So I'm Finally Watching Buffy... [Progressive unboxed spoilers]

[olivesmarch4th]

My husband and I are finally watching Buffy to see what all the fuss is about.

I don't know exactly how to describe my reaction to this show. You know how when you first see Firefly, you're like, ''Holy shit, this is genius, this is amazing, this is rocking my face off, earth-shattering television?''

Well, that's exactly how I don't feel watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand me though--I'm definitely hooked. It's weird, funny, campy, somewhat cleverly satirical and is getting better (We're on Season 2, Episode 5, just finished the ''Halloween'' episode where everyone turned into their costume... creative.) The characters are fun, I love Willow, I always loved that actress long before I tried watching the Buffy show. And Giles makes me swoony. Even Angel's growing on me now that he says more than two words per episode.

I was just under the impression I was in for an epic and complex experience that would defy my previous conceptualization of television. Instead, not gonna lie, I'm getting heavy-handed writing, inconsistent acting and some of the most ridiculous plot-points known to man. I mean, the body count is rising so fast at Sunnydale High School I don't know why any parent in their right mind would keep their child matriculated there.

SPOILER:

The hyena students ate the principal? Really?

No really, I love it. I just don't love it the way I love Battlestar Galactica or DS9, or, for that matter, Firefly.

I love it the way I loved Are You Afraid of the Dark? when I was a kid. A love no less real, but different, a love built upon a foundation of ridiculous plot points and lovable, predictable characters. Buffy is the popcorn of the television world, but it's the good popcorn, with the drizzly butter and the perfect amount of salt and maybe a dash of Parmesan cheese.

Am I wrong?

[Miller]

What season are you on?

[Alessan]

She said Season 2, episode 5, AKA just before the shit hits the fan.

olivesmarch4th - finish the season, and then we'll talk.

[olivesmarch4th]

Originally Posted by Miller

What season are you on?

The beginning of Season Two.

SPOILER:

They just introduced Spike, and he killed the Anointed One and has been trying unsuccessfully (about three times now) to kill the slayer.

[olivesmarch4th]

Originally Posted by Alessan

She said Season 2, episode 5, AKA just before the shit hits the fan.

olivesmarch4th - finish the season, and then we'll talk.

Sweet. I was hoping for an answer like this.

[kathmandu]

Originally Posted by Alessan

olivesmarch4th - finish the season, and then we'll talk.

Seconded. I liked the series at the beginning, but loved it towards the end of season 2.

[JohnnyMac]

I always took it as a comedy. They know there are too many deaths in their high school - I mean the students, in the school, they know. It's all acknowledged within the show and used comedically - I agree there are places that made me wonder about it, but in the end, that show never missed a step.

[Lightnin']

Yeah, like most Whedon shows (with the notable exception of Firefly, of course), it takes a bit for the show to hit its stride. Season 1, and a good bit of season 2, are merely good TV.

Let us know when you see Hush, or the musical. I envy anyone who gets to watch those for the first time.

[lissener]

You will never find a bigger Buffy booster than me--I will state categorically that it's the greatest series in the history of American television--but I agree 100% with your assessment of the first couple seasons. The epic and complex experience that will defy your previous conceptualization of television develops over the life of the series. You'll get there, just stick with it.

In general terms, it develops gradually from smart teen comedy to brilliant and layered examination of the nature of being human over a pretty consistent arc.

[silenus]

Like they said...wait for it. In about 6 episodes you will understand.

[The Devil's Grandmother]

Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th

And Giles makes me swoony.

If you like the actor, as well as Giles, find the Masterpiece theatre version of Persuasion he was in. Even Capitan Tightpants got nuthin' on Giles in a frock coat.

I'll be in mah bunk.

[Spatial Rift 47]

I'm catching up on Buffy too, and I have a bit more of a challenge for all the Buffy boosters that have chimed in so far. You see, a little while back I went through all of seasons 1 and 2. At the end of season two, when the shit hit the fan, my reaction was ...

SPOILER:

"Oh, she did it. Okay." The girl I was dating at the time, a long time Buffy fan who was watching it with me, said she still can't watch Angel's death without tearing up. I got no emotional reaction from it. It's like Joss' depiction of Angel returning to his soulful self failed to register, coupled with there being no doubt in my mind that the good guys would win.

