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  #1  
Old 02-09-2010, 08:49 PM
No Wikipedia Cites No Wikipedia Cites is offline
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Barrington Chadsworth IV: Upper class American name? Why? How?

IN a recent Tom Tomorrow comic, he mentions the name "Barrington Chadsworth IV" as an example of an American "WASP" ivy-league, upper crust name. I have seen names like this before, usually in movies.

http://www.credoaction.com/comics/20...polt-thickens/

Question: What is with these type of names? Are these for real? Do they signify "upper class" status all over the country? Or just the Northeast? Do our well-bred friends in England and Europe have the same type of names?

It seems these names have similarities in that 1) they use a surname as a given name, (such as "Barrington"), and then the entire name is reused for as many generations as possible (Barrington Chadsworth III, IV, ad inf.)

So, is this some way to separate their Ivy-league children from the rest of us slumdogs named Jimmy and Janie? If it is, why doesn't the Nobility of England use similar surnames-as-given-names?

And for that matter, why did the American Ivy leaguers use this naming convention, (if in fact they did), when the English/UK monarchs themselves, the veritable height of Anglican class, never seem to name their children like this?

Never heard of a King Barrington before.

Last edited by No Wikipedia Cites; 02-09-2010 at 08:51 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-09-2010, 08:51 PM
samclem samclem is online now
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Just offering that "xxx-ington" "xxx-worth" as a name is pretty much the stereotype.
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  #3  
Old 02-09-2010, 09:11 PM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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For what it's worth, all of these name-elements originally derive from Old English placenames, so placename > surname > given name and/or stereotypical uppercrust names.

-ing-: associated with / called after [Old English name in previous syllable(s)]
-ton (OE tūn): farmstead, village, manor, estate
-worth: enclosure, enclosed settlement.
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:15 PM
Bijou Drains Bijou Drains is offline
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In the book Freakanomics they mention how first names tend to move down in social class. Upper class people use first names but once they notice that lower class people use those names they start using a different set of first names.
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:21 PM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
In the book Freakanomics they mention how first names tend to move down in social class. Upper class people use first names but once they notice that lower class people use those names they start using a different set of first names.
Which is why there are no upper-class people with names like Elizabeth, Charles, or William today.

(In other words, I question the premise.)

Names certainly have trends: old names and name patterns are retired, or revived, and new ones are created. I'm sure those trends vary by class. But especially if those names are tied to religious or historical figures, I doubt if the upper class abandons them just because the lower class adopts them. I haven't read Freakanomics: do the authors give stats to support this?
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  #6  
Old 02-09-2010, 09:49 PM
Argent Towers Argent Towers is offline
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Here are some of the most aristocratic English surnames circa 1610: Carey, Clifford, Cobham, Compton, Dudley, Hatton, Herbert, Howard, Lee, Manners, Neville, Percy, Radcliffe, Russell, Sackville, Scrope, Sidney, Somerset, Scudamore, Stanley, Talbot.

That's about as "old money" as you can possibly get, as all those names belong to landed nobility with close ties to the royal family.

It seems to me that the surname as forename thing is mostly an American phenomenon.
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  #7  
Old 02-09-2010, 10:08 PM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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That name to me would signify "wanna-be." It's right up there with the Lexus and the logo-covered handbag.

P.S. Scrope? Bwaaaa ha ha haaaaa! ! !

Last edited by TruCelt; 02-09-2010 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:15 PM
Harriet the Spry Harriet the Spry is offline
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That name to me would signify "wanna-be." It's right up there with the Lexus and the logo-covered handbag.
What makes it different is the IV. You don't get to be "the fourth" without a level of family stability that isn't consistent with the logo-covered handbag. Also, for the true upper crust, those actually are their family names and the ancestors actually accomplished something worthy of respect. In the wannabe scenario, the names are picked because they sound good or belonged to someone in a movie (or on a soap opera - gah!)

Yes, the authors of Freakanomics cite tons of statistics to back up their chapter about names moving down. I listened to the audiobook so alas don't have any cites handy. IIRC there are some classic names that "stay classy," but there was a definite trend with names that started classy and went downhill.

