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#1
12-02-2011, 06:05 PM
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I finished Dune (the book) and I have some questions *spoilers!*
There will be spoilers for Dune and some of the other Dune books. So beware!
First of all, I enjoyed the book, but it didn't engross me like the other 2 books I read recently (Ender's Game and Dracula). Not to say Dune was worse, its a different type of book and have to be read differently, but parts of it dragged on longer than those other books. The things I've heard about Frank Herbert's epic saga in years prior was that it was a densely political booked framed by sci-fi. I would totally agree with that assessment. Dune is more about the struggles of politics and class of the people depicted than the eponymous desert planet. The sandworms, being huge parts of the mythology and catalyst for so many actions, are quite a small part of the storyline. They are there enough, I think, to not be a simple MacGuffin as their actions shape and facilitate action instead of being simply a prize to be striven for. The sprawling saga does one thing very well that usually bugs the hell out of me. It introduces a lot of universe-specific terms and ideas, phrases, and objects without losing me in the process. This is only a personal pet peeve but too much talk about some unpronounceable alien term like Lisan al-Gaib or Kwisatz Haderach will have me rolling my eyes and zoning over each mention. Its not that I don't like the ideas, but if there are too many introduced too quickly, it becomes a chore to remember what each one does and to integrate that idea into your enjoyment of the book. Mention a desert planet and I can relate, but mention a god-like being who knows the past and future and exists both living and dead and you better write that guy in well. Luckily, though Dune is dense with alien terminology, the book is vivid enough for me to follow even if I don't still understand all of the motivations of the characters. Paul is a great protagonist, even though the whole "Chosen One" thing has been done to death ever since Jesus decided to get himself killed. This was one of the few times where I've read about a whole Chosen One character without having flashbacks of Christian theology. I think maybe its because I feel Paul's pain and his loss, having his House destroyed, father killed, assets seized, and seemingly the entire Imperium looking for him. Even his birth was like an accident, as Jessica was supposed to have borne a girl instead of a boy. As such, to me at least, he never achieves the sort of invincible messiah complex that makes the story hard to separate from existing religious myth. The bad stuff wasn't just happening to him, it happened to everyone around him and even when he triumphed at the end, his victory is still tainted by the loss of his son. Speaking of the messiah thing, one aspect of his ascent was still confusing to me. I should mention that I have the 40th anniversary edition of the book and there's about another 50 pages of appendices in the back that I'm still reading, that might answer this and some of my other questions. But for the life of me, I can't figure out why Paul was such a reluctant messiah. In the first half of the book, he mentions that he found it uncomfortable that the Fremen see him as a potential savior. Given the enemies all around him and later the destruction of his House, why didn't he immediately embrace it? He has visions of this jihad with the green and black Atreides banner flying high, but he shies away from it instead of immediately using it. Why? Now I know from reading bits and pieces of the Dune universe that his son, Leto II goes on to rule for like 3500 years and turns into a sandworm god, was this Herbert setting that up? Because one battle with Paul and the Fremen on one side vs. a few legions of Sardaukar and Harkonnen doesn't seem like something Paul should be afraid to embrace. Another big question I've had from the beginning of the book is the Emperor's motives. Sure, it is explained later that the emperor joined up with the Baron to get rid of Leto because he was afraid of his rising power, but that doesn't make much sense to me. As the book says, whoever controls the spice, controls the universe, and whoever controls Dune controls the spice. If he was so afraid of Leto's growing power, why didn't he just let the Baron remain steward of Dune? If Leto was never put in charge of Dune, his power can only grow so much right? It seems like the emperor sealed his own doom as soon as he put the Atreides in charge of the freaking most important planet in the universe. And I don't get the Bene Gesserit either. A cabal of women with superhuman powers conspiring for some genetic breeding purpose of which only they know, yet no one thinks anything strange that Bene Gesserits are everywhere? Or, they think its strange but do nothing about it? It seems all of the Great Houses have rulers with Bene Gesserit wives or concubines, the emperor himself has BG Truthsayer. And the breeding program, what's the purpose? The Reverend Mother Helen Gaius Mohiam really freaked out when Alia was blabbling about her breeding program at the end (or was it Paul and Jessica blabbing about it? Those 2 scene took place like right next to each other). So what's the big secret? They want a superhuman, so how's that much different from what the Sardaukar is trained? That whole thing with Alia didn't make sense. Given Alia's past lives memory and her powers, it