Legality of police roadblocks

[Smeghead]

This is something I've wondered about for a while.

I just got back from dropping my kid off at school. In the school parking lot were two cops, with their car lights flashing. They were stopping everyone as they came in to do a "seat belt check". Now, I know that in my state (Vermont), cops are allowed to pull people over if they think they don't have seat belts on, but I've never been clear on how it's legal for cops to stop everyone going by to check for compliance with some law.

This isn't exactly an egregious example of abuse of police power, but last year there was an incident here that I thought was much more questionable. A roadblock was set up on the freeway - the major traffic artery through this area - which I later found out was being run by the INS. They were stopping cars looking for illegal immigrants. Everyone had to produce a license showing they were US citizens or, if they weren't citizens, produce papers showing they had a legal right to be in the US. This wasn't just rumor. My university sent out an email warning all international students to start carrying their papers with them for this reason.

Again - how is this legal? I assume it is, because it's done all the time, and quite openly, but I don't get it. People are always making a stink about how cops pull people over for no reason or for really questionable reasons, so how can they just stop everyone for no reason at all?

[BorgHunter]

Roadblocks are perfectly legal on a federal level as long as they advance a "substantial government interest". State laws may vary.

[rbroome]

Originally Posted by Smeghead

This is something I've wondered about for a while.

I just got back from dropping my kid off at school. In the school parking lot were two cops, with their car lights flashing. They were stopping everyone as they came in to do a "seat belt check". Now, I know that in my state (Vermont), cops are allowed to pull people over if they think they don't have seat belts on, but I've never been clear on how it's legal for cops to stop everyone going by to check for compliance with some law.

This isn't exactly an egregious example of abuse of police power, but last year there was an incident here that I thought was much more questionable. A roadblock was set up on the freeway - the major traffic artery through this area - which I later found out was being run by the INS. They were stopping cars looking for illegal immigrants. Everyone had to produce a license showing they were US citizens or, if they weren't citizens, produce papers showing they had a legal right to be in the US. This wasn't just rumor. My university sent out an email warning all international students to start carrying their papers with them for this reason.

Again - how is this legal? I assume it is, because it's done all the time, and quite openly, but I don't get it. People are always making a stink about how cops pull people over for no reason or for really questionable reasons, so how can they just stop everyone for no reason at all?

I think the keyword is "everyone". If everyone is pulled over, then there is no discrimination. So if there is a real Government interest in the examination, the examination is being done in an evenhanded manner and I believe the courts find that OK.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by Smeghead

... last year there was an incident here that I thought was much more questionable. A roadblock was set up on the freeway - the major traffic artery through this area - which I later found out was being run by the INS. They were stopping cars looking for illegal immigrants. Everyone had to produce a license showing they were US citizens or, if they weren't citizens, produce papers showing they had a legal right to be in the US.

I must have missed it when the City of Los Angeles boycotted Vermont. How is the state doing since all of those rock bands won't perform in Vermont anymore?

And I think you mean ICE, not INS. They changed their name a while back.

[Al Bundy]

These things are constantly being challenged. You are stuck in the middle. Avoid the police if possible. In today's economy, police are looking for every nuance to make extra money to support the system. Seat belts are perfect for this because it's the officer's word against yours and the system always believes the officer, not you. In my area, police are constantly writing bogus tickets for all offenses for the revenue. Many jurisdictions are going to E-tickets where they merely put your license number and the offense code in and it spits out a ticket. You will get no warnings. They can complete a stop in five minutes. Your misery will last for years of increased insurance.

PS. Police don't want the public to see their actions. Three states have made it illegal to even take a picture of police in public without their prior permission, which they are not giving. These things are in court too, but the trend is clear. Your rights are constantly on the line.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by BorgHunter

Roadblocks are perfectly legal on a federal level as long as they advance a "substantial government interest". State laws may vary.

Just to clarify, "...on a federal level..." means that if a state does it, it does not violate the federal constitution. The case linked by BorgHunter, Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz, involved a DUI checkpoint run (obviously) by the state police in Michigan.

[Dinsdale]

Originally Posted by Smeghead

Again - how is this legal?

I greatly dislike roadblocks, and consider them but one factor of the disturbing trend in expanding police stop and search power. But the short answer is that they are legal because courts have pretty consistently held them to be constitutional. Anyone can disagree with the Supremes on just about any issue, but what the Supremes say IS the law.

[Wheelz]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

Anyone can disagree with the Supremes on just about any issue, but what the Supremes say IS the law.

So you really do have to Stop In The Name Of Love.

[klsdad]

So if Arizona set up road-blocks to check everyone re immigration status that would be ok?

[Omar Little]

So when the Border Patrol or other ICE officers stop people, not blanket road blocks, based upon reasonable suspicion, that's racial profiling?

[IAmNotSpartacus]

Originally Posted by Wilbo523

So when the Border Patrol or other ICE officers stop people, not blanket road blocks, based upon reasonable suspicion, that's racial profiling?

Where did you get this idea from?

[Dinsdale]

Originally Posted by klsdad

So if Arizona set up road-blocks to check everyone re immigration status that would be ok?

I have not been keeping track of that situation, but one problem I foresee is that there is no ready way to identify who is and isn't legal. US citizens are required to carry papers.

Someone would need to challenge the practice, and there would have to be a holding that the stop was in support of a legitimate state interest, and that the personal intrusion were acceptable.

[IAmNotSpartacus]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

US citizens are required to carry papers.

We are? Since when?

[Mosier]

The question has been answered, so I'll add an anecdote. A few days ago I went through my first police roadblock ever, a DUI operation over memorial day weekend. I never thought to question the legality of it. The police were not discriminating in who they stopped.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by IAmNotSpartacus

We are? Since when?

