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  #1  
Old 08-26-1999, 10:45 PM
Markxxx Markxxx is offline
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Looked up a few sights but keep getting the same information. Usuallly no he couldn't have figured it out but we don't know how he cheated.

Any thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 08-26-1999, 11:24 PM
Ennius Ennius is offline
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Didn't Cecil already deal with this guy? If not, feel free to check out any Skeptical Inquirer from the last 20 years; they all seem to contain the debunking of perpetual motion and the like.
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  #3  
Old 08-27-1999, 04:43 AM
Undead Dude Undead Dude is offline
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Are Johann Bessler and Jean Ernest Elie Bessler the same person?

EB has some info that seems to be referring to the same guy.

Quote:
The first kind includes those devices that purport to deliver more energy from a falling or turning body than is required to restore those devices to their original state. The most common of these, and the oldest, is the overbalanced wheel. In a typical version, flexible arms are attached to the outer rim of a vertically mounted wheel. An inclined trough is arranged to transfer rolling weights from folded
arms on one side of the wheel to fully extended arms on the other. The implicit assumption is that the weights exert more downward force at the ends of extended arms than is required to raise them on the other side, where they are kept closer to the axis of rotation by the folding of the arms. This assumption violates the first law of
thermodynamics, also called the law of conservation of energy, which states that the total energy of a system is always constant. The first such device was suggested by Vilard de Honnecourt, a 13th-century French architect, and actual devices were built by
Edward Somerset, 2nd marquis of Worcester (1601-67), and Jean Ernest Elie Bessler, known as Orffyreus (1680-1745). Both
machines gave impressive demonstrations by virtue of their ability to operate for long periods of time, but they could not run indefinitely.
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  #4  
Old 08-27-1999, 04:53 AM
JimFox JimFox is offline
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I know of a guy that has a closed system, consisting of an electric motor and a large capacitor and a small motor to prime the system. Once the system is primed, the motor charges the cap, which then powers the motor. Porducing Electricity. They say it can't happen, but 5 houses are powered by this apperatice.
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  #5  
Old 08-27-1999, 05:04 AM
Undead Dude Undead Dude is offline
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JimFox--
If that is so, why hasn't this person stepped forward to collect his due fame and wealth? If he can prove it by powering 5 houses as you say, he shouldn't have much trouble. All he would need to do is to put it in a sealed box, and attach an appliance to it. Why hasn't he?

Also, I just looked at the refs to the book written by John Collins about Johann Bessler's wheel. He claimed to know how the wheel worked in 1997, but he has yet to successfully construct a working model...

Ya know, I think I am really beginning to see that "alchemy" effect used in explaining the continued belief in cold fusion.
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  #6  
Old 08-27-1999, 08:46 AM
typertrphy typertrphy is offline
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Undead Dude-
While I do surely share your skepticism in this area, I would also suggest that....just because he hasn't patented it yet doesn't mean that it has no merit.
I would urge you to pause, and consider the VERY well documented travails of one Preston Tucker, who in addition to having one of the coolest sounding names of the 20th Century, invented GOBS of amazing automotive thingamabobs, only to be crushed like a bug by the Big 3.
Food for thought, Dude...food for thought.
Typer
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  #7  
Old 08-27-1999, 10:30 AM
RealityChuck RealityChuck is offline
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Sorry, but Preston Tucker isn't exactly a great example. His cars, despite their technical advances, ran poorly and were prone to breakdowns. The marketplace crushed him, not Detroit.

And I bet you believe the gas companies suppressed the 100 mpg engine, too.

Remember, they laughed at Edison and they laughed at Fulton. They also laughed at Eustace Drainpipe for his invention of dry water (just add hot coffee). Boy, did they laugh at him!
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  #8  
Old 08-27-1999, 11:02 AM
CatInHat CatInHat is offline
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RealityChuck has a good point. Just because they laugh at someone doesn't mean that they're an unsung genius. Maybe it means that their idea is not worth pursuing.

Most of the people I know who believe that "the government" or "the big 3" or someone is suppressing some kind of 100 mpg engine or perpetual motion machine or something don't actually understand any of the engineering behind an internal combustion engine (or whatever). I'm thinking specifically of my brother-in-law here, typertrphy, not you, so don't take offense.

Explaining all of the engineering behind it isn't worth the effort; he won't listen anyway (after all, I was taught engineering by the Establishment; of course I believe all that stuff about the Second Law of Thermodynamics). Very frustrating!

------------------
The Cat In The Hat
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  #9  
Old 08-27-1999, 03:39 PM
Undead Dude Undead Dude is offline
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I wouldn't be suprised if Johann Bessler's wheel is quite a marvelous novelty. I'd be pretty impressed if I saw a big wheel that could run for weeks unsupported, while having energy drained by small jobs.

However, I have no doubt that if we let the wheel run indefinitely that it would eventually stop.
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  #10  
Old 08-27-1999, 05:09 PM
voltaire voltaire is offline
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Quote:
I know of a guy that has a closed system, consisting of an electric motor and a large
capacitor and a small motor to prime the system. Once the system is primed, the motor
charges the cap, which then powers the motor. Porducing Electricity. They say it can't
happen, but 5 houses are powered by this apperatice.
I don't mean to nitpick, but if its a "closed" system, where does the small motor get its electricity from? Also, are you sure that this isn't a generator that is running off gasoline and that the small motor is used to get it started?

First you've got a small motor which is somehow "primed" to charge a capacitor which in turn supplies power to a large motor. Where does the line going to the 5 houses plug into this system?

