Ok, I give up (Electronic Cigarettes)

[Nzinga, Seated]

I don't smoke, but I used to. I have been 'clean' for 20 years. I don't mind smokers. They stink sometimes, and in a car, on a rainy day, the smoke can be a bit overwhelming, but normally, I'm cool with them...no smoking in my house, naturally, since I have a kid, but before I had a kid, I let folks smoke in my house no prob.

All of that said, I know that many don't like smoke and I don't blame them.

But why do some folks hate electronic cigarettes?? I really want to know. A few guys at my job were told that they had to stop smoking them because there had been complaints. I sat right next to one of them and smelled nothing.

Now, I read the U.S. is seeking to ban them on airplanes. The article doesn't really make me understand why? Anyone have a problem with these things?

[user_hostile]

Read this link. From what I can tell, "an abundance of caution" from the 2nd hand fumes. But YMMV

[hogarth]

Fear of secondhand fumes would be my guess, as well.

[elbows]

Aren't fumes the result of combustion? There is no combustion though.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by hogarth

Fear of secondhand fumes would be my guess, as well.

If that's the case then that's some over-the-top paranoia.

[carnivorousplant]

I think it is the Christian based ethic that if tobacco is bad, something that gives you the same pleasure with none of the bad stuff must be bad because it feels good.

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by user_hostile

Read this link. From what I can tell, "an abundance of caution" from the 2nd hand fumes. But YMMV

From the link:

"The principal liquid ingredient (in e-cigarettes) is propylene glycol,
which is widely used as a moistening food additive and an aid to
vaporization. However, some research, conducted on non-asthmatic
people, has shown that exposure to propylene glycol mist from
artificial smoke generators may cause acute ocular and upper airway
irritation, and in a few cases people reacted with cough and slight
airway obstruction. See G Wieslander, D Norb[auml]ck, and T Lindgren,
``Experimental exposure to propylene glycol mist in aviation emergency
training: Acute ocular and respiratory effects,'' Occupational and
Environmental Medicine 2001; 58:649-655. Further, in a recent New
England Journal of Medicine article, ``E-Cigarette or Drug-Delivery
Device? Regulating Novel Nicotine Products,'' it was noted that the
safety of inhaling propylene glycol has not been studied in humans.
365;3: 193-95."

[MLS]

On an airplane, my guess is that it's just easier to ban anything that looks like it's giving off smoke so that the flight crew doesn't have to check whether what you've got is an e-cig, a real cig or some nefarious thing that's about to explode. It would theoretically be possible to use an e-cig in the lavatory, as there really is no smell or residue, but that would be illegal and I would never in a million years suggest that anyone do so.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Originally Posted by MLS

On an airplane, my guess is that it's just easier to ban anything that looks like it's giving off smoke so that the flight crew doesn't have to check whether what you've got is an e-cig, a real cig or some nefarious thing that's about to explode. It would theoretically be possible to use an e-cig in the lavatory, as there really is no smell or residue, but that would be illegal and I would never in a million years suggest that anyone do so.

Ok, I can buy this explanation. Still not a good reason to ban the things, but I get it. I still don't understand why the guys here at work can't have theirs, though.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by MLS

but that would be illegal

Really? It's not actually smoking.

[ftg]

They are as obnoxious as hell. I don't care how safe somebody claims them do be, I don't like being around them.

I appreciate when someone is trying to quit, but there are too many people out there who've been using them for over a year. That's not quitting, that's embracing your addiction. So my former patience with the users is gone.

[brewha]

What exactly is obnoxious about them? I've never been around them - but they seem completely harmless to me.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by ftg

people out there who've been using them for over a year. That's not quitting, that's embracing your addiction. So my former patience with the users is gone.

The recreational use of nicotine. Like alcohol or caffeine.

[hogarth]

Originally Posted by elbows

Aren't fumes the result of combustion? There is no combustion though.

"Fume" just means "smoke, vapor or gas, especially when irritating or offensive", as far as I know. So a vapor would be a fume.

