Georgia Flag Debate

Great Debates
1

The current flag of Georgia prominently displays the Confederate Battle Flag. There are those who would have it removed. I, personally, do not give a flaming rat’s ass. To me, it’s just a piece of cloth. However, the governor has decided to ram this:
http://198.144.4.55/images/gastateflag.jpg
down the throats of the state legislature. It looks as though it’s going to pass the full senate. My particular problem is that I feel that the citizens of the state should decide what the new flag should look like.

What do you guys think?

2

Well if it says “georgias history” it better have the confederate battle flag:)

The citizens of the state could never actually decide on a flag though. Unless you want to poll for every design possible.

3

That’s the ugliest damned flag I have ever seen. A history lesson? Gosh, why not just have the periodic table?

Why can’t Georgia dump the race-baiting flag and adopt a real flag, e.g. something you could more or less draw freehand, with some simple and meaningful symbolism?

4

Uh… isn’t that what the legislature is for? I don’t recall any stories of a referendum on the design of the Stars & Stripes.

5

As my views of Confederate sympathizers, apologists, and romantic glorifiers were spelt out here, suffice to say I am against that flag.

6

So, your saying that flag should be removed because its a part of history that has a political attachment? Its a rather big piece of history to just conviently forget. Its not like theres a huge confederate flag and all the other ones circle it.

7

Is it just me, or does it strike anyone else as odd that a flag with “Moderation” as one of its pillars also has the stars & bars on it? It seems that if moderation is one of the pillars, they would avoid such a controversial topic. At least one of those things should go…

8

You mean like that simple Provicial Flag of Ontario? (You are from Toronto, eh?) :slight_smile:

I think it is pretty stupid to try to paint over the past history of the state, by trying to bury the fact that, yes, there was once slavery in Georgia, and it was one of the factors that led to the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression :D). It’s also pretty stupid to make the battle flag such a prominent part of the current flag. This seems like a good compromise.

9

Make that Provincial.

10

Of course we can’t forget it. Any more than Italy can forget the Mussolini era, but you don’t expect them to put any fascist symbols on their flag, do you?

(Notice how I avoided using the “N” or “H” words so I wouldn’t invoke Godwin’s Law?)

11

The biggest stink about the whole flag thing is the controversy surrounding its adoption in 1956. It was adopted supposedly as a tribute to those who fought in the Civil War (War Between the States, War of Northern Aggression, whatever). That decision just happened to coincide with the Supreme Court’s decision to end segregation in schools and elsewhere. Most people I’ve listened to (it’s not possible to debate this here without being called any number of names like liberal, communist, Yankee-lover, etc) favor the “pre-1956” flag (red-white-red horizontal stripes where the Battle flag is now). Hardcore “rebels” want to keep the current flag. Others want a new flag altogether (just not that attrocity you see at the link). A lot people think the governor should take on real problems in the state. Of course, he’s only worried about getting re-elected (in 2002) and doesn’t want to piss off the Blacks in the state or potential Black tourists (the NAACP has threatened a boycott like they’re doing in South Carolina).

Mississippi is next on the hit list since their flag features the “Stars and Bars” as well.

12

The Civil WAr was only about 2% of American history- so why do so many in the South insist on remembering JUST that very small portion? Why not the flag that was used for some 100 years BEFORE the war?

I have an idea as to why, but I’ll ask another question 1st. Why is Nathan Bedford Forrest, a very minor Confederate general (but also a founder of the KKK)- more glorified than even Robert E Lee, (who at least was one of Americas greatest generals, and a scholar & a gentleman to boot)? I think I have a guess- NBF was the “Stormtrooper” of American history, with his very racist “final solution”- and that agenda appeals to far too many in the “New South”.

The Confederate flag is not being used to “remember the past”- but, IMHO- it is used to glorify racism.

13

I HATE Ontario’s flag. :slight_smile:

Canada used to have a flag like that, the Red Ensign. It was basically the Ontario flag with the Canadian coat of arms where you see the Ontario coat of arms. It was hideous. Lots of very old royalist jerkoffs opposed the change to the Maple Leaf, and thank God we lost, since we now have a decent flag.

I don’t understand

A) Why the flag should be a “compromise,” or
B) How not having the battle flag on it is “painting over” history.

The Stars and Stripes, for instance, does not have a little history lesson that includes all the various flags that have flown over the U.S. at one time or another (which would include at least five non-US flags - Britain, France, Spain, Russia, and Mexico.) Rather, the Stars and Stripes is a relatively simple symbol of the United States. That’s why it’s a good flag. (I would balk at going too simple, as with most European flags, which are merely two or three stripes and often more or less the same as one another.)

Logically, the flag of Georgia really should have a Union Jack on it, too, so the"Georgia’s History" thing is bull. I’d be a lot more proud of having once been a British colony than having once been part of the Confederacy.

What would be wrong with just having the Great Seal of the State of Georgia on a blue field? Why is it so important to have the stupid CSA battle flag on there?

14

Thank God THEY lost. Preview your posts, dummy! (Slaps self in head)

15

Danielinthewolvesden:

Um, “more glorified” where, Danielinthewolvesden? I’m a native Atlantan, I’ve lived most of my life in Georgia, and I had never heard the name “Nathan Bedford Forrest” before last week when someone posted a question about the “I Ride With Forrest” bumper stickers.

