The Straight Dope

Go Back   Straight Dope Message Board > Main > Elections

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 12-29-2011, 08:32 AM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 67,183
I just heard on the radio that Bachmann is now endorsing Paul. So, there's that.
Reply With Quote
Advertisements  
  #102  
Old 12-29-2011, 08:51 AM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 30,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
I just heard on the radio that Bachmann is now endorsing Paul. So, there's that.
No, the head of her Iowa campaign has defected and is now endorsing Paul.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 12-29-2011, 09:08 AM
StusBlues StusBlues is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I'm not a Ron Paul supporter, I just like the idea of him being the Republican nominee. I look forward to hearing Obama losing his cool and saying things like "what the fuck?" and "holy shit!" on national tv and have everyone in America say "I was thinking the same thing."
I think you cut right to the point there. Obama is to Ron Paul as Ron Paul was to Bruno.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 12-29-2011, 12:14 PM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buchanan View Post
I agree with his comment about the TSA workers and their looks. The trigger for the creation of the TSA and the extensive searches were Arab terrorists, 9/11, the shoe bomber, etc.; its therefore ironic that a greater percentage of middle easterners work for the TSA than exist in American society overall, and these same folks are the ones searching the traditional American majority population while we refuse to racially profile (like, for example, what the Israelis do to every Palestinian who walks into David Ben Gurion airport).
This shows a stunning level of ignorance about a subject that clearly has you quite worked up.

The shoe bomber wasn't a Middle Easterner. Nor for that matter was the underwear bomber or the guy who shot up the recruiting center in Kansan, nor were a host of other wannabe Jihadis.

In fact, John Walker Lindh IIRC was blonde-haired and blue-eyed as was Pierre Robert, the infamous "blue-eyed Amir".

Moreover, Middle Easterners aren't a "race" and the idea that you can tell who is an who isn't by looking at them is simply absurd to anyone who's ever visited there.

For example, most people in Syria and Lebanon, look as "white" as people in Europe.

Here's Bashar Assad, the President of Syria.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Basha...w=1280&bih=603

Obviously, there are quite a few, including myself, who are significantly darker than most Europeans, but outside of North Africa, we're hardly typical.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 12-29-2011, 12:29 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 67,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
This shows a stunning level of ignorance about a subject that clearly has you quite worked up.

The shoe bomber wasn't a Middle Easterner. Nor for that matter was the underwear bomber or the guy who shot up the recruiting center in Kansan, nor were a host of other wannabe Jihadis.

In fact, John Walker Lindh IIRC was blonde-haired and blue-eyed as was Pierre Robert, the infamous "blue-eyed Amir".

Moreover, Middle Easterners aren't a "race" and the idea that you can tell who is an who isn't by looking at them is simply absurd to anyone who's ever visited there.

For example, most people in Syria and Lebanon, look as "white" as people in Europe.

Here's Bashar Assad, the President of Syria.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Basha...w=1280&bih=603

Obviously, there are quite a few, including myself, who are significantly darker than most Europeans, but outside of North Africa, we're hardly typical.
Fortunately, they can be identified by DNA. Once the current round of "vaccinations" is finished, yo- . . . *ahem* . . . they'll all be safely rounded up, don't you worry!
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 12-30-2011, 09:34 PM
Terraplane Terraplane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN Quoting Ron Paul*
"Employee rights are said to be valid when employers pressure employees into sexual activity," Paul wrote. "Why don't they quit once the so-called harassment starts? Obviously the morals of the harasser cannot be defended, but how can the harassee escape some responsibility for the problem? Seeking protection under civil rights legislation is hardly acceptable."
Handwave this away however you want, nobody's going to believe you or care. He's done. Forever.

*Link

Last edited by Terraplane; 12-30-2011 at 09:34 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 12-31-2011, 10:34 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraplane View Post
Handwave this away however you want, nobody's going to believe you or care. He's done. Forever.

*Link
C'mon, Lew Rockwell or someone probably wrote the book and Ron Paul never realized there were offending passages in it. Besides, that's ancient history and did you realize the Austrian economists have predicted all of our economic troubles and the government has too much power and Ron Paul is really really sincere.

He's gonna win, wait and see.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 12-31-2011, 11:32 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Here's another potential source of major embarrassment for Ron Paul - his affiliation with the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) (he's a lifetime member who has addressed their annual meeting).