seems like she'd be a perfect conclusion to the breeding program. But the Reverend Mother was terrified of her and wanted her killed because she was an abomination. I read that as simply because she wasn't the one who created Alia, but more and more I think it doesn't make sense. Why did she have such an aversion to her? If she's not superior breeding, who is? On the same note, is that why Jessica was so against Paul picking up a Fremen wife like Chani? Was she still thinking of the endgame for all Bene Gesserits, that Chani couldn't bear a superkid and Paul had to go knock up someone of Imperial blood? That seems less like superior lineage and more like simply classism. With the Fremen rivaling the Sardaukar in terms of fighting prowess and toughness, with the spice coursing through their blood, why wouldn't she think Chani could bear a worthy child? So the old Baron was a fun character to read about. Cruel, cunning, clever....umm.....creamy. But why did he see no potential in Rabban and put all his efforts into making Feyd Rautha his successor? Feyd didn't really seem that impressive. Sure he's a great physical fighter, but his intelligence was hardly ever tested in the book. The 2 plans he had thought of (first the fake gladiator battle and then the attempted assassination of the Baron) had Thufir's help, didn't it? I know the 2nd one did, I can't remember if the first did. Eh, I guess its forgivable, he was played by Sting after all Weird thought: Did Jessica change the Water of Life by drinking it and then spitting it back out? If so, eww.... And what's the deal with no chapter numbers? Come on Frank, that's really annoying! Makes it hard to reference specific chapters ("its that one where Paul fights that guy in the cave...") Ok, I know I'm no published writer. I've never had a classic novel read by millions. But it really really bugged me when Herbert kept using the word "lighted" instead of "lit". Yeah, its a correct word, but still, it just sounds awkward (flame-lighted, lighted cavern, lighted by glowglobes....). At least use "lit" once! People talk really weird in Dune. They even think weirdly. I don't know what "Ah-h-h-h-h-h" is supposed to sound like. Is it a broken sound like talking into a fan? Or are you supposed to drag out the last syllable? And Fenring was just an over-the-top version of that. The guy sounds retarded I don't get Fenring. For a guy who at the end of the book, Paul admits could have killed him with a word, we get surprisingly little info on him. It was said that he was a failed Kwisatz Haderach because he's a genetic eunuch, but he's still powerful apparently. How did he fail? Why did he turn against the emperor at the end? So much unanswered questions about this guy Lastly, from the very beginning, it seems Suk School conditioning was not worth the money people are paying for it. Multiple times it was mentioned that those who went through it are reliable Imperial agents as they cannot be turned, but correct me if I'm wrong but all the Baron did to turn Yueh was kidnap his wife. So Suk School conditioning is about as effective as no conditioning. 
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#2
12-02-2011, 06:19 PM
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Well.
One of the things you should know going into Dune is that a great deal of it has Islamic (or even pre-Islamic) roots. The Fremen are, IIRC, mentioned as being a people of Misr. Misr is a name for Eqypt though I forget how far back it goes. You have to see Fremen believes as filtered through 20000 years of quasi-Islam and isolation. If you recall when the voice of their past is heard one of their cries against the emperor is 'THEY DENY US THE HAJJ!' By moving them and denying them the hajj they could no longer take a pilgrimage to Mecca to see the roots of their religion. Once viewed with some understanding of islam some of the fremen points become much less opaque (at least to me). Hell, the term 'mahdi' that they use for Paul is directly from arabic and means 'The one who will lead us to paradise' or near enough. As for Paul shying off from his destiny as he saw it he was dismayed at the death and destruction that the jihad would lead to. He saw the future and saw terrible acts in his name. By trying to avert that he was acting as a moral human and not a man of destiny. It's humanizing, in a way. I'll leave some of the other questions to more conversant folks as I'm just speaking off the top of my head. But do try and view the fremen through an arabic/islamic lens for a greater understanding.
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#3
12-02-2011, 06:35 PM
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And its 20000 years? Wow. I knew about the whole Butlerian Jihad and the 10000 years of history, but I didn't know that there was another 10000 before that which leads us to....the modern 20th century? Quite a lot of time to keep track of
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#4
12-02-2011, 07:15 PM
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Re Feyd-Rautha: Beast Rabban didn't appear all that intelligent to me. Remember the conclusion of the scene in the arena? Feyd-Rautha was able to rally the people to wild enthusiasm. That trait is frequently more useful in politics than a high IQ. Also Feyd-Rautha was able to understand the Baron and Pietr Vries' machinations early in the book. AS for listening to Thufir, a sign of wisdom is being able to take advice. Last edited by The_Peyote_Coyote; 12-02-2011 at 07:16 PM.