Man, I need to get some sleep. When I went to log in to this thread I literally typed my screen name as "Harrington." LOL.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:21 PM
Argent Towers Argent Towers is offline
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I knew a lot of farm kids and black kids in high school who were II, III or IVs. Seems to me that the family stability required to do this is not exclusive to nobles. I think it's mostly an American tradition.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:37 PM
handsomeharry handsomeharry is offline
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Originally Posted by Argent Towers View Post
I knew a lot of farm kids and black kids in high school who were II, III or IVs. Seems to me that the family stability required to do this is not exclusive to nobles. I think it's mostly an American tradition.
I think that Rastus IV, or Homer Lester III don't quite shriek aristocracy as the aforementioned, tho. Could be wrong.
OTOH, I think if my last name were Scrope, that would be just an invitation to be called Scrote, so, I might change my name to Rastus Homer Lester VII.

hh
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:40 PM
Diogenes the Cynic Diogenes the Cynic is offline
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The last name as a first name is a snob thing too.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:43 PM
Argent Towers Argent Towers is offline
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I think that Rastus IV, or Homer Lester III don't quite shriek aristocracy as the aforementioned, tho. Could be wrong.
OTOH, I think if my last name were Scrope, that would be just an invitation to be called Scrote, so, I might change my name to Rastus Homer Lester VII.

hh
I don't mean that, I mean there will be kids with names like George Barker IV or Thomas Deckard IV - it's not like all farm kids and black kids nowadays have stereotypical names.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:59 PM
njtt njtt is offline
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I agree with Argent Towers. Both surnames used as first names and use of jr. III, IV etc. (apart from the case of monarchs) are largely American customs, even though some Americans seem to imagine names like that sound British, probably because they are actually associated with the US WASP upper class, who seem very Anglo to many Americans, even though they are really from New England rather than yer actual England. By now, however, some surnames that have been made into first names have be exported back across the Atlantic to become British first names too, thanks to Hollywood and American TV.
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:12 AM
Musicat Musicat is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
Which is why there are no upper-class people with names like Elizabeth, Charles, or William today.

(In other words, I question the premise.)

Names certainly have trends: old names and name patterns are retired, or revived, and new ones are created. I'm sure those trends vary by class. But especially if those names are tied to religious or historical figures, I doubt if the upper class abandons them just because the lower class adopts them. I haven't read Freakanomics: do the authors give stats to support this?
I read the book some time ago, and yes, I think they did give stats, and I, too, question not the premise, but their conclusion.

The problem arises when you try to claim one event caused the other. This is especially difficult when you are comparing two time cycles. If Charles is popular in upper class names in 1910, 1930, 1950 and 1970, and popular in lower classes in 1920, 1940 and 1960, which came first? Was that a foreshock of the next or an aftershock of the last earthquake?
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Old 02-10-2010, 05:45 AM
Wendell Wagner Wendell Wagner is offline
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Fifty years ago that was certainly the stereotype of an old-money name. Consider the character of Chatsworth Osborne Jr. in The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052490/

I'm not so sure that today the stereotype holds up as well.
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  #16  
Old 02-10-2010, 07:17 AM
WarmNPrickly WarmNPrickly is offline
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I think these are just WASP names. They are clearly English.
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  #17  
Old 02-10-2010, 07:34 AM
rocking chair rocking chair is offline
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the last name as first or middle name thing comes in when mum marries but wants to keep her money last name going. hopefully the family will remember little aster knickerbacker and a trust will be placed on the kidlet.

or she could be the last one with the foo foo moneyed name and by putting it into the name of the children keeps it going.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:13 AM
Bijou Drains Bijou Drains is offline
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Freakanomics had stats for the names but I can't recall where they got the stats from and how they matched them up with income levels.

I know when I hear certain unusual first names like Campbell I assume the person came from money.
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:05 AM
WotNot WotNot is offline
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I think the OP started a hare by roping in the English aristocracy (let alone the royal family, who are another kettle of caviar altogether). I don't think there's any necessary connection between the naming conventions of the upper classes in the US and UK – “old money” in America doesn't have any particular correlation to European aristocracy anyway.

For what it's worth, English aristocratic families do often use family surnames as given names, but they tend towards a superfluity of given names in any case, with the surnames shuffled towards the back of the pack. So in the UK you might find The Honourable Rupert Eustace Henry Barrington FitzRoy Chadsworth, but he'd be unlikely to go by “Barrington” unless all his other forenames were in use by other close living members of his family – and everyone would call him “Baz”, anyway.

It's not only upper class families in the UK who use surnames as given names, though: the decidedly working class family of actor Robson Green does, for instance. His uncle Mattheson is my mother's hairdresser, as it happens.

Last edited by WotNot; 02-10-2010 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:27 AM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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The other pretension is going by the full name - "Barrington" instead of "Barry" (we'll skip the Barack/Barry discussion) or Franklin not Frank, etc. A number of people tend to use their midle name if their first name does not translate appropriately to today's sensibilities.

