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Old 03-09-2016, 11:38 AM
Sam Lowry Sam Lowry is offline
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What is the real scope of the human trafficking industry in the US?

I've heard multiple times about how Houston is a big hub of human trafficking, since we are a big city with two airports, a port, and near Mexico. There's an organization named Elijah Rising that has a Museum of Modern Day Slavery and has a awareness raising van tour, to make people more aware of the issue. Some in my Bible study thought it would be good for our group to do, so we went there last night and took the tour.

The tour guide gave us some info about the sex trafficking industry and all the horrors, and how they do interventions to get brothels shut down and try to get the women out, and it was informative. But he also pointed out a Women's Clinic that was shut down and how that was such a blessing since there was a terrible abortion doctor doing terrible things there, and that's not true. And pointed out some statues at a strip club we went by, and how they are pagan idols, and I wasn't quite sure of his point of if they were being worshiped or if they were demons that were being fought. And also said something about how widespread pornography use is, and how inevitably looking at porn means you'll start wanting more and more different porn, and how it escalates, and how lots of people go to the torture website Kink dot com. And then later he said something about how the group originated, which was out of some other group that was started at the International House of Prayer. And I know that name because I've read about it before as being somewhat culty and having bad influences on politics.

So anyway, after hearing the tour guide say some crazy stuff, and hearing about the group's origins, I couldn't help but start questioning other stuff he said. I know that human trafficking exists and is obviously terrible, but I was wanting to know the real scale of it. And also, he was conflating brothels and strip clubs a lot, and saying that often women are brought into strip clubs by their pimps and made to work, and while I'm sure that does happen, I was wondering how common that really is.

TLDR: Does anyone have any info, or links to info on how bad human trafficking is in the US? And does anyone know of any good, non-crazy organizations that are trying to fight it that I could support?
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Old 03-09-2016, 11:42 AM
Anaamika Anaamika is offline
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Holee shit. That tour guide's entire spiel reminds of that old joke:

A man goes into Confession and says, Bless me father for I have sinned. I have cheated on my marriage.

The Priest says, Was it with Mary?
The man says no.
The Priest says, Gwen?
The man says no.
The Priest says Maybe it was Emily?
The man says, No Father, but thank you for all these great leads!

Seriously! Your tour guide just gave a great list of "stuff to do". I never even heard of the website Kink dot com.





As to your point about human trafficking...it would be nice to have some accurate figures. People really make it sound like human slavery is happening all the time, everywhere, which I am prepared to believe is a possibility, but it's very hard to get stats that aren't over dramatized or under dramatized, as the case might be.
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Old 03-09-2016, 12:03 PM
Sam Lowry Sam Lowry is offline
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Originally Posted by Anaamika View Post
Holee shit. That tour guide's entire spiel reminds of that old joke:

A man goes into Confession and says, Bless me father for I have sinned. I have cheated on my marriage.

The Priest says, Was it with Mary?
The man says no.
The Priest says, Gwen?
The man says no.
The Priest says Maybe it was Emily?
The man says, No Father, but thank you for all these great leads!

Seriously! Your tour guide just gave a great list of "stuff to do". I never even heard of the website Kink dot com.





As to your point about human trafficking...it would be nice to have some accurate figures. People really make it sound like human slavery is happening all the time, everywhere, which I am prepared to believe is a possibility, but it's very hard to get stats that aren't over dramatized or under dramatized, as the case might be.
It was strange, because one of the people who recommended the tour said that they take you around and you realize that it's in all these places you never noticed or never would have thought had human trafficking. But they actually just circled around fairly close to their office (which was a former brothel), in this shady area, and it turns out that shady looking businesses can actually be brothels. Sad, but not mind-blowing.

You could use the tour to get some tips on how to find the brothels, and how to distinguish legit massage parlors from fronts for trafficking, but you'd have to be the most jaded person to hear about how the women are treated to then want to go find and use their services.

They did say upfront that it is difficult to get accurate statistics on human trafficking, which is understandable. But I'm hoping someone has some estimates from a legit source. And also more info on the links between trafficking and strip clubs. I tried looking up some info and stumbled upon some Cracked articles, that were saying there is too much violence but that a lot of women and men choose to be strippers or sex workers because of the good money. That wouldn't be the case for women trafficked into the US, but it does make me think that all the strip clubs in Houston aren't filled with women forced to work, unlike how the tour made it sound.
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Old 03-09-2016, 01:13 PM
Eonwe Eonwe is online now
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It's not sex trafficking, but human trafficking and enslavement nonetheless is (was?) endemic in some spheres of agribusiness. Tomatoland is nominally about how the fruit itself has changed, but more interesting to me were the stories about what amounts to slavery and abuse in the fields.