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#5
12-02-2011, 08:29 PM
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#6
12-02-2011, 10:38 PM
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As for the Bene Gesserit, at the time of Dune, the breeding program wasn't well-known to the general public. They were thought of as a religious/teaching order, who educated well-bred ladies to become the wives and concubines of the nobility. Which was true, as far as it goes. The fact that they were controlling the breeding of humanity was a secret. Remember how astonished Mohiam was when Paul correctly guessed what they were doing (breeding for a Kwisatz Haderach).
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#7
12-02-2011, 11:04 PM
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#8
12-02-2011, 11:39 PM
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#9
12-03-2011, 12:27 AM
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Last edited by Grumman; 12-03-2011 at 12:30 AM.
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#10
12-03-2011, 12:52 AM
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The giving Leto I Arrakis is a bit puzzling, but it may have been inevitable due to the problems Rabban was having that were getting worse. Nothing must interfere with the spice trade. By moving before the Landsaard the Emperor gets credit. But it is a trap and everyone knows it. It makes Leto very vulnerable during the transition. So much so that despite all the precautions, he is killed anyway.
Paul tries to avoid his fate not only because he doesn't want the killing of billions unleashed by his hand, but because he does not want the fate the ultimately befalls his son: to live thousands of years without his own humanity and never to die a real human death. I agree with what others have said about Alia. She is an abomination because she is never a real person on her own, and will be controlled by one of her ancestors. And be at the pinnacle of power. The same thing happens to Leto II, but he has a less psychotic personality mediating all of his ancestors. Perhaps one available only through Chani.
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#12
12-03-2011, 02:19 AM
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IIRC he conceived it as a trilogy and he wrote parts of the 2nd and 3rd before he was finished with the 1st, so yeah, more is revealed as you progress.
The Baron was a master manipulator, and had been feeding the Emporer subtle misinformation for years, the threat that Leto actually posed was different the what Shadam thought it was. Like Critical 1 says about the BG, you, the reader, know more about the spice than most of the players. The Guild navigators and the BG dependence on the spice was a closely guarded secret. The government thought of it as nothing more than a lucrative mining concession. It's roughly analagous to the US government forcing BP out in favor of Shell for all mideast oil production only to have someone in the company unite the whole region politically and militarily under themself.
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#13
12-03-2011, 02:24 AM
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12-03-2011, 02:38 AM
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Last edited by MrDibble; 12-03-2011 at 02:39 AM.
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#15
12-03-2011, 03:28 AM
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Giving the Arrakis fiefdom to Leto allows the Emperor to wash his hands when the Harkonnen attack and kill him, allowing him to say that it was just a simple act of inter-house warfare and that he had no part in it. The time between when the Atreides take over and when the trap is sprung is too brief for Leto to really take advantage of the fiefdom - he's still learning their customs, and trying to figure out how to do through benevolent and honest leadership what the Harkonnens have been doing through brutality and intimidation for over a century.
More to the point on Paul's reluctance, he's also beginning to see glimpses of what he comes to refer to in the sequels as "the Golden Path". Since you haven't read those yet i'm going to spoiler it, but to put it briefly; SPOILER:
Re: the Reverend Mother calling Alia an abomination, having the memories and personalities of thousands of ancestors rattling around in your brain is a dangerous thing, especially if one of your very recent ancestors is a murderous, sociopathic pedophile like Baron Harkonnen. Reverend Mothers go through decades of training and conditioning before they're able to take on Other Memory without going mad - Alia had it foisted on her before she was even born. In these kinds of cases, it's possible, and indeed likely, that one of the ancestor-memories floating around in her head could subsume her own personality and take control of her body, and that's the Abomination that Mohiam is afraid of. Regarding the Gesserits themselves, most of the galactic leadership DOESN'T trust them - anyone who's anyone know that everything they do serves their own agenda and nobody else's and that they can't be trusted any farther than you can throw them. They're so well-entrenched in galactic society, however, that they have no choice but to tolerate them, and any Great House or emperor that tried to defy them would end up on the wrong side of a revolution against them due to the influence they have over the common folk. They have an entire bureau, the Missionaria Protectiva, set up for exactly this sort of purpose - to quickly convince any group of people, anywhere in the world, that God and the Gesserits are on their side. The dying Reverend Mother who passes her Other Memory to Jessica is one of their agents. Fenring's presence in the book is more of a side note than anything else that even I missed the significance of it on the first read-through. The Bene Gesserit's original plan, which Jessica derailed, was for her daughter to be mated with Countess Fenring's son by Feyd-Rautha, and that that child would become the Kwizatz Haderach and also put an end to the feud between their Houses. He's essentially a spectator in a massive plan that's revolving around him, but which he is insignificant too. Tragic, really. Herbert never addresses the Suk school again after the first novel - my personal fanwank is that Yueh's betrayal was such a shock to the system that people lost confidence in Suk conditioning and the program came to an end not long thereafter, but I don't know how canonical that is.
