Not hiring teachers... bullshit!

[AWB]

I moved to this city just over 2 years ago, just as the economy was really tanking. With smaller government revenues, school districts either stopped hiring or severely curtailed hiring. So instead of getting a regular teaching job, I've been subbing for 2 full years, just starting my 3rd.

Last year, I long-term subbed for a school, which basically meant I was a regular teacher (made plans, submitted grades, etc.) but only got paid 1/2 as much. While I was there, a neighboring teacher had a student teacher assistant - Meg - who was graduating in May. Nice as she was, Meg was my direct competition for jobs (both math teachers).

Yesterday, I had a 1-day assignment at that same school. At lunch, the conversation turned to whatever-happened-to-so-and-so topics. When someone asked about Meg, her former "boss" mentioned that she got a position at Watson High School in Southside school district.

My mind immediately cried, "whatthefuck!" That school district not only let go of hundreds of teachers last year, but their web site (supposedly the only way to get your application in for a job) specifically did not accept applications for full-time teachers. So how the fuck did Meg get in?

Then I figured it out: she has 0 years experience; I have six. She's cheaper!

If this is how this occupation works, dismissing those who've earned a higher salary and hiring cheaper teachers, I think I may be abandoning this career.

Even though new teachers understandably have less classroom management skills (which will develop with experience), having a disproportional number of them is going to significantly reduce the classroom management in schools, and students learning will be impacted.

[jonesj2205]

Originally Posted by AWB

If this is how this occupation works, dismissing those who've earned a higher salary and hiring cheaper teachers, I think I may be abandoning this career.

Good luck finding a career where this never happens.

[smiling bandit]

Originally Posted by AWB

Even though new teachers understandably have less classroom management skills (which will develop with experience), having a disproportional number of them is going to significantly reduce the classroom management in schools, and students learning will be impacted.

My sympathies, but the worst part may be that this isn't actually hurting the students. It's been scientifically demonstrated that classroom experience doesn't actually improve student learning - not one bit. Some teachers are simply effective (at least for a given grade level or subject) and some aren't, and neither teaching degrees nor experience helps with that. You're either staying the same or getting worse.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Cite?

[ShelliBean]

Good luck finding a career where this never happens.

She/he could try nursing. I graduated in May. I had great grades, was the class VP, did all kinds of volunteer stuff, have references from my preceptor - and I still don't have a job. I can't tell you how many times I've been told "Sorry, we don't hire new grads."

Sorry - I'm going to go feel sorry for myself over here now. Good luck with the job search AWB.

[Sateryn76]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Cite?

I don't have access to the book now, but the studies on this were covered extensively in Malcolm Gladwell's Tipping Point.

[MsRobyn]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Cite?

There is at least one study that claims that teacher effectiveness and test scores have nothing to do with teacher experience and education. Another study says experience and education do matter. Like most education research, there are so many variables that can't be controlled for that a lot of studies are very specific to one population and can't be generalized. The end result is that districts often rely on their own experience rather than scholarly literature when it comes to decision-making.

While I really sympathize with the OP, there may be other factors he doesn't know about. For example, some districts are trying to get female teachers in math and science at the secondary level, believing that having women in front of the classroom will encourage girls to consider math and science as professional fields, and to boost girls' confidence in the classroom. It does make a difference at the college level, and it may matter at the high school level, as well.

Finally, at least in PA, teachers are paid on a scale that reflects education and length of service. Subbing counts toward experience at the interview, but it doesn't count toward length of service for salary purposes.

Sorry you got fucked over. But it may not be for the reasons you think.

[Manda JO]

From my experience in education, it's much more likely raging incompetence than any kind of focused conspiracy. What happens on the district level is really different from what happens on the campus level. If you are dealing with the central district office, that may be a huge mistake. District-level human resources may know nothing about what's going on. In my area of the country, at least, the way you get a job is to find a principal who needs a math teacher and wants to hire you. It's then their job to deal with all the various district BS to get you on board.

Is it possible she's coaching? It's a whole different set of rules when someone is a coach.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Sateryn76

I don't have access to the book now, but the studies on this were covered extensively in Malcolm Gladwell's Tipping Point.

Thanks, but I'm not inclined to accept Gladwell's word for it. It's not as though he's an expert in the field.

Originally Posted by MsRobyn

There is at least one study that claims that teacher effectiveness and test scores have nothing to do with teacher experience and education. Another study says experience and education do matter. Like most education research, there are so many variables that can't be controlled for that a lot of studies are very specific to one population and can't be generalized. The end result is that districts often rely on their own experience rather than scholarly literature when it comes to decision-making.