After two or so years of not watching, I'm now watching season 3. It is better than 1 and 2, and it's very good, but I'm still where olives is. It's just not earth-shattering.

[needscoffee]

I am jealous! The ride is just beginning.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Spatial Rift 47

I'm catching up on Buffy too, and I have a bit more of a challenge for all the Buffy boosters that have chimed in so far. You see, a little while back I went through all of seasons 1 and 2. At the end of season two, when the shit hit the fan, my reaction was ...

SPOILER:

"Oh, she did it. Okay." The girl I was dating at the time, a long time Buffy fan who was watching it with me, said she still can't watch Angel's death without tearing up. I got no emotional reaction from it. It's like Joss' depiction of Angel returning to his soulful self failed to register, coupled with there being no doubt in my mind that the good guys would win.

After two or so years of not watching, I'm now watching season 3. It is better than 1 and 2, and it's very good, but I'm still where olives is. It's just not earth-shattering.

As you'll note, even the series' biggest fans were at the same point after season 2. In other words, if all you've seen so far is the first two seasons, you still haven't seen what made the show really great.

[choie]

...Or, y'know, you just might not have your world rocked.

I agree that the series grows quite a bit by the end of season 2, and seasons 3 and 5 include some terrific TV, but don't be surprised if you're not worshipping at the Whedon throne like everyone else. OTOH, you're clearly a huge Firefly fan, so perhaps his style is right up your alley.

Me, I enjoy a lot of Buffy and there are episodes that are extraordinarily emotional, funny, scary and imaginative, but it didn't change the way I view TV or anything orgasmic the way some fans describe it. (I viewed it "live," during its original run, so this isn't the viewpoint of someone who just doesn't "get" how gamechanging the series was in context of its original airing -- like a neophyte watching Casablanca and saying "I don't see what's so special, every other line was a cliche!") I just find a lot of Whedon's writing a bit overfond of its own cleverness. It is often clever, but not always as much as it thinks it is. If that makes any sense...

But its ambition is admirable, and it's certainly gripping melodrama. Definitely don't judge it until you hit Becoming! I just think the unbelievably grandiose praise from its enthusiastic fans may actually hurt the show a bit. People may end up expecting more than the show... hell, any show... can deliver. I think it'd be a shame to be disappointed because it didn't live up to the overblown hyperbole of its fans, rather than just enjoying the show on its own merits. Best to come to it, uh, Tabula Rasa.

[Southern Yankee]

The season 2 finale is probably my fave episode. Keep watching.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by choie

worshipping at the Whedon throne like everyone else
orgasmic the way some fans describe it
unbelievably grandiose praise from its enthusiastic fans
overblown hyperbole of its fans

It's also possible to enjoy it without denigrating, with patronizing and condescending language, those whose opinions differ from yours.

Lots of people like things I don't like, or don't like as much; lots of things that I just get the appeal of have huge followings. I don't find myself needing to belittle their opinions in order to feel better about my own.

As often as I see people waxing lyrical in their appreciation of Whedon, just as frequently I see others putting them down for it. Some people want to know what's with the fervency of Whedon fans; I want to know what's with the vitriol of people who don't count themselves as such?

[choie]

Originally Posted by lissener

It's also possible to enjoy it without denigrating, with patronizing and condescending language, those whose opinions differ from yours.

Lots of people like things I don't like, or don't like as much; lots of things that I just get the appeal of have huge followings. I don't find myself needing to belittle their opinions in order to feel better about my own.

As often as I see people waxing lyrical in their appreciation of Whedon, just as frequently I see others putting them down for it. Some people want to know what's with the fervency of Whedon fans; I want to know what's with the vitriol of people who don't count themselves as such?

This, from you?!!! Oh man. That's trippy. Well, I agree that I should apologize for insulting anyone by saying they worship at Whedon's throne. That was condescending. Though I find it hard to believe what I said constitutes vitriol. I mean... come on now. Let's get some perspective here. The rest, well, sorry, but the praise does seem like hyperbole to me.

(Christ, and I even said I like the show.)

