Holy shit, what happened to the price of tires?

[Frank]

I've needed better tires on my car ever since I got it. The factory tires are useless in the winter, and I'm uncomfortable with them in rain as well, and I'm returning to Denver soon and also returning to my favorite hobby of wandering around in the mountains on winter weekends. So, OK, it's before the winter rush--it's 80-something degrees in St. Louis today--so it must be a good day to go drop $500 on some decent all-season rubber, right?

Holy fucking shit! Online research told me that there's a rubber shortage, and $500 isn't really realistic for decent tires right now. All right, I decide on a top three list that might be good enough and don't cost a grand. At two different places, none (none!) of the three were available in my size, and neither place had any idea when they might get some. So I've got to spend a lot more, or get worse tires. Wonderful. Oh, well, that's life . . .

What the fuck has science been doing for the last 120 years? Where's the synthetic substitute for rubber?

What the fuck has the government been doing? We've been through two world wars where rubber was a strategic resource, and scarcity of rubber caused problems in the war effort, and on the home front. If another world war started tomorrow, how in heaven will we get the rubber to support that war effort? I"m going to assume that we've got a Strategic Rubber Reserve.

And, what the fuck is the free market doing? Why, it's making tires that nobody will buy because they're too fucking expensive or too fucking horrible, and not making tires that people have bought to such an extent that they're unavailable.

So, suck it, science, and grunt on this here for a bit, government, and, free market, you may simply fellate me. I'd say fuck you, but I can't. There's a rubber shortage, after all, and after today I'm terrified to go price condoms.

[Cesium]

There is synthetic rubber of course. The development of styrene-butadiene rubber during World War II was vital for the war effort since the Japanese controlled the Asian rubber plantations. Right now the price of synthetic rubber is also very high because of the prices of the raw materials, especially butadiene.

I would strongly suggest winter tires if you are planning on being in the Colorado mountains when there is snow on the ground. All season tires are not optimized for snow. Your best bet is to find a set of cheap rims for the winter tires. This also could also give you a little more flexibility with tire size.

[gonzomax]

Wait until you see the mileage guarantees are gone. You but them and they blow up in 1000 miles, your problem.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Cesium

I would strongly suggest winter tires if you are planning on being in the Colorado mountains when there is snow on the ground. All season tires are not optimized for snow. Your best bet is to find a set of cheap rims for the winter tires. This also could also give you a little more flexibility with tire size.

A good set of all-seasons have worked well enough for me in the past. They only need to handle fresh snow and slush, and I can usually deal with ice OK. Winter tires would just go to waste in Denver; usually the snow and ice is off the roads within 48 hours of falling. (January excepted.) I don't try to take the dirt road between Meeker and Steamboat Springs in the winter.

My current tires don't even handle fresh snow, and are untrustworthy on ice, and unreliable even on wet pavement, and have been that way ever since I bought the car. With 30,000 on them, they need to go.

[PunditLisa]

My 8 year old Toyota Sienna is on its fourth set of tires already.

P.S. Look at Costco.

[pullin]

Your answer can be found here and here.

Short version: Obama administration levies 35% tariff on imported (Chinese) tires. With competition removed, other manufacturers raise prices as well.

[my opinion]: You're paying more for tires to fund a presidential payback to the unions.

[GreasyJack]

Originally Posted by pullin

Your answer can be found here and here.

Short version: Obama administration levies 35% tariff on imported (Chinese) tires. With competition removed, other manufacturers raise prices as well.

[my opinion]: You're paying more for tires to fund a presidential payback to the unions.

Horseshit. The price of tires has been steadily creeping up for the past decade or so. Maybe some tiny amount of the price of very low end tires is because of the tarrif, but for the most part that has nothing to do with it.

[Hbns]

The Sumitomo HTR's I have been buying since 2004 have gone up in price about 10%.
The BFG AT T/A KO's I have been buying since 1998 have risen about 7% in price since then.

Both my vehicles have 15 inch wheels. Used to be the most common size.

Are you sure this isn't a case where this vehicle has one of the newer size wheels (16, 17, or 18 inch) and you aren't familiar with tire prices for them?

