Penn and Teller: Fool Us

[JSexton]

Did anyone else catch this? A neat little BBC special hosted by Jonathan Ross, it's sort of like American Idol meets Penn and Teller. A number of magicians were invited to perform for Penn and Teller, with the promise that if the duo could not identify how the trick was done, they would be flown to Vegas to perform alongside them,

No spoilers, but there were some terrific magicians on the show. Also one extremely mediocre one, but what can you do? I was hoping this was going to be a short series, but alas, it's just a one-off.

[Skammer]

Didn't see it, but it sounds cool. Did anyone manage to fool them?

[billfish678]

Would it be too much of a spoiler to ask if anybody succeeded? Or did some of the acts at least impress Penn and Teller if not outright fool em?

Spoiler box any answer if you feel its a good idea.

I suspect they both would be very delighted to see someone pull one over on em rather than be offended that someone bested them.

[Mahaloth]

Wow, fooling Penn and Teller with a trick would be rather hard. I've seen a magician fool Teller in a very simple trick(it's on youtube), but that was mostly because Teller was playing along and got called on it by the magician.

I would guess elaborate tricks are not the way to go if you are going to fool them. Teller is a magic historian and knows the fundamentals of how nearly all tricks are done.

Did anyone succeed? Was it elaborate or simple?

[Meeko]

Originally Posted by Mahaloth

Teller is a magic historian and knows the fundamentals of how nearly all tricks are done.

Something tells me, he isn't going to tell anyone.


I love the premise of this, but hate it because I can't personally think of anything.

[JSexton]

Spoilering results:

SPOILER:

One guy did a version of cutting a person in half, but on himself. Cool presentation, but obvious even to an amateur like me.

There were several very impressive performances, including a couple of card routines that were gem flawless. One of them was a seamless classic routine that Penn very much enjoyed watching, but he was familiar with the age-old techniques.

Another close-up guy did a card trick that legitimately fooled them They described the method they thought he used (false shuffles), and they were straight up wrong. Apparently there was another magician backstage who had been shown the method, and he confirmed they they were wrong. Teller looked stunned at this.

And then the best part. A chunky ex-cop in a hawaiian shirt who described himself as a comic magician. You could tell from the look on Penn's face that he expects a clumsy cup and balls routine or something. Instead he presents five envelopes, four of which contain a fake 0-dollar bill with his face, and one of which contains 100 pounds. On the envelopes are written Something, Nothing, Mine, Yours, and Sex, and he has a terrific patter than goes along with this (a cross between Who's on First and the Wine In Front Of Me sequence). He presents five audience members with their choice of envelopes, and one by one they each get stuck with the goat. At the end, he has the Mine envelope, and reveals 5 crisp 20-pound notes.

Penn and Teller stew on this for a while, examining his props. Finally Penn yells "They're just goddamn envelopes!" and admits to being flummoxed. The probe a bit, and propose a theory about a 6th inner envelope stuff with cash that gets moved around, and the magician replies that nothing gets inserted into the envelopes during the trick. They are stumped, and Penn mock-fumes about it all night. "We wanted to be fooled, but not by HIM!" Obviously, his whole appearance is misdirection, and he's actually pretty talented, despite his beach bum appearance.

[yojimbo]

P & T were very impressed with a few of the acts. Particulary the close up card guys.


It was a good show and if ya'll get a change to see it by whatever means available then you should.

[Slade]

Two tricks actually fooled them, one of which was an extremely simple envelopes routine, more suited to a Northern working men's club than a Vegas casino.

Penn and Teller seemed simultaneously pleased and irritated to be fooled by the envelopes routine - though not in a churlish way - and outright delighted by the other one, which involved some very accomplished close-up magic with a deck of cards.

