Can you really hear the "time" of a song?

[Jinx]

For my own curiosity, can you really hear a difference between 4/4 time, 3/4 time, etc? Is there really a difference, or is it academic...simply dividing the correct quantities of notes into measures on the written page. As a listener, it all sounds like a string of notes, regardless. Maybe someone can give me some examples in pop or classical music to hear the differences.

[Chronos]

The different notes in a measure will have different emphasis. In 4/4, the strongest emphasis is on the first beat of a measure, with a secondary emphasis on the third beat, so if you hear something going DUM dum Dum dum DUM dum Dum dum, then it's probably in 4/4. In 3/4, the strongest emphasis is on the first beat without a secondary emphasis, so if you hear something going DUM dum dum DUM dum dum, then it's probably in 3/4. In addition, there's often a repeating motif of some sort with a period of one measure (even if not in the melody, then usually in the bass line), which can be a clue as to the time signature.

Now, it's not always possible to distinguish between pairs of 2/4 measure and 4/4, or between pairs of 3/4 and 6/8, but the difference between 4/4 and 3/4 is pretty obvious.

[Robot Arm]

I can definitely hear it.

Watch this scene from Stripes, where they're marching and John and Russell start singing "Doo Wah Diddy". The melody is anchored by the first beat in each measure.

THERE she was, just-a
WALKin' down the street, singin'
DOO wah diddy diddy
DUM diddy doo

The footsteps are the beat (or should be, it's a little ragged). The melody doesn't sound like a pattern, except that it always hits that first beat. If you count along with it, it's ONE-two-three-four. I guess I've been doing it so long, I can't imagine how anyone doesn't hear it.

[the lone cashew]

Exactly what Chronos said. (Edited to add, also what Robot Arm said too) Waltzes are a good example of 3/4 and 6/8 music. The beat has an obvious one two three - one two three - like a pulse.

Some groups have made a signature of odd times, October Project is one of those. I couldn't find the song I wanted by them, (Deep as it Goes) but here's one of theirs with an odd time. See if you can count it out, try tapping your foot and figure out the meter they are using. October Project Always

Here's one of theirs in 4/4, you can count out the beats and it has a 4 time pulse and repeat.
October Project Return to Me

Dave Brubeck is a famous pianist that did several songs in odd time frames. His most famous classic performed is Take Five! which is in 5/4 time. Try a quick listen to this one, clap or tap along and you can see and feel the 5/4 meter.

[pulykamell]

Here's Oom Pah Pah! from Oliver cued up to the chorus, where the 3/4 is stressed probably as much as it's possible to stress 3/4. Count it in your head: it's "1-2-3,1-2-3,1-2-3,1-2-3." You can't really count "1-2-3-4,1-2-3-4,1-2-3-4" (as 4/4) without ending up in really awkward beats on the one.

[AWB]

To really mess you up, try to find the beat in the first part of "Money" by Pink Floyd.

It's written in 7/4

And there's a Rush song (forgot which) is either in 5/4 or 2/4 and 3/4 alternating.

[AWB]

To really mess you up, try to find the beat in the first part of "Money" by Pink Floyd.

It's written in 7/4

And there's a Rush songs in 7/4: The Spirit of Radio
and 7/8:
Tom Sawyer (instrumental part)
La Villa Strangiato

[the lone cashew]

I thought Spirit of the Radio was in 4/4, same thing with La Villa, and Sawyer, I used to drum those. Are you certain of the meters for those songs?
I think though the other song you're thinking of by Rush is Natural Science from the album Permanent Waves.

[Robot Arm]

Shouldn't we make sure the OP has got the basics before we start listing all the esoteric time signatures we can think of.

[Heart Full of Neutrality]

Here's a web page with a sortable list of songs in time signatures other than 4/4:

http://aufrecht.org/songs/

[rowrrbazzle]

"America" from "West Side Story" famously switches between 6/8 and 3/4. "I like to be in A-" is in 6/8, "-mer-i-ca" is in 3/4. And just before that you can hear the same switches in the music and the clapping. This exact pattern persists throughout the song except for a few spots, the discovery of which is left as an exercise to the listener.

[Zebra]

4/4 time (four four time) = boom chick boom chick

3/4 time = boom chick chick

6/9 time = boom chicka bow wow

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

Shouldn't we make sure the OP has got the basics before we start listing all the esoteric time signatures we can think of.

I know! Slow down guys! Let's start with 3/4 and 4/4 and go from there. If Jinx is having trouble hearing 3/4 and 4/4, 7/4 and the alternating 3/4-6/8 in America is definitely not going to clarify matters.

