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  #1  
Old 07-20-2010, 07:26 PM
hotflungwok hotflungwok is online now
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What happens after you get arrested?

So you committed a crime, jaywalking or something, and the police come to get you. They break down your door, shoot your dog, taser your cat, verbally threaten your hamster, and then handcuff you and take you away.

So what happens then? Are you pretty much in jail from that point on till you have to go to court? Do they have separate areas for 'we just got this guy, haven't questioned him yet' and 'this guy can't pay his bail so he stays here' ? I know that the 'one phone call' thing is a myth, so how do you make sure your cat & hamster get fed? Your rent & bills get paid while you're locked up? What if you have something cooking on the stove? Medicine you need to live? A Dr appointment tomorrow? A kid at school?

These things never get covered in detail on CSI.
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  #2  
Old 07-20-2010, 08:15 PM
Rigamarole Rigamarole is offline
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What happened when I got arrested at age 17 is they took me down to the county jail, booked me, then threw me in a holding cell (with a bunch of other adult men even though I was under 18 - you don't get separated into juvenile / adult wards until you go "upstairs" to the actual jail jail). It was torturous because I had to stay the night there and if trying to sleep on hard wooden benches wasn't bad enough, every hour or so a guard would come in and for no apparent reason whatsoever rattle everyone awake and force us to move into another cell.

Inside the holding cells there was nothing except the aforementioned wooden benches, concrete floors, and a telephone with a list of bail bondsmen on the wall. After about 12 hours or so I got processed and sent upstairs - this is where I had to strip and give up my clothes/possessions and put on the orange jumpsuit*. It wasn't until the next afternoon that I actually got to go up in front of the judge who set the bail. At that point it took several more hours before they finished processing my bail and released me to my parents, a good 24 hours after the initial arrest. But trust me, the car ride home was a lot worse than the whole day in jail.

As far as arranging your affairs; I assume that's something you'd just have to get someone else to handle for you. If you have kids and absolutely no one else to take care of them I have no doubt the court has procedures in place for getting them into custody. With the other stuff I don't really know though.


*to jail's credit, those orange jumpsuits are really comfortable. I wanted to take mine home but they wouldn't let me.

Last edited by Rigamarole; 07-20-2010 at 08:18 PM..
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  #3  
Old 07-20-2010, 08:15 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotflungwok View Post
So you committed a crime, jaywalking or something, and the police come to get you. They break down your door, shoot your dog, taser your cat, verbally threaten your hamster, and then handcuff you and take you away.

So what happens then? Are you pretty much in jail from that point on till you have to go to court? Do they have separate areas for 'we just got this guy, haven't questioned him yet' and 'this guy can't pay his bail so he stays here' ? I know that the 'one phone call' thing is a myth, so how do you make sure your cat & hamster get fed? Your rent & bills get paid while you're locked up? What if you have something cooking on the stove? Medicine you need to live? A Dr appointment tomorrow? A kid at school?

These things never get covered in detail on CSI.
You will get a chance to call your lawyer or anyone else that can make bail for you. No, it's not specifically "one phone call", but in general they will let you make one from their phone, and afterwards you can access a payphone, often one that makes very expensive collect calls.

The ACLU has a great site for this:
http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-...what-do-if-you

If you can't call anyone to make bail or if you have no lawyer, they will appoint one for you, and you will a short time later go to a hearing. It's about 48-72 hours until then, more if it's a weekend.

What to do:
Ask if you are free to leave. If the officer says yes, calmly and silently walk away. If you are under arrest, you have a right to know why.
You have the right to remain silent and cannot be punished for refusing to answer questions. If you wish to remain silent, tell the officer out loud. In some states, you must give your name if asked to identify yourself. ...
Say you wish to remain silent and ask for a lawyer immediately. Don't give any explanations or excuses. If you can't pay for a lawyer, you have the right to a free one. Don't say anything, sign anything or make any decisions without a lawyer.


In other words, other than giving basic identification, once they have taken you into custody or read you your rights say only two things "Am I free to go?" "I want to speak to my/an attorney". Say nothing else no matter how innocent you are. Really.

IANAL.
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  #4  
Old 07-20-2010, 08:30 PM
Rigamarole Rigamarole is offline
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Originally Posted by Rigamarole View Post
After about 12 hours or so I got processed and sent upstairs - this is where I had to strip and give up my clothes/possessions and put on the orange jumpsuit*.
Slight correction to this - I meant just clothes; possessions were given up immediately on entering the jail (including shoelaces! Don't want anyone trying to hang themselves or garrote their cellmates) and it was probably more like 8 hours in the holding cells.

I think my processing times were especially long because A: I got arrested late at night and B: It was the start of the weekend and they were processing all the prisoners coming in to serve weekend sentences as part of the work release program for nonviolent offenders.
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  #5  
Old 07-20-2010, 09:24 PM
Amblydoper Amblydoper is offline
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I got arrested once for missing a traffic ticket court date. The date was 4 months after the ticket was issued, and I honestly forgot about it. Cop caught me speeding shortly after, and arrested me.

After arriving at the jail, I was searched, "booked" and I received my speeding ticket from the cop. Then I was allowed to try to post my bail with a credit card. My card was accepted, I received my things, and I was escorted to the waiting area to wait for a cab.

All that took about 3 or 4 hours, and during that time, I got to sit in a relatively comfortable chair and watch a LOST marathon on a tiny TV. It wasn't horrible. It seemed like a long and unreasonably drawn out process, but i didn't mind so much.
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  #6  
Old 07-21-2010, 12:03 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Circa 1983, Athens GA.

