What the fuck did I just watch? (Last Airbender movie)

[Omi no Kami]

Omi: Oh boy, it's the last airbender movie! I know it's supposed to suck, but the show was awesome so this'll be mildly entertaining at least.
*2 minutes pass*
Omi: Wow, they really got white people to play the Inuit characters? That seems like kind of a silly decision.
*1 minute passes*
Omi: Man, this dialog really isn't that hot, and I kind of wish Aang's actor would actually act a bit, but it's a kid's movie, it might still be entertaining.
*several minutes pass*
Omi: Wtf, everyone is white except for the bad guys who are all Indian? What on earth kind of statement is that?
*7 minutes of gasped, over-emoted dialog substituted for action and things actually happening later*
Omi: What. The. Fuck.

[Jman]

I got dragged to that by a couple friends, and 5 minutes in, my first thought was.

"Wow, for living in the arctic, they sure sound like American west coast teenagers...did they move there recently?" "Oh...they're supposed to be NATIVE?" WTF?

Worst dialog ever. Terrible acting. Mediocre special effects and plot holes so wide you could drive a dump truck through them.

[Apollyon]

Got dragged to it by son for a birthday treat -- hard to say no. (I tried but failed to get to ask for Despicable Me instead).

Visuals were OK... but the dialog was reminiscent of Lucas at his most leaden.

I don't get the "Inuit" issue really though. Katara and Sokka are members of the "Southern Water Tribe", who live in the Antarctica analogue of a fantasy world... not the Arctic of the real world, so why would we expect them to be Inuit?

And while the animated characters are tanned, the voices are provided by US actors from LA and Boston.

There are a lot of things wrong with the Last Air Bender movie... but criticism about the apparent ethnicity of the Water tribe people seems small potatoes, IMHO.

[Ranchoth]

Originally Posted by Apollyon

I don't get the "Inuit" issue really though. Katara and Sokka are members of the "Southern Water Tribe", who live in the Antarctica analogue of a fantasy world... not the Arctic of the real world, so why would we expect them to be Inuit?

You're not a big "Earthsea" fan, either, I'm guessing?

[furryman]

This could have been a good movie if they'd gotten better actors. What the heck? They spent several million dollars on FX and they couldn't spend a little extra money on actors?

[fusoya]

The movie was based off of a show called AVATAR, and they changed the name because there was already an Avatar movie, even though that didn't stop two "Nine" movies from getting released the same year.

I know better to see any of Night's movies ever. There's a reason that all of the posters still refer to him as "the guy who made The 6th Sense"

[SciFiSam]

My daughter's a huge Avatar fan and watched just enough of this to get really angry. She rants about it at least twice a week. One of the things she dislikes is that they couldn't even pronounce the names correctly.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Omi no Kami

Omi: Wtf, everyone is white except for the bad guys who are all Indian? What on earth kind of statement is that?

Kind of reminds me of The Substitute and its sequels, in which Tom Berenger and Treat Williams beat the shit out of various minorities (who mostly happen to be criminals).

Well, until the fourth one, where Treat beats up white supremacists instead.

[Mahaloth]

This is on DVD now or something? I thought it was gone from theaters almost immediately.

[jjimm]

The best thing about this movie is it engendered this extremely childish review.

I suspect only Brits will find it funny, mind you. To comprehend it, you need to know that

SPOILER:

"Bender" is childish slang for "gay man". "Viz" is a comic that specialises in puerile humor, in particular a character called "Finbarr Saunders and his double entendres".

[friedo]

Originally Posted by fusoya

The movie was based off of a show called AVATAR, and they changed the name because there was already an Avatar movie, even though that didn't stop two "Nine" movies from getting released the same year.

Well, one of those was called 9 and the other was called Nine. And while 9 was awesome, Nine was an incoherent, boring mess.

Hmmmmm.

[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by Ranchoth

You're not a big "Earthsea" fan, either, I'm guessing?

