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  #1  
Old 10-17-2011, 05:58 PM
Frylock Frylock is online now
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Did Herman Cain on Meet the Press help or hinder Herman Cain?

I saw some of the interview. The thing that stood out the most (of what I saw) was that the interviewer really seemed to be softballing Cain, which I thought was odd for Meet the Press.

But does this match others' impressions?

(The question that really made me think this was the one where the interviewer was insisting on adding the state and federal income tax, while Cain was pointing out that since the proposal says nothing about state taxes, it doesn't make sense to add the state tax into the number being discussed. Cain's point in this particular instance appeared to be fairly obvious--but the interviewer kept pushing on it as though he didn't understand Cain's point.)

Cain seemed surprisingly charismatic, and I know he's in front in polling. Is there much serious possiblility he'll be the nominee?
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  #2  
Old 10-17-2011, 06:21 PM
magellan01 magellan01 is offline
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I think it helped him. He's refreshing. For one, he answers the damn questions. and he's offering ideas. Those two things get you a long ways these days.
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  #3  
Old 10-17-2011, 06:35 PM
River Hippie River Hippie is offline
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He did not know what "Neo-con" means. That shocked me. I don't think he had any idea. At least he admitted it.

Neocon

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  #4  
Old 10-17-2011, 07:13 PM
Da Mikster Da Mikster is offline
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It helped folks to see what he's like.... straight from the horse's (whichever end)
Whether that will help or hurt in the polls is anyone's guess.

A lot of folks liked Bachmann and Perry - until they opened their mouths. He may just be the next one, or maybe he'll start to be more than stage dressing at the debates..
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  #5  
Old 10-17-2011, 07:14 PM
Jas09 Jas09 is offline
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He did fine, particularly because there was no serious foreign policy discussion. It will likely help him, as far as these things go.

In the end, 9-9-9 will sink him policy-wise as conservatives are forced to confront the political realities of a tax hike on seniors. As to your final question - no, he's not a serious candidate until he starts either doing serious candidate things (infrastructure, advisors, endorsements) OR starts actually winning primaries.
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  #6  
Old 10-17-2011, 07:21 PM
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He did fine, particularly because there was no serious foreign policy discussion. It will likely help him, as far as these things go.

In the end, 9-9-9 will sink him policy-wise as conservatives are forced to confront the political realities of a tax hike on seniors. As to your final question - no, he's not a serious candidate until he starts either doing serious candidate things (infrastructure, advisors, endorsements) OR starts actually winning primaries.
Well, that and the whole "electrocute the Mexicans" thing.
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  #7  
Old 10-17-2011, 07:41 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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I think his chances at the Presidency have remained approximately unchanged, insofar as they were approximately 0, and they still are. This might, however, help him establish himself as a commentator or the like.
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  #8  
Old 10-17-2011, 08:05 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Things that stood out to me (and not in a good way): when asked about his stance on abortion, Cain reiterated his position of not supporting abortion ever, even in cases of rape or incest. When pressed further to say whether that included when the life of the mother is at stake, he cowardly took NO stance. He said "that will be up to the families. That will be up to the families." When David Gregory asked him for his opinion on the matter, he just repeated himself, "that will be up to the families." Wha??

Then there was the debacle of 9-9-9. To say that the 9% sales tax will only affect new products is incomprehensible to me. Don't poor people buy goods and medicines and the sort with the majority of their monies? "Used food"? "Used medicine"? Am I missing something?
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  #9  
Old 10-17-2011, 08:08 PM
gonzomax gonzomax is offline
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Originally Posted by Jas09 View Post
He did fine, particularly because there was no serious foreign policy discussion. It will likely help him, as far as these things go.

