The Los Angeles Vikings

[Gangster Octopus]

Vikings Contacted by Two Owner Groups for Los Angeles Relocation

The Minnesota Vikings are currently in the final year of their lease at the outdated Metrodome, meaning that next year, the team could literally be anywhere.

Los Angeles, the subject of increasingly-loud rumblings of new stadiums and franchise courtships, appears to again find itself in the center of relocation rumors, as two L.A. groups have reportedly contacted Vikings about possible relocation, ESPN.com reports.

"We have been approached by two different groups in Los Angeles -- the Ed Roski group and more recently by former Timberwolves CEO Tim Leiweke and AEG," Vikings vice president of public affairs Lester Bagley said in a chat on the team's website on Tuesday.

It all hinges on whether the people of Minnesota will be suckers and pay for a new stadium for billionaire owner Zygi Wilf. As a Packer fan this gives me no joy. I hate the Vikings, but love the rivalry. In fact I grew up right on the Minnesota-Wisconsin border near Minneapolis, so while we were Wisconsinites, all of our news and television was Vikings dominated. Loyalties in the town, even in my family, were split.

If the Vikings were to move I wonder if they would join the NFC East and then the St. Louis Rams would join the NFC North? Seems weird, but logical, of course.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I hope the Vikings stay put. I hate it when NFL teams move from one city to another, especially over stadium complaints by billionaire owners. LA should get a team at some point, but it should be an expansion team, not some other town's team.

[dalej42]

I'd like it. Put the Vikings in the NFC West and move the Rams to the NFC North. Makes an easier travel schedule for the NFC West and St. Louis fits geographically into the NFC North.

[Oakminster]

I really wish local governments would get together and decide, as a unit, that tax dollars will not be spent for pro sports stadiums. If the teams want a stadium, let them build it..and pay for it themselves.

[Spiff]

Ah ... the millionaire extortion game begins: Build me a new stadium or I'll move your beloved team to a city that will love it more.

Since tax dollars would almost certainly be required to build a new stadium in the Twin Cities metro area, I don't see us building Zygi a new playground.

But ... seeing as the rabid "no new taxes" crowd doesn't find THESE types of taxes objectionable ("It's for the VIKINGS!"), it may happen.

[Jim's Son]

I think the NFL likes having Los Angeles without an NFL team so the other owners can use the threat of moving there to get a new stadium in their current city. Woody Johnson of the New Jersey Jets made that threat a few years ago.


But I'm sure the rabid "more taxes please" crowd will fully endorse these extortions. Advice to Vikings fans if they move: buy a large screen tv and watch in your living room.

[mlees]

The owner of the San Diego Chargers makes this threat like clockwork, too.

[zoog]

It would be pretty amusing to me as a Bears fan for a season or two (however long it takes them to realign). The L.A. Vikings home games against the Bears and Packers - and to a lesser extent, the Lions - would be more like home games for the visiting team than for the Vikings. We have a lot of midwestern transplants out here.

That actually makes me wonder - what would the reaction of the Vikings fans who live out here be like? Would they be excited to have their team nearby, or would they feel betrayed that the team left their "native" land? I kind of think that I'd hate it if this were the Bears, which I acknowledge is kind of hypocritical seeing as I relocated here myself years ago.

[Intergalactic Gladiator]

Hasn't LA already proven about half a dozen times that it can't sustain a football team?

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

I really wish local governments would get together and decide, as a unit, that tax dollars will not be spent for pro sports stadiums. If the teams want a stadium, let them build it..and pay for it themselves.

The extortion is bad enough, but then when they get the stadium they practically treat it as disposable. The Metrodome isn't even 30 years old; and how many other stadiums from that era have been abandoned and demolished?

So go ahead, build a palace for these millionaires. Once it's not bright and shiny anymore, they'll demand an even better palace.

[Omniscient]

Originally Posted by Intergalactic Gladiator

Hasn't LA already proven about half a dozen times that it can't sustain a football team?

LA has never had a problem supporting a team. The people simply refused to fund a new stadium, end of story. If LA is now willing to fund a stadium, or if private money is making it happen, the only negative to being in LA is gone.