To be fair, though, I think both of the foolings relied a little on technicalities. It wasn't so much that Penn and Teller had no idea how the trick was done, just that their explanation may not have described the trick's finest level of detail with 100% accuracy. I got the impression that the two challengers involved had rung one ingenious change to an established technique, and the fact that Penn & Teller couldn't immediately put their finger on precisely what that change was allowed the producers to decide they'd been fooled.

Just to nitpick for a moment, the programme actually went out on ITV rather than BBC - which is stunning, when you consider that ITV normally shows 100% crap.

[TriPolar]

Is this show available online somewhere? Or expected to be broadcast here in the US?

[JSexton]

Originally Posted by Slade

To be fair, though, I think both of the foolings relied a little on technicalities. It wasn't so much that Penn and Teller had no idea how the trick was done, just that their explanation may not have described the trick's finest level of detail with 100% accuracy. I got the impression that the two challengers involved had rung one ingenious change to an established technique, and the fact that Penn & Teller couldn't immediately put their finger on precisely what that change was allowed the producers to decide they'd been fooled.

If I followed the conversation right, they were pretty far off on the card guy's trick. They thought he was doing false shuffles, when in fact he was doing real shuffles and mentally tracking the place of the aces. That's a very different method. And then they showed them backstage clarifying that they were genuinely stumped by a couple portions of what he did. I've no doubt that later that night they reviewed footage and figured it out, but it's no technicality; Penn and Teller could not identify the method he used.

As for the envelope trick, I still have no idea how that was done, so it's hard to say for sure. Teller looked genuinely mystified, although he might have been playing it up for the crowd at home.

[ianzin]

It was a one-off show, but there are ongoing discussions about maybe repeating it four times a year.

There were two routines that were deemed to have 'fooled' Penn & Teller.

The close-up sleight-of-hand card routine that fooled them was performed by Ben Earl. Penn asserted that the routine used 'false shuffles'. This was not strictly correct. Ben was legitimately shuffling the cards each time, but he was using other sleight-of-hand techniques to make the right cards (in this case Aces) appear at the right time.

The five envelopes routines was invented and performed by John Archer. The routine itself is based on a standard pattern known in magic as 'Just Chance' (British name) or 'Bank Nite' (American name). In essence, a number of sealed envelopes are in play, only one of which contains something of value. Members of the audience are given the chance to choose envelopes, and yet somehow they never get the one envelope that contains the valuable prize.

John's method for this trick is his own, and relatively new (he has only been performing it for about 18 months). It is a radical departure from all the 'standard' ways of performing the trick, and does allow the trick to be presented in a remarkably 'clean' way not possible with previous methods. Penn asserted that at the last minute John had somehow 'inserted' the prize (in this case £100 in cash) into the one remaining envelope, and John was able to honestly say this was not the case.

I know both Ben Earl and John Archer. I am familiar with the workings of the John Archer trick, because we worked together in a show last Summer featuring several magicians. He shared the method with us backstage. It is extremely clever. He has in fact published the method on a DVD available to the magic trade, but clearly it's one that neither Penn nor Teller had seen yet.

Ben Earl's website.

John Archer's website.

[Sam Stone]

The two closeup magicians were among the best I've seen. And the camerawork got in as close as possible (with lesser closeup magicians on TV, the camera will shoot a wider shot so it's a little harder to see exactly what they're doing with their hands). It was really good.

The entire show was good, and Penn and Teller were, as expected, gentlemen and fair. They were complimentary to all the magicians, even the one who essentially used an off-the-shelf prop, because they liked his presentation.

And I love their last trick, which I've seen several times. It starts out as a standard 'sawing a woman in half' gag, and they even explain how the prop normally works, then they take it to the next level. I won't give any details, but it's a fun trick.

[fuzzypickles]

Never heard about this show until now. I was hoping for something similar to James Randi's Million Dollar Challenge, but this one sounds pretty cool nonetheless.

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by ianzin

It was a one-off show, ...

As opposed to a "one-ahead" show"?

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

So.....what is the name of the show?