For some longforgotten reason I changed my pants before heading out to meet someone. She had given me the address. For now let's call it 99 Something Street.

I peel off the main intersection and start looking for mailboxes and house address signs. first one I see says 101 Something Street. Next one is 103 Something Street. Damn, it's behind me. Make a convenient U turn in courtesy of someone's driveway and try the other side of the intersection. 88 Something Street. 84 Something Street. WTF? I had it right the first time just sailed past it?

Another U turn. thru the big intersection this time watching ReallyClose for a secret hidden driveway. Like ThatOneOOPSRightHere. SlamOnBrakes. KaWHAM, car behind me climbs up my rear bumper. Some pissed off debutante sorority female ranting at me about the worth of her car and how dare I. I wait for cops, being polite and noncommital to her. Cops show up. All is going my way until they ask for driver's license. Hmm, wallet wallet WTF? OK sir some form of ID? Umm...ohfuck oops...

They charge me with no license, with making a dead stop in an intersection, and haul me off to jail.

I get fingerprinted. Then told to strip and offered some suspiciously chemical looking soap and told to shower, which I do. Issued prison scrubs. Taken to cell. Opportunity for phone call: "Hi grandma? Umm, I'll pay you back, I forgot my wallet, I need to get bailed out?"

Dunno what would have happened had I not known someone who could come get me. Probably nothing nice.

I researched the law, showed up for court hearing, showed I was not "in the intersection" as the law section and paragraph defined it, won my case. Avoided liability for the collision.

Sorority chick's fraternity boyfriend chased me down at a pot party and wanted to have a fight. Bloody hell. It's not my fault your GF can't drive. Yo, following too closely?
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  #7  
Old 07-21-2010, 07:02 AM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
If you are under arrest, you have a right to know why.
Do you have a cite for this? I don't think the officer needs to tell the suspect anything more than "you're under arrest" for it to be a lawful arrest. The person has no right to have the charge explained to him until well after he is booked.
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  #8  
Old 07-21-2010, 09:51 AM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Do you have a cite for this? I don't think the officer needs to tell the suspect anything more than "you're under arrest" for it to be a lawful arrest. The person has no right to have the charge explained to him until well after he is booked.
Good question. I'd like a cite too. I was always under the impression they had to tell you the grounds for arrest - otherwise the police could just pick people off the street and figure out why over the next 24 to 72 hours.

I assumed unless the police just happened upon the crime or hot pursuit and had the evidence in front of them, they need a warrant (even if it is phoned or radioed to them).
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  #9  
Old 07-21-2010, 10:03 AM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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As for the OP question - finding someone to feed the cat once it recovers is your problem. Presumably if you don't make bail, you give your lawyer power of attorney over your bank account to pay the rent, or write cheques for your buddy to take care of it. Otherwise, Fluffy starves if you have no friends. the landlord holds your stuff and either stores it or sells it, depending on the landlord-tenant laws of the locality.

Assuming you are held without bail for the next few months...

Unless you follow Suzie Ormand and have the requisite 8 months of savings to live off of, you're totally screwed... especially if you pissed off your landlord or have some nice stuff. If you're lucky, your buddy will take care of your big-screen TV for 2 to 5. Of course, other than rent and hamster chow, your cost of living is way down. I'm betting you are not allowed to keep your chequebook in jail, although maybe you can redirect your mail, so you'd have to get your lawyer or some visitor to bring you cheques to sign for the electrical bills etc.

In a way, I suppose it's no different than being hit by a beer truck and being in a coma for a few months, except for the lower sympathy factor. The big deal I suppose is whether you can get someone to take care of the photo albums and important papers, or else you have nothing when you get out.

If you had something on the stove, probably you don't have to worry about all your possessions unless the police turn the stove off. But - your lawyer or friends would have to chase down the fire insurance forms for you... How many months do you have to file a claim?
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  #10  
Old 07-21-2010, 10:10 AM
kayaker kayaker is online now
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Originally Posted by Rigamarole View Post
*to jail's credit, those orange jumpsuits are really comfortable. I wanted to take mine home but they wouldn't let me.
Maybe this explains recidivism.
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  #11  
Old 07-21-2010, 10:36 AM
Lanzy Lanzy is offline
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It varies.

My first time I was only 6 and was picked up because the neighbors called due to no one but my sister (8) and I were home. We were kept in a large communal room and not allowed to wear shoes for about 2 weeks and fed 3 times a day in a large room. Nights were spent in a room for 12. Boys and girls were kept separate so for two weeks I waited until the parents were allowed to pick us up. [Memphis TN] 1960 obviously juvi court

Picked up for reckless driving in 1970 in Maynardville, TN I was doing 8 MPH in a school zone that was 15 MPH limit. The deputy tested my breath and changed the charge from drunk driving to reckless when I passed the test. I have never figured out why they pulled me over to begin with. I was allowed a phone call but no one answered and I was told One was it now shutup, so I waited 3 days to see a judge who fined me $175 and let me go. By some luck I had exactly $175 on me when arrested.

In 1972 I was picked up in Williamsbug KY for selling without a license. I had been dropped off by the team cheif and really did not even know which town I was in. I was taken to the ground and hit a few times with a night stick and handcuffed and thrown into the back of a squad car. After the team chief came and showed a actual permit for selling the charge was changed to public disturbance. I spent the week-end and was taken out of the cell and beaten 3 times. On monday the judge charged me with resisting arrest ( I didn't) and had me pay $700, which my wife had to wire to me.