I think he meant to write "US citizens are not required to carry papers" but I could be wrong.

[CookingWithGas]

Originally Posted by Wilbo523

So when the Border Patrol or other ICE officers stop people, not blanket road blocks, based upon reasonable suspicion, that's racial profiling?

Depends on what caused the reasonable suspicion.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by IAmNotSpartacus

Where did you get this idea from?

All of the Arizona immigration Law opponents and boycotters. The say that the law is a racist law and that all brown-people will be targeted. Well the Federal immigration law uses the same standards, why isn't the Federal immigration law labeled as a racist law, encouraging racial profiling?

Originally Posted by CookingWithGas

Depends on what caused the reasonable suspicion.

Does it matter if it's the Arizona State police or the U.S. Border patrol doing the stops with all other issues being the same?

[TriPolar]

Rhode Island and other states do not allow police 'roadblocks' under the State Constitution, and I think clarified through additional legislation. Roadblocks have also been criticized as being ineffective. I've never understood how stopping everybody converts an unreasonable search and seizure into a reasonable one.

[Dinsdale]

Originally Posted by Telemark

I think he meant to write "US citizens are not required to carry papers" but I could be wrong.

Correct. Typo.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by ed malin

Rhode Island and other states do not allow police 'roadblocks' under the State Constitution, and I think clarified through additional legislation. Roadblocks have also been criticized as being ineffective. I've never understood how stopping everybody converts an unreasonable search and seizure into a reasonable one.

Is there really that big of a need to have road blocks in Rhode Island? You can drive across the entire state in about 20 minutes. Just put gates at the borders and your job's done.

[Markxxx]

I find it hard to believe cops are writing bogus tickets when the simple fact is there are ample opportunities for REAL tickets.

I read this thread and then had to walk 6 blocks to the post office. So I decided to wait at the corner of California and Fullerton for fifteen minutes and count violations.

In 15 minutes I counted 50 (then stopped) people using cell phones while driving. I counted over 30 (then stopped) people not wearing seat belts while driving.

And this doesn't count the ones doing both which I chose not to count at all.

With so many people blantantly violating the law in Chicago, I find it hard to believe that cops need to make things up.

OK now I can maybe see in very small towns where there isn't a lot of people how this could happen perhaps.

I worked in two small towns East Hazel Crest, IL and South Holland, IL both which had a lot of hotels on the access roads off of I-80. I used to be a desk clerk and I'd tell people, don't park in the handicap space when you register. I'd say "The cops have nothing to do in this small town but wait for you to park there and give you a ticket." But no one listened and the fact is they DID only ticket the ones who were doing illegal things.

I walk a LOT and most people drive horribly and deserve tickets. I can't even tell you the last time I saw a car actually stopped BEHIND the line at a red light. You don't notice till you walk and have to walk into the traffic, to get around these people.

Sorry for the rant, and like I said, I believe cops MAY do things not appropriate at times, especially if the town is little enough, but I think making up tickets isn't really one of them, especially since SO many violation exist to begin with.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by Wilbo523

Is there really that big of a need to have road blocks in Rhode Island? You can drive across the entire state in about 20 minutes. Just put gates at the borders and your job's done.

You have to account for the time/space anomalies that occur here. You should pack a lunch to drive to Newport, and Cranston is just too far away, but hopping in the car to drive to Maine is perfectly reasonable.
In reasonable terms, this would be the best state for roadblocks, small with a very high population density, and plenty of drivers violating some law.

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by Mosier

The question has been answered, so I'll add an anecdote. A few days ago I went through my first police roadblock ever, a DUI operation over memorial day weekend. I never thought to question the legality of it. The police were not discriminating in who they stopped.

In Michigan, the courts have disallowed them. There are other states that also have.

[Al Bundy]

Originally Posted by Markxxx

I find it hard to believe cops are writing bogus tickets when the simple fact is there are ample opportunities for REAL tickets.

I read this thread and then had to walk 6 blocks to the post office. So I decided to wait at the corner of California and Fullerton for fifteen minutes and count violations.

In 15 minutes I counted 50 (then stopped) people using cell phones while driving. I counted over 30 (then stopped) people not wearing seat belts while driving.

And this doesn't count the ones doing both which I chose not to count at all.

With so many people blantantly violating the law in Chicago, I find it hard to believe that cops need to make things up.

OK now I can maybe see in very small towns where there isn't a lot of people how this could happen perhaps.

I worked in two small towns East Hazel Crest, IL and South Holland, IL both which had a lot of hotels on the access roads off of I-80. I used to be a desk clerk and I'd tell people, don't park in the handicap space when you register. I'd say "The cops have nothing to do in this small town but wait for you to park there and give you a ticket." But no one listened and the fact is they DID only ticket the ones who were doing illegal things.

I walk a LOT and most people drive horribly and deserve tickets. I can't even tell you the last time I saw a car actually stopped BEHIND the line at a red light. You don't notice till you walk and have to walk into the traffic, to get around these people.

Sorry for the rant, and like I said, I believe cops MAY do things not appropriate at times, especially if the town is little enough, but I think making up tickets isn't really one of them, especially since SO many violation exist to begin with.

I first noticed the bogus tickets a few years ago when I could not figure out why people were being stopped. Yes, I see obvious violations constantly myself and wonder where the police are when you need them. But the bogus ticket phenomenon is true. Certain officers have been caught or admitted it. One admitted it publicly on Topix when he said he would write fewer tickets if people paid more taxes. I have seen officers stop one vehicle after another as soon as they could finish writing each ticket. I have sat in court and interviewed victims. I am in a position to witness these things more than the average bear. I sure wish it were not so.