Johnny Hart wasn't exactly all that subtle was he? - Infamous menorah & cross strip

[astro]

Re Johnny Hart the creator o the comic "B.C." re-found God in the late 70's and his comics began to have a fair amount of overtly Christian themes, but I had no idea he had taken it to this extreme.

[74westy]

Hart could be quite subtle when defaming other religions.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by 74westy

Hart could be quite subtle when defaming other religions.

That's not subtle either.

[Celyn]

Wow. Both of those seem a bit nasty.

And I somehow managed only to see the name "Hart" at first, and thought it would be amusing the cute plasticine man "Morph".

[samclem]

Originally Posted by astro

Re Johnny Hart the creator o the comic "B.C." re-found God in the late 70's and his comics began to have a fair amount of overtly Christian themes, but I had no idea he had taken it to this extreme.

You evidently missed good threads about this at the time. I think some of that is gone, as we had another server.

[Freudian Slit]

I don't really get either of them. Can someone explain?

I get that it's a menorah, but why?

[Tanaqui]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

I don't really get either of them. Can someone explain?

I get that it's a menorah, but why?

Can you see the whole comic? It changes into a cross. While the text refers explicitly to the crucifixion of Jesus. Which has often been used as an excuse to persecute "the Jews" by anti-Semites. There's nothing to "get" if by "get" you mean a joke. It's just a nasty little piece of Christian propaganda. The same thing goes for the other strip--the outhouse has a crescent moon on it. The crescent moon is a symbol of Islam. Haha, Islam is stinky!! Either that or it's the worst joke in the history of jokes. There's nothing deeper to it than that. The man is a moron.

[John DiFool]

Was. Virtually none of that nonsense has shown up since JH's death (including that Anno Domine character).

[Freudian Slit]

Originally Posted by Tanaqui

Can you see the whole comic? It changes into a cross. While the text refers explicitly to the crucifixion of Jesus. Which has often been used as an excuse to persecute "the Jews" by anti-Semites. There's nothing to "get" if by "get" you mean a joke. It's just a nasty little piece of Christian propaganda. The same thing goes for the other strip--the outhouse has a crescent moon on it. The crescent moon is a symbol of Islam. Haha, Islam is stinky!! Either that or it's the worst joke in the history of jokes. There's nothing deeper to it than that. The man is a moron.

Oh okay. For some reason I didn't get that it was a menorah turning into a cross. I just kept thinking what does Hanukkah have to do with Jesus dying...like was this some kind of warning?

I suspected that was what the second one was about but that just seemed too ridiculously simple.

[panache45]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

I just kept thinking what does Hanukkah have to do with Jesus dying...?

A Hanukkah menorah has 9 candles; The generic all-purpose Jewish menorah has 7.

[Peter Morris]

Originally Posted by Tanaqui

Can you see the whole comic? It changes into a cross. While the text refers explicitly to the crucifixion of Jesus.

Yeah, I can see that, but ...

Which has often been used as an excuse to persecute "the Jews" by anti-Semites. There's nothing to "get" if by "get" you mean a joke. It's just a nasty little piece of Christian propaganda.

Christian propaganda, yes, but why "nasty?" How exactly is that an attack on the Jews?

The same thing goes for the other strip--the outhouse has a crescent moon on it. The crescent moon is a symbol of Islam. Haha, Islam is stinky!! Either that or it's the worst joke in the history of jokes. There's nothing deeper to it than that. The man is a moron.

And this is even more of a stretch. I don't think that "slam = Islam" was deliberate. I see nothing more than a weak joke there. And he certainly told a lot of weak jokes.

[FriarTed]

Originally Posted by Peter Morris

Christian propaganda, yes, but why "nasty?" How exactly is that an attack on the Jews?

There's two interpretations of that strip, both reasonable IMHO.

The "innocent" view is that Christianity is a continuing of God's Revelation begun in Judaism.

The "nasty/attack" view is that Christianity is the replacement of Judaism & that C's triumph is in J's extinction.

I'm sure Hart did not intend the latter but I gotta admit that it's not a stretch to interpret it that way.

[CalMeacham]

Hart used to be subtle. I've been re-reading his old strips just last night, and remembering why I loved them. Before he git ultra-Christian, his stuff ran the gamut from blatantly stupid and silly to nuanced and witty. Looking at his late career, it's hard to believe that he and his cohorts used to compose strips by sitting around with a six-pack of beer and tossing ideas back and forth (as related in Backstage at the Strips.)