[GuanoLad]

I love it when I encounter a song in 5/4, like Take 5 or Mission Impossible. I heard another recently, but can't recall what it was.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by GuanoLad

I love it when I encounter a song in 5/4, like Take 5 or Mission Impossible. I heard another recently, but can't recall what it was.

I've brought it up before, but the minor pop hit by the Juliana Hatflied Three is in 5/4.

[pulykamell]

Or WTF? by OK Go, if you mean the song was recent, too.

[GuanoLad]

No, not OK Go. Cool video, by the way. As usual, from those guys.

I think it was an instrumental on a movie soundtrack.

[panamajack]

Here's an example of the same song arranged with different time signatures.

"Big C", as played by the Cal Band (UC Berkeley)
It's in 4. But there's also a stronger accent on alternate beats, so that it almost feels like a slow 2.

"Big C", as played by the Cal Aggie Marching Band (UC Davis)
This arrangement is 6/8 (probably most noticeable in the flute/clarinet parts). You can still detect a broader 2-feel, but now there are 6 smaller beats in the same amount of time that took 2 in the first arrangement.

For further comparison, there's the UCLA fight song based on Big C :
"Sons of Westwood" played by the UCLA Bruin Marching Band.

It's the same melody, played in 4 as the Cal version, but with each beat emphasized more evenly. You don't get the "slow 2" feel as much in this one.

[pulykamell]

Oh, boy. I didn't want to bring this up in this thread quite yet, (as I was afraid of confusing the OP) but here's some more examples from a recent Straight Dope thread I put up:

Originally Posted by pulykamell

OK, this isn't going to win any Grammies anytime soon, but I whipped up some examples quickly in Garage Band. Forgive the cheesy quality of the sounds and the recording, but it should help illustrate what I'm talking about.

I've used "Can't Help Falling in Love" as my example.

Here it is in 12/8 time. (How Elvis recorded it.)

Here it is with a 3/4 feel. (Sorry, there's a little bit of silence I forgot to delete from the beginning here.)

The 12/8 and 3/4 example have exactly the same organ melody line. I literally cut and pasted the 12/8 example into the 3/4 example. I just played drums and piano with a different feel under the melody line so you can hear the difference.

Here it is with a true 4/4.

And, just for fun, here's what it might sound like in 5/8.

The 3/4 and 4/4 examples should be most useful for the OP at the moment. Disregard the 12/8 and the 5/8 unless you're curious.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by AWB

To really mess you up, try to find the beat in the first part of "Money" by Pink Floyd.

I'm sure it's hard to figure out the time signature of Money if you've never done it before, but I think it's pretty easy for someone with an untrained ear to feel where the one is. To the OP I'd say it's something you feel more than you hear. If you find your foot tapping along with a piece of music, or for that matter if you've ever clapped along, then you're able to find a down beat.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I'm sure it's hard to figure out the time signature of Money if you've never done it before, but I think it's pretty easy for someone with an untrained ear to feel where the one is. To the OP I'd say it's something you feel more than you hear. If you find your foot tapping along with a piece of music, or for that matter if you've ever clapped along, then you're able to find a down beat.

Except you're "supposed" to clap on the up beats, and stomp on the down beats. Though not at the same time unless you're going for some old time southern gospel.

Anyways, if you want an example of the difference between 3/4 and 4/4, try listening to The Star-Spangled Banner. You can mathematically divide it into 4/4, but you'll find it makes more sense in 3/4.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by BigT

Except you're "supposed" to clap on the up beats, and stomp on the down beats.

Well, the old stereotype is the white people clap on the downbeat and three, while black people clap on the back beat (two and four in 4/4 time). Where you feel and clap the beats is a matter of tradition. European music tradition stresses the one and three. African-American music mostly emphasizes the two and four.

Here's kind of a funny example" with Harry Connick, Jr. At the very beginning of the song, everybody is clapping on the 1 & 3. They continue clapping along normally, but Harry sneaks in an extra beat at around 0:41-0:42, to turn the audience's clapping back to accenting the 2 & 4.

[Alessan]

I don't know much musical theory, but mathematically speaking, shouldn't 6/8=3/4?

[the lone cashew]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

Shouldn't we make sure the OP has got the basics before we start listing all the esoteric time signatures we can think of.

The OP says "As a listener, it all sounds like a string of notes, regardless."


If this is true, they probably aren't going to get much from any of our examples.. so most of what is contributed here is for the benefit of anyone who's interested. And GuanoLad, I already posted Dave Brubeck's Take Five!

