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  #1  
Old 10-06-2010, 10:54 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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Fixing a Saturn sunroof and replacing the headliner. Thoughts? Opinion?

I'm not sure if MPSIMS if the proper place for this but it's not something that actually has a factual answer so here it is.

I have a 99 Saturn SL2. The sunroof stopped working a number of years ago and, unknown to me, it was stopped not totally closed. So during heavy rains water was overflowing the internal gutters. Because of this the headliner got wet and has been damaged. The cloth is starting to sag a little in the front by the windshield. Also, over the winter the passenger side visor had frozen to the liner. Not realizing this, I pulled it down and it ripped the cloth so that now there is a small strip of cloth hanging down.

I found a certified Saturn service center (difficult to do these days) for this issue as well as a couple of others. They're the ones who discovered that the roof isn't completely closed.

They gave me a couple of solutions. I can have them permanently caulk the sunroof so that it won't leak but can NEVER be repaired, or I can have the sunroof repaired, which would involve removing the headliner. Whether or not they actually fix the sunroof would depend on what they find when they remove the headliner. It could be a simple electrical issue, which would be relatively inexpensive to fix, or it could be a $1000 repair job. If it's the $1000 repair I'll just have them permanently seal it instead.

I've heard horror stories about how, once you remove or replace the headliner, it's never the same and won't stay up properly. So I'm leery of having them mess with it. On the other hand, it's already coming loose and since I'm putting money into some other repairs, and it only has 76,000 miles on it, I plan to keep it for at least a few more years. That means that I'll likely have to deal with the headliner at some point anyway. I prefer not to do ugly fixes like thumbtacks.

So, thoughts? Should I have them pull the headliner to check the sunroof, and should I have them replace it? The other issue, of course, is that they're still checking to see if they can even get a replacement headliner.
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  #2  
Old 10-06-2010, 11:46 AM
Duckster Duckster is offline
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Paneling. It won't sag. Just make sure you align it properly or the lines will drive you to crash.
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  #3  
Old 10-06-2010, 11:47 AM
Prelude to Fascination Prelude to Fascination is offline
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I had a 95 SL2, and in fact, just got rid of it a couple of months ago (we bought it brand new with about 10 miles on it, and when it was about to give out, it had around 132,000 miles). The difference between my experience and yours is we didn't have a sunroof, but the liner was coming down of its own volition several years ago.

At the time, I took it to my local Saturn dealer, and was told it would cost $300 or so to replace the liner; then I was later told they couldn't even get it. We finally began just ripping the liner out, because frankly, the car was just beaten up at that point. The seats were falling apart, and the muffler needed replacing. It still ran okay, but the liner was the least of my worries.

I finally sold it for $150 cash (the guy scrapped it), but considering we'd had it for 15 years and two full-time drivers, it was a great car. Just not worth replacing the liner IMO. Naturally, you may feel differently. But my guess is you probably can't get an authorized SC to replace it anyway.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:49 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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Duckster, What do you mean by "paneling"? Is there some sort of auto paneling?

Last edited by davidm; 10-06-2010 at 11:51 AM..
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  #5  
Old 10-06-2010, 11:53 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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Prelude,
I really hate the idea of just ripping it off and exposing the insides of the ceiling. The car is overall in pretty good shape.
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  #6  
Old 10-06-2010, 12:14 PM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is offline
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No idea how it is on your Saturn, but I once removed the headliner from a 2003 Grand Am. I put new material on with 3M 90 spray glue. I did this because I had a tear in the fabric. After I put it back up, I never had any problems with sagging or anything. If you can remove the headliner yourself, you'll see the sunroof motor. Maybe you can diagnose something or replace it while it's exposed.
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  #7  
Old 10-06-2010, 12:23 PM
Prelude to Fascination Prelude to Fascination is offline
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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Prelude,
I really hate the idea of just ripping it off and exposing the insides of the ceiling. The car is overall in pretty good shape.
I don't blame you, if the car is in otherwise good shape. No need to tear it down needlessly--my car, on the other hand....