No I don't like or trust cops anymore. The court system is pretty much run by petty tyrants in most towns and they do whatever they like to you. The advice upstream about leaving if possible and asking for a lawyer is correct.
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  #12  
Old 07-21-2010, 11:50 AM
Procrustus Procrustus is online now
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Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
As for the OP question - finding someone to feed the cat once it recovers is your problem. Presumably if you don't make bail, you give your lawyer power of attorney over your bank account to pay the rent, or write cheques for your buddy to take care of it.
Your lawyer doesn't want to do this, trust me. If you have enough money to hire a private lawyer, you have a friend somewhere to take care of your personal problems. If you don't have money, you have an over-worked public defender who won't consider this part of the job description (although I have known dedicated public defenders to go above and beyond on occasion.)
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:09 PM
jtgain jtgain is online now
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Originally Posted by Rigamarole View Post
What happened when I got arrested at age 17 is they took me down to the county jail, booked me, then threw me in a holding cell (with a bunch of other adult men even though I was under 18 - you don't get separated into juvenile / adult wards until you go "upstairs" to the actual jail jail). It was torturous because I had to stay the night there and if trying to sleep on hard wooden benches wasn't bad enough, every hour or so a guard would come in and for no apparent reason whatsoever rattle everyone awake and force us to move into another cell.

Inside the holding cells there was nothing except the aforementioned wooden benches, concrete floors, and a telephone with a list of bail bondsmen on the wall. After about 12 hours or so I got processed and sent upstairs - this is where I had to strip and give up my clothes/possessions and put on the orange jumpsuit*. It wasn't until the next afternoon that I actually got to go up in front of the judge who set the bail. At that point it took several more hours before they finished processing my bail and released me to my parents, a good 24 hours after the initial arrest. But trust me, the car ride home was a lot worse than the whole day in jail.

As far as arranging your affairs; I assume that's something you'd just have to get someone else to handle for you. If you have kids and absolutely no one else to take care of them I have no doubt the court has procedures in place for getting them into custody. With the other stuff I don't really know though.


*to jail's credit, those orange jumpsuits are really comfortable. I wanted to take mine home but they wouldn't let me.
This is spot on. I think that you and, er, a friend of mine went to the same jail. Except once during the night they fed us moldy bologna sandwiches and stale milk. And they keep it freezing ass cold inside so that tempers don't flare.
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2010, 12:34 PM
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is online now
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I just want to ask all of you here on the Group W bench...

Kid, have you rehabilitated yourself?
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  #15  
Old 07-21-2010, 01:19 PM
Markxxx Markxxx is offline
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I've not been arrested but I worked in a bail bonds office, so I know what others go through. At least in Illinois

When you're arrested, if you're kids are with you the social welfare of the district (city, county state) is notified and arrangments are made. This was irritating to some people as they were able to get their mum or someone else to take the kids but child welfare gets a report anyway.

If you have a car it'll be impounded at the arrestee's expense.

Booking consists of photographs, fingerprints, belongs are stored and documented and your issued "jail clothes"

If it's a minor charge the police have a choice to set bail or to issue an "I-bond" which is “individual bond,” also called a personal recognizance bond

In Illinois you're permitted a "reasonable number of phone calls" This is always at least one. And it starts over each time you are moved from station to station or station to lockup. The purpose of this is that the arrested person always can notify someone where they are being held

Bond and bail are different terms. Bail is what you pay to get out of jail till your trial. Bond is the amount you forfeit if you fail to appear. For example if you're bond is $10,000 your bail is usually 10% or $1,000. If you fail to appear on your date then the court can keep the $10,000 posted.

Bail bonds agencies bond people out and keep part of the bond as a fee. For example where I worked, we kept anywhere from 5% to 20% (depending on the type of crime and the chance fleeing.) So in if the bond was $10,000 the agency would expect to be paid between $500 and $2,000) and that we kept. That was the agency fee whether or not you were found not guilty or guilty.

Public defenders are assigned by the court. You can only get a free public defender if you're income qualifies for it and it must be a criminal, not civil case.

One thing people fail to realize is, at least in Illinois, over 90% of people using public defenders meet them the day of their case trail or the day before it. You usually don't spend much time with one.

As for whether or not you have to be told why you are being arrested. It's kind of a trick question. The courts have ruled you can be held, which is a form of arrest in itself, for a reasonable amount of time. In Illinois courts have ruled this should be as soon as possible but in all cases within 72 hours of being taken into custody.

So you see the phrase "arrested" is somewhat vague.

To a layman being taken into custody is being "arrest" to a legal mind that isn't being arrest, but being held.

In Illinois the courts have ruled, even when you're being taken into custody you must be given some basic or general explination of why you're being held. For instance, "there was a murder in the area and you may be connected to it."

But in reality you when charges are laid; it could be for the murder, it could be for having your name of a packet of drugs, found on the dead guy, it could be for stealing car that the murder stole off you, you see what I mean. It can be a very "general" reason.

After 72 hours the police have three choices, charge you, let you go or have you go before a judge to have the stay continued. In Illinois the courts have ruled the police can hold you as long as they reasonably feel they need to.

For instance, if after 72 hours the police feel you'd leave and tell someone something that hinders the investigation they go before a judge, state their reasons and you can be held longer. You have a right to challange this detention.

One thing to remember if you say to the police "Am I free to leave." And they say "yes," It's actually up to you to leave. If you choose to stay, the detention is automatically legal.

Of course in real life it doesn't work this way.

I recall one group of young women our agency bailed out. There were four of them and it involved crack. One of them had a little girl and had to get home, so the cops said, sign a confession and you can go on an "I-bond." She did it. The other three refused and spent about 24 hours before we bailed them out. Long story short, the cops blew the arrest and the judge threw out the evidence and the three girls got off scott free.