"Though it describes itself as "non-partisan",[7] AAPS is generally recognized as politically conservative.[6][8][9][10] According to Mother Jones, "despite the lab coats and the official-sounding name, the docs of the AAPS are hardly part of mainstream medical society. Think Glenn Beck with an MD."[10]

The organization opposes mandatory vaccination,[11] universal health care[12] and government intervention in healthcare.[10][13] The AAPS has characterized the effects of the Social Security Act of 1965, which established Medicare and Medicaid, as "evil" and "immoral",[14] and encouraged member physicians to boycott Medicare and Medicaid.[15] AAPS argues that individuals should purchase medical care directly from doctors, and that there is no right to medical care.[16] The organization requires its members to sign a "declaration of independence" pledging that they will not work with Medicare, Medicaid, or even private insurance companies.[10]"


And that's just for starters. Articles/commentaries in the AAPS journal have among other things claimed that HIV does not cause AIDS, denied human activity's role in global warming, claimed that abortion causes breast cancer, that ""humanists" have conspired to replace the "creation religion of Jehovah" with evolution" and that ""anchor babies" were launching a "stealthy assault on [American] medicine" (including the false claim that illegal aliens have sparked a recent leprosy epidemic in the U.S).

Bottom line - the AAPS is a bunch of raving libertarian loons. Ron Paul's association with them provides abundant fuel for his opponents.*

*the saner ones, anyway. Michele Bachmann is probably applying to AAPS as an auxiliary member as we speak.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 12-31-2011, 11:52 AM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Yes because Obama's ties to ACORN were meaningful factors for his losing the presidency.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 12-31-2011 at 11:53 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 12-31-2011, 12:29 PM
FinnAgain FinnAgain is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buchanan View Post
[...] ironic that a greater percentage of middle easterners work for the TSA than exist in American society overall, and these same folks are the ones searching the traditional American majority population while we refuse to racially profile
[...]
So clearly there is provocation; retaliation or a 'race war' has likely only not been a result due to white's incredible unwillingness to recognize group interests even when every possible faction around them does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buchanan View Post
[...] there is a huge problem, and that this order-of-magnitude-plus criminality, especially in violent crime, is unique to blacks and blacks alone.
[...] blacks are more likely to commit violent crimes than other races - and this is true across all countries and times, and whether blacks are a minority or a majority or relatively rich or poor
I'm shocked, shocked!
Well... not that shocked.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:04 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Will, if we're talking about gradations of crazy, ACORN barely gets the needle quivering. AAPS fries the meter.

Ron's got some more splainin' to do.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:14 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Will, if we're talking about gradations of crazy, ACORN barely gets the needle quivering. AAPS fries the meter.

Ron's got some more splainin' to do.
He hardly addressed the newsletter issue and he'll treat this with the same degree of attention.

He only feels compelled to explain claims he has made personally. The truth is that his own rhetoric as been fairly moderate compared to the craziness he gets saddled with by association.

The statements from his book aren't a big deal in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:16 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
C'mon, Lew Rockwell or someone probably wrote the book and Ron Paul never realized there were offending passages in it. Besides, that's ancient history and did you realize the Austrian economists have predicted all of our economic troubles and the government has too much power and Ron Paul is really really sincere.

He's gonna win, wait and see.
Yes, but win WHAT? Candidate with the most delusional fanbase? *throws confetti*
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 12-31-2011, 01:53 PM
FinnAgain FinnAgain is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
nvm

Last edited by FinnAgain; 12-31-2011 at 01:57 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 12-31-2011, 02:03 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
He hardly addressed the newsletter issue and he'll treat this with the same degree of attention.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 12-31-2011, 02:06 PM
Terraplane Terraplane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The statements from his book aren't a big deal in my opinion.
You don't see a problem with him blaming the victims of sexual harassment? The boss gropes somebody in the copy room and instead of him getting in trouble for what he did they should just quit their job? It's partially their fault?

Yeah, voters are going to love that.

edit: Wait, was your reply supposed to be sarcastic? I can't even tell anymore.