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#16
12-03-2011, 04:46 AM
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So basically the Fremen were unstoppable militarily, and unless Paul was very careful they would conduct a crusade across the universe in his name, killing, raping and pillaging. The deaths from the battles alone would be horrendous, but the resulting political and economic chaos would have been even worse. And all this would have been done in the name of Paul, and in the name of House Atreides, a house that had spent millennia building a reputation of fairness and justice. If this had occurred Paul would have been the responsible for not only the death and destruction, but also for utterly destroying everything that his ancestors had built. That is what Paul was trying to avoid. Even after the battle with the Sraduakar, Pual was still terrified of the Jihad that would result if he were killed by Feyd, and he remains terrified right up until he dies. Quote:
The Emporer remained one of the three equally balanced powers of the universe because of his Sarduakar. There weren't many Sardaukar, but those few could take out any individual house with ease. That was how the balance of power was maintained. The Emporer couldn't take on all the Houses combined, none of the Houses individually could hope to take him on. The problem was that Leto had managed to construct a training regime to produce troops just as good as the Sardaukar. If that technique ever became common knowledge the Emporer was finished. No longer could the threaten the Houses with the Sardaukar because all the houses would have troops that were able to defeat them. Added to that Leto was personally popular with the other Houses, so even a small contingent of his Elite troops, combined with the standard troops of the other houses, would have seen the Emporer's power base evaporate. The trouble was that Leto hadn't done anything wrong. There was nothing illegal in training high quality troops. So the Emporer had to get rid of him, but he had to do so with total deniability and he had to do so fast before Leto realised he was defeated and passed on his training secrets to the other houses. There was no way that could be done safely while Leto remained on Caladan. The family had been there too long, they population was too loyal, the spy network was too effective. Leto had to be gotten off Caladan. However the Emporer couldn't just order Leto to move to some barren moon. He was popular and he had done nothing wrong. The only way he could be made to move without arousing suspicion from the other houses was to be offered an apparent reward. Since Caladan was such a rich planet, Dune, with it's wealth and the Choam directorate that went with it, was one of the few rewards that was plausible. That it was recently a Harkonnen stronghold only helped matters. Left to his own devices on Caladan, Leto would have grown to be a serious challenger to the Emporer and disrupted the balance of power, even though that was never his intent. Quote:
That's so far beyond the Sardaukar that there is no comparison. The Sardaukar are no more than elite athletes, they aren't actually superhuman. The KH is literally superhuman. Quote:
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#17
12-04-2011, 11:36 AM
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Whether she has those abilities because she was Preborn, or if that was another miscalculation of the Bene Gesserit breeding program, we don't know. It's unlikely that the BG suspected that the daughter they wanted from Jessica would have the prescience and male Other Memories. However, the BG only loathed her because she was a Preborn abomination, something they'd had many problems with in their own past. Jessica should have known better... but Jessica was kind of dumb for a BG.
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#18
12-04-2011, 11:41 AM
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#19
12-04-2011, 11:54 AM
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However, Jessica could have aborted the pregnancy. IIRC all the Bene Gesserit were capable of that. And particularly so as a Reverend Mother, since she then basically had conscious control over her body chemistry.
But, she was too sentimental about Leto, again, so she kept his kid even though she knew what she'd doomed Alia to.
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#20
12-04-2011, 12:05 PM
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#21
12-04-2011, 12:29 PM
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#23
12-04-2011, 01:29 PM
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[credit for this revelation goes to Crow the Robot (MST3K): "Oh, yeah, It's a great movie. Except in this part the director forgot to make things happen!"]