I'm not at all really sure what you mean. No, not a huge Earthsea fan, although I've read the books... and seen some adaptions... Looking up info about the world I can see the notes that most of the peoples are darkish skinned -- except for the Kargs -- possibly "red-brown"... a colouring that would put me somewhat in mind of Polynesians (also given the island / boating culture).

I sure don't mind a good natured "dig" (since that's what it appears to be), but I'm still struggling to understand why fantasy Antarctic-ans should look Inuit -- and while the animated characters of Katara and Sokka aren't pale skinned, they sure don't look very Inuit, Inupiat, or Yup'ik either.

Originally Posted by fusoya

The movie was based off of a show called AVATAR, and they changed the name...

The animated show's name is "Avatar: The Last Airbender". It did seem a bit unnecessary to drop the "Avatar" for the film, but "The Last Airbender" wasn't just made up for the movie either.

[sisu]

yep I was saved from this traincrash, my 11yo son told me that it would be a pile of crap according to his mates who had seen it. Shame because he loved Avatar the TV show.

[Peremensoe]

If I were making the movie, I think my starting point would have been that the four nations should all look modestly distinctive, ethnically and in dress and so forth, but not so much that members of one can't realistically disguise themselves as members of another. Beyond that, I'm not clear that it makes much difference which skin colors and so forth signify which nation.

[Ranchoth]

Originally Posted by Apollyon

I'm not at all really sure what you mean. No, not a huge Earthsea fan, although I've read the books... and seen some adaptions... Looking up info about the world I can see the notes that most of the peoples are darkish skinned -- except for the Kargs -- possibly "red-brown"... a colouring that would put me somewhat in mind of Polynesians (also given the island / boating culture)..

My dig simply being that one of the Earthsea movies (the Scifi channel one) somewhat infamously used a mostly white cast, when the characters specifically weren't—the author (and fans, as I recall) really weren't pleased.

And, even for their fictional nature, the Water Tribe culture was based on that of the Inuit, and their physical appearance—even seen through the filter of an animation design, and with fantastic touches—was clearly closer to Inuit or Native American than European.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Ranchoth

And, even for their fictional nature, the Water Tribe culture was based on that of the Inuit, and their physical appearance—even seen through the filter of an animation design, and with fantastic touches—was clearly closer to Inuit or Native American than European.

Are there a lot of blue-eyed Inuit out there?

[kasuo]

When this comes out on DVD, is there a drinking game you recommend I try out while watching the movie?

So far all the reviews I've read/heard about refer to:
1) mispronunciations of names
2) really bad acting
3) screwing with the entire universe setting

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I haven't seen it, haven't seen the cartoon and no nothing about it other than the title, the trailer and that it got abysmal reviews, but I have to say that the word "airbender" to me sounds like a slang word for a fart. Like, "whoah, dude, that was a real airbender, open a window. Jesus Christ."

[Peremensoe]

Originally Posted by Ranchoth

My dig simply being that one of the Earthsea movies (the Scifi channel one) somewhat infamously used a mostly white cast, when the characters specifically weren't—the author (and fans, as I recall) really weren't pleased.

But skin color is a motif in Ursula Le Guin; there's reasons for adhering to the identities as she's written them. What about the Last Airbender story needs the Water Tribe to "be" any particular Earthly ethnicity?

[SciFiSam]

I'd say that changing the races isn't so much a problem as making everyone white - except the bad guys.

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I haven't seen it, haven't seen the cartoon and no nothing about it other than the title, the trailer and that it got abysmal reviews, but I have to say that the word "airbender" to me sounds like a slang word for a fart. Like, "whoah, dude, that was a real airbender, open a window. Jesus Christ."

The whole series made snarkle, since 'bender' is British slang for gay person, and my daughter was always asking me 'what kind of bender would you be?'

[Ranchoth]

Originally Posted by Miller

Are there a lot of blue-eyed Inuit out there?

