Seven month to fix a toothache

In September of 2009, my wife developed an infection in her tooth. She had previously scheduled an appointment with her dentist for a root canal but they couldn’t perform the procedure until they cleaned out the site. They put her on a low grade one-two combo punch of penicillin and pain killer. Two days later she realized this wasn’t enough.

As we’re travelling in the car, she nearly doubles over in pain. Her entire mouth is throbbing and she’s feeling pain all through her jaw and creeping down towards her neck. The medication she was on wasn’t strong enough. We needed something more. The problem was that this was Saturday. I called the dentist’s office and the office was closed. I left a message just in case someone might hear it before Monday. Then I called our primary care physician and talked to the on-call doctor. He listened to the scenario and said there was a good possibility the infection was spreading. His advice: “get to the Emergency Room. Fast.”

We’d never used our insurance for anything more than a routine doctor’s visit and so, not wanting to travel to an out of coverage hospital, I called up our insurance company. As a sidenote to people outside the United States reading this: most American insurance companies have in-network and out-of-network doctors and hospitals. The former is the preferred method where services are mostly paid for through insurance coverage. The latter has either a greatly reduced coverage or you get no benefit whatsoever from insurance as they will simply refuse to pay for your treatment.

So I called the number on our insurance card and got an answering machine. I called another number. And another. And another. I called every number on my card (there are eight) and could not reach an actual human being to direct us to the appropriate hospital. So we chose one we believed was covered based upon what we recalled from the 100 page booklet sent to us a year ago which was probably in a filing cabinet at work that I couldn’t get on Saturday even if I wanted to drive downtown to retrieve it. The hospital we chose was one that, we discovered later, turned out to be in-network.

It was our lucky day.

The hospital visit was quick and efficient. We got in to see an intake nurse and then into a patient room within 20 minutes of arriving. A Nurse Practitioner took my wife’s vitals, did some checks, and then they wheeled her off to get a CAT scan to see if the infection had spread. An hour later they determined that the infection had not spread, though they were glad she came in rather than waiting until Monday to get this resolved because there’s no telling what would have happened by then. She was given a higher dose of pain meds/antibiotics and 2 hours after we arrived we were on our way.

A few weeks later we received notices from the insurance company. We got letters that stated THIS IS NOT A BILL but just lets you know how much is covered and how much you can expect to owe when the bill(s) arrive.

Total cost for the radiology doctor: $320.

Total cost of the hospital visit: $4,959.

Total amount covered by insurance: $0.

We would be getting two separate bills from two separate entities for a two hour visit and not a single dollar of it was being covered by insurance. Potentially we’d be on the hook for $5,300. We don’t have $5,300.

I called up the insurance company. The representative on the phone said this was a dental procedure and dental procedures aren’t covered. What dental procedure? I asked. This was a CAT Scan for an infection and was treated using medications only a doctor could prescribe. No, the rep stated. According to the hospital this was a dental procedure.

So I called up the hospital. I told them what I had been told by the insurance company. They were confused. “We don’t put ‘dental procedure’ on bills to insurance companies,” she said.

“Well they’re refusing to pay it based upon the claim. What do you put on there?”

“I’ll fax it over to you.”

So I get the fax of all the charges listed. If you’re curious, it was $3,503 for a CT, $1,500 for the ER, $4.80 for Oxycodone, and $1.43 for Ibuprofen. Nothing about dental. I call the insurance company again and tell them what I’ve discovered. It doesn’t make a difference. I ask to speak to a supervisor knowing that this too will be fruitless because even a supervisor doesn’t have the ability to make a decision in covering $5,000 of what had previously been determined to be non-coverable activity. And, as I suspected, nothing came of that conversation either.
By now it’s early November and I decide to bring my HR Department into the picture. I let them know of the scenario, e-mail them all the appropriate documentation, and hope that they can help. They contact their insurance rep and get back to me.

“Good news!” they state.
“What?” I ask
“All you need to do is get the hospital to change their coding and resubmit the claim.”
“OK, thanks!” I say, thinking this is now going to be an easy fix.

But, of course, it’s not. I call up the original person at the hospital I spoke with.