[Jragon]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I don't know much musical theory, but mathematically speaking, shouldn't 6/8=3/4?

No, 6/8 is a compound meter, 3/4 is simple. This means essentially that 3/4 is split into 3 beats, with 2 eighth notes each (or 3 quarter notes, which is what the 4 denotes). This means that 3/4 is ONE (and) two (and) three (and). 6/8 only has two "beats" with each "stress" (I can't think of the proper word there) falling on an eighth note so it's One (two three) Four (five six).

Theoretically you can convert between the two, but in practice the stress is going to be different.

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I don't know much musical theory, but mathematically speaking, shouldn't 6/8=3/4?

Well, mathematically, they're equivalent; but the beats get a different emphasis.

3/4 is classic waltz time, ONE-two-three.

6/8 is counted faster^* and gets a slight emphasis on the fourth beat, ONE-two-three-Four-five-six. Piano Man is in 6/8. Listen to the piano part at the beginning. There's a very basic 6/8 beat during the harmonica riff, then there's a piano theme for four measures, but still hitting the one and four beats, and then back to basic 6/8 when he starts singing.

Could it be written with quarter-notes instead of eighth-notes? Maybe, but I hear it as a six-note pattern instead of three (or, at least I think I do). My guitar book has Time Is On My Side in a fast 3/4 time; I don't know if I could explain exactly why.

(I tried to write the lyrics with emphasis like I did above, but I couldn't get it to be quite as clear. Some of the sylables fall right where they should, and sometimes you have to listen under that for the piano to carry the rhythm. That's why it's an art, I guess.)

* I remember from my orchestra days that there are some pieces in a fast 6/8 and some in very slow 6/8, but let's leave that aside for the moment.

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by the lone cashew

The OP says "As a listener, it all sounds like a string of notes, regardless."


If this is true, they probably aren't going to get much from any of our examples.

I think that's kind of a cop out.

I played in my school orchestra in junior high and high school, so I had a rather old-school approach to music. I haven't picked up a viola in years, but I started playing guitar about a year ago, and took a class. I don't think any of the other students had studied music before. They'd ask questions like "why is there no E-sharp?", or "what's a key?"

It was only a six-week course, I think, so there really wasn't time to give much of an answer for things like that. But it really got me thinking about how some things are absolutely fundamental to music theory, but so basic that no one thinks to explain them to people just starting out. I'm not sure anyone ever told me exactly what a key is, either.

So I'm not going to give up on the OP so quickly. I think these things can be explained, if someone wants to learn. The challenge is to find the perfect example that highlights a particular idea.

[Negative Lite]

There's an Open Yale course (Yale University lectures available online for free) called Listening to Music oriented toward the very basics of music appreciation. The third and fourth lectures cover this topic.

[Jragon]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

I played in my school orchestra in junior high and high school, so I had a rather old-school approach to music. I haven't picked up a viola in years, but I started playing guitar about a year ago, and took a class. I don't think any of the other students had studied music before. They'd ask questions like "why is there no E-sharp?", or "what's a key?"

The E-sharp question is actually rather simple. There is an E-sharp, it's just F. A better question may be, "why doesn't E#==Fb?" I'm not quite sure I could answer that one without a little more research on equal temperament and such, but it is a pretty fundamental question on enharmonics, one I had explained to me certainly within the first couple of years of playing.

The key question is much more interesting, and I'd say that fundamentally it's unanswerable to someone who hasn't already had a good deal of musical experience. The general answer would probably be that music, through tradition or human conditioning of what sounds "good" rely on things like chords. Certain chords sound better after certain other chords, and certain combinations of sequential changes ("chord progression") are satisfying. A key is, quite simply, a set of fundamental instructions for the center of this progression. At its lowest level, it's a bunch of simple instructions like "start here," "for a satisfying conclusion, end with this," and "for musical tension use this sort of structure." (Most of how this is accomplished has to do with cadences and non-chord tones in musical terminology). Of course, we could complicate the issue further by bringing church modes, intentional parallel 5ths/8ths, non-standard chords and whatnot into it, but at its fundamental level I think that's the basis of a what a "key" entails.

Also, I know you weren't really looking for an answer, but I felt like typing it out.

[Jman]

Originally Posted by GuanoLad

I love it when I encounter a song in 5/4, like Take 5 or Mission Impossible. I heard another recently, but can't recall what it was.