[pepperlandgirl]

By the end of BtVS, I was tired of BtVS. Angel is the show of my heart and will always rank as my favorite television show of all time, but man did I hate Buffy. For like six years. Then about 2 weeks ago, my sister rewatched about 25 episodes and I watched them with her. Holy shit, I love that fucking show! Seeing it with fresh eyes has been a real treat.

I think BtVS really starts getting good after about episode 13 or 14 of S2. And from there, I think there's a steady improvement-- the stories, characters, and themes growing increasingly complex. I still have a few complaints about it (nothing that I'd want to get into in this thread), but it's got so many strengths. For me, season 5 is probably the finest season of any tv show, ever (it's certainly the one I've watched the most).

[lissener]

Originally Posted by choie

This, from you?!!!

That meme won't fly; no one's ever been able to find a cite. Whenever I ask for one I get two possible responses: silence, and apology. It's just a meme that gets serially quoted as its own only evidence. But at least it gives you an excuse to be apparently unable to discuss this topic except in personally insulting terms.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl

By the end of BtVS, I was tired of BtVS. Angel is the show of my heart and will always rank as my favorite television show of all time, but man did I hate Buffy. For like six years. Then about 2 weeks ago, my sister rewatched about 25 episodes and I watched them with her. Holy shit, I love that fucking show! Seeing it with fresh eyes has been a real treat.

I think BtVS really starts getting good after about episode 13 or 14 of S2. And from there, I think there's a steady improvement-- the stories, characters, and themes growing increasingly complex. I still have a few complaints about it (nothing that I'd want to get into in this thread), but it's got so many strengths. For me, season 5 is probably the finest season of any tv show, ever (it's certainly the one I've watched the most).

Yeah a lot of people lost some enthusiasm for the show in the last couple of seasons, when it

SPOILER:

"went dark." In my opinion, that's when the show grew up, and went from good teevee to great literature.

[pepperlandgirl]

Yes, that pretty much describes my situation-

SPOILER:

losing enthusiasm throughout S6 and S7. But we basically rewatched S7 recently, and I was utterly charmed by it. This time around, i really felt like Buffy had learned the lessons from S6. We tried to rewatch S6 too, but it's still too, well, painful. I identify too much with Buffy's sense of hopelessness right now, I think

[BigT]

The only episode I've seen is the musical episode. Are the other ones better? Is any of the show like Angel, which I actually liked?

[silenus]

"Hush" is amazing. "The Body" is a work of Art so powerful that I can't watch it.

So, yeah.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by BigT

The only episode I've seen is the musical episode. Are the other ones better? Is any of the show like Angel, which I actually liked?

The musical episode works best if you watch it in context; out of context I would imagine it would be about a solid hour of WTF. In context, it interweaves and solidifies a huge number of ongoing arcs.

[Lakai]

I came in here to say what Alessan posted.

BTVS isn't for everyone, but if you liked what you saw so far then things can only get better. Innocence (ep. 14) is probably the most famous episode in season two. My favorite episode of the series is Passions which is at episode number 17.

Once you get pass those let us know what you think.

I do enjoy seeing the "I just watched Firefly/BTVS" threads pop up every week or so. We're doing good work here guys, keep spreading the message.

[Mahaloth]

Oh, yeah, you will love it.

It gets way better from where you are at. Haloween is one of the first cute and good ones, but it is far surpassed later.

Stick with it.

[El_Kabong]

I never saw it during its orginal run, and have only seen seasons 1-3 so far, but I think it's generally brilliant, even if I'm not quite ready to say it's The Best TV Ever Made. Although most people find halfway through Season two is the turning point, for me it was the final ep of season 1 and "When She was Bad", the season 2 opener (er, I think), that cemented it for me. Some powerful stuff there.

One aspect that I think maybe obscures the greatness of this show, is that selling the plots often relies on heavy usage of special effects that frankly, the producers didn't have the budget or technology to do properly. Seeing yet another ropey computer-assisted morph or crappy makeup job tended to take me right out of the story, even if I was consciously making allowances for these limitations.

[wintertime]

I loved BtVS back then and enjoyed watching the seasons 2-5 on DVD, but, all in all, I prefer Angel, even though I was either bored or annoyed, mostly both at the same time, by the character on Buffy.