But the one who signed the confession didn't. And she now has a felony conviction.

See how it works sometimes

The cops can also do things like, "You don't have to talk to us. You an wait in the holding cell with that enormous man who hates everyone, or you can talk to us and stay on this bench."

That is one thing that surprised me most about working at the bond agency is how people will sell each other out and make deals with the cops to get any time or chance to leave the police station. You always see on movies, "never snitch." Maybe that still applies to mafia kingpins but in Chicago, especially "the hood" they sell each other out for virtually any consideration
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:18 PM
klintypooh klintypooh is offline
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I'm in England, so my experiences may be different but last time I was arrested was Feb 16th 2006. I was taken to the local station, booked in, waited for a solicitor, examined by the on call doctor, interviewed and then put in a cell overnight.

Then the following afternoon I was told the offence I was being charged with, released and told to come back in about 4-6 weeks time (obviously I was given a set date, I just can't recall what it was).

The process of being bailed for weeks at a time continued for a few months, when I was told the CPS were charging me with something much more serious. Then I was sent to Magistrates Court to get a date for Crown Court. This took a further few months to come to fruition, with me being messed about many times, being told to go to court one day just to find out I'm in the following week, only having 18 hours notice I was due in court etc.

Eventually I was convicted in July 07, so the process can be quite drawn out and even though in a lot of cases you're "free" inbetween the original arrest and the court date/conviction, having the possibility of prison hanging over you for so long isn't a fun thing to experience.
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  #17  
Old 07-21-2010, 04:41 PM
DogRatCat DogRatCat is offline
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This is your asshole before jail: ----> .

And this is your asshole afterward: ----> O

Any questions?
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  #18  
Old 07-21-2010, 05:04 PM
SunSandSuffering SunSandSuffering is offline
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Q: "What happens after you get arrested?"
A: You get fucked up the ass by Mr Big (who's in with the wardens)
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Old 07-21-2010, 06:37 PM
Baron Skinley Von Clipper Baron Skinley Von Clipper is offline
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1999, Reading, U.K.

I was arrested for criminal damage*, taken to a car park underneath the police station and pushed out of the back of a police van onto a concrete floor. I was unable to break my fall as my hands were cuffed behind my back. Somehow I only received minor cuts and bruising to my knees, elbows, shoulders and face.

I was later released due to "a lack of evidence." Needless to say I have very little respect for the police anymore.

*I smashed my own TV in my own home.
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Old 07-21-2010, 07:10 PM
Chefguy Chefguy is online now
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I worked with cops in a small town. For misdemeanors, we'd take someone in, search them, print them, then allow them to call somebody to post bail. If they couldn't post bail, then off to the county hoosegow, which had more cells. Most frat kids just tapped into their fraternity bail fund to post the $250 for DUI.

The best one was the kid who just kept saying "fuck you" to every question. Cops usually roll with the verbal insults and bide their time, knowing their opportunity will come. This went on for a short while until it came to the request to "empty your pockets on the table". "Fuck you" was the reply. Cop jumps up, says "you don't have a choice, bub", slams him face down on the desk and does a very rough body search. You're not going to win in the long run, so cooperation is the best tack to take.
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  #21  
Old 07-21-2010, 09:12 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Do you have a cite for this? I don't think the officer needs to tell the suspect anything more than "you're under arrest" for it to be a lawful arrest. The person has no right to have the charge explained to him until well after he is booked.
Umm, perhaps the ACLU whose website I cited and who I was quoting?


http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-...what-do-if-you
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:42 AM
GiantRat GiantRat is offline
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When I lived in West New York, NJ last year, I accumulated an absurd number of parking tickets (triple digits in less than a year). The tickets were routinely invalid (no parking 8am-9am, ticketed at 3am and similar), but going to court takes literally an entire day (the municipal court combines parking, traffic, criminal and - amazingly - juvenile truancy into the same sessions). As a result of these tickets (and the DMV changing my SSN for no reason), my license was suspended. When I was pulled over in another town for having the audacity to pull into a parking lot to turn around, I was arrested and transferred to West New York.

To the OP, in my case I was never allowed to make a phone call. My girlfriend (who was with me when I was taken in and drove my car home) was unable to find any indication of where I was, what I was charged with, or when I would be released. I asked repeatedly to make a phone call to her so that I could figure out how to pay the $5,300 bail (for parking tickets!!). They would only accept cash that I had in my pocket (I was um.... a bit shy of $5300). At about 3am, the "good cop" agreed to make a phone call to her on my behalf, but insisted that I couldn't make a call on my own until being released by the judge (and if the judge didn't release me, I wouldn't be able to make a call - even to a bondsman). Fortunately, my panicked girlfriend was able to track down a bondsman and figure out where I was (she had been told that I was in the local jail, but that I'd be going to county at an unidentified time).

Never go to jail in that town. I've worked in law enforcement and seen plenty of jail cells. These had no running water (even for the toilet - unflushed for several years, by all appearances), the walls were stained with a variety bodily fluids, and, as someone mentioned earlier, it was extremely cold (and my shirt and shoes were taken away.

I've now had 5 court appearances (ultimately resulting in 2/3 of the tickets being dismissed for being illegitimate), have thousands of dollars in lawyer fees, and lost my job for missing work so many times (to go to court).

Stay the f*ck out of Hudson County, NJ, at all costs.
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  #23  
Old 07-22-2010, 02:18 PM
klintypooh klintypooh is offline
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Oh, I forgot about this story.

