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  #1  
Old 09-06-2011, 12:44 PM
silk1976 silk1976 is offline
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Propane or gasoline generator for emergency purposes

We're considering getting a generator for emergency purposes to power our house in the event of a long term power outage. Irene knocked out our power for 3.5 days, and fortunately we were able to borrow a generator - but we're considering getting one for future issues. Also fortunate is that we didn't need heat during this time around - the major concern is losing power during the winter and having pipes freeze and such. However one of the questions is whether to go with propane or gasoline.

I realize that in the end, it makes little real difference for our purposes due to the infrequency of needing to use a generator, but I'm curious as to the masses opinions, thoughts and pro's and con's of each.

Our situation:
- We have natural gas heat
- Our hot water heater has a pilot light (so no electronic ignition)
- Our stove is gas
- Our drier is gas
- Town water and sewer
- Our primary needs for electricity would then be: furnace (in the winter time), lights, fridge, freezer, TV, computer(s)

Our electricity has historically (for the past 4 years we've been in the house, anyway) been very stable. A few times we'd come home from work to clocks that have been reset, so there was a momentary outage during the day. We've been through numerous blizzards over the past few years in our area (eastern MA) without a hiccup, and we rarely get hurricane force winds up here. None of the ice storms that have occured further north have reached us.

So all in all, I'm still on the fence about a generator in the first place because the only situation I can foresee that results in a wide-area outage (which could subsequently result in long repair times) in the winter time is an ice storm. Just about anything else is fairly localized or would occur during a time of year when freezing pipes are not an issue - and while power may be lost, it likely wouldn't be lost for long enough to be concerned with. All this considered makes me think that getting a generator is insurance for a once every 15-20 years event.

Arguments for going with gasoline:
- There are more gas stations than propane stations
- Cheaper generator
- More generator options available

Arguments for going with propane:
- Quieter
- No need to worry about fouled up lines, gas, etc.
- Cheaper to run (and I'm of the belief that propane costs will be less volatile than gasoline in the future)

So I'm just curious what other thoughts people may have that should be considered, because right now the plusses for propane outweigh its negatives to me.
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  #2  
Old 09-06-2011, 01:03 PM
Kevbo Kevbo is offline
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A full propane tank will run the generator if you ever need it. Gasoline will go stale unless you pour it into your car's tank and replace it now and then. Especially in cold weather, old gas can make starting tough. It may be safer to store a tank of propane than a gas can. (or not, depending) OTOH, you can siphon "fresh" gas out of your car if you ever need to run the genny, and you can just steal some more from the neighbor's car if that isn't enough. (I kid!) Propane makes for very easy starting, and the exhaust is far safer as well, still not OK to run indoors though. Dual fuel units are available.
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  #3  
Old 09-06-2011, 01:19 PM
Nars Glinley Nars Glinley is offline
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I assume you're thinking about a portable generator and not a whole house one. In any case, since you already have natural gas, why not use it?
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  #4  
Old 09-06-2011, 01:31 PM
silk1976 silk1976 is offline
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Yes this is a portable generator - currently thinking about 4kW size. However I'd ultimately figure on using either a transfer switch or interlock kit to power up the entire existing panel so I don't have to run cords all over the place. Besides, the furnace is directly powered from its particular circuit - it doesn't have a plug that I could use an extension cord with.

Is there a way to connect up a portable generator to a fixed gas line? It'd be real nice to use natural gas, but from what I saw, the expense of that is way too high to justify for my purposes because the generator installation would be fixed.
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  #5  
Old 09-06-2011, 01:36 PM
Nars Glinley Nars Glinley is offline
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They make tri-fuel portable generators like this so there must be a way to hook them up but I have no idea how to do it.
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  #6  
Old 09-06-2011, 01:36 PM
silk1976 silk1976 is offline
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But I suppose looking into a conversion kit to run a propane gen on natural gas is an option...
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:00 PM
LSLGuy LSLGuy is offline
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You can get quick connect sockets which can be plumbed into a fixed natural gas line with a shutoff cock. Then a flexible hose connects between the socket & the generator. They're commonly used for portable gas barbeques & space heaters. You're talking just a few bucks for parts, plus labor to install at a convenient spot. The expensive part would be if your existing gas line runs nowhere near where you want to set up the portable generator. Then you'd be paying for many feet of pipe & perhaps trenching to bury it, etc.