Last edited by Terraplane; 12-31-2011 at 02:08 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 12-31-2011, 05:23 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
[QUOTE=Terraplane;14619969]You don't see a problem with him blaming the victims of sexual harassment? The boss gropes somebody in the copy room and instead of him getting in trouble for what he did they should just quit their job? It's partially their fault?
QUOTE]

Where does he say the boss shouldn't get in trouble? He says civil rights laws are not needed to handle this, which is hardly a surprising position coming from him. This is just politically correct sensationalism.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 12-31-2011, 05:53 PM
Terraplane Terraplane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Where does he say the boss shouldn't get in trouble? He says civil rights laws are not needed to handle this, which is hardly a surprising position coming from him. This is just politically correct sensationalism.
I should have said 'instead of just him getting in trouble..." I didn't mean to imply that he meant the harasser shouldn't be punished. But he does blame the victim. If somebody is the victim of sexual harassment, it's not their fault. They shouldn't have to lose their job because they didn't do anything wrong. There is no shared blame. There's nothing sensational about that idea.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 12-31-2011, 06:01 PM
Fear Itself Fear Itself is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: 847 mi. from Cecil
Posts: 28,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Where does he say the boss shouldn't get in trouble? He says civil rights laws are not needed to handle this, which is hardly a surprising position coming from him. This is just politically correct sensationalism.
Then what laws should be used to administer justice to the employer, if not civil rights laws?

Last edited by Fear Itself; 12-31-2011 at 06:01 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 12-31-2011, 06:15 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
Then what laws should be used to administer justice to the employer, if not civil rights laws?
I assume every state has a law against sexual assault. I also believe its fairly simple to obtain a restraining order.
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 12-31-2011, 06:28 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraplane View Post
I should have said 'instead of just him getting in trouble..." I didn't mean to imply that he meant the harasser shouldn't be punished. But he does blame the victim. If somebody is the victim of sexual harassment, it's not their fault. They shouldn't have to lose their job because they didn't do anything wrong. There is no shared blame. There's nothing sensational about that idea.
Sexual assault is against the law.

If an employee does not like the conditions of his or her work environment, he or she should either express grievances with his or her superior(one not involved with the harassment) or find different employment. Just like any other problem with working conditions.

The quote is taken out of context but, being familiar with the philosophy of Dr Paul, I would guess he was making the case for the m****t ( i know its a dirty word around here) discouraging companies from condoning his type of behavior.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 12-31-2011, 06:30 PM
slowlearner slowlearner is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
republican times a changin?

current conservative republican economic beliefs are a lot closer to RP's austrian approach than to what everyone knows is the bus(h)iness as usual approach of mitt, ginger, and perry. and it sounds as if young republicans and independents are responding to his anti-militarism. also, he's a texan, and the texas born presidents since ike have all been wildly successful, so he's got a chance...
"fool me once...shame on...shame on you...if fooled, you can't get fooled again." W said exactly what i feel about obama and all the rest.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 12-31-2011, 07:11 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Fairly honest assessment of the candidacies of Paul and Obama.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 12-31-2011, 07:26 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Fairly honest assessment of the candidacies of Paul and Obama.
I didn't find much honest about claims that many people who are planning to vote for Obama won't acknowledge that Paul says some good things. He does. He also says incredibly bad things. The article claims to be nuanced and yet starts from a position of assuming everyone is too partisan... all except the author, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 01-01-2012, 10:54 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The (Ron Paul quote about sexual harassment on the job) is taken out of context
In what "context" is it acceptable to assume that the victim shares responsibility for being harassed on the job, and that the solution is to quit?
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 01-01-2012, 11:11 AM
Fear Itself Fear Itself is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: 847 mi. from Cecil
Posts: 28,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
I assume every state has a law against sexual assault. I also believe its fairly simple to obtain a restraining order.
So if the harassment doesn't rise to the level of assault, the victim's only recourse is to quit?
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 01-01-2012, 11:33 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
That "fairly honest" assessment of Ron Paul and Obama that Will posted has one revelatory piece of imagery, though it applies far more to Paul enthusiasts than to Obama supporters.

What the news media and opposition have been doing in recent days is holding up a mirror to Ron Paul - but both he and his devotees are busily ignoring the ugliness that they see.

Misogny, racism, willingness to torpedo decades of progress in environmental protection and public health - all that ugliness can be excused or denied because they find Ron Paul's isolationism and economic theories appealing.