But the surrounding characters worked so well that Angel had the time to grow on me. And though the fifth season of Buffy deserves the praise it gets, it doesn't stand a chance against Angel's fourth, imo.

Sure, they failed there -- but they did so ambitiously, trying to tell a seriously epic tale.

Of course, neither BtVS nor Angel play in the same league Firefly does .. oh well, never mind.

You'll quite probably enjoy the arcs of Buffy's seasons 3-5 the most and many episodes from all seasons are great tv (I have always been fond of "Phases", "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" and "Killed by Death" from the season you're currently watching), but the last two seasons are an atrocity, despite the musical and the occasional gem. But who knows? You might like them the most. Stranger things have happened.

Had to add at least one quote from the mentioned episodes (Killed by Death):

Buffy (in a hospital bed): Homework.
Willow: It's my way of saying get well soon.
Buffy: You know, chocolate says that even better.
Willow: I did all your assignments. All you have to do is sign your name.
Buffy: Chocolate means nothing to me.

[Spatial Rift 47]

Originally Posted by lissener

As you'll note, even the series' biggest fans were at the same point after season 2. In other words, if all you've seen so far is the first two seasons, you still haven't seen what made the show really great.

No, I have seen at this point ten or eleven episodes of season three. Lack of shattered earth. I will note that I had the same reaction to Firefly as olives did.

[silenus]

Originally Posted by Spatial Rift 47

No, I have seen at this point ten or eleven episodes of season three. Lack of shattered earth. I will note that I had the same reaction to Firefly as olives did.

Eh. No biggie. Different strokes, and all that. Joss failed miserably with me when he did Dollhouse.

[Zsofia]

I agree with you entirely about the show - it's not earth-shattering, just fun. The best season is the one with the Mayor (3?) and after that, meh.

[Fenris]

Without spoilering anything, I gotta say that while I loved seasons 2, 3 and 5 (plus parts of season 4--any non-arc episodes. The arc/big bad of season 4 sucked bigtime), I had a couple of major issues that I'll share.

1) There's no real character growth. Any change is merely the illusion of change and most character's personalities will end up right back where they started in terms of growth. (many people will disagree vociferously.)

2) Joss cannot plot a story-arc to save his life...season 5 is the exception....most seasons open with a few strong arc stories, then have a bunch of monster-du-jour episodes (some of which are abso-frickin'-lutely magnificent--"Hush" for example), then the last 4 or 5 episodes are desperate arc-episodes where they try to cram in all the stuff that should have been spread out among the 14 episodes in-between. Season 4 is terrible this way. I would personally pay $100 for a 24 episode mini-series where JMS (of Babylon 5) collaborated with Joss--they jointly come up with the concept, JMS plots out the arc and determines what happens in each episode, then they write the episode together with Joss doing the majority of the dialogue.

3) Someone on the show (Joss, whatshername-Nixon? Noxon?) has major relationship issues. And it shows.

It's absolutely worth watching the series, but keep those issues in mind.

[melodyharmonius]

OK - I have a question. Before you started watching the series, did you watch the original movie?

Because you have to watch the original movie and how bad that was, to understand how much of a row Whedon had to hoe to prove he was not Pee Wee Herman fodder.

I forced my bf to watch the movie right before we started watching seasons 1 & 2. Then he understood why it was just not worth comparing.

(oh, and when we chronologically got to where Angel started - we have now started watching them together - 1 BtvS, 1 Angel - so you get all the cross-over references.)

[Minnie Luna]

I just finished re-watching the episodes in order. Nathan Fillion is awesome!!

BtVS will always be one of my favorite shows. Come back and tell us what you think after you finish this season, olives. I love seeing the reaction of people to seeing it with fresh eyes.

Season 5 and Season 3 are probably my favorites, but there are so many great single episodes in other seasons as well.

[wintertime]

Originally Posted by silenus

Eh. No biggie. Different strokes, and all that. Joss failed miserably with me when he did Dollhouse.

Same here. Some things on the screen can be sick and entertaining but that one wasn't. Though I wonder if it might work on DVD ..