Natural gas & propane are very different fuels. Not to say manufactuerers can't readily make a machine to burn both (as the link above points out), but don't assume converting between fuels is a DIY project for any generator you happen to buy.

Last edited by LSLGuy; 09-06-2011 at 03:00 PM..
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:14 PM
silk1976 silk1976 is offline
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A conversion kit should take care of the differences between propane and NG by altering the carb, and thus altering the fuel/air mixture appropriate for the new fuel.

The only other issue is that a given generator produces less power on propane than gasoline due to the reduced energy density. Going to NG, since it is predominantly methane, reduces that further. So it'd require a bigger generator to get the same wattage of power out of it.
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  #9  
Old 09-06-2011, 03:31 PM
Goggles03 Goggles03 is offline
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You really have to ask yourself: is the cost of a generator, its mountings, and its connections (both fuel and electricity) worth it? Unless someone in your house is on a ventilator, it sounds like the only thing you're trying to prevent is inconvenience (loss of Xbox, etc). In the winter, you can always put food out in the garage/porch to keep it cold. Heat might be a problem if you don't have a fireplace. Even then, power has to be out for several days to get a house cold enough to freeze piping [and you can always leave the taps trickling to prevent this].

Is insuring against these problems worth the cost, especially considering the rarity of any issues?
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:30 PM
GaryM GaryM is offline
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I have a fixed in place 15KW propane fueled generator. It can run most of the house including heat and AC. It's air cooled and runs at 3600 RPM, so it's not too quiet. If there's a really bad storm and I can't get my tank refilled, I'm SOL. That's not an issue with natural gas, but living in the country it wasn't an issue.

As LSLGuy mentioned, there are quick disconnects for the gas line that solves the portability issues, but you will need a manual transfer switch. You want to be sure not to back feed the power grid and kill a linemen working on the wires.

Of course if it runs on natural gas you eliminate the possibility of using it further afield unless you have a really long connection hose.
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  #11  
Old 09-06-2011, 09:41 PM
elfkin477 elfkin477 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggles03 View Post
You really have to ask yourself: is the cost of a generator, its mountings, and its connections (both fuel and electricity) worth it? Unless someone in your house is on a ventilator, it sounds like the only thing you're trying to prevent is inconvenience (loss of Xbox, etc). In the winter, you can always put food out in the garage/porch to keep it cold. Heat might be a problem if you don't have a fireplace. Even then, power has to be out for several days to get a house cold enough to freeze piping [and you can always leave the taps trickling to prevent this].

Is insuring against these problems worth the cost, especially considering the rarity of any issues?
It's definitely worth it. What's the longest you've been without power yourself? We once lost power for five days before we got a generator. Even with the fireplace going 20 hours a day it was a struggle to keep the house above 50F. It was absolutely miserable. And this was December, I can't even imagine how cold it would have been in February.

Propane generators are awesome. Ours, 3500 watts, takes the same tank as the grill, and it costs ~$16 to have it filled (pro tip: U-Haul offers filling services even if no where else in the area does) and it runs for 12-16 hours before it needs to have the tank swapped out for the second one.
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  #12  
Old 09-06-2011, 10:11 PM
silk1976 silk1976 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggles03 View Post
You really have to ask yourself: is the cost of a generator, its mountings, and its connections (both fuel and electricity) worth it? Unless someone in your house is on a ventilator, it sounds like the only thing you're trying to prevent is inconvenience (loss of Xbox, etc). In the winter, you can always put food out in the garage/porch to keep it cold. Heat might be a problem if you don't have a fireplace. Even then, power has to be out for several days to get a house cold enough to freeze piping [and you can always leave the taps trickling to prevent this].

Is insuring against these problems worth the cost, especially considering the rarity of any issues?
This is part of why I'm still on the fence on the whole thing - because it is a rare event for power to go out for more than a few hours at a time.

However, it was only a few years ago that my sister and her family, less than 50 miles north, lost power for over a week due to an ice storm. They had pipes freeze, they had to live in a hotel, board their dogs, eat out all the time - very expensive and not just an inconvenience. It cost them thousands - so a generator would have paid for itself immediately, and thats just the monetary value, nevermind the convenience factor.