I'll change my sentence to "fear of secondhand vapor", if it helps.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by hogarth

"Fume" just means "smoke, vapor or gas, especially when irritating or offensive", as far as I know. So a vapor would be a fume.

It is water vapor. Like what comes out of the shower.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

It is water vapor. Like what comes out of the shower.

See post #7.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

See post #7.

How Czarcastic!

Does anyone know it there is a chemical reaction when it vaporizes? That's how one distills stuff. It would be interesting to exhale into a mass spectrometer.

[ZenBeam]

I was on a plane once, where the older lady next to me got out her perfume* and spritzed herself. Twice over the course of the two hour flight. And it's not like she didn't already smell of it from the start.

If they're going to ban e-cigarettes, they should ban applying perfume as well.

* It wasn't perfume where you put a drop or two on with a finger, but some kind of perfume water or something. It probably has some other name than perfume, but I'm not up on these things.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by ZenBeam

I was on a plane once, where the older lady next to me got out her perfume* and spritzed herself.

There are folks at work whom you can tell have driven by with rolled up windows by the smell of their cologne.

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by ZenBeam

I was on a plane once, where the older lady next to me got out her perfume* and spritzed herself. Twice over the course of the two hour flight. And it's not like she didn't already smell of it from the start.

I was seated near a woman who topped this - applying nailpolish remover. It takes a special type of moron to subject fellow passengers to acetone fumes in an enclosed space.

[quedefuk]

I have been using an electronic cigarette for a year and a half now. Ok big deal I'm embracing my addiction. It beats the hell out of that pack and half Marlboro addiction that I carried for thirty five years. I don't have the smoker's hack any longer, my breathing feels clearer than it has in many, many years. I walk into professional settings now and hear comments such as "I can't smell anything, so obviously you're a non-smoker (That felt good). My dentist says my gum disease has become remarkably better, and my doctor is fascinated when he listens to my chest.

I catch some negative comments from people, but don't give a shit. It's been a blessing for both my wife and I. To hell with the haters. Leave me the hell alone and let me live my life.

[MLS]

Originally Posted by tdn

Really? It's not actually smoking.

It would be illegal because the airlines say they are not allowed. Failing to obey the instructions of a flight crew is illegal and, I believe, a federal offense.

[Sunspace]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

I was seated near a woman who topped this - applying nailpolish remover. It takes a special type of moron to subject fellow passengers to acetone fumes in an enclosed space.

I have a rule: if it makes my corneas itch, it's bad. And there have been people with perfumes that have done that. Acetone would be up there too.

I'd say electronic cigarettes are almost nonexistent, comparably, on the toxic emissions annoy-o-meter.

[Stratocaster]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

From the link:

"The principal liquid ingredient (in e-cigarettes) is propylene glycol,
which is widely used as a moistening food additive and an aid to
vaporization. However, some research, conducted on non-asthmatic
people, has shown that exposure to propylene glycol mist from
artificial smoke generators may cause acute ocular and upper airway
irritation, and in a few cases people reacted with cough and slight
airway obstruction. See G Wieslander, D Norb[auml]ck, and T Lindgren,
``Experimental exposure to propylene glycol mist in aviation emergency
training: Acute ocular and respiratory effects,'' Occupational and
Environmental Medicine 2001; 58:649-655. Further, in a recent New
England Journal of Medicine article, ``E-Cigarette or Drug-Delivery
Device? Regulating Novel Nicotine Products,'' it was noted that the
safety of inhaling propylene glycol has not been studied in humans.
365;3: 193-95."

The artificial smoke generators referred to are not e-cigs. It looks to me as if the study focused on levels of PG that create a mist "commonly used in artificial smoke generators in discotheques, theatres, and emergency training." Picture the fog that covers the stage at a Broadway show, or the effect at a dance club. A fog bank, IOW. Also from the cite: "The exposure concentration of PG (geometric mean 309 mg/m3) was quite high, compared with other exposure measurements of this compound in work environments." It was a study of occupational exposure to PG, and anyone who expands the conclusion to cover the sliver of vapor emanating from an e-cigarette is stretching things, ISTM.