The best season is the one with the Mayor (3?) and after that, meh. -- Zsofia

The Mayor was the best villain they ever had, Eliza Dushku was surprisingly good as Faith and the whole ensemble had interesting things going on, even Xander.

The Prom
Anya (former vengeance demon for scorned women, now highschool girl): You know, you can laugh, but I have witnessed a millennium of treachery and oppression from the males of the species. And I have nothing but contempt for the whole libidinous lot of them.
Xander: Then why are you talking to me?
Anya: I don't have a date for the prom.
Xander: Well, gosh. I wonder why not? It couldn't have anything to do with your sales pitch.
Anya: Men are evil. Will you go with me?
Xander: One of us is very confused, and I honestly don't know which.

[silenus]

Originally Posted by Fenris

Without spoilering anything, I gotta say that while I loved seasons 2, 3 and 5 (plus parts of season 4--any non-arc episodes. The arc/big bad of season 4 sucked bigtime), I had a couple of major issues that I'll share.

1) There's no real character growth. Any change is merely the illusion of change and most character's personalities will end up right back where they started in terms of growth. (many people will disagree vociferously.)

2) Joss cannot plot a story-arc to save his life...season 5 is the exception....most seasons open with a few strong arc stories, then have a bunch of monster-du-jour episodes (some of which are abso-frickin'-lutely magnificent--"Hush" for example), then the last 4 or 5 episodes are desperate arc-episodes where they try to cram in all the stuff that should have been spread out among the 14 episodes in-between. Season 4 is terrible this way. I would personally pay $100 for a 24 episode mini-series where JMS (of Babylon 5) collaborated with Joss--they jointly come up with the concept, JMS plots out the arc and determines what happens in each episode, then they write the episode together with Joss doing the majority of the dialogue.

3) Someone on the show (Joss, whatshername-Nixon? Noxon?) has major relationship issues. And it shows.

It's absolutely worth watching the series, but keep those issues in mind.

Well, Fenris is almost totally wrong here.

Season 4 was a great season. It faced the problem of shifting focus from high school to college, but it did it well. The Big Bad was appropriate as well.

1) I disagree vociferously.

2) I disagree with the first part, but would sell my mother to the Arabs if Joss and JMS would collaborate on a project.

3) Marti Noxon. P-tooey!

[Minnie Luna]

Fenris

I bought an episode guide off of Amazon a couple of years ago. http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Slayer-Unofficial-Unauthorized-Episode/dp/B000HT2OMG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273673516&sr=8-3

It is out of print, but available used. In it, the author speaks to Noxon's writing style as well as the other writers. You might enjoy it.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by silenus

Well, Fenris is almost totally wrong here.

Season 4 was a great season. It faced the problem of shifting focus from high school to college, but it did it well. The Big Bad was appropriate as well.

Disagree--Season four had a bunch of great episodes, but I hated the uber-lame bigbad and the arc itself was uber-lame.

SPOILER:

The lady professor was forgotten until--oops--she became a cult leader for instance.

Also the silly big-bad robot-demon was just embarrassing.

Season 5 was (to me) the best season--Glory just rocked as a bad-guy, Willow finally comes into her own, the Xander/Anya thing was never better and the finale "
SHE SAVED THE WORLD

A LOT"

was breathtakingly good. The episode where mom dies is so heartbreaking I have trouble watching it and as far as I'm concerned, that was the last episode.

1) I disagree vociferously.

See?

For me, the easiest example I can give is

SPOILER:

Xander. There's absolutely no excuse what was done to him in seasons 6 and 7. He grew up and became a responsible adult...until they decided to reboot the character back to his irresponsible teen-age self when he stood Anya up at the alter.

Also Buffy never actually learns to make good relationship choices (Spike rapes her and that makes her like rough sex?!) or to stand up for herself (except at the very, VERY end of the show....she should have been telling the Watcher's Council to go screw themselves back around S4 or so.)

Willow never learns to be assertive (because assertive means that you go nuts, mess with the minds of your friends and try to take over the world)

[Zsofia]

Oh, come on. Season 4 was stupid. Riley? Riley? And no, it did not weather the shift to college. At all. It did a terrible job and totally never got back on its feet. Urgh.