Change the coding? They can’t do that, it’s illegal.
“No, I’m not asking you to change the procedures done or the tests run. I just need you to get rid of anything related to dental.”
“But there isn’t anything related to dental. There’s nothing to change.”
“I know that. I honestly don’t know what you need to change either. But can you just resubmit something?”
“No, we can’t. You’ll have to talk with the insurance company.”

So back and forth I went on multiple phone calls to multiple people at both the insurance company and the hospital. The insurance company said it wasn’t their fault, they just need the coding changed. The hospital said it wasn’t their fault, you’re going to need to appeal it to the insurance company. Back and forth and back and forth. It felt like it was a game of Keep Away as they threw the blame over to the other entity.

At times, we idly wondered if it wouldn’t have been better to have my wife suffer in excruciating pain for 48 hours in order to ensure we were travelling the appropriate avenues of bureaucracy for health care. But, as ridiculous as that might sound to wonder, even that wouldn’t have worked. In two days the infection quite possibly would have spread and what was an easy (if costly) fix on Saturday could have turned into a complex (and more costly) procedure on Monday and there’s no telling how much money that would have ended up pulling out of our own pockets.

The hospital at this point has pretty much determined that insurance will never be paying and recalculates payment based upon what they would bill people without any insurance. We get a new bill for $1,800. For two hours of care, this is still extremely costly but, if push came to shove, would at least be manageable in our finances. Still – and if I may be just a tad uncouth here – Eff that Ess up the Bee. $1,800 for what? What in the heck were we paying insurance for every single month if they refuse to provide the very services we’re paying for?

And can we take a step back at this point and examine something? I want you to take a cold hard look at those numbers. It costs a person with insurance $5,000 and an uninsured person $1,800 for the exact same visit. Why? If you’ve been sitting there under the impression that your money is not going to cover the uninsured in this country, take a third or fourth look at those numbers. Far be it from me to generalize, but I’m just going to go out on a limb and say that every single hospital visit in this country by someone with insurance will cost more than the same visit without insurance specifically because the hospitals need to make money from the entities that pay to offset those who come in that they must see without the ability to pay. Hospitals cannot refuse service but neither can they remain open providing free or reduced priced care to everyone without compensating for it somewhere. It’s a simple matter of budget. And the insurance company doesn’t eat that cost. They just pass it onto you in the way of increase premiums and, well, reduced coverage.

It’s late January now. Still nothing’s been resolved but we do get something in the mail from the radiology doctor’s office. Remember that $320 bill? It’s gone to collections. This, despite keeping them in the loop every few weeks about our progress with the insurance company. Great. Our credit score could be slashed because of some bureaucracy snafus. So now I call up their billing office, they see that they’ve logged several calls from me, and recall the notice from the collection agency (but not until after my wife had fielded several calls already from them). Obviously we’re reaching the end of our leeway in payments to these groups so I’ve got to redouble my efforts and getting this whole mess resolved.

I go to the hospital. I sit down with someone from billing and discuss the entire situation. Half an hour later they can’t solve the problem, but they give me the direct line to the hospital’s national billing office and hopefully it can be resolved there. I called the number and, well, would it make an unbelievably long story just a believably long story if I said they couldn’t help either? Apparently to change the coding would take either 1) a panel to convene to discuss my case which probably wouldn’t be changed or 2) the ER doctor to go in and manually change his coding, which he wasn’t going to do. I kept those two ideas in mind, thanked them and hung up.

I figured at this point that since I’m already at the hospital, I may as well make the most of the situation. I head down to the ER to see if the doctor who treated us was in so that I could discuss option 2. He wasn’t though I got to explain the situation for the 137,987th time to the receptionist and then 137,988th time to the office clerk who they referred me to. She then wrote another name and number down on a sheet of paper and said to call her as maybe she would help.
I get out to my car and make the phone call.

She answers. I tell her who I am. I explain the situation. I detail the problems with the hospital. I rehash the steps I’ve taken. I clarify our position and the position of the insurance company. I beg and plead with her to do something, anything, to rectify this problem.