A fireplace is only good for about a 10' radius from said fireplace. Other than that, it makes the house colder. We use the fireplace in the wintertime on occasion, but only for effect and ambiance - and everytime we do the rest of the house drops a good 5-10 degrees.

But honestly, yes - the biggest thing is convenience, except that rare once in 20 years event where it turns out to allow us to continue living in the house when we otherwise would not be able to. But when you think of the overall cost (about $1500) over that period of time (20 years) - you're talking about <$10/month for that insurance. Depending on your view of the value of insurance, that is either a steal, a decent value, or not worth it.

Elfkin477 - you sound like you have the generator I've been looking at. My main concern with propane is the fewer filling stations as opposed to gas. I had a coworker adamently defend using gasoline because he apparently had it on personal experience that power would be restored to a gas station before it gets restored to the pumping unit that propane refilling stations (BJ's, hardware stores, etc) use. However I know there is a Suburban Propane facility near here - one of the ones that fills up the big trucks with propane for delivery to residential and commercial facilities. I'd have to imagine they would have decently high priority, since some people depend on propane for heat.
Anyway - long winded way of asking whether you've found any issues at all with refilling the 20# tanks during a power outage.
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  #13  
Old 09-06-2011, 10:30 PM
kanicbird kanicbird is offline
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I looked into the options a while back and went with gasoline. It was far cheaper and easier. The second choice was buying a gasoline generator and buying a conversion kit to get it to run, at reduced capacity, on propane.

I use gasoline also for the lawn mower and snowblower, so while not always fresh, the gas is not that old either.

Over the past maybe 8 years I've had no problem starting, it always started easily. It did start to run a bit rough with next to no load on it perhaps a year ago. I just plugged a space heater in (which adds some load) it runs fine, maybe some carb cleaner would help.
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  #14  
Old 09-06-2011, 10:57 PM
kanicbird kanicbird is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggles03 View Post
You really have to ask yourself: is the cost of a generator, its mountings, and its connections (both fuel and electricity) worth it? Unless someone in your house is on a ventilator, it sounds like the only thing you're trying to prevent is inconvenience (loss of Xbox, etc). In the winter, you can always put food out in the garage/porch to keep it cold. Heat might be a problem if you don't have a fireplace. Even then, power has to be out for several days to get a house cold enough to freeze piping [and you can always leave the taps trickling to prevent this].

Is insuring against these problems worth the cost, especially considering the rarity of any issues?
You have to remember that a generator is a long term investment, you can expect to have it many years. So even though you may use it infrequently, the times when you use it will add up over time. During that time it is likely that there will be a major power outage or more, where it will really come in handy.

It is also peace of mind, when the power goes out in below freezing temperatures, if the generator is running you don't have to worry this also applies to not worrying about food spoiling.

It also means that you can continue your life, a blackout won't stop you.

Just a very quick and dirty calculation having the generator about 8 years, looking at a log book and estimating the total cost of it including fuel, oil, and the wiring is $1200, which gave me apx 100 hrs of use or $12/h.

So overall if you had a choice of sitting in the dark for a hour or paying $12 to have your power on for a hour, you have to decide because that it the real cost of the generator over time (and also potentially saving you money by saving food and pipes from freezing).

Also I just notices that fuel cost was actually minimal, for the above it was I estimated $300 out of the $1200 for gasoline, so it may not make much sense to chose propane based on fuel cost.
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  #15  
Old 09-06-2011, 11:49 PM
elfkin477 elfkin477 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silk1976 View Post
Anyway - long winded way of asking whether you've found any issues at all with refilling the 20# tanks during a power outage.
Until last week, no problems at all. However, the road that the place that fills them in town was closed for a day due to fallen trees/powerlines, so we had to fill them at a place 10 miles away rather than 4.

Do you have a hardware store in town? Give them a call and see if they fill them - I had no idea that some do until we needed to have it done. We called around to see how many places in the area/on the way to places we work filled them before deciding, and I recommend that you do too. You might be able to use online yellow pages to help your investigation, and U-Haul has a propane refill locator here.