Not to mention, man, Joss has serious daddy issues. "Guess what, it's another bad dad!" I enjoyed the show, don't get me wrong, but it has serious flaws. Every time we're watching something else and somebody turns out to have a Bad Dad we always muse whether Joss Whedon was somehow involved. (Deadwood, we're looking at you.)

[wintertime]

One of the developments starting during the seasons 4/5 I didn't like at all was the

SPOILER:

idea that vampires can choose to NOT be vicious predators if someone takes the time to "socialize" them properly. It turned the Slayer pretty much into a mass murderer who killed indiscriminately everyone who belonged to a certain "ethnicity", regardless of their acts.

It also made you wonder what was wrong with Liam/Angel/Angelus. If the vampire Spike could choose even without a soul not to kill and feed on humans, why wasn't the other guy, the so called hero, able to do so?

Btw, did they ever explain why Anya was afraid of

SPOILER:

bunnies?

I can't remember.

[DianaG]

Originally Posted by Fenris

For me, the easiest example I can give is

SPOILER:

Also Buffy never actually learns to make good relationship choices (Spike rapes her and that makes her like rough sex?!) or to stand up for herself (except at the very, VERY end of the show....she should have been telling the Watcher's Council to go screw themselves back around S4 or so.)

SPOILER:

Huh? Buffy was having rough sex with Spike all season long. She stopped doing that, and THEN he raped her.

And she told the Watcher's Council to screw in Season 3. Never saw them again until S5 when she needed their help (albeit not as bad as they needed hers) with Glory.

And I'll just type this here so that something in this post is visible.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by DianaG

SPOILER:

Huh? Buffy was having rough sex with Spike all season long. She stopped doing that, and THEN he raped her.

And she told the Watcher's Council to screw in Season 3. Never saw them again until S5 when she needed their help (albeit not as bad as they needed hers) with Glory.

And I'll just type this here so that something in this post is visible.

SPOILER:

Are you sure? I only saw it the one time, but I'd swear it was the other way round: they were teasing and being 'naughty', then suddenly he rapes her, she takes a few episodes to get over it and then they start having creepy rough sex. Am I misremembering?

Ditto on fake sentence for visiblity.

[wintertime]

Originally Posted by Fenris

SPOILER:

Are you sure? I only saw it the one time, but I'd swear it was the other way round: they were teasing and being 'naughty', then suddenly he rapes her, she takes a few episodes to get over it and then they start having creepy rough sex. Am I misremembering?

SPOILER:

You're misremembering. They have sex for the first time in "Smashed" (ep. 9); the rape happens in ep. 19, "Seeing Red".

[JohnT]

SPOILER:

I didn't get that he actually raped her... are we talking about the scene in the bathroom?

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by JohnT

SPOILER:

I didn't get that he actually raped her... are we talking about the scene in the bathroom?

Yup. That would be the scene.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Fenris

Yup. That would be the scene.

SPOILER:

Yes, that was the scene that ended their sexual relationship, not kindled it.

Lorem ipsum.

[olivesmarch4th]

Originally Posted by melodyharmonius

OK - I have a question. Before you started watching the series, did you watch the original movie?

I watched the original movie a loooong time ago, when I was a kid, and yes, it was terrible.

Ok, just finished Episode 8. I will definitely be back after watching some more.

[appleciders]

I agree with the notion that the tipping point is mid-season 2. Season 1 is campy and bad without Whedon's usual witty banter. By the middle of 2, it's a lot better, and 3 is good TV. It's not groundbreaking, nor so good as Firefly, but worth watching.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by wintertime

One of the developments starting during the seasons 4/5 I didn't like at all was the

SPOILER:

idea that vampires can choose to NOT be vicious predators if someone takes the time to "socialize" them properly. It turned the Slayer pretty much into a mass murderer who killed indiscriminately everyone who belonged to a certain "ethnicity", regardless of their acts.

It also made you wonder what was wrong with Liam/Angel/Angelus. If the vampire Spike could choose even without a soul not to kill and feed on humans, why wasn't the other guy, the so called hero, able to do so?

That's not at all what happened.

SPOILER:

Spike had a device implanted in his brain that made it impossible for him to hurt humans. His change of lifestyle sprang from that, not from any choice.