Here's an organisation in Florida that fights human enslavement in the US.
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:39 PM
Sage Rat Sage Rat is offline
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It looks like the FBI has just started to track this sort of data, so either it's only happening in Texas and Illinois or there's a number of states that aren't yet on the ball for tracking down and dealing with trafficking. But anyways, here's an FBI report:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...rafficking.pdf (PDF)
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Old 03-09-2016, 04:09 PM
bump bump is offline
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I have a feeling that these guys have a very broad idea of what constitutes "human trafficking" and it probably encompasses any and all kinds of sex work. They probably would count any woman who gets into being a stripper through unfavorable financial circumstances as coerced or something like that.

I'm pretty sure the government is more concerned with things like women being held against their will and forced to engage in that sort of business, not with women who decide to become strippers or hookers of their own free will, and just don't like the idea.
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Old 03-09-2016, 09:50 PM
Senegoid Senegoid is offline
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New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof has made the eradication of human trafficking a life project of his. I don't have any cites at my fingertips, but if you try to research all his work in this and all his columns and other writings, you might find some useful and credible stuff.
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Old 03-09-2016, 10:08 PM
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is offline
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I've been meaning to ask a question here about human trafficking. Namely - why does it seem to be a huuuuge issue to evangelical Christan groups but you don't really hear about it otherwise? I have a high school friend who goes to a "megachurch" and if she's not posting on Facebook about homeschooling she is posting about human trafficking. I don't see anyone else talking about it, yet it is a shocking and serious thing. Most of my friends are Liberals and we're all in to Human Rights and stuff but no one thinks too hard about human trafficking.

Do the evangelicals blow it out of proportion? Are they scaring Liberals away from the cause?
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Old 03-09-2016, 11:45 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
I have a feeling that these guys have a very broad idea of what constitutes "human trafficking" and it probably encompasses any and all kinds of sex work. They probably would count any woman who gets into being a stripper through unfavorable financial circumstances as coerced or something like that.

I'm pretty sure the government is more concerned with things like women being held against their will and forced to engage in that sort of business, not with women who decide to become strippers or hookers of their own free will, and just don't like the idea.
Not just sex work, but people who do all kinds of non-volunteer work unwillingly and without pay. Agriculture, manufacturing, lawn care, and housekeeping (private or commercial) seem to be the biggest culprits.
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Old 03-10-2016, 01:43 AM
Darryl Lict Darryl Lict is offline
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I have heard a counterintuitive statistic. It has been said that human trafficking has increased in places where prostitution has been legalized. I sometimes wonder if law enforcement agencies start spending more time examining human trafficking crimes rather than just arresting prostitutes and clients.

Personally, I think we should absolutely legalize prostitution. Certainly it would be a lot easier for a enslaved prostitute go to the authorities if prostitution was legal. I just wonder if there is an agenda to this or whether people are actually horrible enough to go to an enslaved prostitute rather than a legal one.
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Old 03-10-2016, 02:13 AM
UDS UDS is offline
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Originally Posted by Darryl Lict View Post
I have heard a counterintuitive statistic. It has been said that human trafficking has increased in places where prostitution has been legalized. I sometimes wonder if law enforcement agencies start spending more time examining human trafficking crimes rather than just arresting prostitutes and clients.

Personally, I think we should absolutely legalize prostitution. Certainly it would be a lot easier for a enslaved prostitute go to the authorities if prostitution was legal. I just wonder if there is an agenda to this or whether people are actually horrible enough to go to an enslaved prostitute rather than a legal one.
Agricultural work, manufacturing, lawn care and housekeeping are all legal, and yet you have people trafficked to work in them. In places where prostitution is legal, you cannot assume that the (legal) prostitute that you patronize has not been trafficked. It seems that the social and economic status of the occupation is a bigger factor in the likelihood of trafficking occurring than the legal status. It may indeed be easier to get away with trafficking sex workers when sex work is decriminalised, since it's easier for sex workers not to come to the attention of the police.