Contrariwise, I can’t even remember a time when I didn’t know who Robert E. Lee was. Let’s have some perspective.

Speaking as a Georgian (one of the few contributing to this thread, it looks like) I’m agnostic on the issue of removing the current flag. I understand the feelings of black Georgians who think it’s racist. I also understand the feelings of other Georgians who say it means more than racism. I really don’t feel strongly either way.

But as for the new flag: it’s ugly and unimaginative. And, if the point is to get rid of the Dixie emblem, it fails, because it’s still on the new design as well. So what’s the point?

16

[feigned surprise]Last time I walked around the state of Georgia I noticed something. There’s a whole lot of Georgia residents with dark skin! Yes, I know; I was a bit startled as well.[/feigned surprise] I haven’t found one of these dark-skinned Georgia residents who feel the need to celebrate and honor a time in the state’s history when people who looked like they do were subjugated and enslaved.

The flag should definitely be changed. I’m not happy with the Gov’s proposal, but it’s much less divisive than the current flag.

BTW, in answer to those who, as Mr. Blue Sky mentioned, think the Governor should take on “real problems” in the state, I would point out South Carolina’s experience with the NAACP boycott. Loss of income from tourism would be a smaller problem for Georgia, but it would certainly be a “real” problem. I also wonder what these people think is being neglected while the Governor concentrates on the flag issue (because we all know legislatures and executives can only tackle one thing at a time. :rolleyes: )

17

  1. The new flag is spectacularly ugly.

  2. It doesn’t even get rid of the Confederate Battle Flag, it just makes it smaller.

  3. It was “rammed through” in the middle of the night with all sorts of political wheeling and dealing and arm-twisting. Personally, I don’t really care about that–I’m not fond of government by referendum, especially not on issues like this; that’s what we pay the state legislature for. But it gives supporters of the old flag something else to be aggrieved about.

Nonetheless, I was mildly if unenthusiastically supportive of the new flag. It’s a least a step in the right direction on the CBF issue; and most state flags in the U.S. are dull at best.

Then the state legislature amended the design to include In God We Trust down at the bottom.

Bah. I don’t want to support the old state flag, but this thing…

Well, anything else I could say, this would be the wrong forum for.

I have no state flag.

18

Ah, hell. I didn’t know about that (other images I’ve seen don’t show the slogan). I was hoping we’d have a flag that at least tried to represent all Georgia citizens; now they’ve excluded us non-God-trusting heathens.

Is irreverence no longer safe in the state of Georgia? Is nothing sacred anymore??

19

Like Five, I am also flag “agnostic” for the same reasons he is. That being said, the proposed new flag design looks like crap. It’s busy and tacky. Not only that, but you won’t even be able to see that stupid little flag chronology once it’s raised. The function of a flag is to act as a symbol, not a history text. Personally, I’d be much happier if they just went with the state seal on a solid blue field and left it at that.

Oh, and DITWD, I also agree with Five regarding Nathan Bedford Forrest. Robert E. Lee was a much more familiar figure to me as I was growing up in Georgia. NBF was just another Civil War general, among a plethora of other Confederate and Union generals, that I had to learn about in history class. In fact, he was all but forgotten to me until my mid 20s when I developed a personal interest in Civil War history.

Slight correction, Mr. Blue Sky, what you’re referring to as the “Stars and Bars” is not the Stars and Bars. This is the Stars and Bars. What you’re thinking of is known as the “Southern Cross,” “Confederate battle flag,” or “Navy Jack.” (See the same link.) I think the catch-all term would be “Southern Cross.”

20

I am a native Georgian. I’m also the great-grandson of two Confederate veterans.

I am in favor of changing the flag. A flag which purports to represent the people of Georgia, should represent all the people of Georgia. It should not be an emblem which polarizes the citizenry.

I do not like the proposed new flag, however. It is a cluttered mess. I think one local pundit had the right idea when he said that a state flag should be simple enough that a school child could draw it from memory. (I’m a big fan of South Carolina’s “palmetto and crescent moon” design, myself.)

I think we should go back to Georgia’s original flag which was just the state seal (three white columns) on a blue background. Nobody asked me, though.

As for RickJay’s comment:

Man, how Canadian can you get? :wink: We fought a war so we wouldn’t have to fly Union Jacks any more. Southerners tend to take pride in assertions of independence, not in broken ties to faded empires. :wink:

As for the Confederate battle flag, I understand those who have a certain sentimental attachment to it. Some may think that any display of that flag can only be intended to convey racism. Those who believe that are quite simply wrong.

I have known many folks, myself included, who have used the Confederate flag as a symbol of pride of place, pride in being Southern, without having any racist intent (or any racist beliefs, for that matter). Even so, I recognize that though my intent may not be racist, display of the Confederate flag may be perceived as racist. I also recognize that certain hate groups have used the flag expressly to convey racism. For that reason, I gave up the flag long ago.

It seems to me that folks have grown more sensitive about the flag in recent years. (And maybe that’s a product of continued use of the flag by hate groups.) When I was a kid in the 70’s, the flag was flown all over the South, as an emblem of southern pride. It appeared on license plates, and in window decals. “Dixie” was routinely played at high school football games. Hell, Lynyrd Skynyrd used to have a huge Confederate banner as the backdrop for their stage shows. These gestures were not intended to convey racism, but simply pride in being “Southern”. No one voiced any objection at the time, and I think that the benign intent was understood. Not any more.