SWTOR General Discussion

[Antinor01]

I've been playing a Jedi Knight and a Sith Inquisitor. Taking my time and I'm mostly through the prologues on both. I made my own lightsaber last night!

The storylines are amazing and very well crafted. So far it's really drawing me in and feels like the choices I make really do have an impact. (Even if it is just illusion)

I think I like my Sith better than my Jedi, but that could be because I really love zapping the hell out of people with the various lightning attacks. Hehehe.

[wolfman]

Hehe, The Jawas are pretty funny.

paraphrasing.
"You go blow up Genoshians, we give you discount, everybody happy. Well Genosians not happy but who cares"

[pancakes3]

so... how do join this guild?

[Cyberhwk]

Originally Posted by pancakes3

so... how do join this guild?

Just post your name and someone should give you an invite next time they see you on.

[RickJay]

Some more thoughts as I get into the game:

1. There is at least one awwwwesome callback to KOTOR.

2. The writing and quests get better as you go along.

3. I find the skill trees just unbelievably, exceptionally, profoundly disappointing. IT's World of Warcraft, nothing more; they look the same, work the same, same number of specializations. It's profoundly, incredibly lame.

I know WOW did well with specializations but surely to God there's some other way to do this?

4. Another thing stolen from WOW I hate is "rank" spells. When I go back to my trainer to learn new stuff at lvel X, what I usually use is another "Rank" of the spell I already know. Look, here's Force Lightning Level 4.

That's just super lame, too, because it doesn't serve a purpose. Getting better Force Lightning could be achieved by simply tying its power into your level; if you go up in level your Force Lightning (or whatever) then increases in power. This is actually an area where KOTOR did skills BETTER than TOR is doing it.

I loved World of Warcraft too but lifting their spells and skills formats clean was not well advised. It's boring, and like WOW doesn't make a great deal of logical sense when it comes to spell levels.

5. So... wait... crafting is just dispatching my companion for awhile? That's it?

6. I am surprised and pleased at the quality of writing in the Sith side. They're evil, sort of, but not universally so, and a light side path works. the Sith should have a reason to exist beyond "Gentlemen, to evil!" and they're getting there. It's very good.

7. I am very, very impressed with the stability of the software. I have had no real problems at all. For a new MMP that's amazing.

On the other hand I miss a lot of tools I'm used to. There's no useful LFG function, few guild functions, no voice chat that I can find.

[smiling bandit]

Originally Posted by RickJay

I loved World of Warcraft too but lifting their spells and skills formats clean was not well advised. It's boring, and like WOW doesn't make a great deal of logical sense when it comes to spell levels.

Heh. The irony, of course, is that WoW dumped that some time back.

[Skammer]

Originally Posted by RickJay

5. So... wait... crafting is just dispatching my companion for awhile? That's it?

This has advantages and disadvantages over the WoW sysem. On the one hand, you can (I suppose) send multiple crew members (when you get them) away on simultaneous crafting missions, and you're free to travel/quest in the meantime. This is nicer than having to channel a crafting spell like in WoW, and you don't have to find a specific zone or item like an anvil.

On the other hand, crafting takes longer (several minutes for mid-level items) and you can only do one at a time apparently. I'd love to send my crewmember off to make as many blaster barrels as I have the mats for but it doesn't look like that's an option.

In terms of the gathering skill of Scavenging, I'm finding that super easy to level up. I think my scavenging skill level is around 72 already and I'm only just level 14. Investigation is taking longer only because I'm reluctant to spend 100 credits on each mission.

[willthekittensurvive?]

one nice thing about using your companions to do the crafting is that they can use the materials in the bank/holding bay

[wolfman]

Originally Posted by Skammer

On the other hand, crafting takes longer (several minutes for mid-level items) and you can only do one at a time apparently. I'd love to send my crewmember off to make as many blaster barrels as I have the mats for but it doesn't look like that's an option.

You can Queue up to 5 per crewmember

[Skammer]

Thanks Wolfman, I'll have to try that.

[Quimby]

Something I couldn't find an answer for: does it cost credits to store things in the Cargo hold?

[Arrogance Ex Machina]

Originally Posted by Quimby

Something I couldn't find an answer for: does it cost credits to store things in the Cargo hold?