“oh yeah,” she says “let me just change toothache to headache on the initial documentation and resubmit the claim.”
“…what?”
“Yeah, I’ll just change the wording on the form and refile it with the insurance company.”
“What?”
“This sort of thing happens all the time. Insurance companies are constantly refusing claims. This usually takes care of the situation.”

I could have kissed her. I could have reached through the phone and made mad passionate love to her. I have no idea if she was telling the truth or not and I honestly didn’t care. She was the first person ever that said “yes I can fix this problem.”

And she did. It took a couple back and forths with the insurance company but it all fell into line. I let the doctor’s office know what to do, they tried it, and we got a letter a couple of weeks ago that our $320 bill was being covered. Then, last night, we got in the mail a notice from the insurance company about our hospital bill. The $5,000 was now covered. We just owed the co-pay.

It was over. Well, almost over. I’m holding out until I see a bill from the hospital. But I really, truly, think this entire ordeal is over.

I really don’t know what the heck this story’s about. Is it a tale of a (mostly) inept or ignorant health care billing office? Is it a story of an evil corporation bent upon world domination? Is it a dramatic retelling of a hero’s fall from grace and his triumphant resurgence? Is this now a novella with 2,000 words and counting? Maybe all of the above.

But it was seven months. Hundreds of phone calls. Participation, time and paperwork from at least a dozen hourly or salaried workers at the hospital, the doctor’s office, the insurance company, my HR Department, and the collection agency. Stress and worry and anger and frustration. How much did this cost everyone? How much money was lost by everyone involved dealing with this problem rather than just paying it like they were supposed to? And I’m not just talking about the insurance companies who probably earned more in interest keeping my money for seven months. I’m talking about the two health care providers who went seven months without payment and still had to employ people whose sole job day in and day out is dealing with the constant stream of problems like this one arising from insurance companies? Seven months to deal with a problem that should never have arisen in the first place and could have instantly been rectified if only the right people had been contacted sooner. How many hundreds or thousands of people before me have given up and paid out of pocket thinking that they’d exhausted all their options and insurance was never going to pay? This entire process is scary and disgusting and nauseating all at the same time.

This is being placed in MPSIMS because it’s not a rant. Well, not entirely a rant. And it’s not a debate. There’s really nothing here to debate. These are the facts of what happened to us.

I guess I just wanted to share.

God save us from the efficiencies of private sector health insurance.

Could have been worse. I could have been in a third world hellhole like Ireland or Canada. Can you imagine having to deal with their regulations for healthcare? Barbaric.

I know - I had a huge lump come up in my right breast a couple of weeks ago, and I had to go to my family doctor then go to an ultrasound clinic then wait for the results from my doctor’s office - it took me a week and cost me exactly zero to find out it was just a cyst. Insanity!

The thing is they don’t. You don’t let fire departments and police services operate for profit, for good reason. While it would be a capitalists wet dream, it would be extremely predatory and create huge inequities, based entirely on the size of your wallet.

Your story is frightening, I feel for how frustrating it must have been. How can people not see that a single payer system would eliminate enough waste to actually lower costs? I mean, 7 months and how many hours by how many people just to end up where it should have started.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of people, who pay high premiums for full coverage, end up being denied coverage when they actually try and use the insurance they’ve paid for.

I’m glad you got it all worked out, but man that’s just frightening.

Unless there are pictures, it didn’t exist. Sorry.

Could someone tell me please what a “single-payer system” is, and why it would be better?

One payer, the government, offers insurance to everyone.

With only one agency, there is no duplication of forms, conflicting stories of coverage. Think about how much a large company offers insurance to it’s employees for, compared to what a small business has to charge. The difference is the efficiencies offered by being part of a larger group.

Now imagine the whole nation as one group. Rates are low as a result. One agency cuts out tons of paper pushers and checkers and levels upon levels of corporate hacks who’s job seems to be to deny you coverage, and run you around for 7 months. Enormous savings. There is one simple form, universally accepted at all hospitals, all doctors. Rates for services are largely uniform wherever you are.

Prices for things like prescription drugs are negotiated, for the entire country, insuring way, way better deals, costs drop. Think of how cheap your drugs would be if they weren’t spending a ton of money on advertising. Your coverage, being universal moves with you, whatever job you have, wherever you live.