When I was roughly 15, I was arrested for a burglary (breaking and entering) that I didn't commit, nor have I ever done. After the usual fingerprints etc were taken, I was led to a room where I had all of my clothes removed, apart from my underwear for forensic evidence.

Now at the time these clothes were nearly new, but even after CCTV evidence showed me nowhere near the house that had been broken into whilst I was supposedly in the house, the police kept my clothes for at least 6 months.

When they returned them finally...I'd grown out of them.

Boo and hiss!
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  #24  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:30 PM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Umm, perhaps the ACLU whose website I cited and who I was quoting?


http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-...what-do-if-you
Ummmmm, perhaps do you have a legitimate cite? ACLU does not pass legislation, and they do not mention any relevant laws on the page you link to.

On that same page, they make the statement, "If you are not under arrest, you have the right to calmly leave." This is not universally true, if not outright false. Though some jurisdictions may have found that any detention in which a person cannot legally walk away constitutes an arrest, this isn't the case everywhere.
In Florida, it is still legal for an officer to detain you under certain conditions where he believes you just committed, are committing or are about to committ a crime. These stops are legal detentions and not arrests. The officer would need probable cause to arrest you, but he only needs reasonable suspicion to detain you. If you were so detained and you asked the officer if you were under arrest, he would say, "No." However, you would not be free to leave, and any attempt on your part to do so would be a crime. So it is much better to ask, "Am I free to leave?", instead of assuming you are free to leave simply because you are not under arrest. Not to mention traffic stops. Do you think a person is under arrest during a traffic stop? Do you think he is free to "calmly leave" since he isn't under arrest? That's what your link is saying. ummmmm, perhaps you can understand now why your link is no cite at all.


Now, about your claim on which I asked for a cite. Do you have any law or legal decision you can share? Or is that it? Because it would seem they are trying to say that an officer cannot arrest someone without first telling the person. I do not believe that informing the suspect is an element of a lawful arrest. Someone cannot resist arrest on the basis that the officer did not inform him of the charges and therefore the arrest is unlawful. It is still a lawful arrest. The officer does not have to tell you why to effectively arrest you. Merely telling you that you are under arrest is enough. And in fact, in many jurisdictions, he doesn't even need to do that. If the suspect should have reasonably known he was being arrested based on the officer's actions, (ie. getting out handcuffs, placing his hands on the suspect) it's a lawful arrest. At that point, you are legally under arrest and trying to stall by demanding that the officer tell you why before he puts the cuffs on you is only going to make things worse for you and possibly lead to resisting charges!
You do have a right to hear the charges against you, but it's called arraignment. The officer is under no obligation to explain your charges, and you have no right to hear them while you are being arrested.
I do not believe that any court in the United States has ruled that it is a right of a citizen to know why he is being arrested. Unless of course you can provide a site that proves otherwise, which is all I was asking to begin with.
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:48 PM
Kobal2 Kobal2 is offline
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The cops can also do things like, "You don't have to talk to us. You an wait in the holding cell with that enormous man who hates everyone, or you can talk to us and stay on this bench."
Can't you sue them if you get assaulted on their watch ? Or raped in prison for that matter ?
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:01 PM
Baron Skinley Von Clipper Baron Skinley Von Clipper is offline
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Can't you sue them if you get assaulted on their watch ? Or raped in prison for that matter ?
I wouldn't have thought so, the police are essentially a gang. As I said upthread, I was assaulted by the police although I had done nothing wrong, when I tried to complain about my treatment I was told "It's your word against six of us, who is the magistrate going to believe?".
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:42 PM
Baron Skinley Von Clipper Baron Skinley Von Clipper is offline
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In fact, the police in this country are now allowed to murder people in broad daylight, on camera, with no fear of prosecution.

Google "Ian tomlinson G20".

Today I am ashamed to be English. Disgusted.

Government sanctioned murder

Last edited by Baron Skinley Von Clipper; 07-22-2010 at 05:47 PM..
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:16 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Ummmmm, perhaps do you have a legitimate cite? ACLU does not pass legislation, and they do not mention any relevant laws on the page you link to.



Now, about your claim on which I asked for a cite. Do you have any law or legal decision you can share? Or is that it? Because it would seem they are trying to say that an officer cannot arrest someone without first telling the person.
I made no claim. I quoted a cite. It is the freaking ACLU- a well known and nationally recognized advocate for legal rights. Anyone who claims the ACLU is not a legitimate cite is being ignorant or specious. Nor do I need more of a cite. I came up with a perfectly legit cite. You don't like it, then you come up with a CITE that refutes mine. So far, ya got nuthin.

You are also perfectly able to email the ACLU and refute their site or ask for a clarification. Please do so. I'd like to see their response.

When come back, bring cite.
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:29 PM
The Tao's Revenge The Tao's Revenge is offline
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If you have a car it'll be impounded at the arrestee's expense.
Even if they don't charge you with anything, or you're case is dismissed or comes back not guilty or something?

Since impound fees can rack up faster then some people afford to pay them, and even the ones who can seems pretty shitty to just arbitrarily steal their money like that.
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:50 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Even if they don't charge you with anything, or you're case is dismissed or comes back not guilty or something?

Since impound fees can rack up faster then some people afford to pay them, and even the ones who can seems pretty shitty to just arbitrarily steal their money like that.
Pretty much. Sometimes if it's legal to park it there or you have a buddy who can come get it, they will be nice.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:48 PM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is online now
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I made no claim. I quoted a cite. It is the freaking ACLU- a well known and nationally recognized advocate for legal rights.
So basically you are saying that you have no knowledge of the matter, but your Google search turned up some unofficial statements on the ACLU's website. Got it.
That's the problem with people trying to answer questions with Google.