[Lamar Mundane]

Makes as much sense as the LA Lakers, why not?

Next, the LA North Stars.

[John DiFool]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

I hope the Vikings stay put. I hate it when NFL teams move from one city to another, especially over stadium complaints by billionaire owners. LA should get a team at some point, but it should be an expansion team, not some other town's team.

Hell, I still find it confusing:

Friend: "The Jags are playing Baltimore this weekend."

Me: "Umm the Colts-no wait the...Ravens."

I do the same thing with the Rams.

[ElvisL1ves]

The Colts have actually now been in Indy longer than they were in Baltimore. That wasn't their original home, either; they were the Dallas Texans before that.

[Bartman]

Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves

The Colts have actually now been in Indy longer than they were in Baltimore. That wasn't their original home, either; they were the Dallas Texans before that.

Well kinda... But if you are going to include that muddy ancestry why not go all the way and include their various other incarnations as well:
The Dayton Triangles --> The Brooklyn Dodgers --> The Brooklyn Tigers who merged with The Boston Yanks to form The *Undisclosed Location* Yanks --> New York Yankees --> Dallas Texans where the ownership eventually merged in 1953 with the remains of The Miami Seahawks --> The 1947-50 Baltimore Colts.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

The Vikings aren't going anywhere. This is just Zygi trying to spook the legislature into moving its ass on a stadium deal.

[Shot Clock]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

The people simply refused to fund a new stadium, end of story. If LA is now willing to fund a stadium, or if private money is making it happen, the only negative to being in LA is gone.

I think it would most certainly have to be private money. How the hell can they justify raiding the LA and California public exchequer for a stadium when the whole damned state's on the verge of being repossessed?

[OldGuy]

Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves

The Colts have actually now been in Indy longer than they were in Baltimore. That wasn't their original home, either; they were the Dallas Texans before that.

Not quite.
Baltimore Colts 1953-1983 31 seasons
Indianapolis Colts 1984-2010 27 seasons

[Omniscient]

Originally Posted by Shot Clock

I think it would most certainly have to be private money. How the hell can they justify raiding the LA and California public exchequer for a stadium when the whole damned state's on the verge of being repossessed?

Simmons had a interesting Podcast with one of the principles of a group trying to build a football stadium in LA. The gist of their business proposal is that they'll package the stadium construction with a complete revamping of the LA convention center and a couple other municipal works. The upshot being that it's in the cities best interest to fund the project locally based on the revenue that a year-round facility would generate. Currently LA is essentially a dead stick when it comes to the crazy lucrative convention business and it would create a lot of jobs.

What proportion will be public money and what will be private wasn't discussed, but he couched the discussion in a way that obviously was intended to make getting some public money a possibility. The impact of LA Live and the Staples Center on downtown LA is a pretty strong marketing tool and could pretty easily swap some public opinion on the subject.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Jim's Son

Woody Johnson of the New Jersey Jets made that threat a few years ago.

It's worth pointing out that Woody's new stadium wasn't funded with taxpayer dollars. Sure the cost was defrayed by splitting the bill with the Giants, but it still ended up costing like $800m each.

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

The extortion is bad enough, but then when they get the stadium they practically treat it as disposable. The Metrodome isn't even 30 years old; and how many other stadiums from that era have been abandoned and demolished?

Most of them, but in fairness 30 years ago they didn't build luxury boxes. A new stadium can legitimately bring in far more revenue than a 30-year old one, so it's not like they want a new stadium just for the sake of having one.

[Omniscient]

As an aside, if any team besides Jacksonville gets moved to LA I am going to be furious.

[mkecane]

I'm a Vikings fan living in Wisconsin, and I say "let them go." I hate hate hate the idea of taxpayers paying for stadiums for the benefit of the owners, so fvck it. Go, stay, I don't care.

Originally Posted by Jim's Son

I think the NFL likes having Los Angeles without an NFL team so the other owners can use the threat of moving there to get a new stadium in their current city. Woody Johnson of the New Jersey Jets made that threat a few years ago.