Nah, it's completely free - and very handy for all the crafting stuff, as somebody already said. Shame it doesn't autostack. That's something so basic it's hard to understand why they haven't gotten it to work.

[Cyberhwk]

So I'm quite confused about crafting so far. As best I can tell I spend money to send off a companion to either gather crap I don't need or build crappy modifications that are levels below what I've already got so I can just take them apart again for the off chance of learning how to make a slightly less crappy (but still inferior) mod.

When does this pay off? So far I've sunk thousands of credits into it and haven't made a single useful item. I send them out and for 100 credits they bring back crystals I've already got 90 of (literally 90). I keep getting Lightsabers off mob drops that are far superior to what I can make myself.

I'm about 150 in Treasure Hunting and about 90-100 in Artifice and Archeology. I'm this close to just switching to Slicing and start padding my bank account for my speeder.

[Headrush042]

Artifice seems like it takes a huge amount of work to really pay off -- the real use is being able to make very specific mods that suit your needs better than the quest/token/loot you find, but that requires a crapton of reverse engineering at every tier. I'm starting to run into a similar problem with synthweaving -- it was easy to stay all best-in-slot crafting my own armor till about the mid-20s, but now I need to RE to purple level or crit a blue for the augment slot to make it worth it, which is just hugely frustrating.

[DMC]

Playing a Sith Juggernaut at the moment and am enjoying the game quite a bit. I never realized what a difference voice acting can make when it comes to questing. I'm also suprised by just how many different abilities it tanks to be an effective tank. I have two rows of abilities that I typically use in battle, and could use more slots on the screen at once. I'll probably work on hotkeys for some of them as I get more comfortable (just level 33 at the moment).

I'm currently on Alderaan, which is quite beautful, and man this place is huge. I'm gathering as I go along, but am going to hold off on crafting for now. It's an expensive hobby, and I'm guessing money becomes less of an object at 50. With any luck, the global market kiosks will have become more active by then as well.

[elninost0rm]

On the topic of crafting, one thing I would like to see is the option to send reverse engineered mats (or any mats, really) to your cargo hold. Yeah, it's a little cheesy, but I have no issue with only being allowed to send those things. Being able to craft from your cargo hold is great, but then you end up with a whole lot of RE'd mats in your pack anyway. It's somewhat self-defeating. They got it right by allowing your companion to self gray goods and by allowing them to craft out of the cargo hold, but not being able to send things never really made any sense to me.

I always thought that there should be a way of accessing a cargo hold remotely or at least making them far more abundant than they are. There should be one in every spot that has a taxi, and in larger city-planets like Coruscant, there should be multiple locations.

But that's just me.

On another note, I picked up Biochem for my trooper (whom I'm enjoying far more than my consular), and the leveling seems pretty easy. There seem to be WAY more plants to harvest than, say, artifacts/crystals in Artifice.

Yet another tangent: Make sure you sell half-decent items for what you think is a fair price on the market. Don't just sell them to a vendor for 100 credits. Mostly every Prototype item (blue) and higher that I've placed on the market has sold for 1,000 or more credits. The funny part is that they're old items achieved by earlier quests but people are too anxious to wait. That's one of the bigger mistakes new players make to games like SWTOR/WoW: they die once and go to the market to clean out their account for shiny new things which will be obsolete in a day or two of play.

[Quimby]

FYI I discovered a bug and Customer Service confirmed it was a known issue they are working on fixing. If you get a Commendation sent to your in-game e-mail as a reward for a quest and pick it up, it doesn't get added to Currency but rather just sits in your inventory taking up a slot.

So if you get one, until the bug is fixed I suggest just leave it in the e-mail so you don't waste the slot.

[elninost0rm]

Originally Posted by Quimby

FYI I discovered a bug and Customer Service confirmed it was a known issue they are working on fixing. If you get a Commendation sent to your in-game e-mail as a reward for a quest and pick it up, it doesn't get added to Currency but rather just sits in your inventory taking up a slot.

So if you get one, until the bug is fixed I suggest just leave it in the e-mail so you don't waste the slot.

Yeah I noticed that as well. I deleted the commendation because I couldn't really be arsed for just one.

[wolfman]

I started artifice on my main, and to be honest, I think the system needs a blot of work. Too much effort for very minimal use, and about half the nodes are bugged.