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#24
12-04-2011, 01:52 PM
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Regarding the Suk School conditioning. Thing is, Yueh's wife wasn't just his wife. She was a Bene Gesserit. And she used her secret BG techniques (apparently in the Dune universe, oral sex is a closely guarded BG secret) to brainwash him, even though/because she was also in love with him. So BG brainwashing met Suk brainwashing, and the BG won.
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#25
12-04-2011, 02:43 PM
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Last edited by njtt; 12-04-2011 at 02:44 PM.
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#26
12-04-2011, 03:42 PM
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#27
12-04-2011, 06:28 PM
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When they recommend "show, don't tell", Herbert tells. A lot. But you don't really notice it in Dune, because he ends up having to show a lot of the stuff, just to establish the setting. After the setting set-up is out of the way, it's off to Internal Dialogue City. (Really obvious in Lynch's Dune movie, with Paul's voiceover through the entire movie -- that was really annoying, and brought the realization of how much of the books' text is the same thing.) Destination: Void is sort of the height of his writing like that, by the way. Limited setting to introduce, and really limited action -- it's all characters sitting around lecturing each other. Even worse than God-Emperor of Dune, really, since that one has some characters doing stuff throughout. But, man, if you like that kind of SciFi, Herbert is really good at it. If you don't, though, it's probably snoozeville once the setting is established. I'd recommend trying his BuSab books, instead (Whipping Star & Dosadi Experiment).
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#28
12-05-2011, 04:01 PM
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#29
12-06-2011, 01:08 PM
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I wrote a bunch more questions I had but forgot it at home. I'll also have some spoiler questions for later books too, just a warning
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Here's a question that brings up: Was Leto planning on using his elite troops for offense, whether against the Emperor or the Harkonnens or were they simply for defense? Quote:
And speaking of the Guild, I find them very interesting because they are so mysterious. They're an actual Guild right? Like a Union almost? Can anybody join? How does a huge Guild like that not leak any secrets? No disgruntled employees? And how does all the rest of the Houses and the Imperials think the Guild is moving these ships if not for spice-based prescience? Quote:
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#30
12-06-2011, 01:27 PM
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So, about the Butlerian Jihad. A friend of mine once told me that even the Emperor couldn't start building the so-called "thinking machines" again if he wanted to, in order to remove the influence of mentats and the Guild. Now that I read the book, I realized there was this whole religious theme that my friend didn't mention to me.
Suppose people wanted some robots. After all, its been 10000 years since the war, and that only lasted about a hundred years. What are the chances of a rogue house, or IX doing that? Would that bring down the wrath of not only the Houses, but the Emperor, and the Guild (who probably wants to maintain their monopoly)? About religion. It was specifically mentioned that the Guild were probably agnostic, but everyone else seems to be a flavor of theism. Other than the guild, is atheism essentially dead in the Dune universe? It wasn't heavy-handed, or maybe it was just well-written, but I found the religions of Dune fascinating. Everyone seems to believe in something and follows the creed of the OC Bible, thou shalt not damage the soul, or something like that, and no one questions the fact that everyone's simply taking for granted the accepted existence of a soul. Its one of the most religious sci-fi books I've ever read! But given the controlled breeding of the Bene Gesserit, the fact that a drug replaces mysticism with a material biological reaction, I am having a difficult time attributing a reason as to why humans are so religious. They had machines that rebelled, so they are not unaware of artificial intelligence. People like the BG talk about past lives, but they got that through training and drugs. Why isn't Dune more atheistic? Don't get me wrong, I like the universe its created, and maybe there's no explanation except Herbert wanted it this way, but you have all these science-y things going on and yet everyone's a fundamentalist.
