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Old 11-06-2011, 09:56 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Nasa Paper: "Warp Field Mechanics 101"

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...2011016932.pdf
Quote:
Abstract:
Warp Field Mechanics 101
Dr. Harold “Sonny” White
NASA Johnson Space Center
2101 NASA Parkway, MC EP4
Houston, TX 77058
e-mail:
harold.white-1@nasa.gov

This paper will begin with a short review of the Alcubierre warp drive metric and describes how the
phenomenon might work based on the original paper. The canonical form of the metric was developed
and published in [6] which provided key insight into the field potential and boost for the field which
remedied a critical paradox in the original Alcubierre concept of operations. A modified concept of
operations based on the canonical form of the metric that remedies the paradox is presented and
discussed. The idea of a warp drive in higher dimensional space-time (manifold) will then be briefly
considered by comparing the null-like geodesics of the Alcubierre metric to the Chung-Freese metric to
illustrate the mathematical role of hyperspace coordinates. The net effect of using a warp drive
“technology” coupled with conventional propulsion systems on an exploration mission will be discussed
using the nomenclature of early mission planning. Finally, an overview of the warp field interferometer
test bed being implemented in the Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory: Eagleworks (APPL:E) at the
Johnson Space Center will be detailed. While warp field mechanics has not had a “Chicago Pile” moment,
the tools necessary to detect a modest instance of the phenomenon are near at hand.
It ends with a quote from Peter Pan, "2nd star to the right, straight on till morning".

So, a warp field interferometer test bed is being implemented and a least some think that they may be on the verge of a "Chicago Pile" moment, and the author is envisioning interstellar travel.

I don't have the knowledge to judge something like this. I do know that just because a paper is on NASA's servers doesn't mean that it's not a bunch of hooey. Anyone here knowledgeable enough to say if this is conceivably possible, or is it akin to perpetual motion?
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2011, 10:28 PM
E-Sabbath E-Sabbath is offline
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Said quote from Peter Pan is also a line from one of the Star Trek movies, quoted by Captain Kirk.
  #3  
Old 11-06-2011, 10:49 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Okay. I searched it and came up with Peter Pan, but Star Trek does make more sense in this context. Anyway, that's completely unimportant to this thread.
  #4  
Old 11-06-2011, 11:21 PM
simster simster is offline
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How do we know they didn't invent the thing?
  #5  
Old 11-06-2011, 11:52 PM
Sunspace Sunspace is online now
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The very little I've read about the Alcubierre warp gives me the impression that it's theoretically possible, but that it requires the ability to manipulate such extreme masses, energies, or speeds that it will never be doable by us. Not unlike time travel.
  #6  
Old 11-07-2011, 05:31 AM
E-Sabbath E-Sabbath is offline
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davidm: Oh, yes, but that was the only contribution I could make. And Kirk was quoting Pan, anyhow.

Sunspace's point is quite valid, but I still retain hope.
  #7  
Old 11-07-2011, 11:38 AM
robert_columbia robert_columbia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simster View Post
How do we know they didn't invent the thing?
Hello computer?
  #8  
Old 11-07-2011, 12:39 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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From what little I understand of the paper (and it's very little) the claim is that they may have found a way around the shortcomings of the original Alcubierre idea.
  #9  
Old 11-07-2011, 12:43 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Sabbath View Post
davidm: Oh, yes, but that was the only contribution I could make. And Kirk was quoting Pan, anyhow.

Sunspace's point is quite valid, but I still retain hope.
I hope I didn't come off as snarky with my remark about your contribution's importance to this thread. I certainly didn't mean it that way. I just didn't want the thread to get hijacked into Peter Pan versus Star Trek.

In fact, you actually did add something by pointing out what was likely the intended context. It reinforces the idea that the author really is thinking about a Star Trek like warp drive.
  #10  
Old 11-07-2011, 10:31 PM
Spatial Rift 47 Spatial Rift 47 is offline
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Cosmology grad student here. This smells like bullshit to me. Yes, the Alcubierre metric is, as far as pure GR is concerned, a valid metric. But the proposed experiment fails to address except by the briefest mentions the fundamental problem: creating negative energy density. No one knows how to do this, and the "capacitor ring" that exists in their diagram sure as hell won't do it. Charge the capacitors all you like, with whatever current or charged particle you want. It's positive energy density.