Gee I dunno, are there a lot of thousand year old white men with pointy ears out there? Ever see a white kid who's hair was a black-bordred featureless blob colored canary yellow? Or an Egyptian guy with bright orange skin, and his torso permanently cranked 90° away from his direction of travel when he walked?

Originally Posted by spark240

But skin color is a motif in Ursula Le Guin; there's reasons for adhering to the identities as she's written them. What about the Last Airbender story needs the Water Tribe to "be" any particular Earthly ethnicity?

Okay, fine, say we throw that out. Let's say, no matter what the Earthly culture the setting is based on, if the story doesn't specifically involve racial politics, we just forget about the actors' race.

Now, let's do Lord of the Rings. We cast all the Rohirrim with black actors—Denethor is played by Henry Cele. Doesn't really matter. Not that important to the setting, or what the author had in mind, right?

Okay, forget fantasy, or what it's based on—let's try something else. A movie about the early Aztecs, and the founding of Tenochtitlan. We cast the Jonas Brothers as the leads, with Rutger Hauer as Huitzlipochtli. Eh?

Look, whatever other issues we're getting into, completely and intentionally disregarding an a big element of the setting itself—what the people are supposed to look like, even implicitly—isn't being artistically respectful to the work; and claiming that how the characters have appeared before through the limitations of a different medium, or that because they have elements of outright fantasy associated with them grants one carte blanche in reinterpreting them is being disingenuous.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Ranchoth

Gee I dunno, are there a lot of thousand year old white men with pointy ears out there? Ever see a white kid who's hair was a black-bordred featureless blob colored canary yellow? Or an Egyptian guy with bright orange skin, and his torso permanently cranked 90° away from his direction of travel when he walked?

I'm not entirely certain what point you think you're making here. Most of this sounds like an argument for my position, not against it. The Egyptian thing, for example, is almost a parallel to what we're talking about, except that I don't think anyone's ever made a movie directly from a set of hieroglyphics. If they did, however, I'd expect you to be livid if they didn't paint the actors bright orange as not being artistically respectful to the original work.

Okay, fine, say we throw that out. Let's say, no matter what the Earthly culture the setting is based on, if the story doesn't specifically involve racial politics, we just forget about the actors' race.

Now, let's do Lord of the Rings. We cast all the Rohirrim with black actors—Denethor is played by Henry Cele. Doesn't really matter. Not that important to the setting, or what the author had in mind, right?

Okay, forget fantasy, or what it's based on—let's try something else. A movie about the early Aztecs, and the founding of Tenochtitlan. We cast the Jonas Brothers as the leads, with Rutger Hauer as Huitzlipochtli. Eh?

You're ignoring the argument, here, though. The question is, if there's no reason for the character's look to be tied to a real-world culture, does it matter what race the actors are? To counter this, you've taken an example of a work where there is a specific reason for the race of the character to be tied to a real-world culture (Middle Earth is specifically intended to be pre-historic Europe), and an actual, real-world culture.

Look, whatever other issues we're getting into, completely and intentionally disregarding an a big element of the setting itself—what the people are supposed to look like, even implicitly—isn't being artistically respectful to the work; and claiming that how the characters have appeared before through the limitations of a different medium, or that because they have elements of outright fantasy associated with them grants one carte blanche in reinterpreting them is being disingenuous.

I think the characters in the cartoon were deliberately not supposed to look like any real-world race. Which is going to cause some issues when you try to cast real people as these characters. The fact that they cast a couple of actors who were a few shades lighter than the characters isn't that big a deal.

Now, casting all the heroes as white people, and all the villains as dark skinned people is more of a concern. Ironically, from what I understand, this was largely done in reaction to the complaining about the races of the characters in the first place. Still, not the best solution to what really was never a problem in the first place.

[Ranchoth]

[quote=Miller;13025545]

Originally Posted by Ranchoth

The Egyptian thing, for example, is almost a parallel to what we're talking about, except that I don't think anyone's ever made a movie directly from a set of hieroglyphics. If they did, however, I'd expect you to be livid if they didn't paint the actors bright orange as not being artistically respectful to the original work.

