What religion were Palestinians before Islam?

[paxromana]

I was just wondering what religion, if any, did the Palestinians hold before Islam came about - and what other Islamic groups believed in before Islam? Clumsy wording, I know, but I'm not sure how else to phrase the question.

[dhkendall]

Start with this Wikipedia article, that deals with Arabia pre-Islam.

[Polycarp]

The majority of inhabitants of Palestine between ca. 100 AD and the Persian conquest (a bit before the Arab conquest) seem to have been Christian. Some Jews (meaning adherents to Judaism) were always present, but were already a minority after the Jewish Wars. There were no doubt surviving adherents to Greco-Roman and Ba'alist beliefs, though I don't think there's much evidence for them (other than Elagabalus in what's now Syria).

[paxromana]

Originally Posted by dhkendall

Start with this Wikipedia article, that deals with Arabia pre-Islam.

well, it says not much at all really.

[Captain Amazing]

What Polycarp said. The Levant and North Africa was all part of the Byzantine Empire and primarily Christian, before Muslim armies took it over, and there's still a sizable Christian minority in Lebanon and Egypt, and a small Christian minority in Syria and the Palestinian territories.

Here's a fun little map looking at the spread of the major religions over time:

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html

[Keeve]

Originally Posted by paxromana

I was just wondering what religion, if any, did the Palestinians hold before Islam came about

Your question presumes that there were Palestinians around that far back. There certainly were Arabs (as the already-posted Wiki link shows), but Palestinians are a much more recent development.

Originally Posted by paxromana

Clumsy wording, I know, but I'm not sure how else to phrase the question.

I sympathize, really. Please, read the links we've offered, and think about it for a while, and I hope you'll be able to word it better.

[Polycarp]

Keeve, by that definition there were no Palestinians until 1948. I was using it to mean "native inhabitant of the area known to the ancients as Palestina and roughly equal to the British mandate of Palestine 1922-48", without getting into the question of the 'proper' term for the geographical area between the Transjordan and Egypt.

[Captain Midnight]

Many of the tribes had their own beliefs, mostly polytheistic. They had a loose belief system somewhat similar to many ancient peoples, in that there was a god who did a particular thing, like the God of Rain, the Sun God, Gods for Animals etc. Spirits were also a common theme. Ancient tribal religions were very similiar to each other. The people lacked science, but wanted to understand nature and their surroundings. These gods were a way for these ancient people to try to comprehend what in the hell that huge fireball in the sky was, or that white rock in the evening that comes and goes and changes shapes during the seasons. One of the gods that was worshipped was the Moon God, from where the idea of Allah came from. Before Islam, there was an Allah, who was probably the predominate diety, or the local diety of Muhammad's tribe.

Some of the semetic peoples were Christians and Jews. Christianity has been around for 500 years and was undoubtably a successful faith. Muhammad undountably studied their religion and came up with his own, using the same characters as in the Christian texts while changing the stories around a little bit (Ishmael was the chosen son of Abraham for instance).


Muhammad (or Mohammad, "The Big Mo") created the Islamic religion and used it through conquest to unite the desert peoples under his religion. In Medieval times especially, religion was not only a belief, but also as power to unify the people under a King or government. Having everyone tell you that this is the true faith and cutting off those who are not members of said faith keeps everyone basically in line.

Same with Catholicism In Europe. The Pope was the King of Kings, over governments and rulers for about 1,000 years until Luther, King Henry 8th, and the Protestant reformation loosed Rome's grip somewhat. But the power of the Catholic church has lingered into the 20th Century (Fascism especially) and the 21st Century.

Why is there no Pope in Islam? Some Head Cleric Ayatollah dude who lives in Mecca who runs the whole show? Like most religions, when Muhammad died (or was taken up in a whirlwind to the Heavens) there was dispute who was going to be the next Imam. Some wanted Muhammad's son. Others wanted a trusted leiutenant. The religion split off into different sects, which we see today.

[ramel]

I thought that most of the middle east was Zoroastrian before Islam

[Polycarp]

Originally Posted by Captain Midnight

Many of the tribes had their own beliefs, mostly polytheistic. They had a loose belief system somewhat similar to many ancient peoples, in that there was a god who did a particular thing, like the God of Rain, the Sun God, Gods for Animals etc. Spirits were also a common theme. Ancient tribal religions were very similiar to each other. The people lacked science, but wanted to understand nature and their surroundings. These gods were a way for these ancient people to try to comprehend what in the hell that huge fireball in the sky was, or that white rock in the evening that comes and goes and changes shapes during the seasons. One of the gods that was worshipped was the Moon God, from where the idea of Allah came from. Before Islam, there was an Allah, who was probably the predominate diety, or the local diety of Muhammad's tribe.

Some of the semetic peoples were Christians and Jews. Christianity has been around for 500 years and was undoubtably a successful faith. Muhammad undountably studied their religion and came up with his own, using the same characters as in the Christian texts while changing the stories around a little bit (Ishmael was the chosen son of Abraham for instance).