A friend has a late model Ford truck with 18 inch wheels and purchased BFG AT T/A KO's. For similar overall tire size:
Mine 31x10.50x15 = $156 per tire from Tire Rack
His 275/65R18 = $209 per tire

[Trom]

Originally Posted by GreasyJack

Horseshit. The price of tires has been steadily creeping up for the past decade or so. Maybe some tiny amount of the price of very low end tires is because of the tarrif, but for the most part that has nothing to do with it.

What? Not even close. What price data are you looking at? The price of rubber has exploded exponentially the past couple years.

http://www.mongabay.com/images/commo...ts/rubber.html

[Trom]

I realize you are referring specifically to tires where I gave the price of rubber. Though the correlation coefficient isn't 1, I'm guessing it's pretty high. I've been unable to find a tire price index (that you don't have to pay for).

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Hbns

Are you sure this isn't a case where this vehicle has one of the newer size wheels (16, 17, or 18 inch) and you aren't familiar with tire prices for them?

That could be (they're 17), but that doesn't explain why I can't find any of the ones I want.

[Snickers]

Tire Rack, my friend, Tire Rack. Not that they'll be free, but they're generally cheaper than local stores. And anyone should be able to mount them for a small fee. Even with the mounting fee I paid last time, it was cheaper to buy the tires through Tire Rack.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Snickers

Tire Rack, my friend, Tire Rack. Not that they'll be free, but they're generally cheaper than local stores. And anyone should be able to mount them for a small fee. Even with the mounting fee I paid last time, it was cheaper to buy the tires through Tire Rack.

I'm thinking about it. That's one of the places I looked for reviews and specs.

I'm just ready to get the hell out of St. Louis, and don't know if I want to stick around long enough to do that.

[steronz]

What car? I agree with Hbns that this may just be an issue of increasing wheel width and diameters. I still get tires for less than $350 a set for my older cars with 6 inch wide 15" wheels, even less for cars with 14x5 wheels (used to be a really common size). My newer car, I just spent $600 for decent tires on 17x8 wheels. The bigger the wheel, the more rubber used, and the more engineering that needs to go into the tire to remain strong yet flexible. In an era where minivans come with 19s, tires are necessarily going to get pricier. Also, the wider the wheel, the fewer the options (in my experience). Sportier cars have fewer choices.

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by steronz

What car? I agree with Hbns that this may just be an issue of increasing wheel width and diameters. I still get tires for less than $350 a set for my older cars with 6 inch wide 15" wheels, even less for cars with 14x5 wheels (used to be a really common size).

Yeah, but ISTM that those 14" and 15" wheels used to be more like $200 a set.

I need new tires now for my 2000 Accord, and it's definitely sticker shock time. I'm pretty much figuring I'll be paying in the $350 neighborhood, all told, but it took me a bit of research to realize that.

[billfish678]

Another possible consideration. I've got the impression that over the years tires have gotten bigger/thicker than they used to be. Maybe it a little of everything. Bigger/thicker tires. Inflation. Increased labor/material/environmental considerations/costs. Tariffs. Poor countries that make em not being quite as poor anymore and now charging more. Increased transportation costs. Increased "hidden" taxes that affect the final cost. Perhaps a cost death by a thousand little cuts?

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by pullin

[my opinion]: You're paying more for tires to fund a presidential payback to the unions.

Your opinion is showing a significant amount of tread wear, on what were cheap retreads to begin with. See here, where it's gotten so thin that the steel belts are showing through? Legally, I can't allow you to leave on these, because if you were to become distracted by talk radio and had an accident, I could be held liable.

[hopesperson]

Originally Posted by Snickers

Tire Rack, my friend, Tire Rack. Not that they'll be free, but they're generally cheaper than local stores. And anyone should be able to mount them for a small fee. Even with the mounting fee I paid last time, it was cheaper to buy the tires through Tire Rack.

Seconding this. Once you go Rack, you'll never go back.

[boytyperanma]

Originally Posted by hopesperson

Seconding this. Once you go Rack, you'll never go back.

I just checked for my truck and they came out the same as my local tire place, more if you add shipping.