Your point seemed to be that, since Egyptians aren't really bright orange in real life, if you're making a movie about Ancient Egypt (adapted from said hieroglyphs, for this argument—I'd guess as a workaround for a new WGA strike ), there's no reason to cast Egyptian or middle-eastern actors, because the original art was clearly not intended to represent a real people's ethnicity, because of how it was stylized.

You're ignoring the argument, here, though. The question is, if there's no reason for the character's look to be tied to a real-world culture, does it matter what race the actors are? To counter this, you've taken an example of a work where there is a specific reason for the race of the character to be tied to a real-world culture (Middle Earth is specifically intended to be pre-historic Europe), and an actual, real-world culture.

My point is that the Avatar cultures were specifically based on real-world cultures. The "Air Nomads" (airbenders) were Tibetan, "Water Tribe" were a blend of Inuit and Native American, the "Earth Kingdom" was China and east asia—a couple of minor characters even show up with Korean surnames and traditional clothing, in one episode. The magic "bending" forms are based on real world schools of martial arts. All the writing in the show is in actual traditional Chinese. Is the argument against that "well, since it's not literally supposed to be Earth, there's no reason to try to be consistent with the setting?"

I think the characters in the cartoon were deliberately not supposed to look like any real-world race. Which is going to cause some issues when you try to cast real people as these characters.

I think it's pretty clear that this isn't the case—there are plenty of characters that do look plainly asian, or inuit, or whathaveyou. Characters that don't so much can be explained by the art style of the series—it's influenced by anime, with the big ol' expressive eyeballs? Like Bambi? For various reasons, the depictions of race in anime tends to be more ambiguous than in western animation—look, here's Miyamoto Musashi. And another one.—that doesn't mean the races are supposed to be ambiguous, in the story. No more than Charlie Brown is supposed to be a hydrocephalus victim.

You mention the eye color, specifically, as a reason why characters from the show couldn't be based on a "real" race. Yes, some characters have blue eyes. And they're from a people known for having a magical ability to control water. A lot of characters from the same show who have an ability to control fire have bright gold eyes. Giving characters in a work of fiction odd colored eyes, especially when linked with some kind of magic, is not exactly unheard of.

[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by Ranchoth

My dig simply being that one of the Earthsea movies (the Scifi channel one) somewhat infamously used a mostly white cast, when the characters specifically weren't—the author (and fans, as I recall) really weren't pleased.

Ah, right. OK, I didn't know about that -- or the surrounding displeasure... which makes sense given Le Guin's concerns around the assumption of European protagonists in fantasy... and your comments are much more understandable in this context.

And, even for their fictional nature, the Water Tribe culture was based on that of the Inuit, and their physical appearance—even seen through the filter of an animation design, and with fantastic touches—was clearly closer to Inuit or Native American than European.

Kinda, sorta... oh, OK. I still don't think based on the animation that they're very Inuit, but I'll certainly grant that they're not pale skinned Nordic types.

If it had been me casting actors for the live action, and assuming that US actors were a prerequisite, I'd have gone with kids of mixed heritage... I'm thinking a look like Vanessa Hudgens for example, (European/Native American/Chinese/Filipino/Spanish) as a way to tone in with the animated source, make the characters look exotic, and not tie too closely to any one real-life ethnicity.

Originally Posted by Miller

Are there a lot of blue-eyed Inuit out there?

That's one of the "fantastic touches" that Ranchoth mentions... and to be fair, I watch enough anime where the supposedly Japanese characters have, for example, purple eyes, or green hair that no one even remarks on, that blue eyes are practically mundane.

[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by Miller

Ironically, from what I understand, this was largely done in reaction to the complaining about the races of the characters in the first place. Still, not the best solution to what really was never a problem in the first place.