[Sam A. Robrin]

I think the outhouse joke was just another example of schoolboy bathroom humor. Outhouses have traditionally had moons carved into them (at least in comic strips), with no intended reference to Islam, for decades, and to suddenly attribute bigotry to that is to ignore that "Sometimes the cigar is just a cigar."
Like just about all religious references, the "menorah" sequence can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on whether the reader wants to see inspiration, or gets off on the power-trip that getting offended came to entitle him to in the wake of the civil rights movement. I take some offense at it myself, but more because I believe in the separation of church and strip, so to speak.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

One facet of the strip which stands out for me, and which hasn't been mentioned is that the first panel contains the words "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do" transposed over a Menorrah. That's either stunningly oblivious or an intentional allusion to Jews as "Christ killers."

I wouldn't surprise me if Hart did not think of the strip as anti-Jewish, though. The chauvinism of fundy Christianity is so ingrained and unconscious that they often don't even know they're doing it.

[Bosstone]

Originally Posted by Sam A. Robrin

I think the outhouse joke was just another example of schoolboy bathroom humor. Outhouses have traditionally had moons carved into them (at least in comic strips), with no intended reference to Islam, for decades, and to suddenly attribute bigotry to that is to ignore that "Sometimes the cigar is just a cigar."

I might agree, but the SLAM is too ostentatious to be written off as a mere sound effect.

[Skammer]

Well the title of the strip is "The last seven words of Jesus" and "Forgive them..." is the first of those quotations; I don't think JH intended to direct that at Jews in general. But I do think, in whole, the strip showed remarkable poor taste.

[Peter Morris]

Especially considering that the "them" referred to in the quote were the Romans.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Then why superimpose it over a menorrah?

It's beside the point that Hart was not accurate. Associating the menorrah with Passover is not accurate either.

By having the menorrah be destroyed, piece by piece, as Jesus dies, and then replaced with a cross and tomb, it's hard to defend the idea that he intended the images or religions to be presented as coequal or coexistent. He was replacing the one with the other. He was mindless enough not to think it was offensive, though.

[Peter Morris]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Then why superimpose it over a menorrah?

I think the idea is that by showing a Jewish symbol turning into a Christian one it just recognises that Christianity has it's roots in Judaism. I can believe that he intended it to be respectful.

It is possible that he misunderstood the meaning of the menorah, and the passover. I'll have to take your word for that. But I was always taught that the Last Supper was a Passover meal.

By having the menorrah be destroyed, piece by piece, ...

It isn't. It's just seven flames that go out, one by one. No part of it is damaged. And then it segues into a cross that resembles the cross-piece of the menorah.

[postcards]

Dan Piraro has a good take on B.C.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Bosstone

I might agree, but the SLAM is too ostentatious to be written off as a mere sound effect.

As much as I dislike JH, I can't buy this. He used that type of effect elsewhere. I think that strip is innocent (and not funny).

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by 74westy

Hart could be quite subtle when defaming other religions.

I'd have to vote that that's reading way too much into it. An outhouse has a crescent moon on it 90% of the time in fiction, and 100% of the time when an outhouse is used in fiction its for humorous purposes. Why presume that Mr. Hart intended something different from every other author in the history of slapstick?

It smells.
Well duh!

That's the joke. If you were 3 years old, you'd probably think it was hysterical.

[Tom Tildrum]

Originally Posted by postcards

Dan Piraro has a good take on B.C.

I believe that Hart actually addressed this point, indicating that he had come to see his cavemen not as prehistorical but as post-nuclear war survivors.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Telemark

As much as I dislike JH, I can't buy this. He used that type of effect elsewhere. I think that strip is innocent (and not funny).

You should read some of the interviews with him late in his life. He was quite rabid - even talking about how his mother was going to hell because she didn't believe strongly enough, IIRC. Many papers, including the Mercury News, dropped BC because of this clear bigotry.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by FriarTed

There's two interpretations of that strip, both reasonable IMHO.

The "innocent" view is that Christianity is a continuing of God's Revelation begun in Judaism.

That's how I read it, and I'm not religious. But I suppose I could see the other reading.

As for the outhouse one, I think it's a stretch to consider that to be a slam on Islam. If it is, it's really, really subtle.

[DChord568]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Then why superimpose it over a menorrah?

It's beside the point that Hart was not accurate. Associating the menorrah with Passover is not accurate either.

By having the menorrah be destroyed, piece by piece, as Jesus dies, and then replaced with a cross and tomb, it's hard to defend the idea that he intended the images or religions to be presented as coequal or coexistent. He was replacing the one with the other. He was mindless enough not to think it was offensive, though.