Personally I'd never buy something like tires from a place I can't walk into if I have issues. If you get a defective tire you kinda screwed dealing with it in a timely manner. The installing shop isn't going to back a product they didn't sell and the mail order place can't get you the tire same day and isn't going to provide a free replacement until they can confirm it was defective to begin with.

[GreasyJack]

Originally Posted by Trom

I realize you are referring specifically to tires where I gave the price of rubber. Though the correlation coefficient isn't 1, I'm guessing it's pretty high. I've been unable to find a tire price index (that you don't have to pay for).

Well, firstly, I was just refuting the claim that the tarrif on Chinese tires (and by extension union largess) was what was driving the price increases. Undoubtedly the price of rubber is what has driven the increase in tire prices.

Perusing the various news articles, the prices of tires have gone up something like 6-8% in response to the recent price spike. Considering that the graph in that link shows the price of rubber at least doubling this year, I would guess the correlation coefficient is pretty far from 1.

This isn't exactly a price index, but try this (PDF): http://web.archive.org/web/200003030.../pdf/tires.pdf

It's the Tire Rack pricesheet from 2000. Some of the brand names have changed and some sizes have fared better than others, but on the most part tires that still have identifiable decedents are about 50-100% more expensive on 2011 Tire Rack than in 2000. Considering how much the price of everything else has gone up, that's a tangible increase but not really "exponential".

In my observation as a tire consumer over that period, the process has been gradual (i.e. "creeping up"), but that is only anecdotal. If you wanted to get really ambitious you could use the Wayback Machine to pull Tire Rack prices from other years and make your own price index!

[Gatopescado]

What about all those "extra" charges? $2.00/ea for valve stems? Mine are fine, thanks. $12-16 for balancing? Sure, its necessary, but its also a 5 minute job. That means you are paying over $120/hr for that little procedure. Shit, if I wanted to pay that much, I'd have my damn lawyer do it for me!

I am lucky*, as I live near a Tire Rack distribution center (and can pick them up and save shipping) and can mount my own tires.

Try some Kuhmo tires. I have found they last longer than most and are cheaper than many.

But I feel your pain.

*Eh, not so much.

[RickJay]

I buy used tires. You get tires with 90% of their lifespan remaining for a quarter of the cost. I'll new buy new tires again.

[Ambivalid]

They've been inflated...

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Gatopescado

What about all those "extra" charges? $2.00/ea for valve stems? Mine are fine, thanks. $12-16 for balancing? Sure, its necessary, but its also a 5 minute job. That means you are paying over $120/hr for that little procedure. Shit, if I wanted to pay that much, I'd have my damn lawyer do it for me!

Well, I went up in price. It was important to me to have good tires. On the bright side, all the extra charges were included in the price of a four tire set.

On the not so bright side, they did a four wheel alignment where, oddly enough, the front left that absolutely nailed the two foot long six inch deep pothole at 75 mph on I-86 in New York was the only one that was not out of alignment. Uh-huh.

But, back on the bright side, I spent enough money that they threw in a needed oil change without trying to sell me brakes, or a coolant flush.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Ambivalid

They've been inflated...

OK, I'm curious. How long do wheelchair tires last? I assume they come in different sizes just as car tires do. Are they super-expensive, and has the price gone up lately?

[drewtwo99]

Why do things cost more than they used to??????????

[Frank]

Originally Posted by drewtwo99

Why do things cost more than they used to??????????

Didn't read the second paragraph of the OP? Or even any of the OP? 'Cause I don't know what the hell you think you're responding to.

[drewtwo99]

Originally Posted by Frank

Didn't read the second paragraph of the OP? Or even any of the OP? 'Cause I don't know what the hell you think you're responding to.

I read it. Tires cost more than they used to cost. So sad, but that's the way life goes. Sometimes prices increase rapidly, sometimes gradually. But over time, everything always ends up costing more. Tires are no exception to the rule.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by drewtwo99

I read it. Tires cost more than they used to cost. So sad, but that's the way life goes. Sometimes prices increase rapidly, sometimes gradually. But over time, everything always ends up costing more. Tires are no exception to the rule.