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#31
12-06-2011, 02:10 PM
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The Imperium was actually more of an economic state than a political one. CHOAM is mentioned a couple of times in Dune, without any real explanation of what it IS. CHOAM stands for Combine Honnette Ober Advancer Mercantiles, and it is the engine that makes the Imperium run. Economic importance IS political importance, and how many shares of CHOAM any given noble house has is a reflection of their power and influence in political circles. By the articles of the Great Convention, the Imperial House could not have more than 30-odd% of the shares in CHOAM outright. To get anything non-military done, the Emperor had to get some form of compromise with other Houses Major (the Houses Minor had too few votes to bother with and usually voted with the Great Houses instead of the Emperor). The majority of the Emperor's power lay in the Sardaukar (it's because of the Sardaukar that there even IS an Emperor). The Sardaukar were feared by most of the Houses Major because they knew that if they gave the Emperor legal cause to use them against that House, they were done. There were no troops in the Imperium that could equal the Sardaukar until Leto Atreides came along. Through personal loyalty, inspired choices in commanders, and a sense of responsibility to his people, he created a House Major force that was the equal, man to man, of the Sardaukar. Personally, he was loyal to the Emperor...remember that even knowing that Arrakis was probably a trap for him, he obeyed the order to take the fief. The Emperor was wrong about Leto's loyalty, but didn't know that, with Harkonnen whispering in his ear. The point is that there was the POSSIBILITY that this "upstart duke" could best the Sardaukar with his troops, and with that possibility the whole Imperium could crumble. Quote:
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Last edited by jayjay; 12-06-2011 at 02:11 PM.
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#32
12-06-2011, 02:15 PM
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Spoiler for the second book, but Alia doesn't stay sane. In Dune it seems Mohiam is just being a bitch, calling Alia an abomination. Turns out, she was right.
As far as the spice being needed by the guild, my understanding is that lots of people know the that guild needs the spice and why, but it's not common knowledge. It's only on Arrakis itself that poor people eat the spice. As to why everyone is religious, it's because the powers-that-be want them to be religious. The Bene Gesserit don't give away their secrets, they hide their techniques behind mysticism and bullshit. Religion is a tool of social control. Herbert wanted to create the Dune universe as socially and technologically static. Yes, future tech exists, but it's the same future tech that has been used for thousands of years. And so we have the feudal system--In Space. And swordsmen--In Space. And ninjas--In Space. And bedouin tribesmen--In Space. It's justified by a mix of technology and social control, and you can't change the technology because of the social control, and you can't change the social control without a change in technology. As to why the BG didn't pop their champagne corks and celebrate when they found out Paul was really the Kwisatz Haderach, well, that's pretty simple. They wanted a Kwisatz Haderach, but they wanted one under their control. Paul wasn't under their control, in fact he hated them. So yeah.
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#33
12-06-2011, 02:25 PM
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Wow, great explanations. I may actually pick up book 2 now that I see that it remains pretty interesting later on.
One more question then: So the BG didn't like Paul cause they can't control him. If they had a Kwisatz Haderach that they could control, what was their endgame? Break the 3 legs of the Imperium and rule over all of humanity? Something less ambitious?
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#34
12-06-2011, 02:34 PM
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#35
12-06-2011, 02:36 PM
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As you may have noticed, this sort of static society is very common in science fiction. And the reason is that writers spend a lot of time creating a balance of technology and sociology that will result in the particular sort of setting that they want to tell stories in. But if it's not static, then one invention or social movement later and your carefully constructed setting falls apart and transforms into something new. And now you can't write about Tokugawa era Japan IN SPACE, or Napoleonic naval warfare IN SPACE or the Cold War IN SPACE anymore, and your main character, the grizzled space pirate captain with the neutronium cutlass doesn't fit anymore.
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#36
12-06-2011, 02:51 PM
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#37
12-06-2011, 03:09 PM
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I'm also a huuuge fan of the Dune Encyclopedia (I got my very own copy for my birthday several years ago-- glee!) and would recommend that plus the first four books (up through God Emperor) as worth reading. They stand on their own: the remaining two Herbert books (Heretics and Chapterhouse) are good and interesting, but the first four really complete an arc. (And, yeah, avoid the prequels and such.)
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#38
12-06-2011, 03:32 PM
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The Bene Gesserit are super-conservative and religious/humanist because of this. And the BG have molded culture as they wanted -- so it is not surprising that it, too, is conservative. And religious/humanist... or whatever you'd call their particular ethos. Quote:
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#39
12-06-2011, 03:43 PM
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I remembered a couple of my questions from home that I had written down!
 Its been years since I saw the 1984 Dune movie and the 2003 Sci-Fi channel miniseries. I remembered that I thought the Dune movie was kinda weird, the climactic battle was fought with these weird handheld devices, I think they looked like door handles, that Paul and the Fremen would scream into and unleash some sort of sonic blast. I'm guessing that's where they got the Atreides-only Sonic Tanks from in the Dune games, because there was no mention of it anywhere in the books. From scattered reviews of the 2003 miniseries, I seem to recall that it was more accurate. Just exactly what differences where there between the books and each of these things? I liked the miniseries even though I watched all of it without ever reading Dune, but I think I was too young to really enjoy the movie when I last saw it probably on TV in the 90's. And my other question concerns Earth. Given that Dune is set like 20000 years in the future, do people still go to Earth? Is it still inhabited? Or is it like some ancient myth in the recesses of humanity's collective unconscious? I'm curious if it ever figures into the plot, as several sci-fi universes that I partake in treat Earth as some kind of mythical homeworld like we'd treat Atlantis today.