As for it being easier for a trafficked sex worker to go to the authorities if sex work is legal, I don't know but I suspect not. The sex worker's biggest fear may not be that she will be prosecuted for working as a prostitute, but that she will be deported and/or punished by those who trafficked her. Legalising sex work does not make these concerns go away.
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Old 03-10-2016, 02:41 AM
guizot guizot is offline
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Well, to actually put out some numbers: I work with non-profit agencies that resettle refugees, and in the same way that they administer programs of HHS for refugees, they also administer an HHS program for victims of international trafficking, called TVAP. The same case managers that work with refugees also work with those victims of trafficking. They are not allowed to say which clients are part of the TVAP program, because confidentiality is extremely important, in light of possible retaliation, especially toward those who might testify, but they do say that it's a much smaller case load. The U.S. will accept up to 85,000 officially designated refugees this fiscal year, but in comparison, it's estimated that about 17,000 people are trafficked across the boarder each year.
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:33 AM
bump bump is offline
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Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
Not just sex work, but people who do all kinds of non-volunteer work unwillingly and without pay. Agriculture, manufacturing, lawn care, and housekeeping (private or commercial) seem to be the biggest culprits.
That would be slavery though. What I'm saying is that I suspect that the OP's tour guide has an overly wide definition of "slavery" that would encompass anything from the actual, classic human trafficking type cases, to a woman involved in sex work, even willingly, or at least non-coercively. I suspect that the evangelical crowd's sex horror/fetish implies that ANY sex work is tantamount to slavery.

Otherwise, why would they have taken the OP by several places that aren't related to human trafficking and mentioned websites that (presumably) aren't related to it either, except that those businesses and websites are ones that they find odious and are being lumped in with (IMO) more serious human trafficking.

It sounds to me more like a "OMG! Sex work in Houston! Bad! See how bad!" kind of tour to me.
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:48 AM
Araminta Araminta is offline
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Scope (as best we know)

Given its illicit nature, it is naturally difficult to nail down the scope of trafficking, but here is some of what we do know:

Every year, at least 100,000 AMERICAN CHILDREN are sexually exploited through trafficking (Shared Hope)
--this estimate has undergone various iterations, but given the expansive definition of trafficking, extrapolating from other information, etc., this seems a conservative number

1 in 5 ENDANGERED RUNAWAYS are likely victims of sex trafficking (2015 National Center for Missing and Exploited Children)
--Note that this is consistently increasing, from 1 in 6 (2014) and 1 in 7 (2013) and 1 in 8 (2012); This number has tripled since NCMEC started comparing missing children to trafficked children

$150 BILLION - The estimated annual revenue of human trafficking worldwide, making it the second largest – and fastest growing – criminal industry (International Labour Organization, 2014)
--“Globally, two-thirds of the profits from forced labour were generated by commercial sexual exploitation,” says the report, “amounting to an estimated $99 billion [U.S. dollars] per year.” [more PEOPLE in labor trafficking, but more MONEY GENERATED from sex trafficking]
--No reliable estimate for within United States alone

Obviously our organization focuses on minors, but hopefully this at least helps with some of your "scope" questions...gets a lot murkier with adults, so the most reliable numbers are around minor anyway, as the law makes that cut-and-dry that it's always trafficking. What we have beyond that is Maryland-specific...the task force within your state should have more localized information. Following is a great link around "hub" claims: http://www.rebeccabender.org/blog/20...he-busiest-hub
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:17 AM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Originally Posted by Araminta View Post
Given its illicit nature, it is naturally difficult to nail down the scope of trafficking, but here is some of what we do know:
How do we know your figures are accurate?

Especially since you post
Quote:
1 in 5 ENDANGERED RUNAWAYS are likely victims of sex trafficking (2015 National Center for Missing and Exploited Children)
--Note that this is consistently increasing, from 1 in 6 (2014) and 1 in 7 (2013) and 1 in 8 (2012);
I don't see how going from 1 in 8 in 2012 to 1 in 5 in 2015 is a consistent increase.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:22 AM
Araminta Araminta is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
How do we know your figures are accurate?

Especially since you post
I don't see how going from 1 in 8 in 2012 to 1 in 5 in 2015 is a consistent increase.

Regards,
Shodan
I've simply tried to provide some of the more reliable information out there, with citation, so for more information on that one, you'd need to go to the source, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC): http://www.missingkids.org/home

Should also be noted that with statistics that are newly collected, the increase could obviously reflect our greater awareness and reporting and not necessarily an increase in trafficking itself...it just may have been under-reported in previous years...

Last edited by Araminta; 03-10-2016 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:28 AM
Duckster Duckster is offline
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:40 AM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Originally Posted by Araminta View Post
I've simply tried to provide some of the more reliable information out there, with citation, so for more information on that one, you'd need to go to the source, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC): http://www.missingkids.org/home
My bad - I simply misread the claim. My apologies. Nonetheless, I would like to know how they arrived at their figures.
Quote:
Should also be noted that with statistics that are newly collected, the increase could obviously reflect our greater awareness and reporting and not necessarily an increase in trafficking itself...it just may have been under-reported in previous years...
Or perhaps their statistics aren't reliable either time.