Ah, I see, it's a comprehension problem, not a literacy problem. It's nice that we have another moron on the board. We've been running short lately.

If you weren't a moron, you would have noticed that I accepted (unhappily) the price increase, but that the tires I wanted weren't available at any price.

[drewtwo99]

Originally Posted by Frank

Ah, I see, it's a comprehension problem, not a literacy problem. It's nice that we have another moron on the board. We've been running short lately.

If you weren't a moron, you would have noticed that I accepted (unhappily) the price increase, but that the tires I wanted weren't available at any price.

Sorry Frank, I owe you an apology. I wasn't responding to your OP, but to the people going back and forth blaming the price increases on China or Obama or whatever. I should have made that more clear. Other people were arguing about the price increase and the cause, and I was poking fun at that.

[Unintentionally Blank]

Without getting to meta, the prices of EVERYTHING has gone up. But I'm also thinking the name brand prices have always been kinda inflated for what you get.

I recently put a set of all season's on the STi. Kumhos for right at $500 installed.

Costco wanted $750 for Bridgestones...and that's just about all they sell.

it used to be, for Corvettes, you could buy tires at the (roughly) $125, $180, and $250 per tire price. BF Goodrich were always a percentage more expensive because they were O.E.M. and catered to the 'Just put on there what the factory did' crowd.

Tires in the $125 range were CRUMMY. They didn't handle, didn't give good feedback, cupped, and wore out quickly. $180 range tires were a good compromise, giving up perhaps 10% ultimate performance over the Perellis and Michelin tires that added a good $300 to a full set of tires when everything was said and done.

FWIW, the last set of tires on the STi were Snow and Ice tires that worked GREAT the 3 days a year that the roads really REALLY sucked. The other 362 days, they were AWFUL. Loud, squirmy, yuk.

[Bryan Ekers]

Michelin Man's got casters to feed.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by drewtwo99

I should have made that more clear.

Yes, you should have, by quoting the people you were responding to. Anyway . . .

I think it's quite clear that the tire price issue is due to a rubber shortage. Tariffs, and inflation, and whatever, may make it worse, but none of them are the core cause.

(I'll add here that making synthetic rubber with an ingredient that is also subject to supply and price issues doesn't gain a whole hell of a lot.)

[drewtwo99]

Originally Posted by Frank

Yes, you should have, by quoting the people you were responding to. Anyway . . .

I think it's quite clear that the tire price issue is due to a rubber shortage. Tariffs, and inflation, and whatever, may make it worse, but none of them are the core cause.

(I'll add here that making synthetic rubber with an ingredient that is also subject to supply and price issues doesn't gain a whole hell of a lot.)

Indeed. Please forgive me for my posting transgressions. I promise to be a better Doper from here on out! I really have no issue with your pitting at all, and what you're going through is definitely frustrating.

Also, I did a nifty little essay on the life of Rubber Tappers in south and central america... I learned a lot about how hard their life is. It's amazing that we even get rubber for the price that we do. Needless to say, their lives are difficult and a lot of them make crap for what they do considering how valuable the rubber they collect is.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Unintentionally Blank

... 'Just put on there what the factory did' crowd.

I would suggest that Hyundai buyers not fall into this for one second. I like the car--a lot--and enjoy it; it's a good quality car. But they put shit tires on it. In hindsight, I'd have taken the car from the dealership straight to a tire store and sold the tires to RickJay.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Originally Posted by Frank

$500 isn't really realistic for decent tires right now. .

Just be glad you don't drive a fancy car. My tires are more than that.

Each.



Ouch!

[R. P. McMurphy]

I appreciate all of the quandary that is being expressed. So here's my 2 cents:

It's really annoying when people espouse a "free market" then blame it on the government when prices of their favorite commodity rise. Then they will scream when the government isn't protecting American jobs or interests. Anyway, enough on that. Just vote for Bachman who promises $2 gallon gas and then live in misery.

Back to tires:

Anectode:

I bought a 2007 Lexus RX 400h. It was delivered equipped with Michelin tires. While rotating them I noticed that the tires were manufactured in the USA. All of the Michelin factories in the USA are east of the Mississippi (at least they were at that time). All Lexus hybrids were assembled in Japan. That means that those tires were somehow manufactured in the USA, shipped to Japan and installed. That means they had to probably go through the Panama canal. Michelin does have factories in Asia. Those tires lasted almost 50k miles. Great tires!