"My Wave" by Soundgarden is predominantly in 5/4. And it sounds awesome. One of the smoothest 5/4 songs I know (often, 5/4 can sound a little jarring at first, but My Wave doesn't do that for me). "Spoonman" has parts in 7/4 (or alternating 4/4, 3/4, whichever way you want to write it).

As to the OP, a lot will depend on your musical background. I can certainly hear the differences in time signature in a song. As was mentioned, determining between 2/4, 4/4 or cut time (2/2) can often be difficult just from listening, and picking up changes in time signature, especially if it's only for one measure, can sometimes be hard, but if it's got a strong beat, it's not hard to pick out a lone 3/4 measure in a mainly 4/4 song. 6/8 and 3/4 can sound alike, but I can often tell which is which by ear, but not always.

FTR - > been playing percussion/guitar/trumpet/piano for 21 years, so it helps.

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by Jragon

The key question is much more interesting, and I'd say that fundamentally it's unanswerable to someone who hasn't already had a good deal of musical experience.

If the question is "what is a key?", I think there's a simple answer that will do for a start. Most songs don't use all the notes on a keyboard (or all the frets on a guitar), just a certain subset of them. Start on C and play a full chromatic scale up to the next C and back down again. It doesn't sound like much. Then play a major scale, skipping over the black keys, and see if that sounds familiar to anyone.

Why are there keys? Answering that could take years.

[cornflakes]

Adding to the list, Tattooed Love Boys by the Pretenders alternates 7/4 and 8/4 in the verses (or it's in 4/4 with a beat dropped from the second measure, depending on how you're counting it.)

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

6/8 is counted faster^* and gets a slight emphasis on the fourth beat, ONE-two-three-Four-five-six. Piano Man is in 6/8. Listen to the piano part at the beginning. There's a very basic 6/8 beat during the harmonica riff, then there's a piano theme for four measures, but still hitting the one and four beats, and then back to basic 6/8 when he starts singing.

This is an interesting one. I was going to bring up "Piano Man" as an example of 3/4 before. It does have the stereotypical bass-chord-chord pattern in the piano that is typical of most waltzes. However, when the drums come in, they play more of a 6/8 pattern. Most sources I can find say it's a fast 3/4, and all the sheet music I've seen of it has it written in 3/4, but I'm more inclined to call it 6/8 in feel, especially because of those drums.

edit: I guess put it this way: the piano sounds like a fast 3/4 to me, the drums sound like a slow 6/8 to me.

[Zebra]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I don't know much musical theory, but mathematically speaking, shouldn't 6/8=3/4?

No because they are not fractions. They look like fractions but they aren't.


For 6/8 think of the Liberty Bell March by John Phillip Sousa or as you may think of it, the theme from Monty Python's Flying Circus.

You can not write in 3/4 because the second beat of a 6/8 is not as strong as the first. If you wrote it in 3/4 the second beat would become the first beat of a different measure and have an equal emphasis.

Also there is the structure.

Not a LAW but a rule is 8, 12 or 16 bar structure. If you converted it would have 16, 12, or 32 bars as it structure. You can break the rules of course but most people don't and most listeners would 'know' the difference.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Heart Full of Neutrality

Here's a web page with a sortable list of songs in time signatures other than 4/4:

http://aufrecht.org/songs/

That list doesn't include the song with possibly the most esoteric time signature ever: Thirteen, by Frank Zappa. (youtube link)

He explains the time signature to the audience in the first 15 seconds, and by the three minute mark the song heads into insane territory, magnified by this being a live performance.

This particular live performance is 15 minutes long, broken up into two parts. Part two is here.

For those who can't click the link, the count goes:

OneTwo
OneTwoThree
One...Two...Three...Four

The "OneTwoThree" takes the same amount of time as the "OneTwo", both of which are quicker than each of the last four beats.

[panache45]

Originally Posted by Zebra

6/9 time = boom chicka bow wow

6/9?

[Gagundathar]

Originally Posted by Zebra

...

6/9 time = boom chicka bow wow

So, is this why 'boom chicka bow wow' is sometimes associated with porno movies?

[Swallowed My Cellphone]

Listen to Shall We Dance from The King and I, parts get counted during the song.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Originally Posted by panache45

6/9?

Commonly found in the works of noted composers Connie Lingus and Phil Atio.

Get it now?

[Chronos]

Old concert-band joke:

A concert band has a new piece that they're working on, and it's written in 7/8 time. Nobody's ever seen 7/8 time before, and they're all trying to figure out how to count it. Finally, the drummer says, "Wait, I've figured it out! It's One-two-three-four-Five-six-se-ven!".