Likewise the claim about 100,000 US children being exploited every year, which seems shaky at best.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 03-10-2016, 12:04 PM
polar bear polar bear is online now
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Problem with getting any real figures is that there are disputes about definitions and even if you agree on that, measuring is difficult. Not in the least because many individuals that are considered trafficked, don't feel that is the case. In the UN definition it is explicitly stated that it doesn't matter whether the victim considers himself/herself a victim.

As a result most numbers are put forward by parties that have an agenda (from both/multiple sides) which gets requoted a lot by groups with a similar agenda and discredited by groups with a different agenda.
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Old 03-10-2016, 12:36 PM
Sam Lowry Sam Lowry is offline
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Thanks for the information so far everyone, and keep it coming if anyone has anymore. I understand that it is difficult to get accurate numbers, based on how you define trafficking. I'm hoping that the Washington Post article is true, that the 100,000 kids statistic is an overblown one. But if human trafficking is as big as some of the organization say, then I don't want to ignore a real problem that's going on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
I have a feeling that these guys have a very broad idea of what constitutes "human trafficking" and it probably encompasses any and all kinds of sex work. They probably would count any woman who gets into being a stripper through unfavorable financial circumstances as coerced or something like that.

I'm pretty sure the government is more concerned with things like women being held against their will and forced to engage in that sort of business, not with women who decide to become strippers or hookers of their own free will, and just don't like the idea.
Yeah, that's true. One of the Cracked articles I read mentioned that sex workers had a higher than expected satisfaction with their job (something like 40%, I don't have the cite right now), and rightly pointed out that's there are a lot of people unsatisfied with their office or retail jobs.

The tour guide did say something about how predatory pimps are, and how they'll go to malls or wherever and look for groups of teenage girls, and not talk to the prettiest one but to the second prettiest one because they can be more manipulated. And how the girls that haven't been getting affirmations from their dads are more likely to fall for the compliments from other men. And wow, the more that I write out what was said the more it sounds like Christian urban legends or from Chick tracts or something.

If people are being manipulated into the sex industry, and kept there not by force but by abuse, then that is still terrible, but I don't know how often that really is the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZipperJJ View Post
I've been meaning to ask a question here about human trafficking. Namely - why does it seem to be a huuuuge issue to evangelical Christan groups but you don't really hear about it otherwise? I have a high school friend who goes to a "megachurch" and if she's not posting on Facebook about homeschooling she is posting about human trafficking. I don't see anyone else talking about it, yet it is a shocking and serious thing. Most of my friends are Liberals and we're all in to Human Rights and stuff but no one thinks too hard about human trafficking.

Do the evangelicals blow it out of proportion? Are they scaring Liberals away from the cause?
Yeah, I'm starting to wonder that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
That would be slavery though. What I'm saying is that I suspect that the OP's tour guide has an overly wide definition of "slavery" that would encompass anything from the actual, classic human trafficking type cases, to a woman involved in sex work, even willingly, or at least non-coercively. I suspect that the evangelical crowd's sex horror/fetish implies that ANY sex work is tantamount to slavery.

Otherwise, why would they have taken the OP by several places that aren't related to human trafficking and mentioned websites that (presumably) aren't related to it either, except that those businesses and websites are ones that they find odious and are being lumped in with (IMO) more serious human trafficking.

It sounds to me more like a "OMG! Sex work in Houston! Bad! See how bad!" kind of tour to me.
I had been a bit concerned about the tour being like that. Like I had heard of tours going through the devastated parts of New Orleans after Katrina to gawp at the destruction and the people dealing with it, and I was kinda concerned about the tour being like that. Like it's a way to get your thrills by driving through the shady parts of town before going back to your nice safe neighborhood. I don't think that's the only purpose of the tour, but that is probably part of the draw for some people at least.
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Old 03-10-2016, 01:55 PM
BeeGee BeeGee is offline
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I've seen several stories in the various local news sites here in Austin over the past couple of years. Here's the Texas Attorney General's website:
https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/cj/human-trafficking
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Old 03-10-2016, 05:13 PM
DrCube DrCube is offline
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Maybe it's just me, but I've always read "human trafficking" as code for "illegal immigration" and/or "prostitution". Neither of which makes you a slave.

Now, maybe I'm biased here by my knowledge of chattel slavery in the US, but it seems to me state support is an important component of slavery. Otherwise you could just leave. People don't hire chain gangs to pick strawberries, and they don't hire prostitutes who are chained to a bed. You can't send a kidnapped adult into an open field every day to work (or a street, or motel, etc) and expect them not to run. Maybe there's some physical threats going on, too, but people fight back, they band together, they take chances. How have we never heard of a single escaped slave?