I replaced those tires with some "equivalent" Cooper tires. Those tires started to break down before 15,000 miles. Same vehicle. What a disaster.

I purchased a 2010 Lexus RX 450h. It was delivered with Dunlop tires. At 25K those tires were garbage. Needless to say, I replaced them with Michelins. We'll see how that goes.

Again, this is anecdotal but I'm inclined to believe that you get what you pay for. Buy the premium tires if you can afford to. There really does seem to be a difference in quality.

[Farmer Jane]

My sympathies! For my car, used cars run about $700 for a set of four. I had to borrow money from my mom. How embarrassing.

[Measure for Measure]

From 2001-2010, the price of tires rose by 41%. The CPI rose by 23% during this time. The inflation-adjusted price of tires rose by 20%.

Cite: http://www.bls.gov/xg_shells/ro4xgppihi.htm
Graph: http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q...iceOfTires.png
Since 2004 inflation adjusted tire prices have been rising fairly steadily. I assume it has something to do with China's voracious demand for raw materials. I don't think the Obama explanation holds much water, as he entered office in 2009.

[pool]

I used to buy used tires as well and there are some pretty decent ones out there if you look. I just bought four brand new tires from Pep Boys but I saved 10% with my military discount which is pretty significant when you are talking about tires, maybe you have a friend in the military or something that can get you his discount or look for a coupon. It was also one of those buy three, get the fourth free, so I am still waiting for my visa gift card with $130 on it. The warranty is a good thing to have, if anything at all happens to the tires in the first three months they are replaced absolutely free and after that to something thousand miles I can't remember how many they are still heavily discounted, not too bad a deal I suppose.

[Edward The Head]

I'm going to need new tires soon as well. I didn't know they had gone up so much until my brother got new tires as well and I was looking around for some. You think car tires are bad though, try motorcycle tires. Before I had kids I was replacing a set or two every year. I've had the same bike for 12 years now and I've replaced about 10 sets. They used to cost me just over $200 to have them bought and put on. They will now cost me over $500 for the same tires and I'll have to take them off myself and take them to the shop as people do not work on 10 year old bikes. The price has more then doubled and I have to do more work myself.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by Frank

I would suggest that Hyundai buyers not fall into this for one second. I like the car--a lot--and enjoy it; it's a good quality car. But they put shit tires on it. In hindsight, I'd have taken the car from the dealership straight to a tire store and sold the tires to RickJay.

I've owned three Hyundais and the only problem I ever had with any of them was tires. The first set of allegedly wonderful Hankooks lasted maybe 15,000 miles.

I wouldn't buy those tires new or used with anyone's money.

[Trom]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

From 2001-2010, the price of tires rose by 41%. The CPI rose by 23% during this time. The inflation-adjusted price of tires rose by 20%.

Cite: http://www.bls.gov/xg_shells/ro4xgppihi.htm
Graph: http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q...iceOfTires.png
Since 2004 inflation adjusted tire prices have been rising fairly steadily. I assume it has something to do with China's voracious demand for raw materials. I don't think the Obama explanation holds much water, as he entered office in 2009.

Very interesting! Thanks.

It's strange there wasn't been a pull back in prices in 2008-2009 like in many other commodity related goods.

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by GreasyJack

tires that still have identifiable decedents are about 50-100% more expensive on 2011 Tire Rack than in 2000.

Bolding mine. I think you meant 'precedents' or something like it. 'Decedents' is lawyer talk for 'dead people.'

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

I replaced those tires with some "equivalent" Cooper tires. Those tires started to break down before 15,000 miles. Same vehicle. What a disaster.

I purchased a 2010 Lexus RX 450h. It was delivered with Dunlop tires. At 25K those tires were garbage.

Wow - I've never had any tires, of any brand, go bad that fast. And until at least my mid-40s, I was consistently looking for the most inexpensive tire that had a decent warranty. I was not exactly getting high-end tires.