It doesn't surprise me that some alleged progressives might be tempted by Ron's stance against any and all foreign involvements. But they're forgetting that with Ron, you get the whole package, and it's not a pretty one.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 01-01-2012, 11:45 AM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 30,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
..
Misogny, racism, willingness to torpedo decades of progress in environmental protection and public health - all that ugliness can be excused or denied because they find Ron Paul's isolationism and economic theories appealing....
This is true to the extent that libertarianism can be considered an economic theory. I think many of them really hate the idea of the government "intruding" into anything, and they comfort themselves with the crazy idea that a free market will solve all the problems. Maybe this is a kind of chicken and egg question.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 01-01-2012, 11:49 AM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
That "fairly honest" assessment of Ron Paul and Obama that Will posted has one revelatory piece of imagery, though it applies far more to Paul enthusiasts than to Obama supporters.

What the news media and opposition have been doing in recent days is holding up a mirror to Ron Paul - but both he and his devotees are busily ignoring the ugliness that they see.

Misogny, racism, willingness to torpedo decades of progress in environmental protection and public health - all that ugliness can be excused or denied because they find Ron Paul's isolationism and economic theories appealing.

It doesn't surprise me that some alleged progressives might be tempted by Ron's stance against any and all foreign involvements. But they're forgetting that with Ron, you get the whole package, and it's not a pretty one.
Same thing could be said about Obama. You're getting the whole package and it's not a pretty one.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 01-01-2012, 11:53 AM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 30,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Same thing could be said about Obama. You're getting the whole package and it's not a pretty one.
I will admit that I'm very disappointed in Obama, probably not for reasons you would agree with.

But a Paul presidency would be a nightmare -- that is assuming he could actually accomplish what he wants to. Which is doubtful, because even most Republican find him kinda scary.
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 01-01-2012, 12:12 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
I didn't find much honest about claims that many people who are planning to vote for Obama won't acknowledge that Paul says some good things.
Have you followed this thread at all? How about other Ron Paul threads on this forum?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
So if the harassment doesn't rise to the level of assault, the victim's only recourse is to quit?
Lets hear an example. If someone is offended by speech, I don't think a law should be passed limiting speech in the workplace.

The victim should bring it to the attention of the company. Its obviously not a good business practice. An effectively managed business would not stand for these kind of employee relations. If its not an effectively managed company, maybe high turnover would either drive it out of business, or force it to adopt a different sexual harassment policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
In what "context" is it acceptable to assume that the victim shares responsibility for being harassed on the job, and that the solution is to quit?
I believe I addressed the context in which I would find it acceptable. If you don't agree, you'll just have to find it "unacceptable" and keep it moving.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 01-01-2012, 12:24 PM
Fear Itself Fear Itself is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: 847 mi. from Cecil
Posts: 28,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Lets hear an example. If someone is offended by speech, I don't think a law should be passed limiting speech in the workplace.
"Hey Susan, I think you are a good candidate for that supervisor position. Why don't we go to Vegas for the weekend and talk about it?"
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 01-01-2012, 12:31 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Have you followed this thread at all? How about other Ron Paul threads on this forum?
Yeah, and I've been here a lot longer than you have.

Watch this!

I agree with Ron Paul about a few things. I think our foreign policy is way too militaristic and there is no way we should be deliberately targeting Americans without a trial. I also believe the War on Drugs is a dangerous and foolhardy thing that leads to incredibly perverse and racist outcomes, and that the number of Americans currently incarcerated is a complete disgrace.

I disagree with Ron Paul about a whole host of other things, from abortion rights to universal health care to taxes to civil rights to whether 95% of the black men in DC are criminals and incredibly fleet of foot. I don't think AIDS sufferers should get no help and I don't think the indigent should receive no medical care aside from charity. I don't think we all need gun to protect us from car jackers, nor do we need to make sure our guns were bought via the classifieds so that they can't be traced to us if we shoot "youths." I don't think GW Bush let 911 happen for his own ends, I believe in vaccination, I think a return to the gold standard is an absolutely idiotic thing to work toward, and I don't celebrate "Hate Whitey Day."

And, unlike Ron Paul, I don't think every candidate up on the stage during the last debate could beat Barack Obama. And he's one of the losers who can't.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 01-01-2012, 12:34 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post
"Hey Susan, I think you are a good candidate for that supervisor position. Why don't we go to Vegas for the weekend and talk about it?"
"No, thank you anyway Mr. Itself"

If Susan finds this invitation to be offensive, she is unhappy with her working conditions and should express her dissatisfaction with the proper people in her company. If the conditions do not improve, she can either find work in more hospitable conditions, or put up with these types of invitations.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 01-01-2012, 12:41 PM
Fear Itself Fear Itself is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: 847 mi. from Cecil
Posts: 28,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
"No, thank you anyway Mr. Itself"
"Too bad. Perhaps Mary would like that position..."