[MrSquishy]

Is it possible for a song to just not have a time signature (i.e. just not structured enough for the concept of time signature to be meaningful)? Or would it not be considered music in that case?

Just for trivia's sake, does anybody know what the time signature of Stan Rogers' Flowers Of Bermuda would be?

[cochrane]

Originally Posted by Zebra

4/4 time (four four time) = boom chick boom chick

3/4 time = boom chick chick

6/9 time = boom chicka bow wow

Originally Posted by panache45

6/9?

Methinks me heard a whooshing noise just overhead.

69

[panache45]

Originally Posted by cochrane

Methinks me heard a whooshing noise just overhead.

69

I have to confess I fell for that one . . . hard.

[Chronos]

Is it possible for a song to just not have a time signature (i.e. just not structured enough for the concept of time signature to be meaningful)? Or would it not be considered music in that case?

You'll occasionally see medieval chants in a Catholic church which have no time signature. I don't think I've ever seen it in modern music, though.

It should be mentioned for the OP's benefit, by the way, that for purposes of sound, it's mostly just the first number in the time signature that matters. The second will only affect how it's written down. So it's common to refer to a piece as being "in four", or "in three", or whatever, instead of "4/4" or "3/4".

[Don't Call Me Shirley]

Originally Posted by AWB

To really mess you up, try to find the beat in the first part of "Money" by Pink Floyd.

It's written in 7/4

And there's a Rush songs in 7/4: The Spirit of Radio
and 7/8:
Tom Sawyer (instrumental part)
La Villa Strangiato

The beginning of Subdivisions is in 7/8.

[appleciders]

I know very little about music, but I do enjoy dancing, so I usually hear the time of a song pretty clearly because some deep, dark part of me is trying to figure if I should waltz or foxtrot to it. Since that's damn near all that I know about music, I tend to notice very quickly.

Load that "Oom pah pah" clip that someone linked earlier. Tap your foot with the music. Now, notice that it feels natural to emphasize every third beat, as though those words were more important. It'll go like this:

OOM pah pah
OOM pah pah
THAT's how it
GOES
OOM pah pah
OOM pah pah
EVERY one knows
THEY can sup-
POSE what they
WANT to sup-
POSE
WHEN they hear
OOM pah pah!

[Hilarity N. Suze]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I don't know much musical theory, but mathematically speaking, shouldn't 6/8=3/4?

Don't think of it as a fraction. Think of it as a blueprint.

The first number (6) tells you how many beats in a measure.
The second number (8) tells you that an 8th note is one count.

So in three-four time, 3 beats per measure, quarter note is one count. (ONE two three ONE two three ONE two three)
In 6/8, six beats to the measure, 8th note is one count. (ONE two three four five six ONE two three four five six) (But often in 6/8 time there is a small stress on the 4 beat)
So you could write a 6-beat-per-bar thing with quarter notes, it would be 6/4. The music would look different but it would sound about the same.

[Indyellen]

Originally Posted by MrSquishy

Just for trivia's sake, does anybody know what the time signature of Stan Rogers' Flowers Of Bermuda would be?

I can't answer your question (although I'm curious about the answer), but I have to say I *love* this song. It's the most upbeat death song I've ever heard.

[YoudNeverGuess]

There are many different cues to give the listener a sense of a definite pulse or time-signature in music. This can depend most crudely on accents i.e one beat being given more emphasis through being louder, or it can be done through melody, where the 'home' notes in a given phrase where the melody hits on a harmony note rather than an 'inessential' passing or auxillary note on the beat, or texture where a bass line or percussion instrument plays a definite pulse or through harmony where there is more consonance on the beat. It's really quite complicated when you get down to the nitty gritty and there's no completely easy answer. The answers given above are really only a starting point to understanding rhythm in music. And whether it's 'really' possible to hear what time signature a piece is in? Yes, most definitely. Otherwise what would be the point in having them/ writing music this way? So others can read what you've written and reproduce the intended musical 'feel' of it in a performance.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Originally Posted by MrSquishy

Is it possible for a song to just not have a time signature (i.e. just not structured enough for the concept of time signature to be meaningful)? Or would it not be considered music in that case?

Just for trivia's sake, does anybody know what the time signature of Stan Rogers' Flowers Of Bermuda would be?

Yes, a song or portion of a song can be in "free" time. But in such a case, the music is usually largely improvisational, and not following any written notes with defined durations.

Judging by that sample, the Stan Rogers song is in 4/4, just with some tricky displaced accents here and there.