While the cosmological argument is a good start, it’s been given a savaging from Kant and Russell (here for example).
Not to mention that the idea that the idea that there could be an infinite chain of causes being an affront to logic doesn’t mean it couldn’t be posited without evidence. Logic may be a property of the universe, supernatural entities may not have to possess it. Others have said the universe is a result of the wave function, or nothing being fundamentally unstable. Equally without physical evidence (I suppose anything manifesting itself in the physical universe is inherently not supernatural). One could even claim that human evolution culminates with humans recreating the universe.
It would have been cool to list the teleological and ontological arguments (as well as perhaps the argument from absurdity) for the sake of completion, along with not giving any one precedence.
I agree. This question didn’t get the full attention it truly deserved. Cecil should have gone on with counter arguments, other theories, and explain the meta-theology that underlines current religious practice.
The measly article that Cecil wrote would barely fill up a newspaper column!
When I saw the question, I was excited to read the answer - but have to say it was a big disappointment. Pretty one-sided, with a big emphasis on Aquinas - guess he was Cecil’s Prime (and pretty much only) Mover when coming up with his answer. A vague, pointless and probably politically correct answer if I have ever seen one. Shame on you Cecil - you’re such a brilliant mind - why did you not put that power to use on this question? With so much of our world held hostage by deluded people who base their entire life on the word of a god who isn’t there, you could at least give it the old college try to answer this in your usual well thought our fashion.
As Carl Sagan said, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”…and you have provided evidence only of the most mundane variety.
A disappointing article, far too shallow for the subject matter. I think Cecil bit off a little more than he could chew in the space of 600 words this time
As many volumes have been written on the subject and all here agree that volumes more would have to be penned to adequately cover any discussion, a columnar answer would, by default, have to be of the “Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus” variety. I’m not sure what else could be expected. Perhaps dodging the question would have been best.
I think I can simplify this answer of God…
We can spend lots of time and energy coming up with wonderfully intellectual sounding logic and theories…or just cut to the chase and go to THE source!
Just ask Him…sounds too simple huh? But I’m not kidding, ask Him…I will guarantee an answer. God does NOT ignore a serious inquiry to whether or not He’s there.
He knows you so well (He knew you before you were born) that He will choose the perfect time and situation to revel Himself to you if you really want to know if He exist.
Don’t dispel that still small voice…God loves a challenge, He always wins, because He knows the beginning and the end and everything in between.
God is a very cool dude!
The Catholics made the Friday fish and Lent to keep their congregation healthy and working. Seems that Fish and some Iodine keep the Thyroid working well. If the Thyroid works well, you have energy and can work. If you work and are healthy you will have bigger income and can give a larger amount to the church. If you have little energy you need what little money you can make to support yourself and family. Having good health and more cash gives you extra for the church. The fish/church thing is something incorporated into the religion for health. Most people ate fish, chicken, and eggs in the summer a hundred plus years ago and ate beef, venesin, pork, etc in the winter. There was no freezers to hold meat from a big animal in in the summer with the exception of some commercial icehouses.
It seems to me you didn’t read Cecil’s article very carefully. He basically says “if it’s not turtles all the way down, then the first turtle can be called “God” whether that is just nature itself or a supernatural deity.” Which seems pretty reasonable to me; he basically dodges the question, while giving his readers some context for further discussion. He certainly doesn’t appear to me to be supporting the cosmological argument, just using it as an example to inform.
In order for this theory to work, you have to change God completely.
One of the points is that nothing is eternal, everything has to have a cause.
Well, religion tells us that God is eternal.
According to this, God can’t be eternal. Who or what was God’s mom?
I believe in god, the creater of everything we see. I don’t really know what he/she/it is, but I feel there is structure to things in this reality and it isn’t random. Everybody needs to believe in something. Belief makes you whole. Without any beliefs you lack true consciousness. I don’t really know who’s god is right, seems to me that everyone tries to say their god/gods are the right or that their belief that there is no god is true. I can state as fact that I don’t know what the hell is really true.
Nothing is eternal unless it is froze in time. Things can live a lot longer than mankind thinks though. Our definition of life is severly flawed also. In order to be considered alive something has to grow and replicate. What about the bacteria that they are finding that is a million or so years old and starts growing again upon being taken out of dormancy, was it technically dead? What about seeds that have been stored in ideal conditions and are thousands of years old and start growing when planted, were they dead? Life needs a new definition, there are too many flaws with the present understanding of it.
The Universe is still in all the stages of creation, from the original idea at the Universe’s expanding periphery, to the endless sea of timelessness where it has ended. It begat from that most staggeringly profound and perpetual notion that anything would even exist impressing so heavily into a great fractal expression. Some call it the quantum fluctuation that started everything. That idea is a premonition, therefore all living entities are the consciousness that are but a predisposition to the idea’s existence. There is, after all, no time, space, or matter or even any before at that moment. Nothing is not something you can walk around in, wave your hand through, or poke with a stick, but it can be thought of as representing infinite density, which represents infinite potential, therefore the Universe will continue creating for perpetuity.
As for God, well, just refer to the second paragraph of the biblical account of the flood and the tower of Babel. “In those days, when the sons of the gods had intercourse with the daughters of men, there were giants upon the earth. Those were the heroes of old.”
Judge for yourself. Stories do tend to grow with each retelling. The first few pages of Genesis impress me as a hurried preamble to set the stage for that collection of documents that comprise the bible which were produced by many different authors over a span of about 700 years. It is a manifesto of old writings. That is all. One individual creating everything in the Universe? Please…
What if we are part of one individual? What if we are part of some being frozen in time. There is a repetition of shapes in the universe with many large things form in the shape of the smallest. What if all we are is memories of this creature. If we loose the bonds that keep us together we will turn to dust and gasses. What structures this energy that holds things together. Life here could possibly not even exist, we could be advanced holographic beings. There are trillions of possibilities. Science only studies what they percieve as real. Maybe some advanced alien race is on it’s way to pick up all our precious metals as we speak because their advanced computer system can make dust come together on another planet to create miners. Not probable but it is possible.
Anyway, what if, like, a whole universe exists in a single atom in my fingernail. Whoa. And, then, like, our whole universe could be, like, a single atom in some giant being’s universe. I think you just blew my mind.