Now I'm well aware that prostitutes and illegal immigrants are ripe for exploitation because they always have "we'll tell the cops on you" hanging over their heads. But exploitation isn't slavery. And it seems that the "trafficking" part had to have been voluntary, or else "we'll tell the cops" isn't much of an issue, because what are they going to do, send you back home?

Something just doesn't add up. I'm not saying there's not an issue, and I'm not saying we shouldn't do something about it. But when I see the stats saying there's a million slaves entering the US alone every year (or some other outrageous claim), I just don't buy it. These stats have an agenda behind them, and I'm not sure what it is, but I don't trust it. Especially when the most obvious solutions (legalizing prostitution and immigration) are never suggested, and in fact very few solutions at all are offered. It's all "strip clubs are bad", "sex work is bad" guilt trip stuff.
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:46 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Lowry View Post
And wow, the more that I write out what was said the more it sounds like Christian urban legends or from Chick tracts or something.

If people are being manipulated into the sex industry, and kept there not by force but by abuse, then that is still terrible, but I don't know how often that really is the case.
And one thing that is always in my mind in this discussion: pimping has itself been a crime all along. Its convergence with "trafficking" is partly driven, and I don't blame anyone for it, by a desire to bring attention to the reality of predatory pimps, abusive SOBs much different from the pop-culture image of a slick dude in flamboyant threads and a tricked out ride who's admired for keeping his bitches in line. But I get the feeling that in most cases that is all there is: common vulgar pimping.

But yes: the major mode of human trafficking in the world is non sexual labor trafficking. Transfer of people for illegal agricultural, domestic, menial or sweatshop work, often under debt indenture.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 03-10-2016 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:05 PM
Sage Rat Sage Rat is offline
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Now I'm well aware that prostitutes and illegal immigrants are ripe for exploitation because they always have "we'll tell the cops on you" hanging over their heads. But exploitation isn't slavery. And it seems that the "trafficking" part had to have been voluntary, or else "we'll tell the cops" isn't much of an issue, because what are they going to do, send you back home?
I suspect that this depends on the organization doing the trafficking.

As noted earlier in the thread, the women trafficked into Germany (probably by Russian mafia) have their families threatened, back home.

In the case of Mexican women, brought into the US, it's possible that the women are willing. But that still wouldn't mean that they are kept in - what we would consider to be - humane circumstances or what we would consider to be a "willing" frame of mind. If you're a member of a cartel, enslaving women, you tell them that you have control over the town, contacts in high places, and that you'll be able to track them down, no problem. And if they do their part, they'll get their money when they're returned to Mexico. But in the meanwhile, they'll have to put up with whatever ill treatment you or the customers give them.

A lot of control can probably also be exerted via the wage scheme. Provide food and lodging while they're in the US, and they'll have no money to run away with. Give their family half the money when the girl leaves Mexico and the other half when she comes back. As the bread winner, she's on the hook to see everything through.

In the case of American women, managed by a pimp, often drugs and alcohol are involved to keep them hooked and pliable. And generally those with a pimp are runaways who are underage. If the police find them, they'll be sent back to the home that they had runaway from - possibly with good reason.
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Old 03-11-2016, 11:16 AM
puddleglum puddleglum is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
Maybe it's just me, but I've always read "human trafficking" as code for "illegal immigration" and/or "prostitution". Neither of which makes you a slave.

Now, maybe I'm biased here by my knowledge of chattel slavery in the US, but it seems to me state support is an important component of slavery. Otherwise you could just leave. People don't hire chain gangs to pick strawberries, and they don't hire prostitutes who are chained to a bed. You can't send a kidnapped adult into an open field every day to work (or a street, or motel, etc) and expect them not to run. Maybe there's some physical threats going on, too, but people fight back, they band together, they take chances. How have we never heard of a single escaped slave?

Now I'm well aware that prostitutes and illegal immigrants are ripe for exploitation because they always have "we'll tell the cops on you" hanging over their heads. But exploitation isn't slavery. And it seems that the "trafficking" part had to have been voluntary, or else "we'll tell the cops" isn't much of an issue, because what are they going to do, send you back home?