My Smuggler took armoring and scavenging, and it is much better. Every Strong or elite droid turns into a scavenge pile. I haven't actually crafted anything yet, but the gathering ease seems like it will be much less annoying.

[elninost0rm]

Originally Posted by wolfman

I started artifice on my main, and to be honest, I think the system needs a blot of work. Too much effort for very minimal use, and about half the nodes are bugged.

My Smuggler took armoring and scavenging, and it is much better. Every Strong or elite droid turns into a scavenge pile. I haven't actually crafted anything yet, but the gathering ease seems like it will be much less annoying.

Yeah, this is true of Biochem as well. Bioanaylsis is basically all of those vased plants you see lining various city areas. There are probably loads of them on places like Alderaan as well. I'm about 30% through Coruscant's quest line and I think I'm at 80 Bioanalysis already.

I just found that Artifice wasn't all that rewarding. I kept leveling it thinking "okay, eventually I'll be able to make something good for myself!"

All I ever made was a +4 endurance red saber crystal early in the game since I didn't have access to one. Pretty much a wash. I'm sure there is some good end-game stuff, but it's such a niche market. I suppose saber users make up half (or more based on movie fanboys) of the population, but Biochem is nice because EVERYONE uses stims. It also really only benefits your weapon slot (unless I'm mistaken)

[Arrogance Ex Machina]

Originally Posted by wolfman

My Smuggler took armoring and scavenging, and it is much better. Every Strong or elite droid turns into a scavenge pile. I haven't actually crafted anything yet, but the gathering ease seems like it will be much less annoying.

My Imperial Agent has Armortech and Scavenging as well (also Underworld Trading for the blue metals), and both my agent and companion are wearing roughly 4-5 pieces I've done. It is quite dependant on luck with the crit craftings and random reverse engineerings, but so far it hasn't been too hard to keep making useful things. I just regret selling some of my old materials at one point, could've used that stuff to make things for my alt.

Got Biochem, Bioanalysis and Slicing for my tank alt and that seems good too, though not being able to create blue stuff without Diplomacy is a bit annoying. Still, green medpacks and stims are still better than what you'd have without the crafting.

[Skammer]

I had an orange-level lightsaber drop from a random mob on Dromand Kaas last night. I ended up selling it in chat for 650 credits but I suppose I could have gotten a lot more. Unfortunately I couldn't use it; it requred Light level 1 and my sorcerer is Dark.

Speaking of my sorcerer, he's up to 16 now and I'm really enjoying the storyline. With my companion tanking and me healing we can take down most mobs as long as we don't pull too many at once. It just might take a while.

[Theios]

Originally Posted by Cyberhwk

I'm about 150 in Treasure Hunting and about 90-100 in Artifice and Archeology. I'm this close to just switching to Slicing and start padding my bank account for my speeder.

This was me last week. 130 Armormech and was very, very broke. Although I could craft nice items, I wasn't questing in the zones that had the mats, so I couldn't make them. Then I noticed that I could get decent (and sometimes better) gear off the commendation or specialty goods venders.

So... I dropped armormech for slicing. Then power leveled slicing while putting all my salvaging mats on the GTN. Now I'm rolling in credits, and still have decent gear. (orange mod gear is great!)

...

I normally enjoy crafting, and had I not been going broke with it, I would have stuck it out. But something seems 'off' with it right now, so I'll wait and pick it up again later. I've been leveling up the two support skills for it, so it won't be too difficult.

[mlees]

Originally Posted by elninost0rm

Yeah I noticed that as well. I deleted the commendation because I couldn't really be arsed for just one.

I stuck it in the bank. I'm hoping that it'll get patched into the currency wallet.

[Arrogance Ex Machina]

Slicing got nerfed in today's patch though, so I'd hold on switching to it until we see just how bad the nerf was.

[Theios]

Originally Posted by Arrogance Ex Machina

Slicing got nerfed in today's patch though, so I'd hold on switching to it until we see just how bad the nerf was.

And here I was all bored at work, when I could be on the SWTOR forums watching the Nerd Rage meltdown.

[mlees]

Originally Posted by Arrogance Ex Machina

Slicing got nerfed in today's patch though, so I'd hold on switching to it until we see just how bad the nerf was.

Do you have any details on that?

Are they just nerfing the amount of credits you loot from the lockboxes?