Do you not see how an employer's power is used to coerce sex?
Quote:
If Susan finds this invitation to be offensive, she is unhappy with her working conditions and should express her dissatisfaction with the proper people in her company.
And what "proper people" would you be talking about?
Quote:
If the conditions do not improve, she can either find work in more hospitable conditions, or put up with these types of invitations.
And that is why Ron Paul will lose.
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 01-01-2012, 12:46 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Yeah, and I've been here a lot longer than you have.

Watch this!

I agree with Ron Paul about a few things. I think our foreign policy is way too militaristic and there is no way we should be deliberately targeting Americans without a trial. I also believe the War on Drugs is a dangerous and foolhardy thing that leads to incredibly perverse and racist outcomes, and that the number of Americans currently incarcerated is a complete disgrace.

I disagree with Ron Paul about a whole host of other things, from abortion rights to universal health care to taxes to civil rights to whether 95% of the black men in DC are criminals and incredibly fleet of foot. I don't think AIDS sufferers should get no help and I don't think the indigent should receive no medical care aside from charity. I don't think we all need gun to protect us from car jackers, nor do we need to make sure our guns were bought via the classifieds so that they can't be traced to us if we shoot "youths." I don't think GW Bush let 911 happen for his own ends, I believe in vaccination, I think a return to the gold standard is an absolutely idiotic thing to work toward, and I don't celebrate "Hate Whitey Day."

And, unlike Ron Paul, I don't think every candidate up on the stage during the last debate could beat Barack Obama. And he's one of the losers who can't.
I don't think any of the candidates can beat Obama. He is going to have an opponent though. I, for one, would like that opponent to be able to challenge the president on the issues I find important.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 01-01-2012, 12:54 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
I don't think any of the candidates can beat Obama. He is going to have an opponent though. I, for one, would like that opponent to be able to challenge the president on the issues I find important.
And that's fine. Ideal even. But don't convince yourself that it means that people who are planning on voting for Obama are blind to hi flaws or to the good things that Ron Paul says just because they don't consider the good things Paul says as important as the bad things (or as important as you do). That's the mistake in the article you linked to.

I mean, I read a couple of days ago that David Duke is against the War on Drugs. David Duke agrees with me on something! I agree with David Duke on something! I can admit that we agree on something without having any desire whatsoever to vote for David Duke. (It does give me the desire to take a shower, though.)

Ron Paul isn't as loathsome as David Duke and I agree with him on more, but just agreeing on a handful of items doesn't make someone's ideology acceptable. Sure, Paul is better than Duke (and Bachmann and Perry and Santorum), but that doesn't mean he's someone I would ever vote for because I find the majority of his espoused ideas despicable.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 01-01-2012, 12:55 PM
Grumman Grumman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyo Jim View Post
But a Paul presidency would be a nightmare -- that is assuming he could actually accomplish what he wants to. Which is doubtful, because even most Republican find him kinda scary.
He's never going to accomplish what he wants to, that's why he'd make a good President. He is fighting specifically against what he considers the illegal seizure of powers by the federal government. This means that the politicians that want to retain those powers will fight against him, and it means that Ron Paul is not going to empower them by illegally seizing the power that would be necessary to force his worst ideas through.

It comes down to this: Ron Paul is the only running candidate I'm aware of who is against the US government kidnapping and murdering brown people without even bothering to justify the act with a trial, and he's got the balls to call them out on it. I'd love it if there was another candidate like that who didn't have Paul's baggage, but there isn't.
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 01-01-2012, 01:28 PM
newcomer newcomer is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
I disagree with Ron Paul about a whole host of other things, from abortion rights to universal health care to taxes to civil rights to whether 95% of the black men in DC are criminals and incredibly fleet of foot. I don't think AIDS sufferers should get no help and I don't think the indigent should receive no medical care aside from charity. I don't think we all need gun to protect us from car jackers, nor do we need to make sure our guns were bought via the classifieds so that they can't be traced to us if we shoot "youths." I don't think GW Bush let 911 happen for his own ends, I believe in vaccination, I think a return to the gold standard is an absolutely idiotic thing to work toward, and I don't celebrate "Hate Whitey Day."
Huh?!