So you want me to go find some cites that prove a specific "Right" does not exist. That is a little more difficult than someone showing it does exist. Surely you can understand this. Yet you can't offer anything.
I will do my best to go find something that proves its nonexistance. I will look for something, but what I can tell you is that the only relevant right a person has is from the 6th Amendment, and this is right is satisfied at arraignment.

While I am looking for a good cite, you can use your Google-fu to look up Terry v Ohio and/or "arrest vs detention" for a legitimate legal cite explaining why the information on your ACLU page is not universally accurate. A person does not have the right to calmly walk away simply because he is not under arrest. If he is lawfully detained, he can't leave.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:58 PM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is online now
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When come back, bring cite.
FOUND IT! Kladis v Brezek.
http://vlex.com/vid/danny-kladis-leo...lling-37161770

In 1987, the 7th Circuit concluded that neither the 6th nor the 4th amendment provided the suspect the right to be informed of the reason for the arrest.
The obligation to inform him does not occur until the government actual commits itself to prosecution. And as I said, this happens at arraignment.

Quote:
We conclude that neither the Sixth Amendment nor the Fourth Amendment provided Kladis the right to be informed of the reason for his arrest. Although the Sixth Amendment provides an "accused" the right "to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation," U.S. Const.Amend. VI, we have previously explained that the Sixth Amendment's protection does not come into play until the government has committed itself to prosecution. See United States ex rel. Hall v. Lane, 804 F.2d 79, 82 (7th Cir.1986), cert. denied, --- U.S. ----, 107 S.Ct. 1382, 94 L.Ed.2d 696 (1987). Clearly, the state was not committed to prosecuting Kladis during the brief period he remained in custody. He therefore had no Sixth Amendment right to be informed of the reason for his arrest. The Fourth Amendment guarantee against unreasonable seizures might also provide a basis for the right to be informed of the reason for an arrest. However, the Fourth Amendment requires only that the police have probable cause to believe that an individual has broken the law before arresting him or her. See United States ex rel. LaBelle v. LaVallee, 517 F.2d 750, 754 (2d Cir.1975), cert. denied, 423 U.S. 1062 , 96 S.Ct. 803, 46 L.Ed.2d 655 (1976); United States v. Dunavan, 485 F.2d 201, 205 (6th Cir.1973); Chaney v. Wainwright, 460 F.2d 1263, 1264 (5th Cir.1972). In this case, the evidence is sufficient to support the jury's finding that the police had probable cause to believe that Kladis had committed a crime. Although the police would do well to inform arrested persons of the charges against them, the Fourth Amendment does not require the police to do so.

Last edited by Bear_Nenno; 07-22-2010 at 10:02 PM..
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  #33  
Old 07-22-2010, 11:37 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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So basically you are saying that you have no knowledge of the matter, but your Google search turned up some unofficial statements on the ACLU's website. Got it.
That's the problem with people trying to answer questions with Google.

.
No, the ACLU site is a well known and oft quoted cite on what to do when arrested and what your rights are. I have used it before, and none of the SDMB legal eagles have ever had a quibble with it. Thus, it is quoting a well known and reliable cite. It's hardly some random Google answer.
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  #34  
Old 07-22-2010, 11:52 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
FOUND IT! Kladis v Brezek.
http://vlex.com/vid/danny-kladis-leo...lling-37161770

In 1987, the 7th Circuit concluded that neither the 6th nor the 4th amendment provided the suspect the right to be informed of the reason for the arrest.
The obligation to inform him does not occur until the government actual commits itself to prosecution. And as I said, this happens at arraignment.
Well, you have to read what they say "If you are under arrest, you have a right to know why. " The ACLU does not say they have to inform you of all charges at the time of arrest.


But please feel free to write the ACLU, please feel free to inform such legal authorities like Ruth Bader Ginsburg- Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States. that they are wrong and you are right.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:46 AM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is online now
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Well, you have to read what they say "If you are under arrest, you have a right to know why. " The ACLU does not say they have to inform you of all charges at the time of arrest.
And as I said, they seem to imply this on the website. And when I asked about this specifically, instead of agreeing with me when I stated that it isn't required to tell a person why he is arrested until hours or even days after the arrest, you simply said I didn't know what I was talking about cause it's the ACLU!
Just admit you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
But please feel free to write the ACLU, please feel free to inform such legal authorities like Ruth Bader Ginsburg- Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States. that they are wrong and you are right.
I could wirte them and say that their website is misleading and tell them that this is the cause of many people resisting arrest while screaming "You have to tell me why you're arresting me! You have to tell me!"
But they likely would not reply.
I could also write them about their claim that a person is free to leave if he isn't under arrest. This is obviously false, as I have pointed out. A person can be legally detained while not under arrest. They likely would not reply to that email either. So why waste my time?
IDF gotta go.
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  #36  
Old 07-23-2010, 11:37 AM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is online now
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Okay, I'm back.
Anyway, I will go ahead and send them email. We'll see what they have to say. I am guessing it will identical to the whole Rod Powers and about.com thing, and they won't even reply. I'll let you know.
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2010, 08:22 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
And as I said, they seem to imply this on the website. And when I asked about this specifically, instead of agreeing with me when I stated that it isn't required to tell a person why he is arrested until hours or even days after the arrest, you simply said I didn't know what I was talking about cause it's the ACLU!
Just admit you have no idea what you're talking about.