[Unintentionally Blank]

Originally Posted by RTFirefly

Wow - I've never had any tires, of any brand, go bad that fast. And until at least my mid-40s, I was consistently looking for the most inexpensive tire that had a decent warranty. I was not exactly getting high-end tires.

You and I have completely different useage criteria. 10,000 miles a set is EXCELLENT inmy experience.

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by Frank

I"m going to assume that we've got a Strategic Rubber Reserve.

Well I can only speak for myself, but...

[Gorsnak]

It's my fault. I'm very price-insensitive when I shop for winter tires. "Which are the best?" I ask, "I'll take a set." I don't inquire about the price, because if the Hakkapelita R's will stop me 15' shorter on the glare ice hiding under the snow at the 4-way at Louise & Arlington, whatever the price difference was has just become insignificant.

[Frank]

Originally Posted by RTFirefly

Bolding mine. I think you meant 'precedents' or something like it. 'Decedents' is lawyer talk for 'dead people.'

I just assumed that he could identify the decedents because they didn't get ground up well enough before tires were made out of them.

[Stink Fish Pot]

Originally Posted by Frank

I think it's quite clear that the tire price issue is due to a rubber shortage. Tariffs, and inflation, and whatever, may make it worse, but none of them are the core cause.

Clear to who? I don't see it. A shortage of rubber? Seriously? I think you need to provide a cite.

As for the tires that come on your vehicle when purchased being the way to go, I have to disagree big time. I've purchased 3 BMW's in the last 10 years, and they all come with Continental Touring tires. They are average at best. They usually wear out well before 30K miles, and they aren't great performance tires.

The first BMW I bought had the sports package, which meant lower profile, softer tires... these things came apart before I had 15K miles on them, but they are supposed to... the softer rubber adds to grip, which makes handling unbelievable. Of course, after a couple of weeks of taking on and off ramps on highways at a high rate of speed to enjoy the handling of the car, the novelty wears off and I no longer needed those performance tires.

I too am a tire rack fan, but they are not always the best option any more. They are great to use as a baseline, and I've never had a problem with a tire ordered from there. The best thing I did was buy a set of snow tires for my first BMW, because the hipo tires were worthless in snow or a heavy rain. But snow? I couldn't get up the smallest hill without spinning the tires. Tire Rack sent me 4 steel rims, 4 blizzack snow tires (amazing tires!) all mounted and spun balanced, and 4 hub caps for less than $300. Right to my front door. That was the best $300 I ever spent.

Final anecdotal story.... my wife had a new SAAB that came with Goodyear's. What a POS tire. I talked to the dealer and he admitted that almost everyone complained about the tires (they wouldn't reimburse me, fuck you very much), but he gave me a suggestion.... Sumitomo tires. I believe that's how you spell it. Anyway, they were 4 of the best tires I can remember owning. Handled well, got close to 50K out of them, and they were less than $100 a tire installed.


Can anyone expand on the used tire market? I've never heard of used tires. I guess it makes some sense.. there would certainly be used tires out there, but wouldn't they have a wear pattern already established? Plus, if the tires didn't come off the same car, it would be tough to match tread depth and tire pattern. That seems like it could be dangerous, but maybe it's not. Clearly people are buying them. I'd have no problem buying one for a spare, but for everyday use?


And finally, the additional charges at the tire stores. The $2 stems. The $2 disposal fee. the spin balancing. I would really love to know when the tire stores really began sticking it to the customer? Tire stems RARELY go bad or dry out. It happens, but not enough to replace every time you get new tires. The disposal fee is a joke, since they get paid for the tires they sell to the recycle center. And spin balancing is also a joke. You HAVE to get your tires spin balanced, or you are in for a wobbly ride. Shouldn't that just be included in the price of the tire? It's like buying a laptop and charging me extra for the keyboard. I know they break it out so they can advertise the lowest possible price for their tires, but that's just sad. (How could I forget filling your tire with nitrogen?) Even if this works (and I doubt it), how would you know they actually PUT nitrogen in your tire?

Yeah! There you go, Mister! There's nitrogen in your back tires, and pure helium in the front. that's an extra $100 please!