[wolfman]

Relevant patch notes:

Rewards from Slicing have been reduced to bring them into balance with other skills.
Adjusted incorrect values for medium slicing boxes.

[Theios]

The money maker with Slicing was doing the Bountiful and Rich missions. You would typically get a lot more credits out of the resulting lockbox than you paid in running the mission. On average, it looks like it was more than double what you put into it (average and moderate netted much less).

There is a guy in the forums who was collecting data pre-nerf in a Google Doc. He has now added a tab of data for post-nerf. The data is still coming in, but it looks like a pretty significant kick in the shorts for Slicing.


Now... This is all for mission running. I'm curious to see if the boxes from world slicing nodes have changed in anyway. It would be nice if they increased the credits in those boxes to compensate. Still make the skill profitable, but make you actually work for it like everyone else does.

[mlees]

Originally Posted by wolfman

Relevant patch notes:

Ok, thanks. (I'm at work, no lookie at game sites for me, here.)

[Arrogance Ex Machina]

Been reading on a few MMO-boards and sounds like Slicing isn't really worth it any more, unless you hate crafting and want to use it as a filler skill. Going to switch to Diplomacy on my alt so I can make blue/epic Biochem things. This was expected so I'm not really annoyed, anyways.

[RickJay]

It's not the most intuitive game ever; while I can send guys away on missions, (well, one guy, Khem Val) I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how to make stuff.

[Headrush042]

Originally Posted by RickJay

It's not the most intuitive game ever; while I can send guys away on missions, (well, one guy, Khem Val) I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how to make stuff.

Same way you send him on missions. You bring up the crew interface, click on the crafting skill, and assign him to make stuff. You can queue up 5 items at a time and they'll appear in your inventory as they get made.

[pancakes3]

Yiski level 16 sith sorcerer. guild me, please.

[Cyberhwk]

Originally Posted by Arrogance Ex Machina

Slicing got nerfed in today's patch though, so I'd hold on switching to it until we see just how bad the nerf was.

DAMN IT! Double whammy. People saw this coming so I seriously considered switching to Slicing a few days ago so I could get what I could before this happened. Too late now.

I'm not going broke with Artifice, I've got about 25K credits while I'm still 6 levels out from my Speeder. I just want to know when it stops being a waste of time.

[Skammer]

Originally Posted by pancakes3

Yiski level 16 sith sorcerer. guild me, please.

We don't have a Sith-side doper guild yet, but if you're on the same server I'd join you in one. I also have a lvl 16 sorcerer .

[DigitalC]

Well the storylines are great but the actual gameplay is vastly inferior to other current games like Rift and WoW. I can see myself playing about 3 months, finishing a couple storylines and then moving on to a better game.

[Love Rhombus]

Sorry if this has been mentioned: is there a demo I could try before buying the whole game?

[Arrogance Ex Machina]

Originally Posted by Love Rhombus

Sorry if this has been mentioned: is there a demo I could try before buying the whole game?

Nope. MMOs usually don't start their trial keys until much later, when the first wave has subsided.

[Cyberhwk]

Well I'm trying an experiment. I took some of my excess crap and listed it on the Galactic Trade Network. Maybe that's the key to your Crew Skills becoming viable. I sold a few things right off, but currently have about another 40 listings. I listed some at below suggested price and some at significantly higher. I think the Nextor Crystals are suggested at 50 a piece or something like that, but the only ones listed was a stack of 6 for 2000. So I listed a stack of 4 for 1000. Hoping for some price fixing cooperation. If I log on to a boatload of cash tomorrow I'll let you guys know.

Over at SWTOR.com, Slicers are gathering their torches and pitchforks.

[Love Rhombus]

Originally Posted by Arrogance Ex Machina

Nope. MMOs usually don't start their trial keys until much later, when the first wave has subsided.

Thanks. It looks really interesting, my budget is just too tight right now.

[elninost0rm]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

Well the storylines are great but the actual gameplay is vastly inferior to other current games like Rift and WoW. I can see myself playing about 3 months, finishing a couple storylines and then moving on to a better game.

This. I'll probably get to 50, and maybe an alt to 50. Do a little PvP, do a few ops, realize it's another gear chase with no significant end-game (see: PvP, take a page from DAoC's book please...) and then move on. It almost always happens. The only MMO I played for a serious length of time was DAoC, and that's because the PvP was (is) remarkable.