That may be true, but surely, Jacksonville doesn't want to see the Jaguars go to Minnesota, does it?! Minnesota could be the new Cleveland (in football terms only, of course).

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

The extortion is bad enough, but then when they get the stadium they practically treat it as disposable. The Metrodome isn't even 30 years old; and how many other stadiums from that era have been abandoned and demolished?

The Falcons and NFL are already trying to get a free replacement for the Georgia Dome, which opened in '92. They're dangling the carrot of a future Super Bowl over the heads of GA politicians.

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

Most of them, but in fairness 30 years ago they didn't build luxury boxes. A new stadium can legitimately bring in far more revenue than a 30-year old one, so it's not like they want a new stadium just for the sake of having one.

And when they get their luxury boxes, they'll want a retractable roof, or a field that slides out into the parking lot, or mood lighting on the outside. Fuck 'em, you can't always have the biggest, nicest, bestest playroom among you and all your rich friends. Do you think the Vikings owners weren't consulted about the Metrodome when it was being designed? If there aren't enough luxury boxes, too bad. When taxpayers build a stadium, if nothing else they should get their money's worth; build it to last and the team should stay as long as it does.

Taxpayer funded stadiums are an unjustified waste. Asking taxpayers to fund a new stadium with luxury boxes that those taxpayers will never be invited into ought to be a fucking outrage.

Originally Posted by mkecane

The Falcons and NFL are already trying to get a free replacement for the Georgia Dome, which opened in '92. They're dangling the carrot of a future Super Bowl over the heads of GA politicians.

You're kidding. 18 years and it's just not good enough anymore? Tell the Falcons' owners to piss up a rope.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by John DiFool

Hell, I still find it confusing:

Friend: "The Jags are playing Baltimore this weekend."

Me: "Umm the Colts-no wait the...Ravens."

I do the same thing with the Rams.

I had a flashback or something, and got all sorts of confused while reading a report about a game between Arizona and St. Louis a couple seasons ago. The Cardinals won the game easily, but the article kept talking about how well Arizona played.....

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

And when they get their luxury boxes, they'll want a retractable roof, or a field that slides out into the parking lot, or mood lighting on the outside. Fuck 'em, you can't always have the biggest, nicest, bestest playroom among you and all your rich friends.

I'm not sure you're understanding the point. A retractable roof, field that slides out in the parking lot, and mood lighting on the outside doesn't make the stadium more profitable, so those wouldn't be legitimate reasons to build a new stadium.

You won't find any argument from me that teams should build their own stadiums and leave the taxpayers alone, but quite frankly your little tantrums about it are embarassing.

[zamboniracer]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

It's worth pointing out that Woody's new stadium wasn't funded with taxpayer dollars. Sure the cost was defrayed by splitting the bill with the Giants, but it still ended up costing like $800m each.

Most of them, but in fairness 30 years ago they didn't build luxury boxes. A new stadium can legitimately bring in far more revenue than a 30-year old one, so it's not like they want a new stadium just for the sake of having one.

Wait a minute, that can't be correct. To my knowledge, the first stadium with money making luxury boxes was the Cowboys' Texas Stadium, which opened in the early 1970s when the team relocated to Irving TX from the Cotton Bowl. Every stadium built after that has had such boxes, including Giants Stadium and the Metrodome, haven't they?

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

I'm not sure you're understanding the point. A retractable roof, field that slides out in the parking lot, and mood lighting on the outside doesn't make the stadium more profitable, so those wouldn't be legitimate reasons to build a new stadium.

A retractable roof means no chance of rainouts for baseball games; that way you can attract more casual fans, families and such, who might only go to one game a year and wouldn't risk it if there was a chance of a rainout.¹ A sliding field means you can host consumer expos, monster truck shows, and the like. And do I even need to mention the branding opportunities that colored lighting would bring? You could switch from Coca-Cola Field at Bank of America Place to John Deere Presents the Monsanto Dirt Bowl in a heartbeat.