[blainer]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

So.....what is the name of the show?

The Aristocrats!

[JKilez]

John Archer fooling Penn and Teller on YouTube.

[gaffa]

I'd really like to see that. Talk about a tough audience - Teller is one of the best slight-of-hand artists alive.

[lynne-42]

Originally Posted by TriPolar

Is this show available online somewhere? Or expected to be broadcast here in the US?

Or in Australia? Sounds fantastic.

[KellyCriterion]

Would love to know how Archer did it. Any takers?

Head to 0:45 of this video to see Archer performing the same trick at a different gig (only shows the ending though).

[BigT]

Originally Posted by KellyCriterion

Would love to know how Archer did it. Any takers?

Head to 0:45 of this video to see Archer performing the same trick at a different gig (only shows the ending though).

Perhaps he keeps taking money out of the the envelopes the entire time? He was very specific saying he didn't put anything in them. And he did do a nice fake away where he almost ran away with the envelope.

(And assume you later saw that JKilez's post has the entire routine.)

[KellyCriterion]

Originally Posted by BigT

Perhaps he keeps taking money out of the the envelopes the entire time? He was very specific saying he didn't put anything in them. And he did do a nice fake away where he almost ran away with the envelope.

(And assume you later saw that JKilez's post has the entire routine.)

*EDIT*

Not a bad guess.

[BigT]

NETA: I realize I likely misunderstood KellyCriterion's intention. He probably wanted to show it a second time, to see if it was easier to catch.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by KellyCriterion

*EDIT*

Not a bad guess.

Thanks for the edit. My guess before I edited was pretty stupid.

[KellyCriterion]

Originally Posted by BigT

Thanks for the edit. My guess before I edited was pretty stupid.

Don't worry, I'll take it to the grave.

Except in the instance where someone is willing to trade it for the secret of Archer's trick!

[KellyCriterion]

I watched the full routine again (link), this time hawking Archer's every move. A couple of things stood out.

* 4:18: When Archer hands the envelope to the girl, he appears to do a quick, but strange kind of "shuffle" maneuver with his other hand.
* 6:00: When Archer realises that the host is approaching him on stage, he appears to rather hurriedly and somewhat unnaturally "race" the remaining envelope (with the cash) in to his jacket pocket.

That's all I got.

[davidm]

Watch that Youtube video starting at 5:00. There's something funny about the way he hands the envelope to the man in the audience. He's holding them with one behind the other and hands him the one in the back. As he goes to pull it out from behind, he appears to first slide it a little further behind, and he glances down almost as if he's checking his move.

His statement "I can honestly say that I do not slide anything into anything" seems overly precise to me and ignores part of Penn's proposed solution.

Here's what I think.

SPOILER:

He had an extra orange envelope, probably flap-less, that had the real money in it. He kept it hidden behind the others then, when he had one left and turned it over, he was pulling the money from the extra envelope which was aligned on the back of the real one (which of course had a zero dollar in it like the rest).

[singular1]

Is the whole show available online somewhere? We saw them in person a few weeks ago, and it was a delightful show.

[KellyCriterion]

Yes, Google:

watch penn teller fool us

Hit the first link. From that page, I chose the first link in green. Up until it started playing, the whole thing looked like a ploy to get me to click on some ads. But nope, the show loaded, and played.

[Peter Morris]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

So.....what is the name of the show?

The same as the title of the thread.

[Shark Sandwich]

Originally Posted by Peter Morris

The same as the title of the thread.

Who's on first?

[alexandra]

Originally Posted by ianzin

It was a one-off show, but there are ongoing discussions about maybe repeating it four times a year.

There were two routines that were deemed to have 'fooled' Penn & Teller.

The close-up sleight-of-hand card routine that fooled them was performed by Ben Earl. Penn asserted that the routine used 'false shuffles'. This was not strictly correct. Ben was legitimately shuffling the cards each time, but he was using other sleight-of-hand techniques to make the right cards (in this case Aces) appear at the right time.