If you think it will be an issue, I'd think about buying a second propane tank like we have, just in case you need to run the generator for 24 hours before you can fill up again.
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  #16  
Old 09-07-2011, 01:32 AM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is online now
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Are you referring to a small propane tank like barbecue grills use? The round ones? I didn't realize they'd run a generator 12 hours. With gas you have to refill the tank long before that. Plus gas cans are so much heavier to mess with.

This thread got my interest. Keep talking. I've been thinking about a generator for years. My issue was always storing the gas and using it before it went stale.

Does propane go stale? Or will it last years in a tank?
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  #17  
Old 09-07-2011, 02:47 AM
elfkin477 elfkin477 is offline
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
Are you referring to a small propane tank like barbecue grills use? The round ones? I didn't realize they'd run a generator 12 hours. With gas you have to refill the tank long before that. Plus gas cans are so much heavier to mess with.

This thread got my interest. Keep talking. I've been thinking about a generator for years. My issue was always storing the gas and using it before it went stale.

Does propane go stale? Or will it last years in a tank?
As I said, it takes the same tank as the grill, which I believe is 20lbs. You know, roundish, cream-colored. And propane does not go bad. It can be stored for years.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:55 AM
Count Blucher Count Blucher is online now
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I guess it goes w/o saying that you should get all the inspections you needs from your city & utility after having it installed by a licensed professional. Should something go wrong, it might mitigate some liability & insurance companies might have issues covering you if you don't.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:35 AM
black rabbit black rabbit is offline
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Three years ago, my area lost power for four days thanks to the remnants of Hurricane Ike. My employer had a ~15kW unit fed by two 100-lb propane tanks, which was sufficient to run us for about 4 days.

On day two of the outage, I called our propane supplier to inquire about getting the tanks topped up in the event that we went without power for a third day. I got an answering service, which had no idea how to get in touch with anybody at the propane company. I got more than a little nervous.

Later that evening, I got a call from the company president. As it turns out, their phone system was not on any kind of battery or genny backup. Pretty ironic for a fuel supplier.

Luckily, we got power back at the office that evening. When we moved offices a couple of years later, we switched to a 20kW natural gas-fed Generac. I'd rather not depend on an external supplier in that kind of situation.
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:30 AM
LSLGuy LSLGuy is offline
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I've been musing about a backup generator for some time as well.

Natural gas seems the no-brainer solution where we are: generic suburbia. But ... I've always wondered whether there'd be any failures of the natural gas supply in an extended power failure. The gas utility's system relies on electrics for control, monitoring, and pumping. I'd bet they have backup power sources for much of it, but for how long?

It'd be a bitch to invest in a natural gas generator and then find your public gas supply fails on day 3 of a 5-day power outage in Feb.

Anybody have any real info on this point?

Last edited by LSLGuy; 09-07-2011 at 11:31 AM.. Reason: Out! Out Foul typos!
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  #21  
Old 09-07-2011, 01:01 PM
Kevbo Kevbo is offline
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One more point I forgot to mention is that running a spark ignition engine on either propane or natural gas allows greatly reduced wear. Gasoline enters the cylinder as a liquid (some of it anyway) which washes most of the oil film off the cylinder walls, and some of it ends up in the crankcase where it adulterates the oil. Especially true when starting up and choked. Gaseous fuels do not do this, and the oil doesn't break down as quickly, and stays clean for much longer than with gasoline operation. Probably not an issue on a rarely used machine though.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:17 PM
rbroome rbroome is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silk1976 View Post
However one of the questions is whether to go with propane or gasoline.
To me, and to people around here who take this issue seriously, it isn't a question.
I am not an expert, but I know several people who have been providing themselves with emergency/backup/off the grid (as in camps) power for decades. Propane/natural gas is the only realistic option.
The reason is simple: reliability. A gasoline powered generator, when infrequently used, gums up. A propane unit stays much cleaner and much more likely to start when you need it. Remember you will be running the unit every month for testing. And hopefully you won't need it very often. Backup power units are expensive and take work-simply because they run so infrequently that the maintenance is difficult to keep up with.
Now, if you are going to get a generator for a single operation-say a hurricane is coming, then gasoline is a cheap option and one I would go with. But realize that it has a relatively high failure probability and high maintenance costs later on.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:48 PM
silk1976 silk1976 is offline
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It seems like the responses here mirror what I've found others to say in real life. That is, it seems the more survivalist types say go with propane or natural gas, due to the relatively lower maintenance, lack of lines fouling, bad gas, cost of fuel, etc. The exception is a coworker who was pretty insistent on gas, because (as I mentioned earlier) he claimed to have personal experience with a propane filling station being down due to lack of power, whereas gas stations are more likely (or there is more likely a chance to find one) with power. The way I figure it - it's a crap-shoot. It all depends on where the tree(s) fall.