You won't find any argument from me that teams should build their own stadiums and leave the taxpayers alone, but quite frankly your little tantrums about it are embarassing.

I've been embarassed plenty of times in my life. Now is not one of those times.


1. I actually heard that one when I lived in Seattle.

[Sitnam]

Originally Posted by Gangster Octopus

As a Packer fan this gives me no joy. I hate the Vikings, but love the rivalry. In fact I grew up right on the Minnesota-Wisconsin border near Minneapolis, so while we were Wisconsinites, all of our news and television was Vikings dominated. Loyalties in the town, even in my family, were split.

Seconded.

[Skammer]

When the Patriots' new stadium was built in 2001, it was 100% financed by team owner Robert Kraft. The city and state had to pay some money for infrastructure, if I recall correctly, but since there had already been a stadium in that location the changes were not enormous and the tax revenue from the stadium has more than made up for it.

The Pats came very close to moving to Hartford who was willing to build a publicly financed stadium, even signing the deal, but fortunately for Foxboro that fell through.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by zamboniracer

Wait a minute, that can't be correct. To my knowledge, the first stadium with money making luxury boxes was the Cowboys' Texas Stadium, which opened in the early 1970s when the team relocated to Irving TX from the Cotton Bowl. Every stadium built after that has had such boxes, including Giants Stadium and the Metrodome, haven't they?

Yes, but only a handful.

It's surprisingly hard to google stats for Giants Stadium, and the wiki page doesn't really say, but going by memory I think Giants Stadium had 75 luxury boxes and several hundred club seats. The New Meadowlands Stadium has 218 luxury boxes and 10,005 club seats. I can't even hazard a guess about the increased revenue, but it has to be many millions of dollars.

I just discovered why the luxury box issue is far more relevant than bells and whistles like retractable roofs or sliding fields. Wiki says:

Under the NFL's current revenue sharing agreement, teams must forfeit a large portion of their ticket revenues so that the funds can be redistributed among all the teams, particularly those in smaller markets. However, the luxury boxes, quickly becoming a top source of revenue for the franchises, were exempted from this sharing requirement. Because of this as well as the NFL's blackout rule, there has been a rush in recent years to sacrifice seating capacity in favor of the luxury boxes, and teams have pressed state and local governments for financial assistance to either build new stadiums or renovate older venues. These new stadiums and renovations generally cost hundreds of millions of dollars; the two newest NFL stadiums, Cowboys Stadium and New Meadowlands Stadium, each cost over $1 billion.

The luxury box conundrum is one of the reasons why Los Angeles, which has two older stadiums (the Rose Bowl and the LA Coliseum) that both seat over 90,000 but contain few luxury boxes, still does not have an NFL franchise 14 years after both the Rams and Raiders departed in 1995.

I'm not thrilled with how the first paragraph implies that the New Meadowlands Stadium was built with taxpayer money, but whatever.

[Stink Fish Pot]

This is one thing that completely chaps my ass. With the amount of money being generated by these leagues, not to mention owner wealth, the taxpayers once again gets to grab their collective ankles and wait for the inevitable.

Fuck you, Zygi Wilf. You have enough money. With the Vikings, you'll make more. Leave the taxpayers of Minnesota alone.

One of these days, the taxpayers of a city are going to revolt. Perhaps a mob dragging Wilf (or one of the other owners) from his home in the middle of the night and stringing him up by his Bruno Magli's might help him find a way to finance it himself.

Greedy pricks.

[ElvisL1ves]

That "one of these days" has happened already. In LA. Twice.

[etv78]

1. Move the Panthers to the AFC South
2. Move L.A. Jaguars to NFC West
3. Move Rams to NFC South

[astorian]

Fans have no reason to worry just because their team is making noises about moving to Los Angeles.

Sure, there are LOADS of teams (including the Vikings, Jaguars and Chargers) who'd LOVE to move to L.A., but their fans shouldn't sweat it right now.

The time to worry will be when the politicians and taxpayers of Los Angeles (or one of its suburbs) agree to shell out the money for a new stadium- and THAT remains as unlikely as ever. Remember, Angelenos have been refusing to pay for a new stadium for ages, even when the economy was booming. Why would they agree to pay for a stadium NOW, when the city and state are going broke?