IMO, if someone finds the meager tendril of vapor coming from an e-cigarette offensive, it is purely psychological, "anything that looks like someone enjoying tobacco near me is EVIL" knee-jerk nonsense. The vapor from an e-cig bugs you? Really? That tiny plume of water vapor? That says something more about you (the generic "you," not Jackmanni) than the person creating the imaginary pollution. I don't use e-cigarettes, and obviously one must follow the rules in places like airplanes, but I would use it wherever else I felt like, and if anyone didn't like it, tough shit.

[ZenBeam]

If you go here, and select the Smoking of Electronic Cigarettes on Aircraft link, you can submit a comment about the proposed regulation. I submitted a comment roughly mirroring my posts here, but Stratocaster, your post above could mostly be copied and pasted as well.

I doubt it will make a difference, but it wasn't hard to comment.

[Stratocaster]

ZenBeam, I might if I get a chance, though I agree, it won't change anything, not when it relates to the self-righteous hysteria associated with anything that even suggests tobacco use.

BTW, when I mentioned the cite, I should have clarified that I went to the source, not just the DOT's highly selective reference to it. Here it is if anyone is interested. Full text is in a pdf.

[Balthisar]

Originally Posted by MLS

It would be illegal because the airlines say they are not allowed. Failing to obey the instructions of a flight crew is illegal and, I believe, a federal offense.

To play devil's advocate, though, the crew never make an announcement over the PA, and there's no guarantee that anyone reads the instructions in the airline magazine, and so unless one is (a) caught and (b) told to stop, it's probably not illegal unless you insist.

FWIW I know this person who recently quit smoking again and also frequently flies 12 hour to 15 hour flights, and because these long flights are always business class in a pod where no one else can see him or her, has never had an issue with his vaping on personal vaporizers.

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by Stratocaster

IMO, if someone finds the meager tendril of vapor coming from an e-cigarette offensive, it is purely psychological, "anything that looks like someone enjoying tobacco near me is EVIL" knee-jerk nonsense. The vapor from an e-cig bugs you? Really? That tiny plume of water vapor?

If it was just "water vapor" there'd be no issue. If there's propylene glycol and other chemical vapors being exuded into an enclosed, poorly ventilated space like a airliner cabin that could be a problem.

I would use it wherever else I felt like, and if anyone didn't like it, tough shit.

Remember when we used to hear about there being no problem with indoor smoking, since gentlemanly smokers would gladly extinguish their smokes if anyone complained?

[guestchaz]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

Remember when we used to hear about there being no problem with indoor smoking, since gentlemanly smokers would gladly extinguish their smokes if anyone complained?

The Gentlemanly Smoker went extinct when non-smokers started acting like dictatorial butt-hats and began stomping (figuratively) all over them with hobnailed jackboots

[Stratocaster]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

If it was just "water vapor" there'd be no issue. If there's propylene glycol and other chemical vapors being exuded into an enclosed, poorly ventilated space like a airliner cabin that could be a problem.

Unless the e-cigarette is billowing out a cloud bank of mist, I think the concern is nonsense. PG is legally used today in a multitude of products--cosmetics, shampoo, deodorant, in certain foods. Apparently it only became an offensive health risk when it took on the appearance (only the appearance, mind you) of someone enjoying tobacco. The PG emanating from an e-cigarette is miniscule, and I'm not aware of any studies that show that level of PG poses any form of health risk, and I also must have missed the protests over people being permitted on airplanes after using deodorant (frankly, I think forced deodorant is a better policy).

Remember when we used to hear about there being no problem with indoor smoking, since gentlemanly smokers would gladly extinguish their smokes if anyone complained?

You miss my point, then. I'm not saying "I'd use this harmful product, others be damned." This product poses no harm and any outcry against it, IMO, is manufactured, knee-jerk nonsense. Someone complaining over a cigarette has a beef, and only a jerk would ignore it. Someone bitching about an e-cigarette is hallucinating, apparently. I wouldn't indulge that, just as I wouldn't if someone complained that I was drinking a soda or reading the newspaper or any other activity that poses no harm and is none of his business.