I'm trying to remember if my own classroom experiences were enhanced by experienced teachers, but for some reason I can't.

[simple homer]

Originally Posted by AWB

Even though new teachers understandably have less classroom management skills (which will develop with experience), having a disproportional number of them is going to significantly reduce the classroom management in schools, and students learning will be impacted.

I believe that classroom management skills are one of the most important skills that a teacher needs.
I have never observed an inexperienced teacher with quality classroom management skills.
So yes, a large number of inexperienced teachers will have a negative impact on the students, IMO.

Students can sense inexperience, and they definitely do take advantage of teachers without experience.

[treis]

Originally Posted by AWB

If this is how this occupation works, dismissing those who've earned a higher salary and hiring cheaper teachers, I think I may be abandoning this career.

I dare say you haven't earned a higher salary if there's someone able and willing to do the job for cheaper.

[brazil84]

By any chance would "Meg" happen to be young and cute? In my school district there seems to be rampant age and looks discrimination in teacher hiring and promotion. At least this is my impression from eyeballing the new teachers who are hired.

I have also noticed this in the corporate world.

[Shot From Guns]

Originally Posted by treis

I dare say you haven't earned a higher salary if there's someone able and willing to do the job for cheaper.

I am willing and able to do the job of any CEO for only $300,000 per year. I don't even need any deferred compensation! Just a flat yearly salary.

Leaving aside the issue of the ridiculousness of "willing and able," it is almost certain that it's not a question of how much the OP is willing to do the job for. Teacher's salaries are often based on a negotiated scale that takes things like experience into account.

[treis]

Originally Posted by Shot From Guns

I am willing and able to do the job of any CEO for only $300,000 per year. I don't even need any deferred compensation! Just a flat yearly salary.

I seriously doubt you are able to do the job of every CEO, or any for that matter.

Originally Posted by Shot From Guns

Leaving aside the issue of the ridiculousness of "willing and able," it is almost certain that it's not a question of how much the OP is willing to do the job for. Teacher's salaries are often based on a negotiated scale that takes things like experience into account.

The point is that the higher salary hasn't been earned

[China Guy]

AWB - sorry to hear that. My daughter had a sub in much the same position as you were in last year. He was great and was the favorite teacher my daughter and classmates had ever had. I wrote him an unsolicited recommendation letter but don't know if he got on for this year.

Best of luck

[Grapefruit]

Does your district have a union?

[Shot From Guns]

Originally Posted by treis

I seriously doubt you are able to do the job of every CEO, or any for that matter.

Well, I'm pretty sure I can at least avoid driving a company completely into the ground and/or ruining the entire economy, and people doing that are still being paid millions. So, really, I'm a bargain.

[Bryan Ekers]

Clearly we should be judging teachers by how effectively their students seize the day, once we drop the statistical outliers of the ones who commit suicide.

[Farmer Jane]

Quite possibly she had an "in" with someone - though it's usually a no-no to not post vacancies.

Super suck. I'm sorry.

[kushiel]

Originally Posted by CitizenPained

Quite possibly she had an "in" with someone - though it's usually a no-no to not post vacancies.

Super suck. I'm sorry.

What I came to say. If you know people, you get the jobs. I've got a friend who is a new teacher and is just subbing right now, but her aunt is the principal at one school and she has several older teacher friends who say they'll request her off the list. Combine this with being young enough that our former high school teachers remember her being an A+ student and she has her 'in'.

[Farmer Jane]

Originally Posted by Sateryn76

I don't have access to the book now, but the studies on this were covered extensively in Malcolm Gladwell's Tipping Point.

It seems that in the beginning, experience matters, but over time, the affect on test scores doesn't matter as much.

Not sure if it applies equally to younger and older grades, though. In the older grades, I feel like you're just screwed either way.

[pikey pete]

what, are you in Texas or something?

[Dave Hartwick]

Originally Posted by Shot From Guns

Well, I'm pretty sure I can at least avoid driving a company completely into the ground and/or ruining the entire economy, and people doing that are still being paid millions. So, really, I'm a bargain.