If the Vikings tell the mayor of L.A. "We want to move to your city," they'll get the same answer teams have gotten since the Raiders left: "Great! Hope you like the Colosseum." And, like all the other teams, the Vikings will say, "Er, on second thought, we'll stay put."

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by zamboniracer

Wait a minute, that can't be correct. To my knowledge, the first stadium with money making luxury boxes was the Cowboys' Texas Stadium, which opened in the early 1970s when the team relocated to Irving TX from the Cotton Bowl. Every stadium built after that has had such boxes, including Giants Stadium and the Metrodome, haven't they?

Well, there's just not enough of them, you see.

Originally Posted by astorian

Fans have no reason to worry just because their team is making noises about moving to Los Angeles.

Sure, there are LOADS of teams (including the Vikings, Jaguars and Chargers) who'd LOVE to move to L.A., but their fans shouldn't sweat it right now.

The Chargers want to move to LA? Are they hurting for cash in San Diego? I never heard that one.

[Ellis Dee]

The Chargers are hurting for fans. San Diego fans are terrible, on par with Miami.

[gonzomax]

Building a stadium does not satisfy the greedy owners. In Detroit area we built the Silverdome. It was done in 1975. It held over 80,000 fans. That was not enough for Ford. He did not have luxury seats and was not collecting the parking fess and concessions. So he has us build Ford Field with a much smaller attendance.
The Silverdome was not crumbling and it worked fine. It was built in under budget and on time.
You can expect the football owners to threaten their way into a new stadium every 25 years. As long as cities cave they may as well. it works.
I forgot seat licensing too.

[NDP]

Originally Posted by Stink fish Pot

One of these days, the taxpayers of a city are going to revolt. Perhaps a mob dragging Wilf (or one of the other owners) from his home in the middle of the night and stringing him up by his Bruno Magli's might help him find a way to finance it himself.

Greedy pricks.

I doubt even that would do anything. No matter what the sport, all team owners are unified in their insistence that all new venues for their teams be publicly-financed regardless of whether they're actually rich enough to do it themselves. San Francisco Giants' owner Peter Magowan built the Giants' park with private funds but such a move supposedly made him instantly unpopular with his MLB-owners brethren.

Originally Posted by gonzomax

You can expect the football owners to threaten their way into a new stadium every 25 years. As long as cities cave they may as well. it works.
I forgot seat licensing too.

It's not just football team owners. The owners of MLB, NBA, and NHA franchises play the market extortion game too. However, they sometimes don't bother to wait 20-25 years to do this. It had only been 12 years since Key Arena had been completely renovated before the Seattle Supersonics demanded a brand new publicly-funded arena or they'd move (which they ended up doing).

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by NDP

No matter what the sport, all team owners are unified in their insistence that all new venues for their teams be publicly-financed regardless of whether they're actually rich enough to do it themselves.

This is cleary untrue. The Patriots and the Giants/Jets built brand new stadiums without taxpayer money.

However, they sometimes don't bother to wait 20-25 years to do this. It had only been 12 years since Key Arena had been completely renovated before the Seattle Supersonics demanded a brand new publicly-funded arena or they'd move (which they ended up doing).

When did renovations become synonymous with building a new stadium?

[Stink Fish Pot]

Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves

That "one of these days" has happened already. In LA. Twice.

were both of the moves out of LA a simple matter of non-financing of a new stadium? I knew that played a part, but I didn't know it was the only part. As I understand it, there was a feeling at the time that there were about 3 stadiums that could have been used for an NFL team.

1) the Rams - I thought the people of LA were delighted to see Georgia Frontiere go away... far away.

2) the Raiders - Al Davis is not the easiest joker to do business with. I think everyone with the exception of the street gangs who adopted the team colors as their mascot were happy to see the Raiders leave. I was glad Davis moved them back to Oakland, because that's where they belong.

LA doesn't need a team, and I think this stretch has proved it. But if they get a team, I can't see expansion. A team like Jacksonville would probably be moved .