The five envelopes routines was invented and performed by John Archer. The routine itself is based on a standard pattern known in magic as 'Just Chance' (British name) or 'Bank Nite' (American name). In essence, a number of sealed envelopes are in play, only one of which contains something of value. Members of the audience are given the chance to choose envelopes, and yet somehow they never get the one envelope that contains the valuable prize.

John's method for this trick is his own, and relatively new (he has only been performing it for about 18 months). It is a radical departure from all the 'standard' ways of performing the trick, and does allow the trick to be presented in a remarkably 'clean' way not possible with previous methods. Penn asserted that at the last minute John had somehow 'inserted' the prize (in this case £100 in cash) into the one remaining envelope, and John was able to honestly say this was not the case.

I know both Ben Earl and John Archer. I am familiar with the workings of the John Archer trick, because we worked together in a show last Summer featuring several magicians. He shared the method with us backstage. It is extremely clever. He has in fact published the method on a DVD available to the magic trade, but clearly it's one that neither Penn nor Teller had seen yet.

Ben Earl's website.

John Archer's website.

I really thought you were going to reveal how he did it. Damn you magicians and your loyalty!

[panamajack]

On Archer's trick :

SPOILER:

Why assume there's only £100 in the trick? It's entirely possible that every envelope has money in it. One thing I notice is that it really seems like he slips something in or out of each one before he gives it away. I believe him when he says he doesn't slip anything in. Taking something out wouldn't be too tough to do and there's no need to guide anyone to a response.

The tricky part, of course, is that there's 20 bills to palm using this method. Keeping them clipped together probably works (also to separate them from the $0 bill) but I admit he'd have to be pretty good to pull all of that off. Plus, that's an awful lot of money to stash just for a prop. But considering that it could fool these top magicians, an outrageous explanation like that may be the way to do it.

[panamajack]

ianzin, you could probably kill my explanation with an answer to one question, which I'm actually curious about - are the envelopes sealed in his trick? It didn't look like they were, but I would have expected them to be in a trick like that.

[davidm]

panamajack,
I think my explanation in post #27 is more feasible.

It certainly didn't look to me like the envelopes were sealed.

[JSexton]

Originally Posted by panamajack

On Archer's trick :

SPOILER:

Why assume there's only £100 in the trick? It's entirely possible that every envelope has money in it. One thing I notice is that it really seems like he slips something in or out of each one before he gives it away. I believe him when he says he doesn't slip anything in. Taking something out wouldn't be too tough to do and there's no need to guide anyone to a response.

The tricky part, of course, is that there's 20 bills to palm using this method. Keeping them clipped together probably works (also to separate them from the $0 bill) but I admit he'd have to be pretty good to pull all of that off. Plus, that's an awful lot of money to stash just for a prop. But considering that it could fool these top magicians, an outrageous explanation like that may be the way to do it.

SPOILER:

I had an idea, but it violates his statement that nothing is slipped into an envelope. I wondered if it was significant that he used 5 20-pound notes rather than a single 100-pound note. And there are 5 envelopes. So what if each envelope started with a single note, and he kept pulling them from the chosen envelopes and combining them into the final one?

[pancakes3]

i think a 6th envelope complicates things. it'd be pretty easy to spot an extra envelope (especially for P&T?), especially given the way he was fanning the original 5 in the beginning. he couldn't have taped the extra envelope(s) on because penn and teller examined the envelope afterwards.

it's certainly an INNOVATIVE trick. good for the guy. he's doing it his way, and not copying other people, which is what penn and teller wanted to see in the first place.

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by KellyCriterion

* 6:00: When Archer realises that the host is approaching him on stage, he appears to rather hurriedly and somewhat unnaturally "race" the remaining envelope (with the cash) in to his jacket pocket.