Muhammad (or Mohammad, "The Big Mo") created the Islamic religion and used it through conquest to unite the desert peoples under his religion. In Medieval times especially, religion was not only a belief, but also as power to unify the people under a King or government. Having everyone tell you that this is the true faith and cutting off those who are not members of said faith keeps everyone basically in line.

Same with Catholicism In Europe. The Pope was the King of Kings, over governments and rulers for about 1,000 years until Luther, King Henry 8th, and the Protestant reformation loosed Rome's grip somewhat. But the power of the Catholic church has lingered into the 20th Century (Fascism especially) and the 21st Century.

Why is there no Pope in Islam? Some Head Cleric Ayatollah dude who lives in Mecca who runs the whole show? Like most religions, when Muhammad died (or was taken up in a whirlwind to the Heavens) there was dispute who was going to be the next Imam. Some wanted Muhammad's son. Others wanted a trusted leiutenant. The religion split off into different sects, which we see today.

You got any cites for any of this?

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by ramel

I thought that most of the middle east was Zoroastrian before Islam

Persia, and the lands controlled by the Persians, was Zoroastrian before Islam. What's now Turkey, what's now Lebanon, what's now western Syria, what's now Israel, what's now Jordan, what's now Egypt, what's now Libya, etc, was all Roman/Byzantine and Christian.

The traditional border between the Roman and the Parthian/Persian empires was the Euphrates River. Every once in a while, one of the empires would invade the other, and grab a bunch of territory on the other side of the river, but they usually couldn't hold onto it long.

[Babale]

You could mean the Philistines, who were some sort of nation/tribe that were around at the same time as the Kingdoms of Israel. They were Polytheistic, and pretty much the worst enemy of the Israelites.

In fact, the reason Palestine is named Palestine is that when the Romans conquered Israel, they renamed it Palestine after the Philistines, just to piss of the Israelis.

The Palestinians themselves are just normal members of the Arab nationality/race/whatever you want to describe it as. Even Arabs living in the British Mandate of Palestine were not known as Palestinians. In fact, most modern "Palestinians" would have identified more with their own village than with any greater union until 1948.

[smiling bandit]

Of course, there's an open question of just how closely the people living in what is known as palestine today might eb related to the ancient Phillistines. Oh, obviously there's some relationship - the MidEast is too open for mvoement. But who knows what kind of quiet migrations occurred over the years.

[Shmendrik]

Originally Posted by Babale

You could mean the Philistines, who were some sort of nation/tribe that were around at the same time as the Kingdoms of Israel. They were Polytheistic, and pretty much the worst enemy of the Israelites.

In fact, the reason Palestine is named Palestine is that when the Romans conquered Israel, they renamed it Palestine after the Philistines, just to piss of the Israelis.

The Palestinians themselves are just normal members of the Arab nationality/race/whatever you want to describe it as. Even Arabs living in the British Mandate of Palestine were not known as Palestinians. In fact, most modern "Palestinians" would have identified more with their own village than with any greater union until 1948.

Also, Jewish residents of the area were commonly called Palestinians before 1948.

[septimus]

(A map posted upthread that doesn't even mention Zoroastrianism seems rather silly. "Paradise", BTW, started as a Zoroastrian word.)

Originally Posted by ramel

I thought that most of the middle east was Zoroastrian before Islam

Zoroastrianism was immensely important even outside the Persian domains, influencing Judaism, some Christian sects (including the Cathars), and perhaps Hellenism; however I don't think many Arabs practiced Zoroastrianism directly. Instead their roots were in ancient Semitic religions and Judaism itself. (Many early Islamic scholars had been Jewish scholars, and Muhammed himself was often compared to Moses.) This is not to say Arabs were Jews (!), but rather that their religions had common roots.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by septimus

(A map posted upthread that doesn't even mention Zoroastrianism seems rather silly. "Paradise", BTW, started as a Zoroastrian word.)

It's not currently a major word religion. And the question was what religion the people in Palestine were, and the people in Palestine weren't generally Arabs, except for, depending on how you define Palestine, the Ghassanids and maybe the Tanukhids, and they were Christian.

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by septimus

This is not to say Arabs were Jews (!), but rather that their religions had common roots.

Actually, as contradictory as that sounds today, there were a fair number of Jewish Arab tribes pre-Islam. A couple of the Himyarite kings of Yemen also converted to Judaism.

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

, and the people in Palestine weren't generally Arabs, except for, depending on how you define Palestine, the Ghassanids and maybe the Tanukhids, and they were Christian.