Now cut out the ‘for profit’, make it like police departments or fire services. They aren’t trying to turn a profit, everything is at cost. Huge savings.

Now factor in the effect of having preventative and maintenance care. Instead of expensive ‘end of life care’ for people who could not afford to treat their illnesses, people get proper care for things like Diabetes. Instead of just end care, people go to doctors at the first sign of illness. This saves an enormous amount of money, not to mention healthier people and less lost works days etc.

Similar to the public option your president couldn’t get past his own party members. The delivery of health care in America is an enormously profitable business, throw in the drug companies and you can see how those deep pockets could persuade politician’s to back off any healthcare reform scheme.

What your president has done, though not quite what anyone really wished for, is extremely impressive considering these conditions. I was pulling for him but, honestly, I thought he’d get himself killed trying to do this.

I had a similar experience last year - excruciating toothache due to an infected molar with *unbelieveable *pain. Phoned our dentist at 9am begging for help, got an appointment for 10.15am, an hour later I’d had the first root canal treatment and had a further booking for a week’s time to complete the process.

Total cost for both visits: £46.50 ($70)

If it had been out-of-hours, or if I’d been in another part of the UK on a visit, I’d still have been seen and treated in the same timescale for the same price.

Every time I hear stories such as the OP it does sound like a totally different world over your side of the pond.

I know anecdotes are not data, and plenty of people in the UK have to wait ages for an NHS appointment.

Is the OP’s experience typical for the US, or would Americans also shake their heads at the chasing needed and say it was totally different from normal experience?

And there lies the great debat…Should healthcare be a matter of public policy like fire protection and police protection. Without getting too preachy, I’ve never heard anyone say “You know I’m tired of paying taxes for a fire department I never use” :slight_smile:

Great story!

When I bought medicine in California several years ago it was made very clear that insurance companies paid less for drugs than the uninsured paid. (It would be “contrary to American principles of free enterprise to deny insurance companies their right to use their purchasing power to negotiate discounts.”) I wonder if the uninsured discount on procedures already performed is based more on chance of collection than an actual preference for the uninsured.

Out of curiosity, as one of the lucky ones who does have insurance, how did this story affect your views on UHC?

Euphemism for government-paid. You know, like police protection.

Single-payer police protection is clearly an example of corrupt neo-Socialist idealogy. But I’m sure left-wingers would find something to complain about with libertarian police:

“911 operator”

  • “We’ve had a home break-in …”
    “What’s your insurance company, sir?”
  • “State Farm. Send police, quick! The criminals are still in the house!”
    “Do you have basic coverage or 24/7?”
  • “Uh … must be 24/7; our premiums are sure high enough for it. Please! They’ve got my daughter hostage!”
    “Just a minute, sir! Did you add her to the policy? We get a lot of calls like this where the insurance company refuses to pay for an uninsured third party.”
  • “For heaven’s sake! Quick! I’ll pay for it myself if necessary!”
    “Will this be Visa or MasterCard?”

Heh… I had almost this exact discussion with my internist the other day… she STRONGLY believes that universal healthcare is something that would benefit society as a whole (not that I even remotely disagree). She made the point that she pays taxes that fund schools, even though she has no kids, because it benefits society.

Another story, not nearly as harrowing as the OP by about a million miles: A few weeks ago, I was at the orthopedist’s office for a followup for some knee pain. On the way out of the office building, I rolled my foot outward while walking, and went down like a sack of potatoes. Clearly a sprained ankle, though obviously it could have been a more severe injury. My husband happened to be there with me, so he went back and borrowed a wheelchair from the ortho’s office. At that point, I had 3 choices: Find my way home… go downstairs to the ER in the same building, or wait and be seen by a doc (they could have fit me in). Going home would prevent me from finding out whether it was a more severe injury. Going to the ER would have cost a fortune and tied up resources unnecessarily. Waiting to see a doc would have meant that the insurance would have most likely denied the claim (two visits, same doc, same day) and would have cost a fortune.

I opted to beg an Ace bandage from the ortho staff and hobbled on out with a cane I happened to have in the car.