What's amazing is how many recent US Presidents completely changed their names - IIRC, Reagan, Ford, and Clinton(?). That's quite a large proportion compared to the general population.

A friend of mine said he mentioned to his mother once "Aha! I know why my middle name is Keith! It's out Scottish clan name." She replied "No. It's because there was a really good looking actor on TV named Brian Keith, so your first two names are Brian Keith."

Then I explained to him how the dad in Family Affair lived with his "butler" Mr. French - yeah, right. I assume this subtlety was lost on innocent suburbia.
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  #21  
Old 02-10-2010, 07:38 PM
Gary "Wombat" Robson Gary "Wombat" Robson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WotNot View Post
It's not only upper class families in the UK who use surnames as given names, though: the decidedly working class family of actor Robson Green does, for instance.
I have a cousin who has the first name "Robson." His father chose it for his mother's side of the family (my side, as it were). Since they didn't have the Robson last name, he figured his son could just go by a diminutive or nickname (Robin or Rob). Works fine. No pretension.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:57 AM
An Gadaí An Gadaí is online now
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Originally Posted by Gary "Wombat" Robson View Post
I have a cousin who has the first name "Robson." His father chose it for his mother's side of the family (my side, as it were). Since they didn't have the Robson last name, he figured his son could just go by a diminutive or nickname (Robin or Rob). Works fine. No pretension.
I've come across this before, the mother's maiden name as the child's name or middle name.
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:07 AM
dtilque dtilque is offline
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Originally Posted by An Gadaí View Post
I've come across this before, the mother's maiden name as the child's name or middle name.
It's nothing new. For example, Meriwether Lewis, of Lewis & Clark fame, received his mother's maiden name.
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:09 AM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is online now
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And Clark Kent of Lois & Clark fame received his mother's maiden name.

Last edited by Peter Morris; 02-11-2010 at 05:10 AM.
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  #25  
Old 02-11-2010, 05:16 AM
njtt njtt is offline
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In my family, not at all wealthy or aristocratic, for three generations now, all children have received my paternal grandmother's maiden name as a middle name.
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  #26  
Old 02-11-2010, 09:36 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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The upper crust names are simple caricatures. There may have been one or two individuals who held them but most of them were the inventions of lower class satirists.