While I'm not saying you're not on to something, I interpret the hurried move as a way of merely getting rid of something that would prevent him from shaking hands with the host. Haven't you had that happen to you? Your shaking hand has something in it and someone sticks out their hand before you are ready to respond?

Of course, that may be all my part of the routine. I'm just saying that I didn't find it suspicious (and I'm a very suspicious person). I'll have to check out that video again, and I realize that it is possible that, even if I slow it down to single frames, because we never see 100% of Archer's hands & body due to the video edit, there may be some vital evidence not evident or visible, whether due to an intentional edit or accidental.

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by JSexton

SPOILER:

I had an idea, but it violates his statement that nothing is slipped into an envelope. I wondered if it was significant that he used 5 20-pound notes rather than a single 100-pound note. And there are 5 envelopes. So what if each envelope started with a single note, and he kept pulling them from the chosen envelopes and combining them into the final one?

In the link in post #21 where only the reveal is shown, he pulls out (3) 20 pound notes to make 60 pounds. Since we don't see the initial part of that version, I'd say that if he had 3 envelopes to start instead of 5, maybe you've hit on the method.

Otherwise, it's just inflation to go from 60 to 100 pounds and not important at all.

[davidm]

Originally Posted by pancakes3

i think a 6th envelope complicates things. it'd be pretty easy to spot an extra envelope (especially for P&T?), especially given the way he was fanning the original 5 in the beginning. he couldn't have taped the extra envelope(s) on because penn and teller examined the envelope afterwards.

it's certainly an INNOVATIVE trick. good for the guy. he's doing it his way, and not copying other people, which is what penn and teller wanted to see in the first place.

SPOILER:

Penn and Teller examined one of the envelopes he gave to the audience. Obviously the extra envelope wouldn't have been on that one. He kept the extra envelope hidden behind the last one; the one he was left with. At least that's my theory. I explained it in the spoiler in post #27.

[davidm]

Which is more difficult: shifting around and keeping hidden five 20 pound notes which are completely different colors from the envelopes, or one extra orange envelope?

Watch when Penn is suggesting the possibility of sliding an extra envelope into the envelope. Archer does not have a good poker face. As soon as Penn mentions an extra envelope, Archer gets a very disappointed look on his face, like he's been caught.

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by davidm

Which is more difficult: shifting around and keeping hidden five 20 pound notes which are completely different colors from the envelopes, or one extra orange envelope?

Watch when Penn is suggesting the possibility of sliding an extra envelope into the envelope. Archer does not have a good poker face. As soon as Penn mentions an extra envelope, Archer gets a very disappointed look on his face, like he's been caught.

Maybe. If so, his response (saying that's not how he did it) is more likely to get him a shot at Vegas with P&T than admitting the trick was uncovered.

[davidm]

The trick wasn't uncovered, at least not completely. He said that he did not slide anything into anything.

SPOILER:

What Penn & Teller seemed to be missing was that he didn't have to slide the extra envelope into another envelope. He just had to keep it behind one.

[JSexton]

Originally Posted by Musicat

In the link in post #21 where only the reveal is shown, he pulls out (3) 20 pound notes to make 60 pounds. Since we don't see the initial part of that version, I'd say that if he had 3 envelopes to start instead of 5, maybe you've hit on the method.

Otherwise, it's just inflation to go from 60 to 100 pounds and not important at all.

If you listen to the patter, it's got the same Something, Nothing, Mine, Yours, and Sex labels, so still 5 envelopes.

However, in that same video, when he pulls out the money, he shows both sides of the envelope. I'd think it would be really tough to be holding two envelopes there and not have it be visible. I don't think there is a sixth envelope.

[Pashnish Ewing]

I think I'm gonna have to call Bullshit on P&T here and say the whole thing is a set up, and that they were not actually fooled. Are you telling me that Teller, possibly greatest the magic historian, wouldn't put together the

SPOILER:

5 ₤20 notes/5 envelopes bit? Why not use a ₤100 note? The answer has to be because the trick can only work with five ₤20s. So many tricks must depend on this type of 'coincidence' that it would have to be obvious. Don't you wonder a little why P&T accepted Archer's half answer about not putting anything in the envelopes without following up about taking something out?