[RetroVertigo]

Originally Posted by etv78

1. Move the Panthers to the AFC South
2. Move L.A. Jaguars to NFC West
3. Move Rams to NFC South

The Panthers are much better suited (geographically speaking) for the NFC South. I would just switch St. Louis, and Jacksonville. St. Louis would have natural rivalries with Indy and Nashville that Carolina would lack.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Spiff

But ... seeing as the rabid "no new taxes" crowd doesn't find THESE types of taxes objectionable ("It's for the VIKINGS!"), it may happen.

http://reason.com/archives/2004/11/12/ballpark-figures

http://www.aei.org/paper/21445

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2830

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5496

http://www.afphq.org/175-million-tax...seball-stadium

http://www.atr.org/boston-red-sox-pu...axpayers-a5216

[hajario]

The Chargers have the option to move every year so long as they pay off what remains on the bonds. That number, of course, gets smaller every year. They already announced that 2011 will be in San Diego.

[gonzomax]

The value of a franchise skyrockets when the tax payers buy a nice fancy stadium for the poor downtrodden owners. The Lions were bought for 4.5 million by Ford. They are worth 800 million now. When they sell, I am sure they will share the profits with the taxpayers who funded them for so many years. It would be the right thing to do.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Originally Posted by Intergalactic Gladiator

Hasn't LA already proven about half a dozen times that it can't sustain a football team?

Well, twice at least, anyway.

I really hope they don't come here; in face, I hope we don't get any pro team playing downtown until they finish some of the major transit projects that are in the pipeline.

[President Johnny Gentle]

Originally Posted by furt

http://reason.com/archives/2004/11/12/ballpark-figures

http://www.aei.org/paper/21445

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2830

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5496

http://www.afphq.org/175-million-tax...seball-stadium

http://www.atr.org/boston-red-sox-pu...axpayers-a5216

None of these really talk about the political situation in Minnesota however, where the Republicans tended to be a larger base of support for the Twins stadium and for Vikings proposals. It's significant now that the Democratic Governor-elect hasn't come out against a stadium. The problems occurring with the Metrodome came at an opportune time for the Vikings. I think a new stadium deal gets done, probably this coming session.

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by President Johnny Gentle

None of these really talk about the political situation in Minnesota however, where the Republicans tended to be a larger base of support for the Twins stadium and for Vikings proposals. It's significant now that the Democratic Governor-elect hasn't come out against a stadium. The problems occurring with the Metrodome came at an opportune time for the Vikings. I think a new stadium deal gets done, probably this coming session.

I thought we were in a recession? We can not help the poor , the i=unemployed or the uninsured. But, a biilionaire wants a new stadium on taxpayer money, here it is.

[zamboniracer]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

This is cleary untrue. The Patriots and the Giants/Jets built brand new stadiums without taxpayer money.

Would that all sports teams did that rather than sponge off the taxpayers.

As I understand it, the NFL has a fund paid for by a percentage of seat licenses that it lends to teams for a portion of stadium construction. The NFL being technically a non profit company made up of its 32 member teams, so that the members really loan each other money for a portion of stadium construction costs.

[Ellis Dee]

Anyone know if Jerryworld was built with taxpayer money?

[Ike Witt]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

Anyone know if Jerryworld was built with taxpayer money?

According to Wikipdedia:

Originally estimated to cost $650 million, the stadium's current construction cost was $1.15 billion,[13] making it one of the most expensive sports venues ever built. To aid Cowboys owner and general manager Jerry Jones in paying the construction costs of the new stadium, Arlington voters approved the increase of the city's sales tax by 0.5 percent, the hotel occupancy tax by 2 percent, and car rental tax by 5 percent. The City of Arlington provided over $325 million (including interest) in bonds as funding,[13][14] and Jones covered any cost overruns. Also, the NFL provided the Cowboys with an additional $150 million, as per their policy for giving teams a certain lump sum of money for stadium financing.

So, yeah the taxpayers chipped in, but Jerry paid the lions share out of his own pocket.