I could wirte them and say that their website is misleading and tell them that this is the cause of many people resisting arrest while screaming "You have to tell me why you're arresting me! You have to tell me!"
But they likely would not reply.
I could also write them about their claim that a person is free to leave if he isn't under arrest. This is obviously false, as I have pointed out. A person can be legally detained while not under arrest. They likely would not reply to that email either. So why waste my time?
o.
Well, if there's a conflict between an Org that is so univeraslly respected and recognized as the ACLU (even if they are controversial, and I don't always agree with them) and the idea that perhaps a poster that is a teeny bit biased towards the Police might just possibly have misread or jumped to conclusions, I think the choice is obvious.

I actually do, but since some people jump all over any poster who isnt a lawyer for "giving legal advice" I let my cite do the talking. Thus, I am not giving advice, opinion or anything but a cite.

Bricker and Gfactor have explained the small legal gradients and differences between "arrested" and "detained" and what not elsewhere. I'll shoot them a PM and ask them to return here and explain.

I will also ask Gfactor to give us his opinion on the trustworthness in general of stuff on the ACLU site. Whether or not that they are "not legitimate" as you claimed.
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2010, 09:35 PM
Gfactor Gfactor is offline
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While it is assuredly good police practice to inform a person of the reason for his arrest at the time he is taken into custody, we have never held that to be constitutionally required.

* * * *
Even absent a requirement that an individual be informed of the reason for arrest when he is taken into custody, he will not be left to wonder for long. "[P]ersons arrested without a warrant must promptly be brought before a neutral magistrate for a judicial determination of probable cause." County of Riverside v. McLaughlin, 500 U. S. 44, 53 (1991)
Devenpeck v. Alford, (SCOTUS 2004) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bi...0&invol=03-710

From Does the arresting officer have to tell you "on what charge."

Last edited by Gfactor; 07-23-2010 at 09:41 PM..
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:46 PM
Gfactor Gfactor is offline
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On a related television meme, see that "one phonecall" when people are arrested.

The OP might appreciate:What to Expect When Going to Jail: The Booking Process American Chronicle, March 17, 2007.

Last edited by Gfactor; 07-23-2010 at 09:53 PM..
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2010, 10:02 PM
Gfactor Gfactor is offline
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While there is no constitutional requirement for this information, some state laws require it. E.g., http://www.legalupdateonline.com/4th/269#cont270:
Quote:
P.C. § 841: Information to be Provided: The person making the arrest must inform the person being arrested of the following:

* The intention to arrest him;
* The cause of the arrest (i.e., the charges); and
* The authority to make it.

(People v. Superior Court (Logue) (1973) 35 Cal.App.3rd 1, 5.)

Exceptions: There is no need to comply with the above when:

* The person making the arrest has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested is actually engaged in the commission of, or an attempt to commit, an offense (See People v. Darnell (1951) 107 Cal.App.2nd 541 545; People v. Thomas (1957) 156 Cal.App.2nd 117, 130; People v. Valenzuela (1959) 171 Cal.App.2nd 331, 333.); or
* The person to be arrested is pursued immediately after commission of the offense, or after an escape. (See People v. Pool (1865) 27 Cal. 572, 576; Allen v. McCoy (1933) 135 Cal.App. 500, 508; People v. Campbell (1972) 27 Cal.App.3rd 849, 854; and Johanson v. Department of Motor Vehicles (1995) 36 Cal.App.4th 1209, 1218.)

Even where an exception applies, if the arrestee asks what he or she is being arrested for, he or she must be told. (P.C. § 841)
Same with phone calls:

Quote:
Right to Telephone Calls:

Right to Telephone Calls, per P.C. § 851.5: An arrested person has the right, immediately after booking and, except when physically impossible, no later than three (3) hours after arrest, to make at least three (3) completed telephone calls. The calls are to be free if completed in the local calling area, and are at the arrestee's expense if outside the local area. The calls must be allowed immediately on request, or as soon as practicable. The calls may be made to:

* An attorney of the arrestee's choice, public defender, or other attorney assigned to assist indigents (which may not be monitored).
* A bail bondsman.
* A relative or other person.

This information, including the phone number of the public defender or other attorney assigned to assist indigent defendants, must be posted.

An arrestee who is identified during the booking process as a custodial parent of a minor child is entitled to make two additional (for a total of five) local telephone calls for the purpose of arranging child care. (subd. (c))

If the arrestee so requests, the three telephone calls shall be allowed "immediately," or as soon as is practicable. (subd. (d))

This section is not intended to "abrogate a law enforcement officer's duty to advise a suspect of his or her right to counsel or of any other right." (subd. (e))

It is a misdemeanor to willfully deprive an arrested person of these rights. (subd. (f))

The only recognized exception to this rule is "physical impossibility." (Carlo v. City of Chino (9th Cir. 1997) 105 F.3d 493.)

However, the alleged fact that defendants were denied right to call an attorney immediately after they were booked had no bearing on admissibility of any extrajudicial statements made prior to time when defendants were booked. (People v. Stout (1967) 66 Cal.2nd 184.)
http://www.legalupdateonline.com/4th/277

And:
http://www.lexisone.com/lx1/caselaw/...=y&l1loc=FCLOW (Iowa case on right to phone call).

Last edited by Gfactor; 07-23-2010 at 10:04 PM..
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  #41  
Old 07-24-2010, 02:38 AM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Good info, thank you. I bow in your direction.