In the end, 9-9-9 will sink him policy-wise as conservatives are forced to confront the political realities of a tax hike on seniors. As to your final question - no, he's not a serious candidate until he starts either doing serious candidate things (infrastructure, advisors, endorsements) OR starts actually winning primaries.
His 999 adds taxes to the poor and lowers them for the rich. It is a gift to the wealthy. Cain is just another worker for the rich.
He said he wants all bills 3 pages long. He suggested an fatally electrified fence that he would put along the Mexican border.
No, he can not be taken seriously. it just shows the desperation in the Repub party.
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  #10  
Old 10-17-2011, 09:08 PM
Da Mikster Da Mikster is offline
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Originally Posted by gonzomax View Post
it just shows the desperation in the Repub party.
Did you ever consider that maybe this early bozo-fest was to make the eventual nominee look even more like a 'real' candidate? A super magic sparkly turd polish?

The Dems might need to get some too.
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  #11  
Old 10-17-2011, 09:43 PM
gonzomax gonzomax is offline
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Did you ever consider that maybe this early bozo-fest was to make the eventual nominee look even more like a 'real' candidate? A super magic sparkly turd polish?

The Dems might need to get some too.
It distills down to Romney, a serial flip flopper, a Mormon who will alienate the Christian right, a rich man who many can not trust, A northeastern liberal , a man who was born rich ,trying to consolidate a party that can not relate to him. it will not be an easy task.
Can Bachmann supporters be convinced to work for him? The Kochs are beginning to back Cain. will they veer off to Romney? Will Paul's libertarians accept Romney?
I am not persuaded that he can bring the party together.
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  #12  
Old 10-17-2011, 09:45 PM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is offline
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Then there was the debacle of 9-9-9. To say that the 9% sales tax will only affect new products is incomprehensible to me. Don't poor people buy goods and medicines and the sort with the majority of their monies? "Used food"? "Used medicine"? Am I missing something?
Beyond that, such a tax would actively discourage people from buying new goods when used goods are an option (particularly durable goods, such as autos). I can't see that going over particularly well with retailers or manufacturers, many of whom are still struggling.
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  #13  
Old 10-18-2011, 12:11 AM
Da Mikster Da Mikster is offline
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I'm not sure Cain is a deep thinker.
I think he's probably a proud American that feels he has something of value to contribute to the country. Unfortunately, he hasn't found that place. His 'jokes', his lack of depth on most issues... he's not ready to be President. He may get there some day, but he's certainly not ready for prime time today. On that note, I sometimes can't help but think of him like Garrett Morris on the original SNL - he knew he was the token minority guy, but he did his best to run with it anyway.

Unfortunately, it just isn't enough to get him into the White House, even with Koch Industries backing.
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2011, 12:47 AM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Originally Posted by Da Mikster View Post
I'm not sure Cain is a deep thinker.
I think he's probably a proud American that feels he has something of value to contribute to the country. Unfortunately, he hasn't found that place. His 'jokes', his lack of depth on most issues... he's not ready to be President. He may get there some day, but he's certainly not ready for prime time today. On that note, I sometimes can't help but think of him like Garrett Morris on the original SNL - he knew he was the token minority guy, but he did his best to run with it anyway.

Unfortunately, it just isn't enough to get him into the White House, even with Koch Industries backing.
He's a proud "Black American". Make sure you don't dare call him an "African American".

Last edited by Ambivalid; 10-18-2011 at 12:47 AM..
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  #15  
Old 10-18-2011, 04:02 AM
Quartz Quartz is offline
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Is he positioning himself for 2016?
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  #16  
Old 10-18-2011, 06:58 AM
Simplicio Simplicio is online now
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Is he positioning himself for 2016?
He's positioning himself to have his own news talkshow in 2016.
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  #17  
Old 10-18-2011, 07:03 AM
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I still think he's got his eye on the VP chair.
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  #18  
Old 10-18-2011, 07:32 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is online now
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He isn't going to win the nomination and has no intention of doing so. He has little money and even less organization. He got in the race to sell his book. He's only getting attention because 80% of the party can't stand Romney and would give Charles Manson a look if he got in the race.
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  #19  
Old 10-18-2011, 07:38 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
I think his chances at the Presidency have remained approximately unchanged, insofar as they were approximately 0, and they still are. This might, however, help him establish himself as a commentator or the like.
That's a pretty good analysis.