My guess is that P&T selected the guys they felt would fit in best with their Vegas show, and the rest is all scripted so that they 'win'.

Of course, this would be very hard to prove...but isn't that what makes these guys the best?

The only question for me at this point is "Is it unethecal for them to pretend that it wasn't scripted, or is it no different than 'pretending' to saw the lady in half?"

(I also should note that I had no idea how the trick worked until reading JSexton's spoiler. And now it seems obvious)

[davidm]

Two envelopes stacked together could look like one, especially if the extra one doesn't have a flap. You really don't get that good a view of the back of the envelope.

To me, at least, this seems to be the method Occam's razor would indicate. It's simpler than starting out with money in every envelope and then somehow sneaking it out as you hand out each chosen envelope. It's also simpler than somehow slipping the money into the final envelope after the others have been handed out. Also, when Penn suggested that he had slid an extra envelope into the last envelope, Archer did not deny an extra envelope. All he denied was sliding something into something else. If there was no extra envelope then why not also deny that?

Let me modify my statement about Occam's razor. Occam's razor actually points to the four audience members being shills and knowing which envelopes to pick, or at least it would if it didn't seem obvious that something like that would be banned by the rules of the competition.

Another possibility was that he got lucky. He figured that he had a 20% chance that he would be left with the envelope with the money and no way for P&T to detect any trickery because there was none. Of course, there's an 80% of failing and looking like a fool, but weigh that against a 20% chance at a trip to Vegas (from the U.K.) and at least a small possibility of becoming a star. A lot of people might go for it. Of course, that's obviously not what he did because we have at least one other tape of him doing the same trick.

[Peter Morris]

Originally Posted by Pashnish Ewing

I think I'm gonna have to call Bullshit on P&T here and say the whole thing is a set up, and that they were not actually fooled. Are you telling me that Teller, possibly greatest the magic historian, wouldn't put together the 5 ₤20 notes/5 envelopes bit? Why not use a ₤100 note? The answer has to be because the trick can only work with five ₤20s.

There's no such thing as a £100 note.

And even if there was, and he'd used one, you'd be saying "why didn't he use ten £10 notes, it must be because it can only work with a £100."

[Pashnish Ewing]

Originally Posted by Peter Morris

There's no such thing as a £100 note.

I did not know that.

And even if there was, and he'd used one, you'd be saying "why didn't he use ten £10 notes, it must be because it can only work with a £100."

Why would I say that? It wouldn't help with the trick.

[Slade]

Originally Posted by Pashnish Ewing

My guess is that P&T selected the guys they felt would fit in best with their Vegas show, and the rest is all scripted so that they 'win'.

The trouble with that theory is that Archer was actually the last magician of the bunch you'd choose on those grounds.

It's very hard to imagine his downbeat stage persona and patter - let alone that particular trick - translating to the demands of a glossy, spectacular Vegas lounge act. I mean, he's not exactly Mr Glitz and Glamour, is he?

[Rrose Selavy]

Originally Posted by JSexton

Did anyone else catch this? A neat little BBC special hosted by Jonathan Ross, it's sort of like American Idol meets Penn and Teller. A number of magicians were invited to perform for Penn and Teller, with the promise that if the duo could not identify how the trick was done, they would be flown to Vegas to perform alongside them,

No spoilers, but there were some terrific magicians on the show. Also one extremely mediocre one, but what can you do? I was hoping this was going to be a short series, but alas, it's just a one-off.

No, It wasn't a BBC special . it was produced for ITV, one of the main advert supported rival broadcasters in the UK.
It's supposedly a pilot for a possible series but viewing figures weren't that great.