Why does it often seem like orchestra conductors are half a beat ahead of the orchestra?
Powers &8^]
Edit: It’s not because of the difference between the speed of light and the speed of sound. I mean, it could be, but I’ve noticed the effect even when the violinist’s bows and timpanist’s sticks are matched with the sound.
Moving to Cafe Society.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
I’ve noticed the same thing. It could be that the motions of the conductor are on the off-beat, so that an observer may mistake it. (say, the “real” beat is on the up-stroke of the baton, rather than the down-stroke) In any case, the players should know what conductor’s motions mean from rehearsal.
All I know for sure is not to applaud until the conductor turns around and bows, learned from childhood learning concerts in Portland, OR.
I’ll send an email to a representative for the director of the San Francisco Symphony, Michael Tilson Thomas, in hopes that we can get a direct answer.
I’ve wondered about this myself. I asked my husband who is much more of a symphony buff than I. Okay, he IS a symphony buff and I’m not. He didn’t know, and said he hadn’t noticed.
Did you see my MIL there? She used to play viola for the Portland Symphony Orchestra.
I had come to the conclusion, after watching plenty of conductors, and noting that they always seem to be a tick behind what the orchestra is playing, that what you say about the up-stroke being the down-beat is true. Either that or the musicians know their parts so well they’re not looking at the conductor after he gets them going.
You’re looking at the conductor’s downbeat, which is totally understandable. But the musicians are following his upbeat, when the baton is up where they can see it.
From having been on the opposite side of the conductor, I can say that it makes sense while you’re playing. I haven’t ever really watched their motions from the audience, though.
Is this guy doing what you describe?
Because that’s exactly what I do when I try to conduct naturally. I could understand interpreting the beats as the bottom going up. The bounce is on the beat, and that’s when then hand is going up.
The conductor is communicating time and feel to a heterogeneous group of musicians. The musicians are using their eyes to follow the notes in their parts and the movements of the conductor, and using their ears to stay in tune and stay in time with the other musicians in the orchestra.
With most orchestras, there is a gap between the conductor’s indication of the beat and the initial attack of the sound. Part of this gap is due to a blending, a compromise if you will, between the lengths of initial attacks which differ between instruments. The attack of a snare drum is much more immediate than the attack of a tuba or a tam-tam. Tuba players and percussionists playing tam-tam learn to anticipate the beat slightly. Everyone in the orchestra has to compensate for the difference between what you hear and what you see - the attack you hear from 60 feet away is not happening at the same time as the downbeat you see from 60 feet away.
At any rate, the orchestra is aiming to coordinate at the downbeat, as that is the clearest indication of time from the conductor. The result is almost always slightly later than the downbeat. Conductors learn to compensate for this, and remember the difference between orchestras. Remember, the conductor wants to move beyond mere communication of time into the realm of interpretation.
To add to the confusion, I don’t think I’ve seen anything on YouTube where the sound and the image were synchronized properly, regardless of whether a conductor was involved or not. You’ll get a much better impression from a live performance, and particularly from the stage side - the conductor is rarely giving his clearest indications to the audience.
What you see does not always sync up with what you hear mostly because of the acoustic qualities of the area where the music is being made – there is a natural delay in the sound. It’s bouncing off the walls, etc., and this takes a fraction of time. This is not going to make sense to a lot of people but apparently you see faster than you hear. 
The basses/tubas are actually playing a tiny bit ahead of the beat – if you wait until you SEE the beat to play the note you’ll be late and the tempo will drag down. (My band director was right when he said “Early is on time; on time is late.”) Somehow it all works out and what the audience experiences is how it’s supposed to be for the best possible sound and interpretation of the work.
I’ve played in bands for (sigh) two and a half decades, and downbeats are always just that – downbeats. It’s only orchestras where I see this apparent off-set.
I also once thought it was perhaps an up-beat conducting pattern, but at a recent concert (where I verified that the audio-visual delay was negligible by watching the violinists’ and bassists’ bows), it seemed even the cut-offs were half a beat off. The conductor cut the orchestra off, and half a beat later, the sound stopped.
Anyway, even if it is an illusion, it doesn’t explain the difference between bands and orchestras.
Powers &8^]
Depends on what kind of band - marching bands are used to having to coordinate precisely with the percussion section, not to mention keeping time or getting stomped on. Even concert band music has a lot more percussion than most orchestral rep up to around, say, mid-nineteenth century. (Date pulled out of my ass - tympani have been around for ages, but percussion tends to be more for colour than rhythm in a lot of music pre- 1850).
I’ve especially noticed in working with string quartets - the attack is just a little bit more ‘mushy’ in the strings than it is in the brass and woodwinds. The string players are totally used to it and think they’re being really precise, but the rest of us around them have to listen like sh!thawks so as not to drag. God help you if you’re singing something you learned with a pianist - the strings’ rhythm is much harder to follow.
Sound guy’s rule of thumb, the speed of sound means a delay of one millisecond per foot. Anything over about 30ms is a noticeable delay. Speed of light isn’t so much of an issue.
There was an explanation of how this effects an orchestra on a Radio 4 program recently. It means that the players at the back of the band have to play ahead of those at the front so that the sound is in sync when it reaches the punters. IIRC orchestras have their own (varying?) methods to compensate, a conductor make changes at rehearsal to suit a particular piece or venue.
There is also a lot of variation in style of conducting, more so with orchestral conductors (IMHO). Some seem to verger on modern dance. It is probably very different in rehearsal with them.
Here is an old orchestra joke.
Why is the viola standing outside in the rain?
Because none of them know when to come in!
(this is funny if you are a musician)
(trust me)
Sure, if you’re a violinist. I think the following is better:
How do you know there’s a flute player at your door?
You don’t. They can’t find the right key and don’t know when to make the entrance.