredited testimony and falsified historical statistics" to your repeated references to" A previously classified US Navy intelligence report entitled, “Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb” dated 19 August 1945, had attached to it the affidavit of a German pilot Hans Zinsser." which when goggled is only found on conspiracy sites such as whale.to, abovetopsecret.com, and something entitled "'Secret Societies Threaten to Take Over America: The Rise of the 4the Reich" by J. Marrs to your reference to a document entitled “Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb,” issued by COMNAVEU London on 25 January 1946 by Captain R.F. Hickey, USN. The file location in US National Archives is NARA/RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c. “Top Secret Naval Attache Reports 1944-1947” which would be a rather odd temporary career detour for the actual Captain R.F. Hickey, USN to undertake as he had no experience or expertise in such matters, having ended WW2 in the Pacific as the CO of the aircraft carrier USS Hancock and was commander, Carrier Division 5 five years later during the Korean War it's hardly surprising nobody takes you remotely seriously.
So if you don't take me seriously it is amusing that you expend such huge efforts responding to me and telling me how much you are ignoring me. ha-ha
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