I also agree that he wasn't really pushed on anything other than the abortion issue. It was surprising how he seemed confused by the question about neocons, even though I dislike the term since it doesn't have any real agreed-upon meaning and is often used by its detractors as a broad brush for anyone they don't agree with.

The 9-9-9 thing is absurd. Why is it that people think a president can singlehandedly revamp the entire tax code? We can't get the Congress to agree to change rates by even 1%, and he's proposing to scrap the whole system and implement a new on that will drastically affect the amount of taxes certain groups pay.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:02 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Originally Posted by Da Mikster View Post
I'm not sure Cain is a deep thinker.
I think he's probably a proud American that feels he has something of value to contribute to the country. Unfortunately, he hasn't found that place. His 'jokes', his lack of depth on most issues... he's not ready to be President. He may get there some day, but he's certainly not ready for prime time today. On that note, I sometimes can't help but think of him like Garrett Morris on the original SNL - he knew he was the token minority guy, but he did his best to run with it anyway.
Garrett Morris at least was talented enough to deserve to be there.

Cain's getting some traction because

1. It's his turn. People got sick of Perry and Bachmann, and it feels like Mitt Romney has been running for President since the 1816 election. They have to pay attention to someone.

2. He actually came up with an idea. 9-9-9 may be a stupid idea, I don't know, but at least it's an idea. I quite honestly can't tell you what the hell Rick Perry's platform is beyond "I should be President," and I believe Michele Bachmann's platform is that all homosexuals should be burned at the stake or something.

Never underestimate the power of a politician who actually has a simple and straightforward platform that people can grasp.

3. While I agree Cain is almost certainly doomed anyway, he is not an idiot, and probably knows that someone else will get nominated and will probably lose. So maybe he's getting ready for 2016, just as Reagan's run in 1976 got him ready for 1980.
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  #21  
Old 10-18-2011, 09:17 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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I believe Michele Bachmann's platform is that all homosexuals should be burned at the stake or something.
That is such an unfair characterization. She believes they should pray themselves straight. And that her husband is the perfect facilitator for that effort. He has a certain way of "connecting" with gays, or so it would appear.
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  #22  
Old 10-18-2011, 09:30 AM
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That is such an unfair characterization. She believes they should pray themselves straight. And that her husband is the perfect facilitator for that effort. He has a certain way of "connecting" with gays, or so it would appear.
Same difference. He attaches them to his pole and things get hot.

But we digress.
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  #23  
Old 10-18-2011, 09:33 AM
Bricker Bricker is offline
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
To say that the 9% sales tax will only affect new products is incomprehensible to me. Don't poor people buy goods and medicines and the sort with the majority of their monies? "Used food"? "Used medicine"? Am I missing something?
Are you familiar with the VAT as used in the UK? As I understand it, Cain's proposal is similar to a value-added tax. It seems to work in the UK. Why, specifically, don't you comprehend it?
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  #24  
Old 10-18-2011, 09:40 AM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is offline
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Are you familiar with the VAT as used in the UK? As I understand it, Cain's proposal is similar to a value-added tax. It seems to work in the UK. Why, specifically, don't you comprehend it?
I suspect that's not what he finds incomprehensible. It's probably Cain's reassurance that "The sales tax only applies to people who buy new goods, not used goods," coupled with the idea that necessities (food, medicine, etc., which likely make up the lion's share of what the poor spend their money on) are fundamentally always "new goods".

Last edited by kenobi 65; 10-18-2011 at 09:41 AM..
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:43 AM
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Are you familiar with the VAT as used in the UK? As I understand it, Cain's proposal is similar to a value-added tax. It seems to work in the UK.
VAT doesn't apply to most foods (except junk foods and restaurant meals) and prescription medicines (but does apply to OTC medicine). However, the UK doesn't have local sales taxes to deal with - no city or state or whatever add-ons.
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  #26  
Old 10-18-2011, 10:46 AM
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What I have never seen mentioned about the "999" plan: If you immediately slap a 9% surcharge on every item sold in the whole country, won't that grind whatever meager recovery we have to a halt?