[martu]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

Well the storylines are great but the actual gameplay is vastly inferior to other current games like Rift and WoW. I can see myself playing about 3 months, finishing a couple storylines and then moving on to a better game.

Why do you think the gameplay is vastly inferior to WoW? I think one could accuse it of not being revolutionary but 'vastly inferior'?

My new favourite thing - sitting at a dialog option for over 5 minutes not knowing which option to choose because the choice is hard. I'm already playing my IA differently to how I intended due to how the class story has panned out so far, great stuff.

[elninost0rm]

Originally Posted by martu

Why do you think the gameplay is vastly inferior to WoW? I think one could accuse it of not being revolutionary but 'vastly inferior'?

My new favourite thing - sitting at a dialog option for over 5 minutes not knowing which option to choose because the choice is hard. I'm already playing my IA differently to how I intended due to how the class story has panned out so far, great stuff.

Yeah, it's not 'vastly inferior', but almost nothing is at all superior. Yeah, there's dialogue and it can be quite engrossing, but the game will depend on end-game at the end of the day. Bioware RPGs are awesome, but like any RPG, there is seldom much replay short of different characters and such. Separate storylines help with that for sure, but open-world PvP is just win. Warzones are fun, but you can't really compare it.

This game is good for the true RP'ers. The ones that play RPG games for the sheer delight of laboring over dialogue choices, exploration, etc. The problem is that you'll have way too many people migrating from WoW and other traditional MMO's where the objective is grind, blast through quests, get to 50, raid, and PvP. I just don't seeing it retaining a large playerbase for terribly long. There's almost nothing revolutionary, the talent/skill system is an exact WoW replica re-skinned, and the gameplay is relatively clunky and unintuitive. Most importantly, there is nothing that will keep a player re-subbing. I suppose you could finish all 8 storylines, which will take quite awhile, but MMO's should measure success in sub retention.

They'll sell their millions of copies, sure, but that'll probably be the extent of it.

[RickJay]

I think elninostorm has a point here. And I'm a Bioware fanboy of the first order who plans on playing every class's story out.

But still, unless there's more content here or improvements in the future, it's not going to be a significant thorn in WoW's side. What this game has over WoW is the RPG aspect, the dialogue, and it's freakin' awesome, but once you've played that out I don't see what there is to recommend the game. They haven't done anything in terms of the GAME that's remotely original.

[elninost0rm]

Originally Posted by RickJay

I think elninostorm has a point here. And I'm a Bioware fanboy of the first order who plans on playing every class's story out.

But still, unless there's more content here or improvements in the future, it's not going to be a significant thorn in WoW's side. What this game has over WoW is the RPG aspect, the dialogue, and it's freakin' awesome, but once you've played that out I don't see what there is to recommend the game. They haven't done anything in terms of the GAME that's remotely original.

I get so many people in General saying things like "It's so revolutionary! The storylines and dialogue are out of this world!". While that might be true, the concept of storylines and engaging dialogue is as old as RPGs themselves. Hordes of people seem to think that the majority of the playerbase is going to stick around for years.

This simply isn't the case. The majority of MMO players are from WoW and similar games where the objective is what I mentioned above: level, explore new talents and skills, raid, and PvP. The social aspect is what makes them fun. People love competing for things like power, the latest and greatest items, and pride in knowing they just killed a respected player in PvP. That's what MMOs are about. Once you complete the storylines, what's left underneath besides another WoW clone?

A progressive and meaningful end-game is how you retain subs. WoW was able to pull this off with expansions, but those have a limited lifespan. The answer? PvP. Progressive PvP that rewards skilled players and those willing to commit the time. Dark Age of Camelot was never a hugely popular game due to things like advertising and such, but they will always be my favorite PvP (or Realm vs. Realm) game. Open-world with a progressive ranking system that benefited those that put in the time and effort.

[Skammer]

While this game may not surpass WoW in those elements other than storytelling (where it is vastly superior), I don't see how it's at all inferior. Compare it to the content of vanilla WoW. SWTOR has at least as much potential for expansion and growth. If they continue to create new content that is as engrossing as the launch content, it will be be way more interesting than anything WoW has come up with in a long time.