Actually probably a majority were by the time of the Muslim eruption. Arabs had been filtering into Syria from at least the 4th century and had become a predominant part of the population in 'interior Syria', particularly in the south ( the three Palestinas ) and the east ( 'Arabia' ). Hence a great deal of the interest for the early Muslims in the region - local rivalries and inter-tribal clashes drew them north ( and perhaps some ethnic evangelistic zeal ). It appears south of the Yarmuk, much of the local defenses were in the hands of local Arab tribes ( mostly Christian as you note ) in the last decades of Byzantine rule.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

Actually probably a majority were by the time of the Muslim eruption. Arabs had been filtering into Syria from at least the 4th century and had become a predominant part of the population in 'interior Syria', particularly in the south ( the three Palestinas ) and the east ( 'Arabia' ). Hence a great deal of the interest for the early Muslims in the region - local rivalries and inter-tribal clashes drew them north ( and perhaps some ethnic evangelistic zeal ). It appears south of the Yarmuk, much of the local defenses were in the hands of local Arab tribes ( mostly Christian as you note ) in the last decades of Byzantine rule.

Right, but the Yarmuk is east of the Jordan. I was using the Jordan River as my eastern border of Palestine. East of that was Arabia Petraea, aka, the old kingdom of Nabatea, which was certainly Arab.

[code_grey]

I wish to note that the continual effort of some posters here to equate the "Palestinians" with "pre Islamic Arabs" is obviously misplaced. Peoples of Syria and Palestine started calling themselves "Arabs" long after the Muslim conquest. Before that time, they would not have given the desert nomads of contemporary Arabian Peninsula the time of day. Neither did they have anything to do with the Arab tribal religions centered around Mecca.

Under the Byzantines the religions practiced in Palestine would include Judaism, Samaritan religion (there used to be a whole lot more Samaritans in the past then there are now) and Christianity. While there used to be some Greco-Roman pagans there under the Romans, the Byzantine policy was not tolerant of paganism.

[Keeve]

Originally Posted by Polycarp

Keeve, by that definition there were no Palestinians until 1948. I was using it to mean ...

Yes, you're right. My point was that I was hoping to find out how the OP was using that word.

More importantly, I was hoping the OP would further his own understanding of the word, whether he posts again here or not.

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by code_grey

I wish to note that the continual effort of some posters here to equate the "Palestinians" with "pre Islamic Arabs" is obviously misplaced. Peoples of Syria and Palestine started calling themselves "Arabs" long after the Muslim conquest. Before that time, they would not have given the desert nomads of contemporary Arabian Peninsula the time of day.

Well, that's partially the point. Bedouin had begun filtering into Syria long before Islam, transforming marginal farmland into transhumance pasturage for herd animals. As they continued to migrate into the region some began settling in towns and became sedentarized. However many continued to live on the fringes of urban settlements, where they often functioned as late-model foederati of sorts, being provided money by the state to function as a protective militia. As early as the third century Fergus Millar in The Roman Near East, 31 B.C. - 337 A.D. ( 1993, Presidents and Fellows of Harvard College ) notes a Roman citizen of 'Septima Kanotha' ( a little north of Bostra on the road to Damascus ) self-identifying as an 'Arab' in his epitaph. Not so surprising as the province he lived in was Arabia Petraea .

Now as it happens the area had undergone some Hellenization early on after its incorporation and said Arab cited above may or may not have spoken Arabic or a Nabataean proto-Arabic. But to quite Albert Hourani's A History of the Arab Peoples ( 1991, Warner Books ):

The power and influence of the empires touched parts of the Arabian peninsula, and for many centuries Arab pastoral nomads from the north and centre of the peninsula had been moving into the countryside of the area now often called the Fertile Crescent: the interior of Syria, the land lying west of the Euphrates in lower Iraq, and the region between the Euphrates and Tigris in upper Iraq ( the Jazira ) were largely Arab in population.

The coastal and northern Syrian population would have been predominantly Aramaic and Greek speakers, but the southern and eastern fringes of the region were already Arab and largely Christian ( with connections snaking south into central Arabia, where there were Christian and Jewish converts ). While the pre-Islamic Arabian peninsula was largely pagan it was hardly exclusively so. Even in northern Syria Bedouin encampments could be found on the edges of towns, where they functioned as irregular defense against wilder Bedouin. In the 6th century sedentary Arabs in southern Palestine were also hired to guard against Bedouin raiding.

So, nope - some Arabs preceded Islam into parts of Syria, including the Palestine provinces.

ETA: By the way I am not trying to equate modern Palestinians with Roman-era Arabs. The actual truth of the matter is far more complex - the Palestinians of today would be descendants from a whole mix of people, some of whom may not have entered the region until much later. Such it is with many modern populations. I'm just saying that Arabic-speakers did precede Islam into the region.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

As early as the third century Fergus Millar in The Roman Near East, 31 B.C. - 337 A.D. ( 1993, Presidents and Fellows of Harvard College ) notes a Roman citizen of 'Septima Kanotha' ( a little north of Bostra on the road to Damascus ) self-identifying as an 'Arab' in his epitaph. Not so surprising as the province he lived in was Arabia Petraea .

The same was true of the Roman Emperor Phillip the Arab. Of course, both Shaba and Septima Kanotha were in Arabia Petraea for political reasons. Septimus Severus had split Syria in half and given half to Arabia Petraea because of the disloyalty of the governor of Syria and loyalty of the governor of Arabia.