As much as I hate income tax, sales taxes are even worse during down times.
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  #27  
Old 10-18-2011, 10:50 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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I don't know why anyone is paying any attention to the whole 9-9-9 thing other than pointing and laughing. It's ridiculous; it will never pass, nor will anything even close to it; it will raise taxes tremendously on many lower income people.
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  #28  
Old 10-18-2011, 10:54 AM
gonzomax gonzomax is offline
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I don't know why anyone is paying any attention to the whole 9-9-9 thing other than pointing and laughing. It's ridiculous; it will never pass, nor will anything even close to it; it will raise taxes tremendously on many lower income people.
Because it tells you a lot about the depth of the candidate. 999 is stupid, but the guy proposing it shows his stupidity by keeping at it. Cain is a joke.
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  #29  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:09 AM
Kolga Kolga is offline
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Did you ever consider that maybe this early bozo-fest was to make the eventual nominee look even more like a 'real' candidate? A super magic sparkly turd polish?

The Dems might need to get some too.
That has been my opinion for a while now. No reasonable person in their right (in both ways) mind would think that Bachmann, Cain, Santorum, Paul, or Gingrich would be in any way viable candidates. In past years, Paul has clearly been the lunatic fringe of the campaign, but now, in this crowd, he's actually considered reasonable.

Using these batshit politicians as supposed early runners is a ploy to make the eventual candidates (who I believe will be Romney/Perry) look "normal."
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  #30  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:17 AM
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Interesting letter in the paper this morning. A local retiree (who has no payroll taxes, obviously) redid his 2010 taxes using Cain's proposal. The result was that he would have paid 260 times what he paid in 2010. He didn't show his math, of course, but this seems like a deal killer for anybody who takes the time to figure out Cain's plan.
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  #31  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:32 AM
Swords to Plowshares Swords to Plowshares is offline
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It distills down to Romney, a serial flip flopper, a Mormon who will alienate the Christian right, a rich man who many can not trust, A northeastern liberal , a man who was born rich ,trying to consolidate a party that can not relate to him. it will not be an easy task.
Can Bachmann supporters be convinced to work for him? The Kochs are beginning to back Cain. will they veer off to Romney? Will Paul's libertarians accept Romney?
I am not persuaded that he can bring the party together.
The Koch brothers have always backed Cain. He's basically been the spokesman for Americans for Prosperity for a while now.
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  #32  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:32 AM
Jas09 Jas09 is offline
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Yeah, it's retirees that really get screwed from a change from income taxes (which they have already paid for 30 or 40 years) to consumption taxes (now that they are in the "consumption only" phase of life).

The other group that gets screwed is those that use the EITC and other credits to zero out their federal income tax contribution. They now have a 9% income tax liability (replacing their current payroll tax liability) plus 9% on consumption. This is a pretty hefty hike on a low income.

Any sort of transition to this type of taxation scheme would need to be phased in gradually, and have some sort of age- and income-related rebate or pre-bate on the consumption tax portion.
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  #33  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:38 AM
CJJ* CJJ* is offline
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For all the problems I have with Mr. Cain, I'm somewhat surprised the "neocon" response is getting as much attention as it is. While I doubt he is truly "unfamiliar" with the term, I think given the context of his remarks he was (awkwardly) trying to say that he doesn't want to be labeled as a neocon. It's somewhat similar to how folks on the left prefer to be called "progressive" rather than "liberal", since the latter term carries (fairly or not) unwelcome political baggage.

Mr. Cain's response regarding the border also deserved a little more scrutiny. I'll allow himthe benefit of saying the electric fence was a joke (though I'm not sure what the joke really is), but he did say during the interview that federal troops would be required to secure the border. I'm not sure how platoons of soldiers armed with automatic weapons roaming the southwest would be any more palatable than a long electric fence.