On the other hand, when you want quick and simple and more limited use, gasoline is preferred because the options available are greater, and using gasoline is just a default fuel source for many people.

Aceplace57 - I didn't realize those grill tanks power a generator for that long, either. The genny I've been looking at says it'll run at 50% load for 10 hours on a 20# tank. It was the realization that those tanks can be used that grabbed my interest in propane.

Kevbo - I had heard that NG or propane induces less wear on the internals of an engine, but never really looked into why. Your explanation makes perfect sense - thanks for providing that information.

LSLguy - regarding failure of NG - I figure if that fails where I live (eastern MA), then it has probably failed due to an earthquake, and if an earthquake came through here that broke the line(s), then we probably have bigger issues. Of course there is the freak accident of a NG line being broken during a roadwork or whatever - but unless they are digging up the sewer line in the middle of an ice storm or blizzard or hurricane, I'm not concerned about that. But you do raise the point about their ability to pump the gas in an extended outtage. Not knowing exactly how the gas makes it to my house (I know it likely comes from the TN gas line, and there are compressor stations along the way - but I dont know where the closest one is, nor do I know how reduced the flow of NG would be if it were unpowered), there is potentially some vulnerability there. However, maybe those compressors are run via electricity produced from tapping directly into the line itself? In other words, since NG is very widely used for heat in this region, maybe the failsafes for delivering the gas are such that each pumping station is essentially fully self sufficient.

The thing that eases my mind on propane, and its availability is the number of places I pass and that are near me that refill propane:
- hardware store on the way to work
- blue rhino dropoffs at a few gas stations
- BJ's
- propane processing plant the next town over for commercial/residential propane deliveries
- neighbors. I figure in an extended outtage, they'll be looking for gas, and will have less issue letting me borrow their grill tank

Last edited by silk1976; 09-07-2011 at 02:51 PM..
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  #24  
Old 09-07-2011, 03:41 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is online now
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One other concern I had is rain.

I plan on storing my generator in my shed. Then taking it out to use. Do I need to rig a cover over it? Would an occasional rain soaking hurt it?

I never mow my lawn in the rain. So this issue hasn't come up before.

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-07-2011 at 03:44 PM..
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  #25  
Old 09-07-2011, 04:00 PM
smithsb smithsb is offline
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As stated above, gasoline goes bad unless treated or exchanged often. Odds are, when you really need it, it will be gummed up and "no start". Plenty of gas stations??? If you have no power, why do you think they would have power to run the pumps/register?

Go with the propane or NG option. Have spare tanks or a single larger one.

Personally, a 15/20 year event; don't bother. Put that $10/$15 a month into your Xmas fund. Talk your neighbors into buying a whole house unit; concentrate on insulating your pipes.
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:22 AM
Dag Otto Dag Otto is offline
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Regarding the availability of NG, last February we had a freeze event the the El Paso area that took out most of the local power generation capacity. By most standards it wasn't unusual (4 days straight below freezing) but for the area it really was unprecedented. Power plants were designed to withstand peak loads on 115 degree days, not 15 degree days. Anyway, the natural gas supply in the region experienced low pressures due to the lack of electricity for pumping operations. It didn't happen, but we almost lost natural gas service that week. Perhaps it was an anomaly here, but if the gas utility relies on the power utility, then it's not a secure source.

LP is expensive as hell, but a 250 or 500 gallon tank isn't an unreasonable thing to have around if you use LP.
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Old 09-10-2011, 03:30 PM
Napier Napier is offline
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Originally Posted by Goggles03 View Post
You really have to ask yourself: is the cost of a generator, its mountings, and its connections (both fuel and electricity) worth it? Unless someone in your house is on a ventilator, it sounds like the only thing you're trying to prevent is inconvenience (loss of Xbox, etc). In the winter, you can always put food out in the garage/porch to keep it cold. Heat might be a problem if you don't have a fireplace. Even then, power has to be out for several days to get a house cold enough to freeze piping [and you can always leave the taps trickling to prevent this].

