Celebrating negates touchdowns: is the "Miami Rule" fair?

[DCnDC]

Story here.

Originally Posted by above linked article

The so-called "Miami Rule" was adopted last year as part of the rules committee's continued emphasis on sportsmanship. Currently, excessive celebration penalties on scoring plays are treated as dead-ball fouls. The 15 yards are marked off on the extra point, two-point conversion or kickoff. Going forward, excessive celebration flags thrown on players going in for a score will be treated like holding in the open field. The penalty will be marked off from the spot of the foul.

WTF?!

[The Universe Lashes Out]

I think it's horrible. There have already been enough questionable celebration penalties that ended up impacting the outcomes of games. People are going to emotional after scoring touchdowns, it's human nature. If someone is actually taunting or being a jackass, fine, give them a 15 yard penalty on the extra point. But to take away what actually happened on the field is ridiculous.

[Cheesesteak]

To be overly literal, the call is not "negating" a touchdown. The touchdown never happened as the foul occurs before the player scores, just like it would with other offensive fouls. If an offensive player was holding or facemasking or kicking another player before the score, the score wouldn't count. Those penalties aren't considered dead ball penalties on scoring plays, why should a pre-TD celebration penalty get special treatment?

[Gyrate]

What's the penalty for performing the Shipoopi? (Oh c'mon - someone had to say it.)

Are there any guidelines for determining what is "excessive" or is it strictly at the refs' discretion?

[Nadir]

Originally Posted by Cheesesteak

To be overly literal, the call is not "negating" a touchdown. The touchdown never happened as the foul occurs before the player scores, just like it would with other offensive fouls. If an offensive player was holding or facemasking or kicking another player before the score, the score wouldn't count. Those penalties aren't considered dead ball penalties on scoring plays, why should a pre-TD celebration penalty get special treatment?

In my best Tim-the-toolman-Taylor drawl: "Unnnnnngh?!"

[Cheesesteak]

I'll try again.... You commit a penalty on offense during a play that scores a touchdown, the "normal" process is for the touchdown to not count, and for the penalty to be assessed from the spot of the foul.

On "celebration" fouls, the old rule was that the foul, even if it occurred during the play, (before the touchdown was scored) would be assessed as if it happened after the play was over. A dead ball foul, the penalty is assessed on the extra point or the kickoff.

The new rule is that celebration fouls, when they occur during the play, are treated the same as any other offensive foul. The play is called back, the penalty assessed at the spot of the foul, have fun trying to score that touchdown again.

[astorian]

Originally Posted by Nadir

In my best Tim-the-toolman-Taylor drawl: "Unnnnnngh?!"

It did sound confusing the first time I read it... but I THINK what he's saying is, there will be a difference in how they handle different kinds of "excessive celebration."

Perhaps it means that, if a guy does an "in your face" spike or an overly choreographed dance in the end zone AFTER scoring a touchdown, it would be treated as it is now.

On the other hand, of a wide open receiver starts doing some "high stepping" or taunting of the defense starting at the ten yard line, BEFORE scoring, his penalty would be assessed at the ten, and the touchdown wouldn't count. His team would have the ball at the twenty.

Either way, I think this is bullshit. Don't get me wrong- I HATE taunting and too-elaborate celebration moves. But my philosophy is, if defenses don't like that, they should either stop the offenses from scoring (the ideal) or remember the insult and give the offending player an extra hard hit at the next opportunity.

This is one case in which players can/should police themselves.!

[Sailboat]

Originally Posted by Cheesesteak

To be overly literal, the call is not "negating" a touchdown. The touchdown never happened as the foul occurs before the player scores, just like it would with other offensive fouls. If an offensive player was holding or facemasking or kicking another player before the score, the score wouldn't count. Those penalties aren't considered dead ball penalties on scoring plays, why should a pre-TD celebration penalty get special treatment?