As I remember though, we tried spray adhesive, and for us at least, it didn't work. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work for you of course. It'd certainly be worth a try, and if it doesn't work, you're not out that much money.
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  #8  
Old 10-06-2010, 12:28 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Barkis,
While it's possible that I could do that I have to say that I'm pretty nervous that I'll screw it up somehow and not be able to get it back together properly. It seems like I'd have to remove a lot of trim and various fixtures.

I imagine that some body shops will do something similar. I don't know if my service center's body shop would do something like that or not.

The whole point is to remove it only once to
  1. Checkout and possibly repair the sunroof.
  2. Repair the headliner
The odds of me being able to diagnose and repair the sunroof aren't very good.

In any case the sunroof has to be fixed or sealed NOW, before there's any more water damage, possibly to something more critical than the liner. It can't wait till I have the time to personally screw around with the liner.

The car is in the shop now and I have to take some action, possibly irreversible, NOW. I'm currently waiting to hear back on whether or not they can even replace the liner, so my decision may be made for me.
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2010, 12:33 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Originally Posted by Prelude to Fascination View Post
I don't blame you, if the car is in otherwise good shape. No need to tear it down needlessly--my car, on the other hand....

As I remember though, we tried spray adhesive, and for us at least, it didn't work. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work for you of course. It'd certainly be worth a try, and if it doesn't work, you're not out that much money.
How did you do that? Did you remove it from the car? Is there some other way to get the adhesive under the cloth?

I've also got the problem of the hanging strip. I can glue that up but it won't look very nice. I guess I'd just have to live with that.
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  #10  
Old 10-06-2010, 12:58 PM
Prelude to Fascination Prelude to Fascination is offline
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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
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Originally Posted by Prelude to Fascination View Post
I don't blame you, if the car is in otherwise good shape. No need to tear it down needlessly--my car, on the other hand....

As I remember though, we tried spray adhesive, and for us at least, it didn't work. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work for you of course. It'd certainly be worth a try, and if it doesn't work, you're not out that much money.
How did you do that? Did you remove it from the car? Is there some other way to get the adhesive under the cloth?

I've also got the problem of the hanging strip. I can glue that up but it won't look very nice. I guess I'd just have to live with that.
It sounds like your car's too nice for how we did it: ultimately we just ripped it and left the foam exposed. By that time, the car wasn't in very good shape (though it was drivable, and safe enough, which was more important to us than how the liner looked). So in the end, I'm not much help, although I do empathize with your situation.

Using the spray: we held the liner away from the rest of the roof, being careful not to tear it any more, and sprayed both the liner and foam (or whatever the directions on the can said....spray one side, spray both sides, I don't remember honestly). Then gently press the liner back up. I think it stayed for awhile, but then fell back down. There could be lots of reasons why it didn't work: the humidity or temperature when we tried to use the spray, or somehow didn't follow directions right. Maybe it was just plain shitty adhesive we used.

I can't imagine though there's no way to fix it....there are car customizers who do much more than that, although in your case, it may or may not be worth the money you'd put into it. For us, it just wasn't worth any more money than the cost of the spray adhesive. At any rate, I wish you luck.
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  #11  
Old 10-06-2010, 01:14 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Oh, I'm sure if money was no object I could have the thing working and looking like it's brand new, but I'm not sure that it's really worth it.

On the other hand, financially, I'm not really comfortable starting car payments right now and, as I've said, I've already put money into other needed repairs. The brakes HAD to be fixed, as did the ignition key cylinder if I want to continue to be able to start the car. So, financially I really need to be able to drive it for at least a few more years and the liner will likely continue to come loose.

I guess the decisions I have to make at this point are largely aesthetic rather than practical. The practical things HAVE to be done. The aesthetics are... well. aesthetic.

But, being a single guy, I'd rather not pickup a date in a car that has the ceiling exposed or cloth sagging onto her head.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2010, 01:39 PM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is offline
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What's the budget? I'm guessing the sunroof motor will need replaced. The part alone is probably $150 to $200 new, maybe $50 on ebay. Plus labor for that and to remove and repair headliner...I'm GUESSING you might actually approach the $1000 figure you stated in your OP. Then again, I could be way off.
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:10 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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IIRC, the cost if it was some simple electrical thing was $100 to $300. That didn't include repairing or replacing the headliner just taking it out and putting it back. The high end possibility he gave was $1000, which I assume was replacing some major part or even the whole sunroof.