People are always going to find something to carp about -- I'm reminded of the teacup-storm surrounding the supposed message that was being sent by having Jango Fett (being the clone template) played in Star Wars II & III by a Mexican.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Ranchoth

Your point seemed to be that, since Egyptians aren't really bright orange in real life, if you're making a movie about Ancient Egypt (adapted from said hieroglyphs, for this argument—I'd guess as a workaround for a new WGA strike ), there's no reason to cast Egyptian or middle-eastern actors, because the original art was clearly not intended to represent a real people's ethnicity, because of how it was stylized.

Well, that's the question, isn't it? Do the characters in Avatar not match any real-world race because they're stylized, or because the show's creators were deliberately trying to decouple race and culture, in an effort to emphasize the other-worldliness of the show's setting?

My point is that the Avatar cultures were specifically based on real-world cultures. The "Air Nomads" (airbenders) were Tibetan, "Water Tribe" were a blend of Inuit and Native American, the "Earth Kingdom" was China and east asia—a couple of minor characters even show up with Korean surnames and traditional clothing, in one episode. The magic "bending" forms are based on real world schools of martial arts. All the writing in the show is in actual traditional Chinese. Is the argument against that "well, since it's not literally supposed to be Earth, there's no reason to try to be consistent with the setting?"

Cultures, yes, undeniably. But you're the first person to mention culture in this thread. Everyone else is talking about race.

I think it's pretty clear that this isn't the case—there are plenty of characters that do look plainly asian, or inuit, or whathaveyou. Characters that don't so much can be explained by the art style of the series—it's influenced by anime, with the big ol' expressive eyeballs? Like Bambi? For various reasons, the depictions of race in anime tends to be more ambiguous than in western animation—look, here's Miyamoto Musashi. And another one.—that doesn't mean the races are supposed to be ambiguous, in the story. No more than Charlie Brown is supposed to be a hydrocephalus victim.

One of the reasons race tends to be ambiguous in Japanese animation is that Japan is an extremely homogenous culture, and so there's less concern with giving characters racial identifiers, as the audience is likely to project the dominant ethnicity in their culture onto the characters. In a more heterogenous and race-conscious society like the US, you don't have that assumption in the audience. The audience is going to be actively trying to identify the race of the characters. As such, I don't think it's entirely coincidental that the show was done in a style that tends to obscure race. Nor, for that matter, do I think it's an accident that the very first characters we see in the show are a pair of kids dressed like Inuit, but with fairer skin and blue eyes.

You mention the eye color, specifically, as a reason why characters from the show couldn't be based on a "real" race. Yes, some characters have blue eyes. And they're from a people known for having a magical ability to control water. A lot of characters from the same show who have an ability to control fire have bright gold eyes. Giving characters in a work of fiction odd colored eyes, especially when linked with some kind of magic, is not exactly unheard of.

Except that Sokka doesn't have any magical abilities at all. Neither does his grandmother, or any one else in the Southern Water tribe, other than Kitara. But they all have blue eyes. So eye color clearly isn't directly linked to bending ability. And if you want to argue that the blue eyes are an artifact of them being a group of people in a fantastic setting, well, I won't disagree with you there, because that's the foundation of my argument: They aren't a real ethnic group, they're a bunch of people living in a fantasy world. Therefore, complaining that the actors cast to play them are the wrong ethnicity doesn't make any sense, because the "proper" ethnicity doesn't exist in the real world.

[SciFiSam]

Originally Posted by Miller

One of the reasons race tends to be ambiguous in Japanese animation is that Japan is an extremely homogenous culture, and so there's less concern with giving characters racial identifiers, as the audience is likely to project the dominant ethnicity in their culture onto the characters. In a more heterogenous and race-conscious society like the US, you don't have that assumption in the audience. The audience is going to be actively trying to identify the race of the characters. As such, I don't think it's entirely coincidental that the show was done in a style that tends to obscure race. Nor, for that matter, do I think it's an accident that the very first characters we see in the show are a pair of kids dressed like Inuit, but with fairer skin and blue eyes.