You may be making a semantic distinction too fine for most sports fans. In the situation you compare it to -- say, a holding call occurs in mid-play -- what typically happens is that the guys run on into the end zone while the flag is thrown, the announcers call it a TD, and then the refs announce their call, and the ball is returned to the spot of the foul for marking off the penalty. You are in theory correct that the touchdown "never happened" because the foul was first -- but that doesn't prevent the announcers, play-by-play people, analysts and water-cooler quarterbacks from all liberally using "that penalty negated the TD!" in conversation. I hear it all the time.

[Freddy the Pig]

Originally Posted by astorian

Perhaps it means that, if a guy does an "in your face" spike or an overly choreographed dance in the end zone AFTER scoring a touchdown, it would be treated as it is now.

On the other hand, of a wide open receiver starts doing some "high stepping" or taunting of the defense starting at the ten yard line, BEFORE scoring, his penalty would be assessed at the ten, and the touchdown wouldn't count. His team would have the ball at the twenty.

That's exactly correct.

Originally Posted by astorian

Either way, I think this is bullshit. Don't get me wrong- I HATE taunting and too-elaborate celebration moves. But my philosophy is, if defenses don't like that, they should either stop the offenses from scoring (the ideal) or remember the insult and give the offending player an extra hard hit at the next opportunity.

Except that that extra-hard hit would probably be penalized.

I think this is an excellent rule change. There is no excuse for strutting, preening, dancing, saluting, or doing anything else before you've even crossed the goal line. The change makes this rule consistent with other rules and puts some real bite into the penalty.

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by Freddy the Pig

That's exactly correct.

Except that that extra-hard hit would probably be penalized.

I think this is an excellent rule change. There is no excuse for strutting, preening, dancing, saluting, or doing anything else before you've even crossed the goal line. The change makes this rule consistent with other rules and puts some real bite into the penalty.

Bah. The No Fun League strikes again. The touchdown SHOULD count, the player ought to be able to celebrate any goddamn way he wants (barring things that actually delay the game, and a strut into the end zone doesn't.) It may be a bit douchebaggy, but hey, he just did something REALLY GOOD for his team. That's reason to celebrate.

If the opposing team thinks it's out of line, they get a chance on the very next possession to stop him. It's absolutely, unfailingly fair.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Ogre

The No Fun League strikes again.

This is the NCAA, not the NFL. And it seems like a dumb rule, especially since the NCAA is having trouble finding refs who can exercise any common sense rules in applying the no-celebration rules it already has. The celebrations can be obnoxious, but they're just not that big a deal. The ones after TDs tend to be worse than the ones during the score, and nobody ever does anything about the posturing and dancing after mundane tackles - and those are more annoying than the ones that come after a big play.

[kidchameleon]

Originally Posted by Ogre

Bah. The No Fun League strikes again.

Hey now, don't blame the NFL for what the NCAA is doing.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by Freddy the Pig

I think this is an excellent rule change. There is no excuse for strutting, preening, dancing, saluting, or doing anything else before you've even crossed the goal line.

Sure there is. Players often showboat a little before crossing the goal line for the express purpose of burning time off the clock in a close game where every spent second counts. Where and how do you draw the line? It's a terrible rule - football needs fewer subjective rules, not more.

[enalzi]

On first glance, I agreed with the rule. I don't mind celebrations after a touchdown, but I hate them before the touchdown. But I agree it would be two hard to enforce. I remember seeing a game once where a player broke off a huge run, but started to slow down and got tackled just before the end zone. Everyone was criticizing because it looked like he was celebrating prematurely. Then on replay it became obvious that he was just exhausted and wasn't celebrating.

[astorian]

Originally Posted by Freddy the Pig

I think this is an excellent rule change. There is no excuse for strutting, preening, dancing, saluting, or doing anything else before you've even crossed the goal line.

Well, if the place kicker knows instantly that he's nailed a game winning 50 yard field goal, can he start jumping up and down before the ball goes through the uprights? Or will he be flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct, and forced to kick again from 10 yards farther back?

Sorry, I just don't see what's so terrible about kids getting excited and celebrating after a big play.