The news that a company was dumb enough to accept your offer would make its stock worthless overnight, and soon people would be out of work, leading to a knock-on effect leaving elderly widows eating dog food. Why do you want to hurt America? Especially its elderly widow population? They hurt no one. Please stop, Diogenes the Cynic. Oh, sorry, Shot From Guns. Same thing, really.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by AWB

Then I figured it out: she has 0 years experience; I have six. She's cheaper!

Are you sure? It's been my experience that when there's an opening in a school or a government office that the salary is listed up front, there's no negotiating. You either take it or leave it. Experience is considered, but not in any meaningful "more money" kind of way.

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

I'm trying to remember if my own classroom experiences were enhanced by experienced teachers, but for some reason I can't.

Thinking back on it, it was an extreme crapshoot for me. I moved up to high school just as many of the long-time teachers were retiring, so I got to see the final years of many of the greats and the first years of a lot of new teachers. Experience didn't usually make a difference. Sometimes the greats really were great and other times they were clearly over the hill. The same with the first years. Some were amazing teachers, while others never made it to year two.

The only consistent thing I remember is that teachers with 5-10 years experience were consistently good.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Dave Hartwick

The news that a company was dumb enough to accept your offer would make its stock worthless overnight, and soon people would be out of work, leading to a knock-on effect leaving elderly widows eating dog food.

And secretly, that's exactly what the board would want, but when Shot From Guns's toy idea becomes a worldwide craze and sends the stock price soaring... well, I don't want to spoil it, but hijinks will ensue.

[KUjun]

or it could be that Meg is a talented teacher that the administration decided that they couldn't let go and decided to find a position for because she would positively impact the lives of her students?

Student teaching/long term sub situations are great opportunities to evaluate potential new teacher hires.

[Dave Hartwick]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

And secretly, that's exactly what the board would want, but when Shot From Guns's toy idea becomes a worldwide craze and sends the stock price soaring... well, I don't want to spoil it, but hijinks will ensue.

Hm, that's a good point. If I've learned anything from reading this message board, it's that highly-paid executives are heartless bastards who would love to make an elderly widow eat dog food and then eat the widow. Kudos indeed to Shot From Guns for hypothetically foiling their dastardly plans. Plus I bet the toy turns into a robot and everybody loves robots.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by Shot From Guns

I am willing and able to do the job of any CEO for only $300,000 per year. I don't even need any deferred compensation! Just a flat yearly salary.

Leaving aside the issue of the ridiculousness of "willing and able," it is almost certain that it's not a question of how much the OP is willing to do the job for. Teacher's salaries are often based on a negotiated scale that takes things like experience into account.

How do you know you're able?

Originally Posted by Shot From Guns

Well, I'm pretty sure I can at least avoid driving a company completely into the ground and/or ruining the entire economy, and people doing that are still being paid millions. So, really, I'm a bargain.

There are plenty of companies that have not been driven into the ground nor ruined the whole economy.

[lorene]

Fewer classroom management skills.
That's not bothering anyone else?

[appleciders]

Originally Posted by CitizenPained

Quite possibly she had an "in" with someone - though it's usually a no-no to not post vacancies.

This was my reaction. From watching Mamaciders try to get a job teaching elementary school in a very nice town where the local university pumps out new teachers, vacancies probably have to be posted, even when everyone knows who's going to get hired for the job and it's basically already filled. When it's super competitive like that, your best (or only) bet may be to schmooze principals* at every place you sub.



*You should have heard her scream when the district implemented a random selection of substitutes policy when a teacher hadn't specified a sub! Fortunately, she'd made enough contacts at the time to land a good spot the next year, because using that Sub Finder program negated a lot of her networking.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by lorene

Fewer classroom management skills.
That's not bothering anyone else?

Not really. Studies have shown that classroom anarchy has little impact on students' test scores, and can even help improve secondary skills like self-defense and tying tourniquets.

[lorene]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Not really. Studies have shown that classroom anarchy has little impact on students' test scores, and can even help improve secondary skills like self-defense and tying tourniquets.

I meant as opposed to the OP's statement that new teachers have less classroom management skills.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by lorene

I meant as opposed to the OP's statement that new teachers have less classroom management skills.

Ah. In that case, I made all that up.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Bricker

There are plenty of companies that have not been driven into the ground nor ruined the whole economy.

Sure, but assuming she doesn't run her company into the ground, her performance will have been adequate and she'll have come much more cheaply.

[BlinkingDuck]

Originally Posted by AWB

I moved to this city just over 2 years ago, just as the economy was really tanking. With smaller government revenues, school districts either stopped hiring or severely curtailed hiring. So instead of getting a regular teaching job, I've been subbing for 2 full years, just starting my 3rd.