I'd go with the low end repair of the roof and replacing the headliner if that part wasn't too ridiculous. If it would cost $1000 then I'd go with sealing it (which I think was maybe $100+) and replacing the headliner.

I don't even care much about having a working sunroof, I just figure if it's something simple then fixing it will add to the resale value.

I talked to the mechanic about 5 hours ago and he was going to look into what it would take to replace the headliner (or if it was even possible). I haven't heard back yet. I'm not sure what that means. Maybe they're waiting to hear from some junkyards or something.
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  #14  
Old 10-06-2010, 02:48 PM
Rocketeer Rocketeer is offline
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Headliners fall down because the foam on the back of the headliner material deteriorates with age. Gluing a headliner back up never works for long because the foam just crumbles some more and down she comes again.

When I had a falling headliner on my old Dodge Omni, I was able to remove the entire headliner backing piece (a huge piece of cardboard) and then had a local upholstery shop glue new material onto it. Cost me about $80 plus a couple afternoons' work.
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:57 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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The business about the foam crumbling is what I'd heard and what made me dubious about gluing.

I'm a little confused though. I keep hearing about foam and now you're mentioning cardboard. Does the upholstery shop glue new foam to the cardboard and then cloth to the foam?

How difficult is it to match the color?

I think what I might end up doing is telling the repair center to just seal the sunroof without removing the headliner. Then I can try and find a body shop that will remove and reupholster the liner.
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:44 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Well, problem solved, sort of.

Yesterday I had told them to go ahead and seal the sunroof. I called this morning and told him that I had had second thoughts and if they hadn't started sealing it yet could they wait and first check to see if they could replace the liner, and then check out the sunroof while they were doing that to see if it was easily repairable.

So I've been waiting all day to hear back from him. I assumed that since he hadn't called back they hadn't sealed it yet and were waiting to find out about the liner.

I just called him to see what was happening. He told me that when he checked with the body shop this morning they had already started working on it so it's been sealed. (I don't know why he didn't call and tell me that.)

So I'll worry about the headliner a little later. If I do take it out myself and notice a loose wire on the sunroof I'll be kinda pissed.
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  #17  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:08 PM
Projammer Projammer is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketeer View Post
Headliners fall down because the foam on the back of the headliner material deteriorates with age. Gluing a headliner back up never works for long because the foam just crumbles some more and down she comes again.
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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
The business about the foam crumbling is what I'd heard and what made me dubious about gluing.
This is exactly why glue won't work for very long.

About the only thing short of replacement that will work is saggy pins. Thumbtacks with oversized heads and curly-q pins so they don't just pull out. You can get them from Amazon or just about any chain auto parts store.
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  #18  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:33 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Originally Posted by Projammer View Post
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Originally Posted by Rocketeer View Post
Headliners fall down because the foam on the back of the headliner material deteriorates with age. Gluing a headliner back up never works for long because the foam just crumbles some more and down she comes again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
The business about the foam crumbling is what I'd heard and what made me dubious about gluing.
This is exactly why glue won't work for very long.

About the only thing short of replacement that will work is saggy pins. Thumbtacks with oversized heads and curly-q pins so they don't just pull out. You can get them from Amazon or just about any chain auto parts store.
This sounds like a solution for the sagging parts. Not sure what I'm going to do about the torn spot. Short of completely recovering the headliner that'll be ugly no matter what I do.
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  #19  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:55 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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I'm looking at some "fabric repair kits" on Amazon, like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-25247.../dp/B0007TQWKQ

or this:

http://www.amazon.com/Lifetime-Repai...=pd_sbs_auto_2

for example.

They're the stuff you've probably seen on TV where you mix up some goop to match the color as close as possible and then smooth it over the rip.