[MilTan]

I don't think the comparison with holding penalties Cheesesteak is trying to draw really holds water. In the case of a holding penalty, or an offensive PI, it can be argued that the reason the touchdown happened was because of the penalty. Nullifying the touchdown as a consequence of the penalty seems perfectly fair. But in the case of "taunting" (and really, high stepping is considered taunting now?) the penalty in no material way affects the outcome of the play, except insofar as a penalty gets assessed. Different situation entirely.

[fjs1fs]

Originally Posted by Munch

Sure there is. Players often showboat a little before crossing the goal line for the express purpose of burning time off the clock in a close game where every spent second counts. Where and how do you draw the line? It's a terrible rule - football needs fewer subjective rules, not more.

Absolutely agree. These jackasses with these rules ought to ignore players celebrations. So long as they don't delay the game, and everyone gets off the field and the team lines up for the extra point in a timely manner, this is all bullshit that they shouldn't try to "legislate."

[ReticulatingSplines]

Where's Don Beebe when you need him?

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by ReticulatingSplines

Where's Don Beebe when you need him?

Exactly. The penalty for excessive celebration should be a defender racing up to strip the ball, or pulling a DeSean Jackson and fumbling at the 1, or getting blasted the next time you go over the middle.

[Wheelz]

If it cuts down on blantant showboating, fine, but just like the current no-celebrating rule, I don't trust the refs to enforce it consistently.

This is the part that bothers me the most:

Parry said the penalty will apply to any offensive player, not just the ball carrier, and defensive players -- for example, when someone returns an interception for a TD.

Just wait until a quarterback costs his team a touchdown because he pumps his fist or throws up his arms or something after throwing an apparent touchdown pass. It will happen.

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by Marley23

This is the NCAA, not the NFL.

Hey now, don't blame the NFL for what the NCAA is doing.

Sorry. My opinion remains the same, however.

[DCnDC]

I guess the NCAA wants the game to be played like they're all emotionless robots.

These are kids; well, young men at least, and for the vast majority of them it's probably going to be the highlight of their lives. Within reasonable limits, let them have their fun. What's next, the "mercy rule"?

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by DCnDC

I guess the NCAA wants the game to be played like they're all emotionless robots.

Well, they're paid well enough to act emotionless. As scholar athletes, their conduct should be above reproach.

[Chronos]

The appropriate "penalty" for high-stepping before you cross the goal line is that a defensive player is able to catch up to you now that you've slowed down, is able to tackle you, and maybe even causes you to fumble.

After you cross the goal line, celebration should be expected. It's only a problem when it's excessive, and the appropriate penalty for excessive celebration is that the fans think you're a douche and choose not to buy your endorsed brand of shoes.

[gazpacho]

Originally Posted by Chronos

The appropriate "penalty" for high-stepping before you cross the goal line is that a defensive player is able to catch up to you now that you've slowed down, is able to tackle you, and maybe even causes you to fumble.

After you cross the goal line, celebration should be expected. It's only a problem when it's excessive, and the appropriate penalty for excessive celebration is that the fans think you're a douche and choose not to buy your endorsed brand of shoes.

Plus embarrassing baby pictures of the offending player get shown on the jumbo tron.

[Roland Orzabal]

Originally Posted by Marley23

This is the NCAA, not the NFL. And it seems like a dumb rule, especially since the NCAA is having trouble finding refs who can exercise any common sense rules in applying the no-celebration rules it already has. The celebrations can be obnoxious, but they're just not that big a deal. The ones after TDs tend to be worse than the ones during the score, and nobody ever does anything about the posturing and dancing after mundane tackles - and those are more annoying than the ones that come after a big play.

Agreed. If the league is going to start penalizing acting like a douche, though, they should start with the stupid-ass pointing that happens every time a ball comes loose, with everyone who's not in the scrum standing around with his arm in the air like a moron. When I'm King of Football, the first guy the ref sees doing that earns automatic possession for the other team.

Same deal for the arm-waving on iffy catches, for that matter. First sign of that shit is an automatic ruling of a completion. The refs are perfectly capable of making the call without any help from the peanut gallery, and unlike the celebration penalties, these rules have the advantage of being almost entirely objective. Who's with me?