Harvard did a time capsule for the Class of 1900.
Quote:
Frederic Bonnet Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (SM, 1902; PhD, 1903), Assistant in the Chemistry Department
Edward Cornelius Briggs Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (DMD, 1878; MD, 1880), Instructor in Dental Materials
William Garrot Brown Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: taught history and served as Deputy Keeper of University Records
Frank Carney Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: in charge of stacks in the Harvard College Library
Harrie Rogers Chamberlain Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1901; AM, 1902), student in Harvard College
Archibald Cary Coolidge Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1887), taught history and was Director of the Harvard College Library
Julian Lowell Coolidge Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1895), Instructor in Mathematics
(William) Thomas Councilman Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AM, hon., 1899), Professor of Pathological Anatomy
T. Franklin Currier Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1894), Assistant in charge of Cataloging (later Associate Lbrarian) in the Harvard College Library
Francis Henry Davenport Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (MD, 1874), Assistant Professor of Gynecology
William Morris Davis Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (SB, 1869), Sturgis-Hooper Professor of Geology
Richard Derby Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1903; Overseer, 1923-1929), freshman in Harvard College
Durant Drake Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1900), senior in Harvard College
(Harry) Kellogg Durland Box 58
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: special student
Anna Belle Eisenhower Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, Radcliffe, 1900; AM, Radcliffe, 1907), senior in Radcliffe College
Ephraim Emerton Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1871), Professor of Ecclesiastical History
Roger Ernst Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1903; AM, 1904; LLB, 1906), sophomore in Harvard College
Thomas Fillebrown Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (DMD, 1869), Professor of Operative Dentistry
Carl Russell Fish Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (PhD, 1900), completing his doctoral work in history
Williamina Paton Stevens Fleming, Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: Curator of Astronomical Photographs in the Harvard College Observatory
Paul Revere Frothingham Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (STB, AM, 1889; STD, 1915; Overseer, 1904-1910 and 1918-1924), Preacher to the University
Katharine Fullerton Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, Radcliffe, 1900), senior in Radcliffe College
Charles Montraville Green Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1874; MD, 1877), Associate Professor of Obstetrics and Clinical Gynecology, and Secretary of the Faculty of Medicine
James Bradstreet Greenough Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1856), Professor of Latin
Edward Hale Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1879),Assistant Professor of Homiletics
Asaph Hall Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AM, hon., 1879), Lecturer on Celestial Mechanics
Paul Henry Hanus, Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: Professor of History and of the Art of Teaching
Charles Homer Haskins Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AM, hon., 1908; LittD, 1924), Temporary Lecturer in History (later Professor and Dean of the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences)
Adams Sherman Hill Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1853; LLB, 1855; LLD, 1903), Boylston Professor of Rhetoric and Oratory
Hyatt family Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: The Hyatt family consisted of Alpheus Hyatt (SB, 1862, LLD, Brown, 1898, Professor of Biology and Zoology at Boston University and Assistant in the Museum of Comparative Zoology ), Ardella Hyatt, and their daughter, Harriet Randolph Hyatt. Another daughter, Anna Vaughn Hyatt, lived in the household, while son Alpheus did not.
Frank Lowell Kennedy Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1892; SB, 1898), Instructor in Mechanical Drawing
William Coolidge Lane Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1881), Librarian in Harvard College Library and organizer of the Chest of 1900 project
Charles Rockwell Lanman, Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: Professor of Sanskrit
Edison Lewis Box 59
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1902), sophomore in Harvard College
Warren Andrew Locke Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1869), Organist and Choirmaster in Appleton Chapel
Robert Gardner Loring Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1892; MD, 1896), Assistant in Anatomy
David Gordon Lyon Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AM, hon., 1901), Hollis Professor of Divinity
Robert MacDonald Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1894; AM, 1895; STB, 1896), Preacher to the University
Morgan Morris Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1881), Professor of Classical Philology
William Morrow Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1900; AM, 1901), senior in Harvard College
James Ambrose Moyer Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (SB, 1899), Instructor in Descriptive Geometry
James Gregory Mumford Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1885), Assistant in Clinical and Operative Surgery
Hugo Münsterberg Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AM, hon., 1901), Professor of Psychology
John Frederick Neal Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1897; LLB, 1900), proctor and third-year law student
Albert Hitchings Newhall Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1898; AM, 1899), Assistant in History
John Orne, Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: Curator of Arabic Manuscripts in the Semitic Museum
Alice Freeman Palmer, Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: President of Wellesley College (1882-1887), wife of George Herbert Palmer
George Herbert Palmer Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1864), Alford Professor of Natural Religion, Moral Philosophy and Civil Polity, and husband of Alice Freeman Palmer
Lucy Allen Paton, Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: graduate student in Radcliffe College
Francis Greenwood Peabody Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1869), Plummer Professor of Christian Morals (Overseer, 1877-1882; Dean of the Divinity School, 1901-1906)
Edward Charles Pickering Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (SB, 1865), Paine Professor of Practical Astronomy and Director of the Harvard College Observatory
Evan Randolph Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1903), freshman in Harvard College
William Howell Reed Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1898; AM, 1899), Assistant in German
A. Lawrence Rotch Box 60
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AM, hon., 1891), Assistant in Meteorology (later Professor, and founder of the Blue Hill Observatory)
Dudley Allen Sargent, Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: Assistant Professor of Physical Education
Arthur Searle Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1856), Phillips Professor of Astronomy
Eliot Spalding Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1900), senior in Harvard College
Lucy Sprague Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1900, Radcliffe), senior in Radcliffe College
Horace Baxter Stanton Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1900; LLB, 1903), senior in Harvard College
George Russell Stobbs Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1899; AM, 1900; LLB, 1902), Assistant in History
Francis Humphreys Storer Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (SB, 1855), Dean of the Bussey Institute
Malcolm Storer Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1885; MD, 1889), Curator of Coins, and Assistant in Gynecology
Joseph Henry Thayer Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1850; AM 1864; STD, 1884), Bussey Professor of New Testament Criticism and Interpretation in Harvard Divinity School.
William Hopkins Tillinghast Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1877), Assistant Librarian in the Harvard College Library
Crawford Howell Toy Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (Lld, hon., 1904), Professor of Oriental Languages
Alfred Marston Tozzer Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1900; AM, 1901; PhD, 1904), senior in Harvard College
Barrett Wendell Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1877; LittD, 1918; Overseer, 1920-1921), Professor of English
Julius Georg Wilhelm Werner Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (DMD, 1876), Clinical Instructor in Operative Dentistry
Charles James White Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1890; MD, 1893), Assistant in Dermatology
James Clarke White Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1853; MD, 1856), Professor of Dermatology (and Charles James White?s father)
Samuel Williston Box 61
Degree/s, schools, and/or occupation:: (AB, 1882), Professor of Law
Paul Revere Frothingham is a funny name. Charles James White isn't. About 99% are ordinary. And not one single Junior, let alone a III or a IV.
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  #27  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:41 AM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
Which is why there are no upper-class people with names like Elizabeth, Charles, or William today...
Upper-class Britons often (though not always) have titles of some sort (Duke, Lord, Sir, the Hon, etc) to distinguish themselves from the lower classes. Americans must reley on their names.