Anyone have any experience with this kind of thing?
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  #20  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:56 PM
Projammer Projammer is online now
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This sounds like a solution for the sagging parts. Not sure what I'm going to do about the torn spot. Short of completely recovering the headliner that'll be ugly no matter what I do.
Maybe a curved sewing needle and just pull the edges together.
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  #21  
Old 10-06-2010, 07:47 PM
Sticks and Scones Sticks and Scones is offline
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The person who destroyed the headliner in my 94 SW2 used the saggy pins and they seemed to work fairly well. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the rip. Save you money for the next time the ignition cylinder quits working, and the two times that the left front wheel bearing goes bad (not to mention the one time that the rest of them go bad), and the tie rods, and the resonator on the exhaust (don't forget the entire rear tailpipe, the muffler, and the strap and bracket!), and the front struts, and the rusted out right rear door latch, and the rusting wheel wells, and the serpentine belt tensioner that requires major surgery just to replace, etc, etc., etc... Headliners are small potatoes in my option. YMMV, obviously.
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  #22  
Old 10-07-2010, 06:49 AM
Sticks and Scones Sticks and Scones is offline
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As pathetic as this sounds, I was thinking about this while laying in bed last night and it's my guess that if they would have poked around in your sunroof that they would have likely found more damage than just a loose wire. Especially given that it had been open and leaking. I'm just wondering what else in the sunroof apparatus has also been damaged and is now rusty/shorted due to the water leak.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:50 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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Sticks and Scones,
You're probably right about the sunroof. I had actually decided not to fix it a number of years ago. I was just thinking that, if I was going to have the headliner replaced (which I now don't think I will) then I might as well have them at least glance at it and see if it was something simple.

As far as the rip, it's not simply a tear in the fabric. It's a strip of cloth, maybe an inch and a half wide and 2 or 3 inches long that is hanging down. It could easily continue to tear further over time, especially with people reaching up and playing with the visor. At a minimum I need to glue it securely back in place somehow.
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  #24  
Old 10-07-2010, 10:11 AM
Rocketeer Rocketeer is offline
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I'm a little confused though. I keep hearing about foam and now you're mentioning cardboard. Does the upholstery shop glue new foam to the cardboard and then cloth to the foam?
The cloth comes with foam already attached. So you have the (cardboard, on my Omni) headliner shell, then a layer of contact cement, then the foam-backed cloth.

The upholstery shop stripped off my deteriorating foam-backed cloth, then sprayed the shell with contact cement and glued on new foam-backed cloth. He was able to find cloth in a color that matched fairly well--not perfect, but certainly good enough.
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:46 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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I'm a little confused though. I keep hearing about foam and now you're mentioning cardboard. Does the upholstery shop glue new foam to the cardboard and then cloth to the foam?
The cloth comes with foam already attached. So you have the (cardboard, on my Omni) headliner shell, then a layer of contact cement, then the foam-backed cloth.

The upholstery shop stripped off my deteriorating foam-backed cloth, then sprayed the shell with contact cement and glued on new foam-backed cloth. He was able to find cloth in a color that matched fairly well--not perfect, but certainly good enough.
That sounds like an option, but I am nervous about taking apart the interior of the car to that extent. It's a relatively small car and I'm concerned that, even if I manage to get the trim and fixtures off, I won't be able to get the headliner out. What happens if I do (or don't) get it out but then can't maneuver it and all of the trim and fixtures back into place?

I think that I'll just repair it in place as best as I can. I guess I could pay a body shop to do it but I'm honestly not sure that the car is worth it.

I'm not sure if it has much trade in value at this point anyway, considering that the sunroof was leaking (damaging god knows what else) and is now permanently sealed.

The engine and transmission are good, the traction control is good (as far as I know), the front brakes are now like new as is the ABS system, and the cruise control works. Maybe I should just keep going and drive it into the ground.
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:57 AM
Rocketeer Rocketeer is offline
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...The engine and transmission are good, the traction control is good (as far as I know), the front brakes are now like new as is the ABS system, and the cruise control works. Maybe I should just keep going and drive it into the ground.
Good idea. The car sounds like it's fine, and that's always the cheapest form of car ownership: Buy a car, drive it forever.
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Old 10-07-2010, 11:10 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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The biggest problem is going to be getting service. Certified Saturn repair centers have been closing down (this was happening even when Saturns were still being manufactured) and I've had to take it further and further from home for repairs.