But you took Ron Paul political positions from newsletters that were debunked already? And then pile on some more.

I guess then you ascribe Jeremiah Wright's sermons to Obama? Probably not, eh? You're probably a bit smarter than that.

This discussion has become pretty ridiculous.

I hope Obama loses ONLY because he is supported by people like this and that people like this will turn independents to approach elections as "vote Obama out".
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 01-01-2012, 01:39 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
Huh?!

But you took Ron Paul political positions from newsletters that were debunked already? And then pile on some more.
Debunked? No. He either wrote them or had them ghost-written and either way they are his.

And the majority of what I commented on wasn't from the newsletters in any case. Repeal of Roe v. Wade, return to gold standard, only charity for the indigent, no mandatory vaccination, 911 trutherism, etc. Couple that with his obvious and blatant lies about the newsletters and you've got a little twerp of a man who should be mocked and utterly rejected.

And he's STILL better than half of the Republican field.
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 01-01-2012, 01:40 PM
FinnAgain FinnAgain is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
But you took Ron Paul political positions from newsletters that were debunked already?
Are you making this up as you go along or something?
Not only were they not "debunked", but as you damn well know if you've read this thread (or pretty much any other on this subject) Ron Paul explicitly endorsed their contents, their contents were published under his aegis, name, and sponsorship, and he didn't use his newsletter to publish an apology or retraction to what it had published previously.

What purpose do you think your brand of bullshit serves? The more people dig into Paul, the more it's clear that he's a racist, conspiracy nut, anti-science, anti-environment, anti-civil rights, etc... lunatic. Compared to the actual record, some online babble about "guilt by association" will accomplish what, exactly? If he actually gets the nod the news media will go berserk reporting on Paul's own words and actions, and this will be the defense from the Paulian Faithful?

"Sure, you've got Paul's own words, actions and beliefs to critique... but aren't you ashamed of that guilt by association approach where you try to pin his own words, actions and beliefs on him? Well, aren't you???"
__________________
Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, you're vine! Sendday's eve and, ah you're vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister Funn, you're going to be fined again!
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 01-01-2012, 01:42 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinnAgain View Post
"Sure, you've got Paul's own words, actions and beliefs to critique... but aren't you ashamed of that guilt by association approach where you try to pin his own words, actions and beliefs on him? Well, aren't you???"
I actually cry myself to sleep each night in shame for believing the Ron Paul's association with Ron Paul somehow tarnishes him.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 01-01-2012, 02:09 PM
newcomer newcomer is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Debunked? No. He either wrote them or had them ghost-written and either way they are his.
Cite, please?
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 01-01-2012, 02:13 PM
FinnAgain FinnAgain is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Like the cite which was provided to you here, that you ignored? Or perhaps the cites in this thread which you've ignored?

Which cites, exactly, are you requesting?
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 01-01-2012, 02:40 PM
Terraplane Terraplane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
Huh?!

But you took Ron Paul political positions from newsletters that were debunked already? And then pile on some more.

I guess then you ascribe Jeremiah Wright's sermons to Obama? Probably not, eh? You're probably a bit smarter than that.
Well since we have video of Rev. Wright delivering his sermons himself, and since nobody's ever claimed that Obama wrote the sermons, no. And anyway I didn't have a huge problem with Wright's sermons, I think the guy had a point. But all we have 'debunking' Ron Paul's newsletter is that he says he didn't write it. That's it. We know it was published under his name. We know he made a lot of money off of it. But he says he didn't write it and so now it's debunked? Yeah, well, Larry Craig just has a wide stance in the bathroom. After all, he said so.

It doesn't even matter that much to me anyway, there are enough things that we can be sure Ron Paul has said that would keep me from ever voting for him. I do think Ron Paul has some really, really good points. He brings up issues and stands up for some very important things that nobody else, including Obama, is doing. He deserves credit for that, but that doesn't mean he's not accountable for his awful opinions as well. His supporters are excusing things that most of the country simply won't.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 01-01-2012, 03:27 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
Cite, please?
"I voted against this outrage time and time again as a Congressman. What an infamy that Ronald Reagan approved it! We can thank him for our annual Hate Whitey Day."

"... even in my little town of Lake Jackson, Texas, I've urged everyone in my family to know how to use a gun in self defense. For the animals are coming."