Now Bear, who is a generally intelligent and knowledgeable poster, seems to think that these conflict with the ACLU's site. Is he reading too much into it? Or is the ACLU being overly optimistic or vague?
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  #42  
Old 07-24-2010, 09:11 AM
Bisected8 Bisected8 is offline
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Originally Posted by Baron Skinley Von Clipper View Post
In fact, the police in this country are now allowed to murder people in broad daylight, on camera, with no fear of prosecution.

Google "Ian tomlinson G20".

Today I am ashamed to be English. Disgusted.

Government sanctioned murder
Oh get over yourself, he was only shoved over and the footage before that showed he was being an arse (walking slowly in front of the police). There's certainly evidence this lead to his death and the officer was definitely in the wrong but calling it "government sanctioned murder" is an exaggeration to the point where it becomes shameful.
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Old 07-24-2010, 10:21 AM
Visual Purple Visual Purple is offline
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Originally Posted by Markxxx View Post
One thing people fail to realize is, at least in Illinois, over 90% of people using public defenders meet them the day of their case trail or the day before it. You usually don't spend much time with one.
Maybe the day of arraignment or maybe in a low-level misdemeanor case. In the hundreds of Illinois case records I've seen, I've never seen one without obvious signs of a lawyer's (usually PD's) ongoing participation--even in cases that end in a guilty plea. Defendants always complain that the PDs are ignoring them, and certainly most of them aren't getting as much attention as would be ideal. Three or four meetings and several phone calls seems typical. The (fortunately rare) instances I've seen of lawyers really screwing things up have been with lawyers in general practice somehow wandering into a criminal case. That can be a disaster.

----

I have no way of proving who I am here, but I am a lawyer with a lot of experience in criminal law, albeit at the appellate level. The ACLU cite site is one I know as a reputable source.
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  #44  
Old 07-24-2010, 11:44 AM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is online now
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
I will also ask Gfactor to give us his opinion on the trustworthness in general of stuff on the ACLU site. Whether or not that they are "not legitimate" as you claimed.
It's not that they are not a legitimate organization. That isn't what I was trying to say. I just mean they are not a legitimate legal cite. They even put a disclaimer on their site that says it should not be taken as legal advise and that laws may vary by location. So they are a good site for general information, but are not a legitimate cite (with a "C"). I would have expected them to actually provide cites on their site, but they didn't have any.

FWIW, I sent them an email explaining that the wording on their Bust Card is misleading at best and suggested changes to make it more universal and prevent potential misunderstandings on the part of the card carrier. I asked them for clarification on their view, their opinion of what I have pointed out, and any legal cites which would justify their decision to not make any changes.

My email has made it past the initial review and is being forwarded to their legal department. I will let everyone know what their response is.

Last edited by Bear_Nenno; 07-24-2010 at 11:48 AM..
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  #45  
Old 07-24-2010, 11:56 AM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is online now
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BTW, I apologize for the tone of my response to you at #24 and #31, DrDeth. At the time, the "Umm, perhaps . . ." reply from you seemed a bit condescending and dismissive. Must have been one of those days. The Stan will do that to ya, I guess.
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  #46  
Old 07-24-2010, 12:28 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
BTW, I apologize for the tone of my response to you at #24 and #31, DrDeth. At the time, the "Umm, perhaps . . ." reply from you seemed a bit condescending and dismissive. Must have been one of those days. The Stan will do that to ya, I guess.
Yes, and I was being a too defensive myself. Sorry.

Good to see they are listening. I think it's really more a matter of wording and interpretation. Perhaps they need to make that more clear.
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:35 PM
Gfactor Gfactor is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Good info, thank you. I bow in your direction.

Now Bear, who is a generally intelligent and knowledgeable poster, seems to think that these conflict with the ACLU's site. Is he reading too much into it? Or is the ACLU being overly optimistic or vague?
I'd say they were trying to simplify for a lay audience, and perhaps that statement was originally designed for distribution in a state like CA, that does give arrestee's a statutory right to be informed of the charges, especially if the arrestee asks. The site doesn't say you have a constitutional right to learn the reason for arrest--it just says you have a right. Beyond that, I've not done a 50 state survey on the issue of right to learn the charges, so it could also be that just about every state gives arrestees those rights.

I'll also be interested to see the result of Bear_Nenno's email, and I hope he will bump this thread when he gets a response.
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:42 PM
Gfactor Gfactor is offline
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FWIW, as a practical matter, I'm not sure I would recommend some of the stuff the ACLU suggests. In most cases, you're going to be fairly sure why you are being arrested anyway. And as the case I cited points out, if you are curious, you're gonna find out soon enough anyway.

I'd really rather have a client say as little as possible during an uncounseled confrontation with the cops. And it's not as if you'll be able to talk them out of arresting you. I certainly don't advise trying. So I guess, I don't see the benefit of asking for the information--is it just so you can answer accurately when the other prisoners ask you what you're in for?
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Old 07-26-2010, 07:44 AM
rbroome rbroome is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
BTW, I apologize for the tone of my response to you at #24 and #31, DrDeth. At the time, the "Umm, perhaps . . ." reply from you seemed a bit condescending and dismissive. Must have been one of those days. The Stan will do that to ya, I guess.
Yes, and I was being a too defensive myself. Sorry.

Good to see they are listening. I think it's really more a matter of wording and interpretation. Perhaps they need to make that more clear.
thanks
There aren't many websites where conversations get a bit testy and the members realize it and act like responsible adults. I love the Dope.
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Old 07-26-2010, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Gfactor View Post
is it just so you can answer accurately when the other prisoners ask you what you're in for?
My suggestion there is to stare off into space and say, "They is saying I killed some folks; a fellas gotta eat, ya know".
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