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#40
12-06-2011, 03:58 PM
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Last edited by jayjay; 12-06-2011 at 03:59 PM.
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#41
12-06-2011, 04:19 PM
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The Lynch movie's sonci weirding modules were added because in the books the Emperor is afraid of Leto because his soldiers are being trained to Sarduakar levels. But that was too complicated to explain, so they decided that the Atreides had a new technological secret weapon.
But of course, after 10,000 years of technological stagnation, now you're pulling a new secret weapon out of your ass? And how exactly are these sonic weapons better than an AK-47?
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#42
12-06-2011, 04:37 PM
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I cannot remember any reference to the current status of Earth in the novels. Apparently in the Dune Encylopedia it says that Earth was devastated by an asteroid strike around 2800AD, but then it was "reseeded" and became inhabitable again, if not hugely significant: http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Terra
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#43
12-06-2011, 04:47 PM
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There was a lot of "tech" and procedures shown in the movie that was defensive in nature. (To prevent assasinations, I presume.) Like the personal shields that stopped fast moving objects, but not slow ones, and sensors for detecting known explosives, poisons, and power sources. Something [a weapon] as inert as a door handle that gets it's power from "the voice" (or some similar technique) bypasses a lot of those defenses. So Atredeis has a weapon that shields won't stop, nor sets of any detectors (making surprise attacks possible). That might scare folks.
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#44
12-06-2011, 04:53 PM
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Yeah, that's why guns aren't good weapons, you have personal shields, which is why everyone uses swords. Of course this is really only because aristocrats don't seem aristocrat-y unless they're swordfighting.
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#45
12-06-2011, 04:54 PM
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#46
12-06-2011, 04:59 PM
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Thw main difference I recall in the Sci-Fi miniseries was that Irulan was given an expanded role to make up for losing her expository bits at the beginning of each chapter. The second miniseries deviated a bit more - the Duncan ghola is called "Duncan" from the beginning instead of "Hayt", and Leto's transformation doesn't seem to set him up very well to become the God Emperor. I did find them prfetgty enjoyable, despite the low budget (matte backgrounds in 2000?)
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#47
12-06-2011, 07:14 PM
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I also thought Susan Sarandon was a poor choice to play Princess Wensicia opposite Julie Cox's (Dowager) Empress Irulan. Nothing against Sarandon but it was too distracting imagining her to be the younger sister. She's 28 years older than Cox for crying out load.
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#48
12-06-2011, 07:23 PM
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#49
12-06-2011, 09:06 PM
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I'm home now, looks like there's 2 more questions that I had.
Other than the Fremen, who else knows that sandworms make spice? My other question may not be answerable yet. My version of the book is dated 2005 with an afterward by Brian Herbert. In it, he mentions that the upcoming Dune 7 novel will complete the Dune series and be the final book. He also mentions that there's a big secret that will be revealed. His exact words are: "Frank Herbert was working on that project [Dune 7] when he died in 1986, and it would have been the third book in a trilogy that he began with Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune. In those novels he set up a great mystery, and now, almost two decades after his death, the solution is the most closely guarded secret in science fiction." Does anyone know what mystery he's talking about? Did Dune 7 come out yet and what is the solution? I'm curious but if I have to slog through 5 and 6 more books to find out, I don't think I'll be able to do it. That was 6 years ago when he wrote that, something must have leaked since, right? I'm not sure if I'm going to read another book or two. I'm pretty certain I'm not going to read 5 more novels to catch up to the series. Quote:
Last edited by YogSosoth; 12-06-2011 at 09:07 PM.
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#50
12-06-2011, 09:18 PM
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Dune 7 (or at least Brian Herbert and Kevin Hackerson's version of the notes Herbert's father left behind) was published as two books: Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune. Due to my absolutely unbending vow to never read another of the Herbert/Hackerson Dune books, I've never read them, but their Wiki synopses sound just as dire as all the rest of the prequels/sequels they've done.
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