This simply isn't the case. The majority of MMO players are from WoW and similar games where the objective is what I mentioned above: level, explore new talents and skills, raid, and PvP. The social aspect is what makes them fun. People love competing for things like power, the latest and greatest items, and pride in knowing they just killed a respected player in PvP. That's what MMOs are about. Once you complete the storylines, what's left underneath besides another WoW clone?

A progressive and meaningful end-game is how you retain subs. WoW was able to pull this off with expansions, but those have a limited lifespan. The answer? PvP.

Doesn't SWTOR have all this?

And I disagree with you about PvP. It's important for some players, but I'll bet a minority of WoW players do much PvP. Besides, Star Wars has a PvP system. Is it that much inferior to WoW's? I've done a fair bit of WoW PvP but I haven't checked out SWTOR's PvP yet.

You haven't really pointed out anything that makes SWTOR inferior to WoW, only things that are better or the same.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by elninost0rm

A progressive and meaningful end-game is how you retain subs. WoW was able to pull this off with expansions, but those have a limited lifespan. The answer? PvP.

That's a depressing answer to me because I have zero interest in PvP (especially in WoW, where it was effectively a separate game, requiring entirely different equipment) but regrettably, you're probably right to some extent. I disagree that there's nothing revolutionary about adding the dialogue and storylines; it's the first MMO to actually have active roleplaying that can affect the game. That's new, and it's awesome.

Skammer makes the salient point, which is that the game's lifespan will depend on their ability to add content. If they keep adding stories - be it expansions and level increases, or new classes - I will keep playing. I don't see why in theory you couldn't keep adding content, but it's an investment-heavy way of retaining subscriptions.

[martu]

Originally Posted by RickJay

That's a depressing answer to me because I have zero interest in PvP (especially in WoW, where it was effectively a separate game, requiring entirely different equipment) but regrettably, you're probably right to some extent. I disagree that there's nothing revolutionary about adding the dialogue and storylines; it's the first MMO to actually have active roleplaying that can affect the game. That's new, and it's awesome.

Skammer makes the salient point, which is that the game's lifespan will depend on their ability to add content. If they keep adding stories - be it expansions and level increases, or new classes - I will keep playing. I don't see why in theory you couldn't keep adding content, but it's an investment-heavy way of retaining subscriptions.

Fortunately Bioware are well aware of this a Sneak Peek from James Ohlen

Originally Posted by James Ohlen

Next month we're going to be releasing a new Flashpoint and an expanded Operation. The new Flashpoint involves a plague that could have significant repercussions across the galaxy. It takes place on a brand new world and involves some pretty epic battles. I can’t go into much detail, but be prepared for something different. The expanded Operation takes the existing Karagga’s palace scenario and more than triples it in size. It includes three new boss monsters and some pretty epic set pieces.

[elninost0rm]

Originally Posted by Skammer

While this game may not surpass WoW in those elements other than storytelling (where it is vastly superior), I don't see how it's at all inferior. Compare it to the content of vanilla WoW. SWTOR has at least as much potential for expansion and growth. If they continue to create new content that is as engrossing as the launch content, it will be be way more interesting than anything WoW has come up with in a long time.

Doesn't SWTOR have all this?

And I disagree with you about PvP. It's important for some players, but I'll bet a minority of WoW players do much PvP. Besides, Star Wars has a PvP system. Is it that much inferior to WoW's? I've done a fair bit of WoW PvP but I haven't checked out SWTOR's PvP yet.

You haven't really pointed out anything that makes SWTOR inferior to WoW, only things that are better or the same.

I'm not saying that PvP is necessary to most players. I acknowledge that it isn't. I do know that an end-game is critical to an MMO. I suppose WoW succeeded in this with almost entirely PvE by adding new content, but that success is started to fade. A good run in the sun, though, to be sure.

RickJay, you're right, as is Skammer. Adding new content is a winning formula as long as you find ways to keep the subscriber interested. Sometimes merely tacking on levels, adding a few raids, and adding some new abilities does not work. It worked with WoW, but there are undoubtedly documented cases of where that really doesn't work.

SWTOR has potential in that department with a solid hold on storylines, and it came out at a good time during (arguably) WoW's downswing.

That said, PvP is not for everyone. A lot of people try a PvP-heavy game and can't hack it for one reason or another and quit. It's definitely not for everyone. That said, it always retains a thriving core playerbase because there's no "end", so to speak.