Regarding the 9-9-9 plan and the comment regarding used goods, Bricker is correct that this is a long way round to describing a VAT; I think this is also why Cain insisted that it was completely separate from the states' sales tax. For VAT, tax is excised on the value added to a product by the seller at each stage of the process. Each seller, of course, builds the cost of the VAT he/she pays into the price at his/her stage, so ultimately the final price the consumer sees is 9% higher than expected (wikipedia has a pretty good comparison of a sales tax vs VAT scheme). For used goods, this same step-by-step process is still at work: If my car is worth $10K (i.e. assume that's the bluebook price), and I sell it to a used car lot for $10K, there is no VAT on the sale, but if they turn that car and sell it for, say, $11K, then VAT is assessed on that extra $1000 (I'm vastly simplifying here).

If Cain is really proposing a VAT, the administrative and enforcement costs of such a tax are much greater than a sales tax so I think it will ultimately collect less than what's being proposed (which isn't much to begin with). Plus it's clearly regressive, since the poor spend a higher percentage of their income than the wealthy. But for me, the real crime in 9-9-9 is the exemption for investment income--why Gregory didn't press this point more is beyond me.
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  #34  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:54 AM
Simplicio Simplicio is online now
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Regarding the 9-9-9 plan and the comment regarding used goods, Bricker is correct that this is a long way round to describing a VAT;.
Is it? The descriptions I've read just makes it sound like a sales tax at the final point of sale. I went to Cain's website, but his 999 pdf is two pages long, one of which is a giant picture of Cain and the other has one bullet point devoted to the sales tax. Nothing in it makes it sound like anything other then a simple sales tax.
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  #35  
Old 10-18-2011, 12:26 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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And what few people have really mentioned (perhaps because of the dearth of info out there) is that the 999 thing is just a stepping stone. I've heard Cain say at least once that downstream it because a straight national sales tax with all other federal taxes eliminated. That's fine, as far as it goes, but he's sure not bringing it up a lot now that he's being perceived as as serious candidate.
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  #36  
Old 10-18-2011, 12:50 PM
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Things that stood out to me (and not in a good way): when asked about his stance on abortion, Cain reiterated his position of not supporting abortion ever, even in cases of rape or incest. When pressed further to say whether that included when the life of the mother is at stake, he cowardly took NO stance. He said "that will be up to the families. That will be up to the families." When David Gregory asked him for his opinion on the matter, he just repeated himself, "that will be up to the families." Wha??
The thing that stood out to me is that he defered to family decision-making in instances of incest. Like, really? Do we really want to leave abortion up to the family even when it's family that caused the pregnancy in the first place?
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  #37  
Old 10-18-2011, 12:57 PM
Steve MB Steve MB is offline
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The phrasing of the thread title is giving me Bob Dole flashbacks.
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  #38  
Old 10-18-2011, 01:00 PM
Simplicio Simplicio is online now
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Mr. Cain's response regarding the border also deserved a little more scrutiny. I'll allow himthe benefit of saying the electric fence was a joke (though I'm not sure what the joke really is),
FWIW, he's now saying he was joking about it being a joke, and is back to being serious about it. Its unclear if this is in fact a meta-meta-joke, in which case he still may be joking.
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  #39  
Old 10-18-2011, 01:15 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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I went to Cain's website, but his 999 pdf is two pages long...
Wow, he still has room for another whole page of explanation!
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  #40  
Old 10-18-2011, 02:23 PM
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Mr. Cain's response regarding the border also deserved a little more scrutiny. I'll allow himthe benefit of saying the electric fence was a joke (though I'm not sure what the joke really is), but he did say during the interview that federal troops would be required to secure the border. I'm not sure how platoons of soldiers armed with automatic weapons roaming the southwest would be any more palatable than a long electric fence.
You can see in his face that he wasn't joking. The most rank amateur politician wouldn't have said something that stupid if he was running for POTUS. Oh wait: he just did. The man is a loose canon and should not be holding any public office.
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  #41  
Old 10-18-2011, 02:23 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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The thing that stood out to me is that he defered to family decision-making in instances of incest. Like, really? Do we really want to leave abortion up to the family even when it's family that caused the pregnancy in the first place?
I don't think so. I heard him say absolutely no abortion even in the case of rape or incest.
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  #42  
Old 10-18-2011, 02:39 PM
CJJ* CJJ* is offline
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He isn't going to win the nomination and has no intention of doing so. He has little money and even less organization. He got in the race to sell his book.
This is almost certainly correct. In fact he's on a book tour now, and his campaign seems to be laundering campaign money back into his motivational speaker business by having his campaign buy a lot of copies of his books.
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  #43  
Old 10-18-2011, 02:46 PM
Capitaine Zombie Capitaine Zombie is offline
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FWIW, he's now saying he was joking about it being a joke, and is back to being serious about it. Its unclear if this is in fact a meta-meta-joke, in which case he still may be joking.
Lord, did he accidentally cut his balls off?
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  #44  
Old 10-18-2011, 03:13 PM
River Hippie River Hippie is offline
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I don't think so. I heard him say absolutely no abortion even in the case of rape or incest.
The family decision scenario was in situations where the mother's life was in danger. I thought his answer was extra weasally. If you are saying the family should be able to decide in favor of abortion when the mother's life is at stake than you are for the right to an abortion in such cases. Just say it.