Sounds like your friend might be stealing electricity and has devised a rather disingenuous way of concealing it.
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  #11  
Old 08-27-1999, 09:08 PM
Nickrz Nickrz is offline
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There are people here who actually believe perpetual motion possible? Say it ain't so.
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  #12  
Old 08-29-1999, 11:34 AM
John W. Kennedy John W. Kennedy is offline
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All other considerations aside, how could this gadget produce anything like a clean 60Hz feed under the load variations you'd see in five houses? All their electronics would fry!

Sorry, but he's reaching too far. Even if I believed in perpetual motion, I wouldn't believe in this.



------------------
John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams
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  #13  
Old 08-29-1999, 11:32 PM
JimFox JimFox is offline
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I will give you more info about the generator. It does work. He also makes a pendulum thing, that turns on and off spark plugs on a fuel injection motor when accelerating and cuts gas use in about 1/2 and the engine runs real cool. This I have seen and it works real well.
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  #14  
Old 08-30-1999, 11:20 AM
John W. Kennedy John W. Kennedy is offline
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No it doesn't, because it can't. What you have described would throw away huge amounts of gasoline (when it didn't stall the engine altogether) and would also, for all practical purposes, render the car undrivable on anything but a straight, level track.

Sorry, but you're being scammed, big time.

------------------
John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams
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  #15  
Old 08-30-1999, 11:42 AM
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For those of your interested (and I make no assertions about the site), you might want to check out:

http://www.josephnewman.com
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  #16  
Old 08-30-1999, 12:34 PM
cmkeller cmkeller is offline
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Nickrz:

Quote:
There are people here who actually believe perpetual motion possible? Say it ain't so.
There's only one, but he never stops...

------------------
Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@schicktech.com

"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective
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  #17  
Old 08-30-1999, 02:11 PM
AuraSeer AuraSeer is offline
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If it's a real product, how about a link to a site that sells it? Even better, how 'bout giving us the patent number?
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  #18  
Old 08-30-1999, 02:46 PM
JimFox JimFox is offline
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OK, I'll make a site for the pendulum product, just don't tell the moderator, try www.cyberthings.com/pendulum but give me a day. Why no patent? They are a waste of money. You have to enforce it on your own. This is now public domain. Cadillac had a similar device at one time or another, so I've heard. They might have a patent.
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  #19  
Old 08-30-1999, 04:40 PM
Undead Dude Undead Dude is offline
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The pendulum thing isn't too important here, given that it isn't a perpetual motion machine. The supposed generator is the thing I want to here about. I esp want to hear why we would be hearing about a breakthough of this magnitude in a forum like this. Even if the device was impractical for energy production-- even if it just produced a milliwatt more than it used, it would be front page news and it would be on the cover of every science magazine in the world.
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  #20  
Old 08-30-1999, 04:49 PM
Undead Dude Undead Dude is offline
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Quote:
Why no patent? They are a waste of money. You have to enforce it on your own. -- JimFox
LOL!!

Okay, this is getting wackier. I think the absurdity of this is obvious. If you invent something that is really going to make money, and you don't patent it, someone else will patent it and force you to stop making it!
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  #21  
Old 08-30-1999, 05:59 PM
JimFox JimFox is offline
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Undead,

I meet with the dude who invented this stuff in a couple of days, B4 I go to Burning Man. Again I think Caddilac (sic) has the patent, I will research it. Believe me, the tailpipe (exhaust pipe) of a car that runs on this pendulum device, is cold to the touch. The car runs fine.
I will try to have a WEB site with more info on this Pendulum device at, give me until Thursday though. http://www.cyberthings.com/pendulum
This is easy.
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  #22  
Old 08-30-1999, 06:14 PM
Undead Dude Undead Dude is offline
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And again, I said that I don't really care about the pendulum device. The only things I have commented on are teh generator, and your blanket statement about patents.
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  #23  
Old 08-30-1999, 06:20 PM
JimFox JimFox is offline
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Undead,

Only the inventor of a product can patent it. So nobody else can patent it.
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  #24  
Old 08-30-1999, 06:33 PM
Markxxx Markxxx is offline
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What's to stop someone from lying and saying he invented it?
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  #25  
Old 08-30-1999, 06:39 PM
Undead Dude Undead Dude is offline
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If someone else manages to patent your invention, you are now the one responsible for proving that you invented it first. I think that makes a patent pretty important for any product that has the potential of making very large amounts of money.
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  #26  
Old 08-31-1999, 01:24 AM
JimFox JimFox is offline
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John,
It works. You can buy one. It doesn't turn of the spark plugs but turns of the injectors, sorry about that. When you accelerate it powers all injectors, when you cruise, it powers 1/2 of them, when you idle, even less. Believe me, I was a skeptic too.
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  #27  
Old 09-11-1999, 11:54 AM
Nickrz Nickrz is offline
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Darnit.. I wanted to buy one of those pendulum thingies. Jim's site seems to have run out of gas:

So Sorry
-------------------
This page will be complete when I get back from Burning Man
And meet with Sunny, the inventor of
The Pendulum & The Generator.
Around Sept 6th, 1999
Jim Fox
415-454-0777
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  #28  
Old 09-12-1999, 01:43 AM
AuraSeer AuraSeer is offline
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FTR, there are prototype automobiles that reportedly get almost 100 MPG. They don't use an internal combustion engine to do it, though. They have a gas turbine which is used to generate electricity, which powers 4 small electric motors.

The article I saw used the descriptive term "hybrid electric vehicle", and also the buzzword "hypercar". I'll try to find the cite, if anyone cares.

------------------
Of course I don't fit in; I'm part of a better puzzle.
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