Either Ron Paul wrote that, or someone trying to look like Ron Paul who worked for the Ron Paul newsletters wrote that. I call that either Ron Paul or his ghost-writer.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 01-01-2012, 03:34 PM
newcomer newcomer is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terraplane View Post
It doesn't even matter that much to me anyway, there are enough things that we can be sure Ron Paul has said that would keep me from ever voting for him.
It does matter.

"Other things" are his political positions that you can choose to disagree with and that's fine. That you are not going to vote for him based on his political ideas is even better.

However, what we're talking about here is smears and lies that you - as, obviously, an aware voter - should reject as such.

For example, the article from reason that is being quoted comes with awfully selective set of quotes but there's one that closes whole question off:
Quote:
Originally Posted by reason
all named the same man as Paul's chief ghostwriter: Ludwig von Mises Institute founder Llewellyn Rockwell, Jr.
Even though I dislike use of "ghostwriter" which strongly suggests Ron Paul talked to Rockwell and then Rockwell only skill was writing it in proper sentences. It is very suggestive. So, for a person who has doubts and who would like separate proof of a systematic racist views I even posted a challenge in this post describing how would one go about proving that Ron if not original author at least harbors same racist opinions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
He claims he did not write it and I hope we'll all agree it is very difficulty to prove it one way or the other. Therefore, reasonable person would look into other ways of proving or disproving it. Or, at least, building a case for it. So, as much as I can see I simply cannot provide any other form of behaviour or tendencies that could be even remotely construed as racist. What I'm saying is that a person of that mindset would slip so to speak, at last once, somewhere to someone and that someone would come forward and speak of it with credibility. There's none.
Again, a person of such a inflamatory language would probably make a speech of similar nature or in his actions as medical doctor he would have a pattern of avoiding or rejecting minorities. But, there is no such cite. Of course, hear-say does not count, even if it appears in a magazine of such a pretentious name: reason. Going back to that reason article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by reason
Cato Institute President Ed Crane told reason he recalls a conversation from some time in the late 1980s in which Paul claimed that his best source of congressional campaign donations was the mailing list for The Spotlight, the conspiracy-mongering, anti-Semitic tabloid run by the Holocaust denier Willis Carto until it folded in 2001.
Can you follow this and not laugh He recalls a conversation from late 1980s...?!

You need to do better than this. Just sayin' ...

Last edited by newcomer; 01-01-2012 at 03:35 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 01-01-2012, 04:00 PM
FinnAgain FinnAgain is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
However, what we're talking about here is smears and lies
Indeed we are. But once we got done with the Paulian Defense League, we can discuss Paul's actual statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
how would one go about proving that Ron if not original author at least harbors same racist opinions
In that very article it points out that Paul, himself, said that he supported the racist stuff in his newsletter after he was challenged on it by a democrat he was running against. Funny how you missed that bit.
And all of this was explained to you, with a cite and a quote, in a post right after your nonsensical and fallacious "debunking". Funny how you missed that too.

Last edited by FinnAgain; 01-01-2012 at 04:03 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 01-01-2012, 11:38 PM
Voyager Voyager is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 33,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
Even though I dislike use of "ghostwriter" which strongly suggests Ron Paul talked to Rockwell and then Rockwell only skill was writing it in proper sentences. It is very suggestive. So, for a person who has doubts and who would like separate proof of a systematic racist views I even posted a challenge in this post describing how would one go about proving that Ron if not original author at least harbors same racist opinions:
I've actually had PR people write quotes for me to go into press releases. I've also written presentations for an exec two levels up. In both those cases the people whose name is on the quote read the damn quote. Now, in the Paul case, this was not a one-time thing. If it happened once perhaps I'd agree it is possible that he missed it. But if it was continuing, either no one on his staff ever read what went out under his name or none of them ever thought to say, "Ron, this is some racist crap here. Maybe we had better stop it." Perhaps it is not a good thing to support a candidate who surrounds himself with racists or people too dumb to recognize racism when it hits them over the head with a stick.
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 01-01-2012, 11:41 PM
Voyager Voyager is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 33,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowlearner View Post
also, he's a texan, and the texas born presidents since ike have all been wildly successful, so he's got a chance...
A useless war, a giant deficit, and nearly pushing the country into a depression is wildly successful on your planet?

Though I do consider the possibility this is a whoosh.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright 2013 Sun-Times Media, LLC.