Something just doesn't add up. I'm not saying there's not an issue, and I'm not saying we shouldn't do something about it. But when I see the stats saying there's a million slaves entering the US alone every year (or some other outrageous claim), I just don't buy it. These stats have an agenda behind them, and I'm not sure what it is, but I don't trust it. Especially when the most obvious solutions (legalizing prostitution and immigration) are never suggested, and in fact very few solutions at all are offered. It's all "strip clubs are bad", "sex work is bad" guilt trip stuff.
In the US what generally happens is a woman is promised a job in the US as a maid making good money for their home country. Once they get to the US they are put in a brothel, their documents are taken away, and they are threatened with violence unless they become prostitutes in the brothel. In order to prevent escape the brothel is guarded. Also the women usually does not speak English, has no legal papers, and comes from a country where the police are usually in the pay of criminals and not to be trusted. They can also be given addictive drugs to make them dependent on the brothel owners.
Women do escape and their stories are available if you look for them. I don't believe the problem in the US is as big as advocates claim but it does happen.
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Old 03-11-2016, 03:45 PM
griffin1977 griffin1977 is offline
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To me the issue seems to be term "human trafficking" seems to conflate a bunch of very different crimes:
  • Arranging for the travel of illegal immigrants to the US (who in most cases are making a rational decision to immigrate to the US and not being coerced at all).
  • Sexual exploitation of children or adults in the sex trade (whether or not they are US citizens and have actually be transported anywhere)
  • Sexual exploitation of illegal immigrants who have come to the US under false pretenses and kept in the trade by threats of violence or exposure to the authorities
  • Non-sexual exploitation of other immigrant workers

There is obviously a lot of exploitation and abuse going on in all these situations. Personally though I don't see the point of conflating all these into one.

Last edited by griffin1977; 03-11-2016 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:00 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is online now
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On a related note, my pastor posted another story today about how ERs are seeing parades of teenage girls and young women who have been the victims of (among other things) forcible anal rape, which they do because they and their boyfriends/husbands have seen it in porn and think it's normal.



I inquired about this on a medical board I post on, on both the ER and OB/GYN boards, and the people there said, pretty much to a person, "What kind of weirdo is your pastor, anyway?" He WAS invited to the Vatican to speak about it a couple years ago; he is a respected person in the field.

I do find it difficult to believe that kids who have grown up in any kind of mainstream environment would do this on this scale, and discuss it casually with him which he claims happens on a daily basis. I have DEFINITELY never heard of a relationship between people of any age that was sexually abusive and not abusive outside the bedroom.

He also said something a few weeks ago about how infertility specialists in his area have had to ask couples, "Are you having penis-in-vagina intercourse, and if so, do you ejaculate inside her?" Apparently a lot of people are not, and don't know that this is necessary to conceive. (Good grief, my cats' parents figured that out on their own.) One of the posters on the doctors' board said, in effect, "How would a person who doesn't know the basics of human reproduction know to go to a fertility specialist, or have the mental capacity to make an appointment?"

I don't think my pastor or his secretary, who's also part of the conversation, are making it up. I guess when you're in the thick of something, like they are, you see the world much differently.
  #28  
Old 04-11-2016, 09:19 PM
actualliberalnotoneofthose actualliberalnotoneofthose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaamika View Post
Seriously! Your tour guide just gave a great list of "stuff to do". I never even heard of the website Kink dot com.
Very well known by the millions of fans of internet porn. I've never looked at it, and it's not my thing, but that site has been covered by many mainstream news organizations for several years for reasons good and bad.

Might as well get bent out of shape over someone revealing the name of super underground sex trafficking organization Vivid or Manwin.

None of these organizations have anything to do with sex-trafficking, BTW. While overblown, you could probably point the finger at some much more well known and mainstream websites.
  #29  
Old 04-11-2016, 09:24 PM
actualliberalnotoneofthose actualliberalnotoneofthose is offline
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Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
I don't think my pastor or his secretary, who's also part of the conversation, are making it up. I guess when you're in the thick of something, like they are, you see the world much differently.
Maybe not "making it up" as much as they are passing along urban legends or playing a weak game of telephone.

This sounds like something out of the "rainbow party" myth canon. Of course pastors would never have any interest in exaggerating sexual decadence.
  #30  
Old 04-11-2016, 09:43 PM
t-bonham@scc.net t-bonham@scc.net is offline
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Note that all of these organizations are making their money from this problem.
So I'd take their statistics with a grain or salt, at least. Like asking an Insurance salesman if you have enough insurance.

Take the 100,000 children per year number. Even assuming that as correct, it is a pretty broad definition of exploitation.

From doing some volunteer work in this area, I know that young GLBT boys who were thrown out of their home after coming out (called runaways, but are really 'throwaways'*) usually are offered payment for sex within a few days of being on the streets. And many of them accept, to earn money for food, clothing, & shelter. (But that's pretty much the same reason I worked for Wells Fargo.) As they said, it was easier & paid better than McDonalds.

You could certainly call that exploitation, but trafficking? Who is doing the trafficking -- the kid themself?

*It seems to me that it is these same evangelical ministers who rant about 'human trafficking' also encourage their parishioners to force their GLBT kids out of their homes.
  #31  
Old 04-11-2016, 10:06 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actualliberalnotoneofthose View Post
Maybe not "making it up" as much as they are passing along urban legends or playing a weak game of telephone.