Here's what Miss Emily Post had to say on the matter back in the '20s.
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  #28  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:48 AM
Shot From Guns Shot From Guns is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
I haven't read Freakanomics: do the authors give stats to support this?
I just had to drop in to say that this made me laugh.

For anybody who hasn't read the book: Everything in it is backed up heavily with statistics. Which isn't to say their conclusions are always right or their analysis necessarily takes everything into account, but the stats are definitely there.
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  #29  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:51 AM
Icarus Icarus is offline
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Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner View Post
Fifty years ago that was certainly the stereotype of an old-money name. Consider the character of Chatsworth Osborne Jr. in The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052490/

I'm not so sure that today the stereotype holds up as well.
Trivia - Chatsworth and Osborne are both major streets in the San Fernando Valley (The Valley) section of Los Angeles. The writers were using an old trick for coming up with character names by using street names, but with the intent of sounding "upper crust".
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  #30  
Old 02-11-2010, 12:36 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is online now
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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
Trivia - Chatsworth and Osborne are both major streets in the San Fernando Valley (The Valley) section of Los Angeles. The writers were using an old trick for coming up with character names by using street names, but with the intent of sounding "upper crust".
What about Milton and Armitage, who was the character that Chatsworth replaced?
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:43 PM
Wendell Wagner Wendell Wagner is offline
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alphaboi867 writes:

> Upper-class Britons often (though not always) have titles of some sort (Duke,
> Lord, Sir, the Hon, etc) to distinguish themselves from the lower classes.

No, they don't. I'll let some Brits correct me if I'm wrong about this. I lived in the U.K. from 1987 to 1990, so I'm going by my memory. The number of Brits with titles is pretty small compared with the number above any given level of income or with the number who in social status are similarly high-level.
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  #32  
Old 02-11-2010, 01:45 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner View Post
alphaboi867 writes:

> Upper-class Britons often (though not always) have titles of some sort (Duke,
> Lord, Sir, the Hon, etc) to distinguish themselves from the lower classes.

No, they don't. I'll let some Brits correct me if I'm wrong about this. I lived in the U.K. from 1987 to 1990, so I'm going by my memory. The number of Brits with titles is pretty small compared with the number above any given level of income or with the number who in social status are similarly high-level.
My dad told me the funny story about the successful factory owner who bought himself a peerage (house of lords title?). When selecting his peerage name, he chose the name of the street his factory was on. That way, everyone would think the street was named after him.

Recently, the purchasable peerage has been a place for the truly pretentious. Lord Black, whose real name is Conrad Black bought one. He was a expelled from the best school in Canada, allegedly for cheating. he first got rich in business by "persuading" the widow of a partner to sell out the whole corporation (details are disputed). He also made money running several businesses into the ground, and was the impetus behind a Canadian law making it illegal for a company to remove money from pension funds. He built a media empire by the simple expedient of buying up newspapers, cutting costs below bone level, and milking the funds from shareholders with questionable management tactics - for which he's currently doing time in US prison. Such are the upper crust of titled British society, bought and paid for.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:50 PM
Kolga Kolga is offline
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Re: use of family/last names as personal/first names. I attended a family reunion a couple of years ago. My extended family does come from what could be considered southern aristocracy - old money, mostly from plantation ownership back in the day, captains of industry, etc.

It was a running joke in the car on the way home that apparently, our family had been issued a finite number of names and had to come up with new combinations using only those names.

FirstName1 LastName1 would be related to LastName1 LastName2.
LastName2 LastName3 would be related to FirstName2 LastName1.
FirstName3 LastName1 would be related to LastName2 FirstName1.
etc.

There were about five last names that were used as last, first, or middle names throughout the five hundred or so people there.
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  #34  
Old 02-11-2010, 02:00 PM
Baron Greenback Baron Greenback is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
Recently, the purchasable peerage has been a place for the truly pretentious.
You can't directly buy a peerage, although being a generous donor to party funds tends to expedite the matter. I'm not sure why Conrad Black got his though, as it was Tony Blair who put him forward, and Black and his newspaper were no friends of the Labour Party.
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  #35  
Old 02-11-2010, 02:35 PM
Icarus Icarus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
What about Milton and Armitage, who was the character that Chatsworth replaced?
Nope, not major streets.
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  #36  
Old 02-11-2010, 02:51 PM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
...Such are the upper crust of titled British society, bought and paid for.
Another example - a talented writer but a scummy guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Archer
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