Is insuring against these problems worth the cost, especially considering the rarity of any issues?
Can you really mean this?

Many of us use electricity to get water from wells. Having no water or refrigeration makes living a great deal more work. Plus, we had to shell out a couple hundred dollars to replace food we lost during Irene. During Isabelle, we had no power for 11 days. I am not sure how long it would take our pipes to freeze, but could imagine several bad days of ice storm could push us over that edge.

It's hardly about X-boxes (though I admit I am a little hazy about exactly what one does).
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Old 09-10-2011, 05:40 PM
N9IWP N9IWP is offline
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No love for diesel? IIRC Diesel is much more stable than gasoline. Of course many diesel generators are for bigger buidings than houses.

Brian
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  #29  
Old 09-10-2011, 10:22 PM
ducati ducati is offline
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I have a 14kw natural gas unit that powers the whole house, and the neighbors if they have a long extension cord!

NG is the lowest maintenance, easy-starting, don't-have-to-go-out-in-the-rain/snow/storm/cold to re-fuel.

That said, just in case the NG pipeline dries up after a few days, I can easily switch it to LP, and have a big LP tank in the shed that will last weeks.

If aliens take my LP tank, or it's empty, I have a portable gas generator that I can plug into the transfer switch. I just pull the NG plug, and hook up the gas plug.

I have instructions written, laminated, and taped to the transfer switch so even a woman my wife or kids can do it if I'm not there.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:42 AM
TurboNuke TurboNuke is offline
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Natural gas is the way to go if money is no object.

I just bought an 800w two cycle generator from Harbor Freight. Yes 800w is very small but I only need it to run the heat in the winter time. Plus our power has been very reliable.

Why get a generator if our power is very reliable? Because, it was only $90.

I couldn't see spending $300-500 for a generator we'll probably never use but for $90 I'll take a chance.
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:16 AM
Muffin Muffin is online now
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Originally Posted by Count Blucher View Post
I guess it goes w/o saying that you should get all the inspections you needs from your city & utility after having it installed by a licensed professional. Should something go wrong, it might mitigate some liability & insurance companies might have issues covering you if you don't.
Word.

Note that if you do not disconnect the main prior to connecting and running your generaator, the poor bastard up the pole on the steet fixing the line will be zapped if he or she forgets to check if the supposed dead wire is live due to your sending juice into it via your generator.
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Old 09-11-2011, 11:50 AM
Daylate Daylate is offline
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Wat back in 1990, after a big windstorm out here in Seattle (known ever after as the "Innagural day Storm), our power was out for three days. I went out and bought a 3300 watt Honda soundproof (sort of) generator, and had an electrician hard wire it up to the house via a transfer switch. The generator runs on gasoline, and is started by a remote switch in the house.

One of the best things I've ever done. The power doesn't go out very much now, maybe once a year, but when it does go out the generator is definitely worth it. And it makes you a hero to your wife, too (one of the real fringe benefits). The 3300 watts has proven to be plenty for normal use - just don't try to run the microwave, the toaster, and the electric coffeemaker at the same time. Doesn't do any damage, but you've got to go start the generator again after turning off the loads. And it is great when the power goes out at night and you are the ONLY house in sight with lights burning merrily and the TV playing.

Running it on gasoline hasn't been a problem, but I do start the generator and run it for a half hour or so every three weeks to a month. Propane or NG would be more convenient, but not enough, at lest in my situation, to warrant the extra cost. And I would advise being very careful with having a propane conversion installed on a gas generator. I have direct knowledge of several instances where this has not resulted in a satisfactory situation. In one case, a neighbor of mine had this done, and had much trouble starting the generator, even after several trips to the repair shop. The supplier stalled him off for the year that the warranty was in effect, and he (the owner) ended up buying another generator and throwing away the old one. The new gen. is gasoline, and gives no trouble. Not saying that a propane conversion won't necessarily work, but make sure that the supplier stands behind it.
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Old 09-11-2011, 11:53 AM
Daylate Daylate is offline
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Sorry, I meant innaugural. I HATE (obviously) proofreading!
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