This sounds like something out of the "rainbow party" myth canon. Of course pastors would never have any interest in exaggerating sexual decadence.
Or the jelly bracelet thing around the same time.

Maybe I lead a very sheltered life, but I have NEVER known, or even heard of, anyone who threw their child out, or disowned them, for being gay. I don't doubt that it's happened, and I believe that when it does, there's a LOT more going on. MHO, of course. (It's like the stereotype of the man who leaves his wife when he finds out she has breast cancer. I am the child of a BCS and encountered many of them when I worked in healthcare, etc. and have never witnessed this either. I do know of people who got divorced; all of them were already headed down that road long beforehand.)

Some of these numbers remind me of the stories in the 1980s about 2 1/2 million missing children every year. That story evaporated quickly when it was revealed that 99% of those were runaways, and 99% of the children who were kidnapped turned out to have been abducted by someone they knew, usually a non-custodial parent or grandparent.
  #32  
Old 04-12-2016, 10:21 AM
robert_columbia robert_columbia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
...
Now I'm well aware that prostitutes and illegal immigrants are ripe for exploitation because they always have "we'll tell the cops on you" hanging over their heads. But exploitation isn't slavery. And it seems that the "trafficking" part had to have been voluntary, or else "we'll tell the cops" isn't much of an issue, because what are they going to do, send you back home?...
Right. Suppose I was kidnapped off the streets of New York by a gang, smuggled in to Saudi Arabia, and told that unless I fixed their oil drilling rig they would put me on a plane back to JFK. I'd probably say, "Ok, send me home."
  #33  
Old 04-12-2016, 10:53 AM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is online now
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Originally Posted by robert_columbia View Post
Right. Suppose I was kidnapped off the streets of New York by a gang, smuggled in to Saudi Arabia, and told that unless I fixed their oil drilling rig they would put me on a plane back to JFK. I'd probably say, "Ok, send me home."


Except if you found it likely that the gang might kill you upon return.
  #34  
Old 04-12-2016, 02:16 PM
Fool in the Rain Fool in the Rain is offline
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Not so much facts and figures, but news stories:

Rhode Island has had legalized prostitution via loopholes in the law (closed in 2009) that prostitution indoors was legal. In turn, it has opened the door to human trafficking, especially of Asian nationalities. RI has been fighting the tide ever since:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Prostitution was decriminalized in Rhode Island in 1980, when the prostitution laws were amended, reducing prostitution from a felony to a misdemeanor. The drafters of the law deleted the section that addressed committing the act of prostitution itself, and only street solicitation remained illegal.[4] Prostitution remained legal in the state until November 2009, when it was outlawed again.

It has been argued that the lawmakers who amended the Rhode Island prostitution laws in 1980 had decriminalized indoor prostitution by mistake, without realizing that the new laws were creating a "loophole." Rhode Island State Senator John F. McBurney III was the only member of the General Assembly at the time of the 2009 vote who had served in 1980. He stated in 2009, "We probably vote on 500 bills a year (...) They didn’t know what they were voting for."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosti...n_Rhode_Island

In turn, this had led to numerous "masseuse parlors" being run in RI. These, however, have been slowly located and closed down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Providence Journal
A new Asian massage parlor opened last Friday next to a tavern frequented by police officers — and didn't last the week before it was raided for prostitution.
The Angel Spa, which had ads featuring scantily clad young Asian women in the adult entertainment section of Backpage dot com, was the first to open since the passage of a city ordinance regulating "body works" establishments. The ordinance was intended to crack down on suspected prostitution and sex trafficking, and it resulted in the closure of all of the spas in the city in February.
http://www.providencejournal.com/art...NEWS/150509368

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABC6
The doors to this Providence massage parlor on Pontiac Ave. are closed. The blinds are drawn, and the lights are off. It's just one of five where prostitution was common that have shut down after police pressure. Neighboring businesses we spoke to say they are happy with the crack down.

"It is an illegal thing, so I guess it's better for the neighborhood, and better for the community," said Sonny Pham who works at High-Tech Auto Services and Detail. His businesses is right across the street from two of the parlors, Red Rose Spa, and JJ Tunia Body Work.
http://www.abc6.com/story/19399837/p...assage-parlors

LEOs have been finding and cracking down on trafficking in RI recently:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NBC10
Cranston police arrested 17 people in a prostitution and trafficking sting.
They have accused 21-year-old Yuleysi Garcia of Providence with human trafficking of a 16-year-old girl.
Devon Brown of Everett, Massachusetts has been charged with pandering.
Investigators started their sting online, saying that they posted ads on sites like Backpage.com, posing as both people looking for sex for money and those providing it.
http://turnto10.com/news/local/17-pe...ng-in-cranston
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABC6
For the last five months, police say several girls of Mexican and Guatemalan decent have been arriving weekly to work at Providence residential brothels, prostituted for about $30 an act.

