Lifeboat Ethics - Your Thoughts?

I’d like to hear some of your views on lifeboat ethics derived from the writings of Garrett Hardin; specifically as they relate to wealthier nations giving food to poorer or more blighted regions.

An over-generalization of his premise would be that no matter how good your intent, the earth has finite resources and that a population contributing excess resources to a second who’s land is unable to support them only guarantees a net loss for both.

There are other articles on the subject that point out that the U.S., for instance, although it has an abundance of food resources now, is irreplaceably depleting its fertile land every year it farms. Rather than donate any extra crops to other regions who have overproduced to the point that their land can no longer sustain them, it has been proposed that the excess would be better spent as fertilizer against further depletion.

People subscribing to this philosophy generally think that the Earth’s resources are more important than empathy toward an overpopulated region and that charity toward those that over-utilize their land only over-taxes other areas and hastens the inevitable destruction of both.

Oh dear Og. Not this hippy nonsense again. This tripe was soundly debunked in the 70s, and here we have someone is trotting out again.

It’s a load of old cobblers.

There are two crippling problems with the argument: the cause and the effect.

WRT to the cause, the biggest problem with it is that depletion of farmland is a matter of management, not productivity. There isn’t a shred of evidence that the degradation of farmland is linked in any way to productivity. There is plenty of land on Earth that has been productively farmed for millenia with no known degradation. In contrast there is plenty of land that has been farmed at very low production rates that has been severely degraded. There have been any number of studies looking at this, and there simply isn’t any convincing evidence that higher productivity results in increased degradation, nor that decreased prodcutivity results in decraesed productivity.

Good *management *leads to reduced degradation and vice versa. Badly managed unproductive land is more likely to be degraded than well managed highly productive land. We actually do have some evidence of a negative, though non-causative, correlation between productivity and degradation. At the more extreme low end of productivity land values become so low that there is no incentive to land conservation. Basically, when someone is scratching a $10/ha living out of 500, 000ha of dirt, it is not worthwhile to preserve the land. It becomes cheaper to simply write off the land than to try to rehabilitate or even preserve it. In that sense, lower productivity actual increases land degradation.

So, since there is no evidence that the amount of food produced has any impact on degradation, how does the author link the US exporting food to increased degradation? As far as the facts go, it is just as likely that reducing output will increase land degradation. With no market for the food grown, prices will decline and the land will no longer be worth preserving.

Then we move onto the premise that “the earth has finite resources”. That is pretty much nonsense. The Earth isn’t alifeboat, it’s a self-sustaining planet with a population of experts, an infinite variety of tools and a population that can feed those experts while they work. It’s nothing like a lifeboat. Any argument that tries to compare Earth to a lifeboat is bunkum from the outset.

Julian Simon debunked this idea 50 years ago, yet it’s still being trotted out regularly. The reality is that for the human species, effectively no resources are finite. As one resource become economically limiting we simply move onto an alternative. Always have, always will. This is certainly true of any resource that we use to produce food. We certainly do not need farmland to grow food, so any argument that farmland is a finite resource is misleading at the very best.

There are also problems with the concept of “irreplaceably depleting” land and lack of hard figure son what the rates of land degradation are. Suffice it to say, we certainly lack figures to make bold statements that will lead to the loss of billion of lives.

Next we move onto effect.

Sustainability is time dependent. Learn this. Repeat it. Nothing we do on this rock is sustainable. In a few billion years the sun is gonna swallow us whole. That is the maximum upper limit on sustainability. Anything we do that we claim is sustainable isn’t. It can only be sustainable for a given time period. So, what is the time period that we need to keep “contributing excess resources”? Well, all the experts agree that it’s less than 100 years. World population will reach its maximum within the next 40 years or so, and thereafter go into an exponential decline. So we aren’t going to have to keep depleting farmland forever. We only have to do it for the next 100 years at most.

So what happens if we don’t do this? Well, the one thing we do know is that population growth only ever declines when standards of living reach a certain level. The single most important criterion in that is infant mortality. In a nutshell, population growth will only decline when people know that they can have two children and they will both survive to age 40. Yet this author is proposing that we stop providing food, ensuring that most children will starve to death.

So the choices are as follows:

A) We stop giving starving children food. They die a slow and painful death, and the ones who survive will give birth to six children each, most of whom will die a slow and painful death. Lather, rinse, repeat ad nauseum. Net effect: endless human misery, but we might save some farmland though there is no evidence to support such a contention.

B) We give food to staving children. They don’t die. Within 50 years the population will realise that they do not need to have 6 children each. Within 100 years the population will have declined to sustainable levels and there will be no need to give them food. Net effect: an end to this human misery within the lifetime of some of today’s college students, but we might have to risk some farmland though there is no evidence to support such a contention.

Which of these options seems better to you?

As the US, say, how are you going to distinguish between those who have overutilized their land vs those who are victims of, say, climate change-driven drought brought on by your own profligate use of fossil fuel resources?

And does it matter to the Cold Equations if they depleted their land to send you chocolate, rubber, beef or tobacco, vs used it to feed themselves?

Things are cyclical, nations rise and fall, wealthy nations wither away. If you don’t share your excess resources, you set up the senerao that they won’t share when you or your children need them. In some ways you may feel that’s fine if it happens it happens and the better good is served. My own feeling is we are all here to help each other and be helped by each other, and if we don’t we all lose in the end.