Last year, I long-term subbed for a school, which basically meant I was a regular teacher (made plans, submitted grades, etc.) but only got paid 1/2 as much. While I was there, a neighboring teacher had a student teacher assistant - Meg - who was graduating in May. Nice as she was, Meg was my direct competition for jobs (both math teachers).

Yesterday, I had a 1-day assignment at that same school. At lunch, the conversation turned to whatever-happened-to-so-and-so topics. When someone asked about Meg, her former "boss" mentioned that she got a position at Watson High School in Southside school district.

My mind immediately cried, "whatthefuck!" That school district not only let go of hundreds of teachers last year, but their web site (supposedly the only way to get your application in for a job) specifically did not accept applications for full-time teachers. So how the fuck did Meg get in?

Then I figured it out: she has 0 years experience; I have six. She's cheaper!

If this is how this occupation works, dismissing those who've earned a higher salary and hiring cheaper teachers, I think I may be abandoning this career.

Even though new teachers understandably have less classroom management skills (which will develop with experience), having a disproportional number of them is going to significantly reduce the classroom management in schools, and students learning will be impacted.

Hate to break it to you bud...but yes...that is the way it is. Do a search on my old threads and you will see me talk about this quite a bit I used to teach but left primarily for 2 reasons: Lack of pay and lack of respect (not from students but from society at large). Do a search to hear me talk about this in more detail if you like (and I taught math as well )

Actually, you are not quite correct. A teacher peaks in their 3rd year..maybe 4th. A new teacher is inherently risky in that they may suck. Someone teaching 3-5 years is still reasonably cheap and has been vetted...so you should be sitting ok. Once you get beyond 10 you are screwed unless you under-the-table agree to a lower salary (which happens).

So...why in the hell would you choose a career in which you start out as a low salary, your salary doesn't increase much through your career and once you start becoming a veteran you cannot justify even the little bit more you get paid over a junior teacher?

GET THE FUCK OUT! GET THE FUCK OUT NOW!

I taught for 6 years and it opened my eyes. Yes, many industries you have to compete with younger, cheaper workers but many times you CAN because they can see your worth over the young whippersnapper...and many times YOU are the person making the hiring decision!

GET THE FUCK OUT! GET THE FUCK OUT NOW!

Of course, the economy sucks so you might not be able to...but try...try try try.

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by lorene

Fewer classroom management skills.
That's not bothering anyone else?

No, the distinction between less and fewer is a ridiculously arbitrary distinction that serves no real purpose. The 10 items or less signs in grocery stores have not ignited mass chaos nor will they and your understanding of the sign is not made less by the use of the word less when you would use fewer. Feel free to utilize such a distinction in your own writing but don't bother those of us who dispense with such 18th century nonsense.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Apparently the inner stickler prefers to keep to itself.

[Ludovic]

In addition, the skills might be individually quantifiable, so even if there were a difference between less and fewer, less might have been more appropriate to begin with.

It's not as if there are a finite number of "classroom skills" that you either have or do not have. Instead, it is probably easier to think of "classroom skills" as a real number, where you might possess some of all of the common skills, but not as much so as more experienced teachers.

Using "fewer" slightly alters the meaning. If you say "less" it implies that you have some skill in, for instance, knowledge transfer, classroom management, and interaction with parents, but not as much as more experienced teachers. If you say "fewer" it means that you might be fully qualified in interaction with parents and knowledge transfer, but you can't manage your classroom at all because you simply don't have that skill.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by BlinkingDuck

So...why in the hell would you choose a career in which you start out as a low salary, your salary doesn't increase much through your career and once you start becoming a veteran you cannot justify even the little bit more you get paid over a junior teacher?

GET THE FUCK OUT! GET THE FUCK OUT NOW!

Because, for some people, making money is not their priority in life. In fact, the fact that it was yours indicates that it was a good thing you got out.

I don't know a single teacher who does it for the money.

[Shot From Guns]

Originally Posted by Dave Hartwick

Please stop, Diogenes the Cynic. Oh, sorry, Shot From Guns. Same thing, really.

I honestly have no idea what kind of equivalence you're trying to draw between Dio and me here. Diagram, please.

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

And secretly, that's exactly what the board would want, but when Shot From Guns's toy idea becomes a worldwide craze and sends the stock price soaring... well, I don't want to spoil it, but hijinks will ensue.