I wasn't here at the time the strip was published, so I don't know the various interpretations that were bandied about.

But I sure do remember seeing it in my Sunday paper. My interpretation was the same as yours, and I was outraged by it. (For the record, I'm not Jewish.) Of course, when I brought it up to my Catholic cousin, just as you say, she couldn't see why it should be offensive.

I eventually stopped reading B.C. because of this and other examples of brute proselytizing...and also because Hart was so busy doing this that he forgot to be funny.

It's true that his replacement has knocked this stuff off, but he too rarely gives me any reason to laugh.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Voyager

You should read some of the interviews with him late in his life. He was quite rabid - even talking about how his mother was going to hell because she didn't believe strongly enough, IIRC. Many papers, including the Mercury News, dropped BC because of this clear bigotry.

I understand all that, but he also wrote many stupid and innocent comic strips. I think that this particular one is not anti-Muslim. I completely agree that other strips were anti-Semitic and a host of other stupid things.

Sometimes and outhouse is just an outhouse.

[The Second Stone]

SLAM is written in the interior of a giant I. Look at it again. He was insulting Islam and screwing with his editors.

[sachertorte]

I've never understood the 'Christ Killer' animosity towards Jews. Isn't the death of Christ the fundamental point of the religion? What would have happened if Christ wasn't killed? Wouldn't that mean he didn't die for the sins of Man? Wouldn't everyone be going to Hell then?
Looks to me like the Jews did the Christians a huge favor.

[Freudian Slit]

The menorah association is just so weird, though. I could see if it was just a passover thing but the menorah is only associated with Hanukkah...right?

It's just weird.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by The Second Stone

SLAM is written in the interior of a giant I. Look at it again. He was insulting Islam and screwing with his editors.

Or not. That, IMO, is a fairly stretched way of interpreting that particular sound effect, especially one that is fairly standard and innocuous otherwise. You can interpret it that way, but I think it would be a mistake.

[CalMeacham]

The menorah association is just so weird, though. I could see if it was just a passover thing but the menorah is only associated with Hanukkah...right?

IIRC, the strip originally ran in December, the month of Hannukah and of Christmas. Most Christians don't make a big deal of the crucifix at Christmas, but some do, especially if they're trying to make a point.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

No, it ran at Easter, and Hart specifically called the menorrah "a symbol of Passover," which it isn't. At all.

It was like using a Christmas tree as a symbol of Easter.

[Katriona]

Originally Posted by CalMeacham

IIRC, the strip originally ran in December, the month of Hannukah and of Christmas. Most Christians don't make a big deal of the crucifix at Christmas, but some do, especially if they're trying to make a point.

It was his Easter strip that year. He probably used the Menorah just because it's a well-known symbol.

[Thing Fish]

Note in the linked article that he also said bread was a symbol of Passover!
Massive bigotry fail!!!

[Freudian Slit]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

No, it ran at Easter, and Hart specifically called the menorrah "a symbol of Passover," which it isn't. At all.

It was like using a Christmas tree as a symbol of Easter.

To me that reads like it's just using a Jewish symbol for the sake of using it, then. Or rather for the sake of putting it down. Like if there was some tie in with the Last Supper/Passover thing, that might be sort of interesting. But as it is...not really.

[Beware of Doug]

Dog whistle
A figure of speech or imagery intended to send a message to a certain segment of people, and be ignored by others (or at least provide deniability if others detect a message).

[Maus Magill]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

That's how I read it, and I'm not religious. But I suppose I could see the other reading.

As for the outhouse one, I think it's a stretch to consider that to be a slam on Islam. If it is, it's really, really subtle.

And towards the end, Hart was anything but subtle.

Team Stupid Joke.

[Larry Mudd]

Both of those strips go pretty far in validating the universal comic punchline theory.

Edit: The Piraro one works, too.

[choie]

If it's not meant to be a dig at Islam, what's the joke? Outhouses stink, a fact that BC (the character) is apparently ignorant of? Yeah, right. I agree Hart wasn't very funny post-1975 or so, but the "jokes" were bad, not non-existant. Here there's no joke whatsoever, just a guy going into an outhouse and complaining that it's stinky. There's a message here, folks, and it ain't that BC has never been in an outhouse before.

[Chronos]

The outhouse one is pretty clearly just your standard juvenile potty humor. The crescent moon is the symbol for an outhouse, and the "slam" is necessary to indicate that he's gone into the outhouse. It's vertical (in the shape of an "I", if you insist) because that's the way to fit it in between panels.