I'm not entirely sure what my take on this subject is, but I will add this - Avatar is an American TV show, not Japanese; while the style is anime, it's erroneous to base opinions on it as if it were a Japanese programme. I admit that I was initially surprised when I heard that Avatar wasn't Japanese but it really isn't. The voices were by American actors because it was an American show.

The characters, to me, definitely looked like ordinary Japanese anime characters, and they would to most people, which is one of the reasons it would be jarring to have most of the live-action actors not be Asian at all.

Contrast it with Ben 10, which has a similar style fusing anime and Western cartooning but has main characters who are (for all the main characters and most of the recurring characters - except Julie, a regular in the cartoon but not the live action, who is Asian) definitely White European in their appearance.

[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by Miller

But you're the first person to mention culture in this thread. Everyone else is talking about race.

Point of order sir, I and others have used the term "ethnicity" in the discussion. Ethnicity does suggest common race, but also common heritage and culture (and language, and religion, etc).

[Ranchoth]

Originally Posted by Miller

Well, that's the question, isn't it? Do the characters in Avatar not match any real-world race because they're stylized, or because the show's creators were deliberately trying to decouple race and culture, in an effort to emphasize the other-worldliness of the show's setting?

Are you serious? Considering all the effort they put into building the Asian tone of the setting of the series; considering all the characters that do resemble members of real-world races, even with the cartoon stylization, the creators decide "well, let's now specifically make the characters not actually resemble any of the races from any of the places we're basing this world on"? I don't think that's a reasonable idea at all.

Originally Posted by Miller

Cultures, yes, undeniably. But you're the first person to mention culture in this thread. Everyone else is talking about race.

Let's see...I've been winding my way back through the spaghetti of posts, and it goes something like (to sum up):
[•b]spark240[/b] Asks what about the Water Tribe makes it so you need any specific ethnicity when casting their actors, especially since skin color/race wasn't the motif of the story.
•I reply, somewhat snarkily, attempting to make a point, that the ethnicity of the characters was important in regards to being part of the established setting—using examples of stories featuring cultures that would have had a specific racial makeup (prehistoric saxons; ancient Aztecs), and how casting the wrong raced actors for the roles would have messed with that part of the setting. (I think I tried to be implicit that Avatar was such a story, in regards to it's cultures. Though I don't think I spelled that out as much as I could.)
•You (Miller) reply by asking why, if there's no reason to tie the characters look to a real-world culture, why the race of the actors matters. (Though I interpreted your comment as on my snarky examples above as acknowledgment that they were situations where the race of a character would (legitimately) be tied to their culture—if it was a real world culture, or or tied to one.)
•I said that there was a specific reason to link the Avatar characters in particular to a real world culture(s).
•You reply that yes, but that I'm talking about culture, not race.

Look, maybe I'm really missing a step that badly. But I don't see it as that big of a leap to see the fictional cultures in Avatar as being tied close enough to real-world cultures where the characters' race would be a factor, and thus should be when casting, especially when you consider the overall setting as a whole. I'd like to hope I didn't do that badly in spelling that out.

Originally Posted by Miller

One of the reasons race tends to be ambiguous in Japanese animation is that Japan is an extremely homogenous culture, and so there's less concern with giving characters racial identifiers, as the audience is likely to project the dominant ethnicity in their culture onto the characters. In a more heterogenous and race-conscious society like the US, you don't have that assumption in the audience. The audience is going to be actively trying to identify the race of the characters. As such, I don't think it's entirely coincidental that the show was done in a style that tends to obscure race. Nor, for that matter, do I think it's an accident that the very first characters we see in the show are a pair of kids dressed like Inuit, but with fairer skin and blue eyes.

(Bolding mine) Really? And not that, say, because the anime animation style is popular in the west at this moment, among artists and audiences? Or at it lends itself well to an action/adventure/comedy/drama series? Or it lends itself to the particular setting better than Tex Avery-styled cartoons? It's because they wanted to deliberately obscure the races of the characters?