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  #45  
Old 10-18-2011, 03:16 PM
Da Mikster Da Mikster is offline
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FWIW, he's now saying he was joking about it being a joke, and is back to being serious about it. Its unclear if this is in fact a meta-meta-joke, in which case he still may be joking.
He discovered that saying it double his support base (to 50?), then saying was a joke caused those yahoos plus a few more walk away.... Now he's on his knees professing his undying devotion and begging them not to leave him -- sorta like a guy caught by his rich wife with the blonde cookie from next door.

Last edited by Da Mikster; 10-18-2011 at 03:17 PM..
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  #46  
Old 10-18-2011, 03:31 PM
Marley23 Marley23 is online now
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Did you ever consider that maybe this early bozo-fest was to make the eventual nominee look even more like a 'real' candidate?
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Using these batshit politicians as supposed early runners is a ploy to make the eventual candidates (who I believe will be Romney/Perry) look "normal."
Political parties don't work like this. At least, not in the U.S. and not at this level.The parties don't pick the candidates. The candidates pick themselves and use the party as a support mechanism. Most of the candidates are in it because they think they can win. I'd say the exceptions are Gingrich (who has botched it anyway), Santorum (who is just hoping he can affect his Google search results), and maybe Cain- isn't he scheduling a book tour simultaneously with his campaign? That's... lackadaisical.
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:52 PM
amarone amarone is offline
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isn't he scheduling a book tour simultaneously with his campaign?
He did, but it's over. It lasted all of 8 days - Oct 2 - 10.
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  #48  
Old 10-18-2011, 03:56 PM
Marley23 Marley23 is online now
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He did, but it's over. It lasted all of 8 days - Oct 2 - 10.
Ah, OK. In that case it totally makes sense to take time out of your presidential campaign to promote your book.
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  #49  
Old 10-18-2011, 03:57 PM
Da Mikster Da Mikster is offline
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Political parties don't work like this. At least, not in the U.S. and not at this level.The parties don't pick the candidates. The candidates pick themselves and use the party as a support mechanism.
So, you are saying you think that the RNC, Rupert or the Koch Bros, etc. aren't above manipulating all this by trying to feature "the soup of the day"?

Media today doesn't "report" the news, if it ever did. -- It shapes the news by what they cover, how, and how often.... and what they don't.
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  #50  
Old 10-18-2011, 04:04 PM
Marley23 Marley23 is online now
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So, you are saying you think that the RNC, Rupert or the Koch Bros, etc. aren't above manipulating all this by trying to feature "the soup of the day"?
I didn't say anybody was "above" anything. It's not an ethical issue. I said that's not how the system works because that's not how it works. The RNC and DNC don't select the candidates and then recruit challengers to make them look credible. The candidates decide if they want to run or not, and before and after they decide to run, they court supporters, donors, and the party establishment. Steele and Priebus didn't rope Bachmann and Cain into throw their hats in the ring to make Romney and Perry look good.
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