[astro]

Originally Posted by Chronos

The outhouse one is pretty clearly just your standard juvenile potty humor. The crescent moon is the symbol for an outhouse, and the "slam" is necessary to indicate that he's gone into the outhouse. It's vertical (in the shape of an "I", if you insist) because that's the way to fit it in between panels.

You're a very smart guy... but come on. The panel makes no sense without the Islam context. Simply walking into a bathroom and proclaiming it stinks isn't a joke or a punchline, even for someone as lazy as Hart.

[Larry Mudd]

Originally Posted by Chronos

The outhouse one is pretty clearly just your standard juvenile potty humor. The crescent moon is the symbol for an outhouse, and the "slam" is necessary to indicate that he's gone into the outhouse. It's vertical (in the shape of an "I", if you insist) because that's the way to fit it in between panels.

I tend to agree that this strip may have been intended as a dig against Islam - largely because of how unnecessary (and awkward) the SLAM is. The strip would have flowed much better if buddy was shown closing the door.

I do recall that Hart sometimes used giant "sound words" in the interstitial spaces of his strips, but this doesn't really do a very good job of saying "Buddy has reached the top of the hill, entered, and closed the door." Why is it necessary for him to have SLAMMED the door with all of the emphasis of Fat Broad WHAMMING a snake?

True - if this was a Jim Davis strip, I doubt I would give this interpretation much weight. However, it's Johnny Hart. I think he was deliberately (if ineptly) propagandizing.

[Pleonast]

As a Christian I find the menorah-cross strip to be offensive just because it's using religious symbols (both Christian and Jewish) in unflattering ways.

My impression about the outhouse strip is it's a joke about how stinky one's own shit is. He doesn't notice the smell until he's been in there a while. That is, after his business had progressed. Self-deprecation is a common form of humor.

Trying to get analytic about it, there's an obvious parallel between the moon on the outhouse and the moon in world. I think that's saying it's not just the outhouse that's stinky but the world as a whole. The strip is saying our shit is stinking up the whole world. More a political statement than humor.

I guess I don't associate the moon with Islam, so that didn't even occur to me. Trying to find an "I" around "SLAM" is like trying to find "SEX" in the background of a Disney cartoon. Simply silly.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by astro

You're a very smart guy... but come on. The panel makes no sense without the Islam context. Simply walking into a bathroom and proclaiming it stinks isn't a joke or a punchline, even for someone as lazy as Hart.

I don't understand how people are saying they are not seeing the humor in the strip, and that the only way the punchline works is with the Islam context. Fred Basset got by on much worse punchlines. I mean, seriously, people. It's just a bad nyuk-nyuk kind of joke that I could imagine my wacky uncle saying. It's mildly amusing as is. With the Islam interpretation, it's just weird.

[Peter Morris]

Okay, have you any other evidence of Hart's anti-Jewish, anti-Islamic stance? Anything besides dubious interpretations of just two cartoons? And just being pro-Christian doesn't count. It's possible to be a fundie without hating other religions.

[Chronos]

Well, I can see people saying that it's not funny, or that the punchline doesn't work, but I'd expect that they should at least see how it's supposed to be funny.

The real test, I think: If nobody told you that "SLAM" written vertically was supposed to mean "Islam", or presented the strip as something potentially offensive, and you just saw it in the course of reading the comics page in the newspaper, would the Islam connection have ever occurred to you? Myself, I would have just thought, "Hm, that wasn't very funny today", and moved on to Wizard of Id.

[Ellis Aponte Jr.]

I was just going to say, when I first looked at the second strip I didn't register the SLAM part and I still thought it was an anti-Islamic statement. Adding the SLAM to the equation just really slams the point home. Also, why the second crescent moon in the sky? Coincidence? No way. And no, I don't see any joke in there otherwise... but then I don't have any wacky uncles.

[UncaStuart]

Originally Posted by Larry Mudd

I tend to agree that this strip may have been intended as a dig against Islam - largely because of how unnecessary (and awkward) the SLAM is. The strip would have flowed much better if buddy was shown closing the door.

I do recall that Hart sometimes used giant "sound words" in the interstitial spaces of his strips, but this doesn't really do a very good job of saying "Buddy has reached the top of the hill, entered, and closed the door." Why is it necessary for him to have SLAMMED the door with all of the emphasis of Fat Broad WHAMMING a snake?

Agree. The SLAM is awkward, and if it were just a potty joke it would work better without it. The first panel is the setup, the second is the "wait for it," and the third is the, er, punchline. Interjecting the SLAM messes the timing up for no advantage in the, er, storytelling.