I'm sorry, but I think that's a leap. I don't know for certain what went through the creators' heads, and no one else can, unless they tell us themselves. But from all I know about the series, all I've seen in the series, and what they did or were trying to do with it, I simply don't think your conclusion follows at all. I don't think it's consistent with what we've seen on the show as it aired, and I don't think it's a particularly likely approach for the creators to want to take beforehand.

Except that Sokka doesn't have any magical abilities at all. Neither does his grandmother, or any one else in the Southern Water tribe, other than Kitara. But they all have blue eyes. So eye color clearly isn't directly linked to bending ability.

With all respect, this is splitting hairs. The Southern Water Tribe, in the story, had suffered genocidal campaigns of exterminating their members with bending ability—other water tribes had plenty of benders (and weird colored eyes), and the Fire Nation had even more of their own. That's not even accounting for other in-universe explanations (trace bender genes floating around the non-bender gene pool; possible influence of natural magic), or stylistic explanations (like how all the cultures of the Avatar world have the name of their affiliated element in their name, and wear appropriately color-coded clothing, planetwide, all the time).

[/quote]And if you want to argue that the blue eyes are an artifact of them being a group of people in a fantastic setting, well, I won't disagree with you there, because that's the foundation of my argument: They aren't a real ethnic group, they're a bunch of people living in a fantasy world. Therefore, complaining that the actors cast to play them are the wrong ethnicity doesn't make any sense, because the "proper" ethnicity doesn't exist in the real world.[/quote]

And...I fear we're going around in circles. I say a people in a work of fiction is pretty clearly based on a real world group; their culture is based on that people's, their appearance is based on that people. But you say because there are some differences—they have pointy ears, or they have a different name, or it's explicitly not our planet the story takes place on—all the other evidence just...doesn't matter? Thus since it can't be the exact same ethnic group, it can just as well be any ethnic group?

I don't think that follows, and I really don't think that's enough to justify throwing chunks of the work's setting out the window.

And I'm done bushed.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by scifisam2009

I'm not entirely sure what my take on this subject is, but I will add this - Avatar is an American TV show, not Japanese; while the style is anime, it's erroneous to base opinions on it as if it were a Japanese programme. I admit that I was initially surprised when I heard that Avatar wasn't Japanese but it really isn't. The voices were by American actors because it was an American show.

I know. That's precisely my point. If it were a Japanese production, it would not be particularly notable that none of the characters have an evident real-world ethnicity. Because it is an American production, that fact suddenly becomes significant.

[Miller]

Ranchoth, I agree that we're going around in circles at this point. I don't think that there are any areas of our arguments that either of us need to clarify.

[Malthus]

In the TV show at least, all of the "races" were evidently similar enough that a person from one tribe could appear to be a person from another, merely by changing clothes. It was a repeating plot point, and a major one.

Thus, whatever "race" they are, they must all look "racially" pretty similar (or have a similar mix). It *cannot* be the case that tribe A is racially A, while tribe B is racially B. If that were the case, then the gang wore fire-nation clothes and wandered around in the fire nation, they would have been pretty obvious ...

Thus, making all of the fire nation dark-skinned is gonna be a problem. It would not have been a problem to have them all white, or all oriental, or all a sorta mix of everything.

[Chronos]

Even though not all of the members of the Water Tribe are waterbenders, they do all have a racial proclivity towards waterbending. Two non-bender waterfolk could have a waterbending child, but they could not have an earthbending child, nor could two earthfolk have a waterbending child.

In the TV show at least, all of the "races" were evidently similar enough that a person from one tribe could appear to be a person from another, merely by changing clothes. It was a repeating plot point, and a major one.

Not quite. When the main characters infiltrated the Fire Nation, they did not pass as being of Fire Nation ancestry, nor did they try to. Instead, they claimed to be from the colonies in the lands formerly controlled by the Earth Kingdom. So the typical Fire Nation person on the street could tell that they weren't Fire Kingdom, but couldn't tell the difference between Earthers and Waterers (and Air Nomads, but that's more understandable, given that they were thought to be extinct). This could mean that the other three nations really did look similar and that it was just the Fire Nation who were distinctive, but more likely, it just reflects Fire Nation insularity and a cultural tendency to divide the world into "us" and "not-us" (a tendency which is, of course, found to at least some degree in all human cultures).