As it happens, it appears to have just been a sprain, and I did everything that a doc would have told me to do. But what if it had been more severe? I’d have made things worse by leaving.

[quote=“Enderw24, post:1, topic:535548”]

And can we take a step back at this point and examine something? I want you to take a cold hard look at those numbers. It costs a person with insurance $5,000 and an uninsured person $1,800 for the exact same visit. Why?QUOTE]

Overall you’re not telling me anything I haven’t heard before. One thought on this is that the 5K bill is what they send the ins company, not what they actually pay. My hospital used to offer private pay patients the same discount that big ins and medicare has negotiated.

Thus: hosp ‘bill is x’, medicare ‘we’ll pay you 40 cents on the dollar’, INS ‘we won’t pay any more than medicare,’ hosp (to private pay) ‘bill is X, but we’ll cut you a deal.’

When you get your final statement check to see if there was an insurance negotiated reduction, I predict they pay close to the 1800 minus the deductable.
No, it doesn’t make any sense, and no I can’t provide a cite, but it’s commonly believed in the industry that the 5k is an inflated amount so that the negotioated reduction will be a workable figure.

Having said that, I’ve also seen people come into the ER with toothaches that were ‘so bad’ they couldn’t possibly wait for their scheduled app’t on monday to see the dentist, then fall asleep on the gurney, and leave satisfied with a Rx for vicodin*. So it’s no surprise to me that an insurance company considers a headache caused by a rapidly evolving facial infection that happended to begin in a tooth to be a legitimate ER visit, but a toothache not so much.
You might think that the need for a CT scan would clue them in, but then again, the number of CT scans I’ve seen performed to ‘rule out lawsuit’ boogles the mind. Allowing litigation to be a defacto part of the oversight is just another part of the problem.

I have no idea what the future will really bring, but people that don’t believe our system needs to be overhauled make me want to vomit.

*I have no idea what the county medical welfare programs for nonmedicare eligible pts actually pays the hosp.

I strongly believe this is the case. Typo Knig had sinus surgery 3ish years back - and the “rack rate” for the surgery was on the order of 50,000 (including the surgeon and hospital fees). Insurance paid less than 10,000, probably closer to 6,000. If we hadn’t had insurance, would we truly have been on the hook for 50,000 for a 90 minute procedure???

Hey, hey, I had sinus surgery 3ish years back, didn’t cost me a nickel, didn’t fill out a form or make a phone call. No paperwork to do. (I did signed a release before surgery, and picked up and paid for, my own meds.) Includes all Dr visits, including followups (which, with this surgery, can mean 2 times a wk for a few wks, once a week for a few weeks, twice a month for a couple of months, once a month for a few months, and finally down to once a year). Damn socialist medicine.

The idea that maybe the “final” bill for insurance isn’t quite the final bill hadn’t occurred to me. I’ll let you all know when we get a hospital bill to see how much insurance actually paid out of the 5K.

I had to pay twelve hundred bucks out of pocket because they’re still going back and forth with my insurance over my stress fracture from last year. I thought it was long since taken care of, and I called them up because I thought it had recurred. (Actually it was a tendon issue.) They wouldn’t make the appointment until they got they money, even though they knew it was up to the goddamned insurance company. I MAY at some point get reimbursed.

I don’t HAVE an extra twelve hundred bucks.

I work hard at knowing as little as possible about money, however, at one time our hosp offered private pay pts the same deal as negotiated big business (it was ‘the right thing to do’), I don’t think we still do that (hard times and all that). If you offer to pay full when you check out of the ER you can get a deal then, but I don’t think our admin people are supposed to tell you that.

If you have the option of getting your first round of pills in the ER or just taking a prescription and going, the latter is far cheaper. While it’s reasonable that having a trained professional dispense medications increases your level of care, there’s no distinction made between a triple strength motrin and in IM injection of antibiotic.

If you have a fish hook too deeply imbeded in your skin to be finessed back out and the doc offers you a local numbing shot before they push it though, you should know that in my ER that’s a 3k $ numbing shot.

I would never dream of advising you what you should do based on the cost of treatment, IANA doctor, don’t listen to anything I say, mortality and mobidity could ensue.