The latest discovery was about two weeks ago on the first floor of a triple–decker apartment located on Dora Street.

Inside, police found two women, one engaging with a client. The so called pimp, Armando Arevalo was arrested for sex trafficking.
http://www.abc6.com/story/25623644/h...-brothel-busts

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoLocalProv.com
On March 23, the Rhode Island State Police Computer Crimes Unit / ICAC Task Force received a CyberTip from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) regarding a possible sexual assault of a 14 year old juvenile female. The Rhode Island State Police, Homeland Security Investigations (HSI), the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Franklin Township (New Jersey) Police Department worked to located the victim in New Jersey on April 6. At the time the victim was located, Paul Monteiro, age 30, was arrested by HSI and charged federally with human trafficking. The prosecution of this arrest is being handled by the Providence office of the United States Attorney.
http://www.golocalprov.com/news/ri-s...ion-of-a-minor

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hartford Current"
Two Rhode Island men are facing charges, including promoting prostitution, after police conducted a human trafficking investigation.
http://www.courant.com/breaking-news...407-story.html

Last edited by Fool in the Rain; 04-12-2016 at 02:17 PM.
  #35  
Old 04-12-2016, 02:25 PM
Fool in the Rain Fool in the Rain is offline
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Addendum:

A Providence Journal writer, Lynn Arditi, had written these articles in 2009 that helps lay the groundwork to the issues RI faced(faces):

http://lynnarditi.com/prostitution/2...in-providence/

and here:

http://lynnarditi.com/prostitution/2...-prostitution/

I also found this, an Analysis of Human Trafficking Cases in Rhode Island, 2009-2013

WARNING: PDF
  #36  
Old 04-13-2016, 11:55 AM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
Maybe I lead a very sheltered life, but I have NEVER known, or even heard of, anyone who threw their child out, or disowned them, for being gay.
It's not that you lead a sheltered life, really, it's that nobody knows a random sampling of people. Most people tend to know people with similar values and beliefs and socioeconomic status.
  #37  
Old 04-14-2016, 06:00 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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About a decade or more ago, Canadian media was being hyped up over boatloads of illegal immigrants being smuggled into Canada - depending on who was doing the talking, to work in sweat shops, to be prostitutes, to go onward to the USA.

In fact, many of these were no different than the people who paid smugglers to take them to the USA from central America, or from Arica and the middle east to Europe, or by boat to Australia. They were looking for a better life and somehow came up with thousands of dollars to make this happen.

One of the Canadian MPs, since retired, was pushing a bill that eventually became law to "fight human trafficking". At the time, the hype made it sound like she aimed it at smugglers bringing illegal migrants into the country; it turns out, the only application I've heard it being used for, was to prosecute one or two pimps who brought girls down from northern Indian Reserves for prostitution... essentially, a second law, against pimps who transport people. it should not surprise us considering the discussion above that the former conservative government involved a lot of evangelical types.

* * * *
I hear of a variety of "human slavery" problems in developed countries, like Canada and the USA.

One is people brought over in legit schemes that bind them to specific employers, who then have their passports taken away, are told they must work long hours, if they try to leave the police will arrest and deport them (because they no longer have a job), they still owe thousands for their transport and must work for nothing, do not know labour standards and work long hours. They are suitably cowed and do as they are told; conditions back home are not good. The jobs range from domestic help to jobs like restaurant kitchen work.

A more insidious for on slavery is the same, but involves people brought to the country illegally. They have a greater expectation that involving the authorities will result in deportation. They may also end up in ethnic areas where their situation is less noticeable and be more heavily exploited - living 20 to a room, working sweatshop conditions... or they may end up being the gardener for your lawn service, or farm workers. Of course the people who brought them in likely have connections in the home country and can continue to demand more and more "repayment" of smuggling expenses - so it's not safe to quit.

the worst is of course sex trafficking. There are stories of women brought in to be "domestics" and ending up coerced to be sex workers - same trick, hold their passports and threaten them. Some local women may be suitably coerced, but too many know the score and can easily escape. I read something about the majority of red light district women in Amsterdam now being imports (with varying degrees of willingness) by criminal gangs from eastern Europe where things are tougher.

I've assumed that things are much worse in the USA, with the easier access for immigrants who don't have a wall, and the larger ethnic communities with those who originally appear to want help but just see easy exploitation.

Last edited by md2000; 04-14-2016 at 06:01 PM.
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