Not everything requires a Certified shop, of course. I had the brake work done at Pep Boys, but they wouldn't (claimed they couldn't) touch the ignition key cylinder problem or the sunroof leak.

Getting needed repairs, even finding parts, will get more and more difficult.

I imagine GM will have to keep some shops open due to the newer cars that are still under warranty, but as those warranties run out they'll have less and less reason to keep them open.
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:29 PM
Sticks and Scones Sticks and Scones is offline
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Not everything requires a Certified shop, of course. I had the brake work done at Pep Boys, but they wouldn't (claimed they couldn't) touch the ignition key cylinder problem or the sunroof leak.

Getting needed repairs, even finding parts, will get more and more difficult.

I imagine GM will have to keep some shops open due to the newer cars that are still under warranty, but as those warranties run out they'll have less and less reason to keep them open.
I find this surprising. Everything that I've mentioned above has happened to my car, and most of it in the past 1 1/2 years. And guess how much of it has been fixed at a Certified Saturn Repair Shop? Yep, none of it. Heck, I used to work at a Saturn Dealership which, incidentally, is still open as Certified Repair Shop and rebranded as a GMC dealer now but I can't afford their labor rate which was about $80 an hour when I left there 5 years ago.

Have you tried reputable Mom and Pop places? I've got two go-to places for work. One is a guy that charged me $20 to replace the ignition cylinder that I purchased on my own and the other is one of those service centers with a gas station attached. They do all of my major repairs and are much less expensive than a dealer oriented place.
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:39 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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I figured that Pep Boys wouldn't turn away work if they could do it, but who knows?

I had been getting regular maintenance and repairs at a "mom and pop" shop, a friend of a family member, but the last time I went I had to go back because he screwed up the brakes. They didn't stop working but they made an odd sound. Turns out he left something off or unhooked or something, I don't really recall. He fixed it free of charge but, needless to say, I'm not taking it back to him.

Since then I've been using Pep Boys. They're pretty good about most things. They didn't even charge me to tow me in last week when the dashboard brake light came on because I belong to their so-called "rewards" program.

I guess I'll deal with things as the come along and start saving up for something newer a few years down the road.
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:52 PM
Sticks and Scones Sticks and Scones is offline
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I figured that Pep Boys wouldn't turn away work if they could do it, but who knows?
I just realized it's probably because of the rekeying issue so you don't end up with one key for the door locks and one for the ignition.
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  #31  
Old 10-08-2010, 06:22 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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I figured that Pep Boys wouldn't turn away work if they could do it, but who knows?
I just realized it's probably because of the rekeying issue so you don't end up with one key for the door locks and one for the ignition.
I never physically use the key for the door locks anyway, but obviously it needs to be an option if the remote doesn't work for some reason.

That doesn't explain the sunroof. The guy at Pep Boys told me that it probably could be permanently caulked but that I needed a Saturn shop to do that. I'm not sure why.

ETA: Actually, now that I think about it I think I'm remembering it wrong. He said that I needed a GM dealership, but I figured if I was going to pay for service at a dealership I should take it specifically to a certified Saturn shop.

Last edited by davidm; 10-08-2010 at 06:25 PM..
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  #32  
Old 10-08-2010, 11:20 PM
Hockey Monkey Hockey Monkey is online now
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The biggest problem is going to be getting service. Certified Saturn repair centers have been closing down (this was happening even when Saturns were still being manufactured) and I've had to take it further and further from home for repairs.

Not everything requires a Certified shop, of course. I had the brake work done at Pep Boys, but they wouldn't (claimed they couldn't) touch the ignition key cylinder problem or the sunroof leak.

Getting needed repairs, even finding parts, will get more and more difficult.