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Not quite. When the main characters infiltrated the Fire Nation, they did not pass as being of Fire Nation ancestry, nor did they try to. Instead, they claimed to be from the colonies in the lands formerly controlled by the Earth Kingdom. So the typical Fire Nation person on the street could tell that they weren't Fire Kingdom, but couldn't tell the difference between Earthers and Waterers (and Air Nomads, but that's more understandable, given that they were thought to be extinct). This could mean that the other three nations really did look similar and that it was just the Fire Nation who were distinctive, but more likely, it just reflects Fire Nation insularity and a cultural tendency to divide the world into "us" and "not-us" (a tendency which is, of course, found to at least some degree in all human cultures).

My impression was that they passed themselves off as "fire nation" children who happened to be from the colonies, not as earthers and water-ers. Aang gets sent to a school for fire-nation children, for example; he explained his odd choice of vocabulary, and lack of knowledge of current fire nation-slang, by the fact he was from the colonies - no-one raised a concern about his appearance, though he had to wear a headband to hide his tattoos.

I doubt an earth or water-nation child would be sent to a fire nation school, as allegedly they were dispised and oppressed colonial subjects.

Edit: moreover, the disguises sometimes went the other way: Prince Zukov and his uncle, for example, pretended to not be fire nation - and that is made very clear.

[Malthus]

For example, in the episode "Zhuko alone":

After leaving his uncle, Zuko continues his journey to an Earth Kingdom town alone, where a young boy brings him home to dinner. The episode is dedicated partially to flashbacks of Zuko's life before banishment, such as incidents with his sister Azula and his loving mother Ursa. While his uncle Iroh was formerly the heir to the throne, he lost heart due to the death of his son Lu Ten during the 600-day siege of Ba Sing Se, leading to Zuko's own father Ozai becoming Crown Prince instead. Finally, Fire Lord Azulon died on the same day Ursa disappeared, with Ozai succeeding to the throne. In the present day, Zuko defends the young boy's family from Earth Kingdom soldiers who are acting like thugs, but is shunned by those who befriended him when he reveals his true nationality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar:...nder_(season_2)

This is gonna be hard to explain, if everyone from the fire nation is dark-skinned, and everyone in the earth nation is light-skinned.

[Chronos]

Hm, true, Zuko did pass as an Earther, and didn't have to offer any explanation. This was probably helped by the fact that his most prominent feature is an obvious burn scar, which would naturally lead people to think that he'd been fighting against the Fire Nation, but it still indicates that there's not all that much difference.

[audiobottle]

It's been a while since I saw that (amazingly terrible) movie, but I remember being struck by how the main characters from the Water tribe were distinctly white looking, while the rest of the tribe were much darker skinned. It was to the point that I remember wondering if they had changed the story so that they were adopted. If my recollection is right, that would be a lot more conspicuous of a choice than if they had made the entire tribe white looking. Does anybody else remember this?

[Ranchoth]

Originally Posted by audiobottle

It's been a while since I saw that (amazingly terrible) movie, but I remember being struck by how the main characters from the Water tribe were distinctly white looking, while the rest of the tribe were much darker skinned. It was to the point that I remember wondering if they had changed the story so that they were adopted. If my recollection is right, that would be a lot more conspicuous of a choice than if they had made the entire tribe white looking. Does anybody else remember this?

I've seen a couple of stills from the movie that showed a lot of Water Tribe extras who weren't white actors—and IIRC, I heard one movie reviewer who said he was confused at first when he saw that, thinking at first they were going to make it a plot point that Sokka and Katara's family were immigrants, or something, but no—apparently, the extras were actually Inuit. As they actually filmed part of the movie in Greenland.

Ah, here we go—these are the only stills I could find. (The website was interesting, too.)