There is significant theoretical evidence, from the mathematical foundations of field theory that underlie the highly verified results of quantum mechanics, that creating anything more than a whisper of negative energy density is simply not possible.

So why is NASA hosting this paper? Because there is the slight chance that someone pursuing this method might discover something, even if it's not what they set out to find. Also, it looks to be connected with the recent 100 Year Starship conference on human space travel and colonization. I've been unable to find if this Dr. Harold "Sonny" White has any academic affiliations, or even where he got his doctorate.
  #11  
Old 11-07-2011, 11:08 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatial Rift 47 View Post
So why is NASA hosting this paper? Because there is the slight chance that someone pursuing this method might discover something, even if it's not what they set out to find.
You say that like it is a bad thing.
  #12  
Old 11-08-2011, 08:25 AM
billfish678 billfish678 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunspace View Post
The very little I've read about the Alcubierre warp gives me the impression that it's theoretically possible, but that it requires the ability to manipulate such extreme masses, energies, or speeds that it will never be doable by us. Not unlike time travel.
Thats always been my impression too. It may just be that they think they have come up with a experiment (and or trick to work around the negative energy density problem) where they think they can create and measure this "warp field".

Or, in other words, even though making a practical warp drive may be for all practical purposes impossible, it still might be a measurable lab effect, which would still get the physics and math guys all excited.
  #13  
Old 11-08-2011, 10:25 AM
Spatial Rift 47 Spatial Rift 47 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
You say that like it is a bad thing.
If I implied that, I was mistaken. There should be as a matter of course research into things believed impossible, because the beliefs might be wrong. I wish Dr. White all the luck in the world in his test. But until I see a demonstration, I remain extremely skeptical that a ring of capacitors can produce any negative energy density whatsoever.
  #14  
Old 11-10-2011, 01:03 AM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatial Rift 47 View Post
I've been unable to find if this Dr. Harold "Sonny" White has any academic affiliations, or even where he got his doctorate.
I wonder if he cut from the same cloth as Hugo de Garis, who I discovered while he was at Utah State University. His main accomplishment seems to have been dreaming big and using words that made people think "he sure is smart, maybe what he's talking about isn't pure crap; maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand his brilliance".

I'll have to file his name with de Garis's and keep a watch for future activity.
  #15  
Old 11-10-2011, 05:36 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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Thanks Spacial Rift 47. I was hoping that someone like you would respond.

I guess what confused me is that, given my limited understanding, it seems to be saying that he believes it can be done with a positive energy density.

One of the diagrams (on page 31 of the PDF, but labeled as page 21 on the document) states:
Quote:
  • The figure depicts a modified Michelson-Morley Interferometer setup that makes use of a 1 cm diameter toroidal-ring of positive energy density on one leg of the interferometer.
  • a He-Ne laser beam(λ = 633 nm) is split allowing one part of the beam to pass through the center of the ring and hence the spherical warp field region.
  • This warp field region will induce a relative phase shift between the split beams that could be detectable provided the magnitude of the phase shift is sufficient.
It seems to assume that the effect will be produced with a toroidal-ring of positive energy. Is he simply wrong about this? Does the paper give his reasons for believing this? Am I just completely misunderstanding the whole thing (a real possibility)?
  #16  
Old 11-10-2011, 05:47 AM
Lumpy Lumpy is offline
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Unless I'm misunderstanding, the proposed apparatus is simply for detecting a volume of negative energy, if any should happen to be there; not creating one.
  #17  
Old 04-22-2014, 09:17 AM
cmyk cmyk is offline
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Whoops. Wrong [zombie] thread.

Last edited by cmyk; 04-22-2014 at 09:17 AM..
  #18  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:27 AM
Hal Briston Hal Briston is offline
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Moderator Note

There is a new thread discussing this. Closing the zombie.
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