I imagine GM will have to keep some shops open due to the newer cars that are still under warranty, but as those warranties run out they'll have less and less reason to keep them open.
Many of GM's other dealerships are Authorized Saturn Service Centers now to deal with any warranty issues that may come up. Parts are going to be harder to find for the older model Saturns now, but I've had very little trouble getting what I need from salvage yards with a phone call or two.

I would no longer fret about taking your car to a Saturn Certified center now since you don't have any warranty left. As of October 16, any dealers still operating under the Saturn brand will have to take the signs off the buildings and change their name. The Saturn stores that I used to work for are now independent used car dealerships.
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  #33  
Old 10-11-2010, 09:13 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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Got the car back on Saturday. It's running beautifully, but damn the ceiling looks like shit. I almost think it looks worse than before. The rest of the interior for the most part looks almost brand new but the headliner is stained and sagging and ripped in spots, and part of it in the back has come loose. It's nothing that obstructs my view (yet) but I can't leave it like that. I think the saggy pins that Projammer suggested would at least keep it in place but damn I hate the way it looks. This is the last car I buy with a friggin sunroof.
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  #34  
Old 10-19-2010, 03:48 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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So I got up this morning and it had rained all night. Good thing I got that leaked fixed!

Got in the car... it's still leaking.

I'm taking it back to the shop tonight.
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  #35  
Old 10-19-2010, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Projammer View Post
About the only thing short of replacement that will work is saggy pins. Thumbtacks with oversized heads and curly-q pins so they don't just pull out. You can get them from Amazon or just about any chain auto parts store.
When the headliner in my truck started to sag, I went to the local auto parts store and the guy recommended "twist pins". It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks like they are essentially the same thing as what you are calling saggy pins.

Unfortunately, they didn't sell them at the auto parts store. The guy at the auto parts store said they sold them at walmart, but when I checked there they didn't sell them any more. I ended up finding them at a local sewing/craft store. I got a whole package of them for something like 2 or 3 bucks, and I didn't have to deal with online shipping charges.

So, if your local auto parts store doesn't have them, a local sewing or craft shop probably will.

For a truck like mine that's an old beater with 175k+ miles, twist pins are the way to go. For a nicer car with only 76,000 miles on it, I'd pay the extra money and get the liner replaced.

Of course you have to stop the stupid sunroof from leaking first though.
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  #36  
Old 10-19-2010, 04:25 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Yea, I'm really leaning towards getting the headliner recovered, but only after I'm certain that it's no longer leaking.
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  #37  
Old 10-20-2010, 12:18 AM
kjbrasda kjbrasda is offline
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I know Hancock Fabrics sells headliner foam, and I think anyplace that sells upholstry fabric might sell it too, if you decide to try replace it.
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  #38  
Old 10-20-2010, 06:14 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrasda View Post
I know Hancock Fabrics sells headliner foam, and I think anyplace that sells upholstry fabric might sell it too, if you decide to try replace it.
I'm pretty sure that I could get the fabric. What I'm not so sure about is my ability to remove the headliner, recover it, and then put it back correctly.

If I do it I'll probably try to find a good body shop that does headliners. Of course, I'll have to wait until it dries out completely first, because they'll probably just recover the existing headliner. I don't know if it's even possible to obtain a new headliner that will fit a Saturn with the exact features I have.
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  #39  
Old 11-05-2010, 09:38 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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So, it's raining and the damned sunroof is leaking again. Now they're telling me that if the first two attempts didn't fix it then my only alternative is to have the sunroof assembly replaced. The ballpark cost of that is around $1200.

On top of that, over the last few days I've started hearing a strange mechanical noise underneath the car and today I noticed what smells like hot rubber. I'm hoping that if it's anything serious it's the ABS since they just did that work so it's their cost if they did it wrong.

If I do get it fixed they will have to remove the headliner to do so, so I can get it recovered while it's off.

I'm wondering now if the car is worth it. I just put a lot of money into it so I hate to get rid of the thing. On the other hand I don't want to keep throwing good money after bad.

Finally, after a series of bad job experiences, I have a good position and I've started to build up some reserves. Now it looks like one way or another I'll be blowing them on transportation.
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