How exactly is “I’ve got mine. Keep your hands off.” hippy nonsense?

Hippies has a lot of foolish ideas but this is pretty much the exact opposite of their ethos. Hippies would be saying “Wow, man, wouldn’t it be groovy if everybody learned to share what they had?” Then they’d all get stoned and forget to plant any crops.

But ruthless self-interest wasn’t a problem.

The idea that humans are parasites on Mother Earth, that preserving human life is less important than animals and trees and that any “unsustainable” farming technology is eeeeeeevil was, and is, very much part of the hippy ethos. It is best demonstrated today by groups such as PETA and ELF but these beliefs have been core to the Green Anarchist movement since the 1950s at least. And so has the tired old argument advanced in the OP.

Now you may wish to argue that Green Anarchists are not hippies, but they still wear kilts. Your belief that all hippy beliefs were inclusive and gentle has no basis in reality. Many hippy beliefs were violent, elitist and sadistic, just like the beliefs of any other large group. And if you still believe that ruthless self interest was not a problem among hippies, I suggest you ask Sharon Tate her opinion.

Maybe I’m misreading the OP but that doesn’t seem to be the main point it’s talking about. As I understand it, “lifeboat ethics” isn’t about preserving nature. Its argument is that areas that are self-sufficient in food production shouldn’t try to feed areas that are not. The idea is that if the food producers try to feed all the excess food consumers then everyone will run short of food. So it’s better for the food producers to cut off overpopulated areas and save themselves.

I really expected more from the SDMB, or had hoped for more. I think of this place as the last bastion of hope for honest exchange on the web and more and more often I am seeing this type of response to posts:

An immediate attack against the poster based on your fresh assumption of her belief system followed by snarky bloviation countering fictitious points you think she’d subscribe to.

I thought it would suffice to start off with “I’d like to hear some of your views on” and pepper it throughout with “People subscribing to this philosophy generally think” but I guess I need actual disclaimers.

You raise some good points in your argument, but please keep in mind that not everyone, especially new posters like me, come here to impose their beliefs on others. I will sometimes argue a counterpoint to my own for weeks just to get a fresh perspective.

The irony of putting this on the Hippies is that capitalism as being pursued today is the most efficient application of lifeboat ethics. At least as efficient and ruthless as any hippie idea of population control could ever aspire to be.

translation - if we do what my party wants, things will be great, and children will be very happy. All “experts” say so. And if we do what the opposition wants, things will be horrible, and everybody will die a long, painful death.

AFAIK even the UN experts are predicting some apocalyptic, unrealistic numbers for African population growth in the next decades. Unrealistic because the whole show will collapse into war, pandemics and famine long before it can get anywhere near that.

So if you want to reduce the number of painful deaths, better invest in Depo Provera, not in handing out food to ladies who have no business having the children they cannot feed in the first place.

Perfectly put. I’ve been really interested to see if the “For” and “Against” arguments for this crossed party lines.

The far left tends to be focused on protection of the environment as well as the sharing of resources while the far right is a bit more conservative regarding treating resources as community property, but also shares a strong sense of charity to those that have less. Aside from whether the right or left agree with that characterization it does seem to be a pretty neutrally debatable topic.

It also ignores the fact that virtually all modern famines are a result of one group of people actively blocking access to food from another group.

:eek:

Holy crap, I actually agree with Kanicbird about something …

Though I would like to add we really need to get the world up to everybody having the same standard of education so they do realize for example they don’t need to pop out 20 kids to have a chance of surviving, we have modern medicine; women have the same rights and responsibilities as men, with no more religion based laws oppressing them. Actually I would love a SFional type world government with no divisions restricting movement or working, everybody has the exact same rights and responsibilities and advantages, and a single planetary legal system.

Hardin was probably onto something. If populations continue to increase in some regions without a corresponding increase in productivity then you get more starving people, political instability and everyone can lose out.

For those who haven’t read Hardin’s article, here it is.

Plenty of farmland–enough to feed the projected population of the rest of this century, at least–lies fallow because its owners find it more profitable to grow nothing. There was a housing boom in Northern Virginia about a decade ago where huge tracts were developed on failed farmland in Loudoun County, and with the housing bust that followed shortly thereafter, the land’s not even profitable for that any more; I’m pretty sure the pattern showed up in much of the rest of the country as well. Iowa is growing corn that nobody wants and turning it into gasohol that nobody wants. Nobody’s starving because of modern plagues of locusts or anything.

The far right has a “strong sense of charity to those that have less”? :rolleyes: The same people who are known for Social Darwinism and worse? Come on.

Say WHAT now?:dubious:

Religious conservatives give generously to their churches and affiliated charities. Liberals advocate for government programs to feed the needy at home and abroad. Conservatives are generous with their own money, which I rather respect.

This is what I meant, thanks Krokodil. Without going into much detail I was proposing that there would be individuals within the same subset of the left that may have differing views based on personal tribulations regarding charity and also that subsets of the right may be divided as well. Lifeboat Ethics is pretty unique in that respect.

Some of you have a profound hatred of the right and I am aware of that. I am not here to measure that hatred, but being an Independent with both far-right and far-left beliefs, many of my postings will be aimed at audiences on both fronts. Within my examinations I try to stay as centrist as possible, but I am only human.

Watch this. God, I love Carl Sagan.