You know... for kids.

Originally Posted by Bricker

There are plenty of companies that have not been driven into the ground nor ruined the whole economy.

Yes, but go back and read what I wrote. The point is that even the CEOs who do that are paid much, much more than I'm asking. So, worst-case is my company goes bankrupt and destroys the economy, and even then I'm a bargain!

The point that you guys apparently missed here is, "What the fuck does 'able' even mean?" Certainly, the brand spankin' new teacher has the on-paper qualifications to fill the role. But that doesn't mean that she would fill it as well as the more-experienced OP, or that his presumably higher salary wouldn't be justified by an equivalent increase in the quality of teaching over the younger teacher.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by AWB

My mind immediately cried, "whatthefuck!" That school district not only let go of hundreds of teachers last year, but their web site (supposedly the only way to get your application in for a job) specifically did not accept applications for full-time teachers. So how the fuck did Meg get in?

Then I figured it out: she has 0 years experience; I have six. She's cheaper!

If this is how this occupation works, dismissing those who've earned a higher salary and hiring cheaper teachers, I think I may be abandoning this career.

Even though new teachers understandably have less classroom management skills (which will develop with experience), having a disproportional number of them is going to significantly reduce the classroom management in schools, and students learning will be impacted.

She might not be in for long. According to my teacher friends, there are no pre-tenure teachers left, they've all been laid off. This person may have been chosen because she will have more time in which she can get canned easily if the budget gets cut again, a good bet. However I am surprised that they didn't offer one of the laid off teachers a job. A friend of ours, who is a sub, is hurting because the sub jobs are now going to laid-off teachers.

[treis]

Originally Posted by Shot From Guns

The point that you guys apparently missed here is, "What the fuck does 'able' even mean?" Certainly, the brand spankin' new teacher has the on-paper qualifications to fill the role. But that doesn't mean that she would fill it as well as the more-experienced OP, or that his presumably higher salary wouldn't be justified by an equivalent increase in the quality of teaching over the younger teacher.

Maybe, maybe not. We have the (assumed) judgement of the principal indicating that he isn't worth the extra money.

Originally Posted by BigT

I don't know a single teacher who does it for the money.

I've met a lot who do it for the security, time off, and decent money. No, no one is getting rich as a teacher, but typically you get a good salary, a hell of a pension, and a lot of extra time off.

[Shot From Guns]

A lot of extra time off... during which you work a second and possibly third job.

[treis]

Originally Posted by Shot From Guns

A lot of extra time off... during which you work a second and possibly third job.

If you want. Or you go backpacking through Central America.

[MsRobyn]

Originally Posted by treis

If you want. Or you go backpacking through Central America.

Or you work a second or third job, or you work on your master's degree and/or go to professional conferences that might be in a fine resort city like Indianapolis. Ain't nobody going backpacking anywhere.

[treis]

Originally Posted by MsRobyn

Or you work a second or third job, or you work on your master's degree and/or go to professional conferences that might be in a fine resort city like Indianapolis. Ain't nobody going backpacking anywhere.

Oh dear. I better see my psychiatrist because the dozen or so teachers I've met backpacking and the cousin I have must be figments of my imagination.

[BlinkingDuck]

Originally Posted by BigT

Because, for some people, making money is not their priority in life. In fact, the fact that it was yours indicates that it was a good thing you got out.

I don't know a single teacher who does it for the money.

That's part of the problem. People that like to actually make some money tend to be good at what they do as well.

[Manda JO]

I don't teach for the money, but I wouldn't do it if it paid 20% less. Teacher pay varies enormously by state. There are certainly states I wouldn't teach in because their salary/cost-of-living ratio is just unacceptable.

If you haven't found a job as a math teacher after five years, I'd really consider moving. Provided you are willing to work in rural or urban schools, there are plenty of jobs out there. If you absolutely cannot move, I do not have any great suggestions.

[Caveat lector]

Originally Posted by BlinkingDuck

That's part of the problem. People that like to actually make some money tend to be good at what they do as well.

And I find that people who have a great passion for what they do also tend to be good at what they do. Of course some of them suck, but then so do some people who want money.

[MsRobyn]

Originally Posted by treis

Oh dear. I better see my psychiatrist because the dozen or so teachers I've met backpacking and the cousin I have must be figments of my imagination.

This actually is a YMMV. Most of the teachers I know aren't at a point in their careers where they've got the time to spend traveling and such; they're still working on advanced degrees.