The politics of Quran burning

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by BigT

It's one thing to print comics in Denmark, which was specifically designed to piss people off, making the creators trolls

I don't think they were specifically designed to piss people off, and I'm not sure it would matter even if they were.

[Sitnam]

Originally Posted by tullsterx

I don't support book burning, or Quran burning, or Bible burning. But, I find the images and descriptions of violent outrage shown by Muslim communities, in reaction to Quran burning, to be much more upsetting. There have been various groups of Muslims burning things that represent the US or Christianity or Judaism, for decades, and I've never seen a violent mob erupt due to those actions. I would readily give my life to defend free speech, even hate speech. And I worry that our president, in apologizing for said Quran burning, might appear to be sympathetic to the violence shown by offended Muslims, and might be giving short shrift to freedom-of-speech.

Is it only Americans that think the rights guaranteed by their government hold true for everyone in the rest of the world? These books were burned in the Bagram airbase, in Afghanistan, and it's undermining our political and diplomatic objectives.

The issue of Freedom of speech couldn't be more irrelevant.

[PhlyingRPh]

I just wanted to point out that it is perfectly acceptable in the Islamic religion to dispose of the Qur'an by burning. It is also acceptable to bury it or to dispose of it in running water. However, in my mind, burning it is the preferred method of disposal. I'd also like to point out that within the Qur'an and the Hadith (Traditions and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad) there are many references to manners around asking for forgiveness and accepting apologies. I think most muslims around the world who understand their religion and believe that the burning was an honest mistake rather than a devious/malicious act consider the matter closed. Others, obviously do not.

To understand those who consider the matter far from closed, it might be instructive to look at this episode within the context of yet another mistake in a 10+ year record of cock-ups (or, as the straw that broke the camels back) - dropping bombs on entire villages, rounding up men and imprisoning/torturing them, killing and alienating those who would otherwise have supported the US, driving convoys through and trampling through farmer's fields, the occasional rape of a young woman or child by an errant US soldier, stealing jewelry, confiscating cash, firing missiles on funerals, weddings, etc.

Frankly, my thought is I would much rather hear the US Govt apologize for the murder of over 200,000 Afghans, Pakistanis and Iraqis over the past 10 years than hear an apology for the accidental burning of a sacred text. Again - context!

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by PhlyingRPh

I just wanted to point out that it is perfectly acceptable in the Islamic religion to dispose of the Qur'an by burning. It is also acceptable to bury it or to dispose of it in running water. However, in my mind, burning it is the preferred method of disposal.

Do you have a source for that? According to the link I posted earlier, some Muslims think you can burn the book in some circumstances, but that doesn't mean just anybody can light a Quran bonfire and it's OK. It's the same situation with the American flag, I think.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

Is it only Americans that think the rights guaranteed by their government hold true for everyone in the rest of the world?

While it has been subverted in recent years by just this sort of bronze age bully, the existence of the UN Human Rights Council would suggest that this is not purely a US invention.

Originally Posted by shiftless

That's how I see it. Some malcontents with too much time on their hands find out that Qurans are being burned and get pissed, without a full understanding of the details. Some marching, a little rock throwing and a bored foreign correspondent all in the same place = "Afghans hate US for burning Qurans."

Bull. Fucking. Shit. They have been setting fire to cars and shops and twenty people have died. They are part of an international mob that hurts and kills innocent people to force others to treat their idols with reverence.

And how else would you describe the emotion behind shouting "Death to America!" than hate?

[PhlyingRPh]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Do you have a source for that? According to the link I posted earlier, some Muslims think you can burn the book in some circumstances, but that doesn't mean just anybody can light a Quran bonfire and it's OK. It's the same situation with the American flag, I think.

Sorry if I gave the impression that "just anybody can light a Qur'an bonfire and it's OK" - it isn't OK (in Islam) and it was not my intent to assert that it is. As with so many things in Islam, the act itself is less important than the intent behind it. What is one's intent in burning the book? Is it to dispose of it respectfully, to prevent it winding up on a trash heap and to return it to nature once it has served it's purpose? or, is it to demonstrate disapproval of the book/religion and possibly incite trouble?

I'm afraid I don't have a reputable online source for what I stated about burning the Qur'an. In fact, most of the sources that state it's OK appear to be anti-Muslim/racist/bigoted websites. I have seen my late mother dispose of a stack of Qur'an chapter books that had become old and were falling apart at the binding. I recall her initially burning 1/2 page at a time on the gas stove using a laboratory gauze placed over the burner, before deciding that was not going to work. A couple of days later, she started a fire in an old Wesson oil drum in the back garden with logs and a little fuel, then placed a few pages from each book respectfully onto the pyre every couple of minutes. I recall her trying very hard to ensure that no pages flew away in the wind, and when they did she would chase after them to try and catch them and put them back in the drum. It was a solemn affair, punctuated by her reciting a Qur'anic verse typically stated on hearing about one's death "All things belong to God, and to God they must return". It ended in the ashes being doused in water and buried at the end of our back garden, in a bed of blackberry bushes.

I suppose then, the source for this is me, so take it for what it's worth. Would I dispose of a Qu'ran by burning now? probably not, but only because of the charged atmosphere around the subject (the Terry Jones affair and now the current crisis, etc) puts a bad taste in my mouth.

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by Grumman

....And how else would you describe the emotion behind shouting "Death to America!" than hate?

Well, for one thing, we used to be a lot more ecumenical with our outreach programs. We killed a lot of Buddhists in Asia, some atheists in Asia, bunch of Catholics in Central America, but not all that many Muslims. Now, its pretty much all them.

How many innocent civilians died in George and Dicks Excellent Military Adventure. We don't know. They don't either, but in our case, its because we don't much care. They hate, and we are indifferent. Which is worse?

[Sitnam]

Originally Posted by Grumman

While it has been subverted in recent years by just this sort of bronze age bully, the existence of the UN Human Rights Council would suggest that this is not purely a US invention.

All the international councils and organizations on the planet won't change the minds of the people we are trying to win over, or change the laws they have enacted to govern themselves.

Bronze Age bully indeed, pretend Afghanis are stationed in an airbase in Texas and they mistakenly burn Bibles. You think FOX News is going to concede because of Freedom of Speech?

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

All the international councils and organizations on the planet won't change the minds of the people we are trying to win over, or change the laws they have enacted to govern themselves.

Read your own post that I was quoting. You did not ask "Would they be successful?", you asked "Do they think they should be?"

Bronze Age bully indeed, pretend Afghanis are stationed in an airbase in Texas and they mistakenly burn Bibles. You think FOX News is going to concede because of Freedom of Speech?

I think FOX News isn't going to start setting fire to cars and storefronts.

[elucidator]

No, they corrupt minds. Or have you forgotten?

[Zebra]

If those books contained messages from prisoners to people on the outside and the messages were "bad", why would you burn the evidence?

Why did you burn those books?
There was something bad in them.
What?
I'd show you but I burned them up.

Doesn't really make sense to me. Neither does rioting over it but why not show how the 'terrorist' is disrespecting the Koran and let them see who respects their religion and who doesn't.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Zebra

If those books contained messages from prisoners to people on the outside and the messages were "bad", why would you burn the evidence?

Because they're not going to be prosecuting these people for anything. I agree the lack of evidence makes it more difficult to accept their statements, but they don't particularly need the evidence.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

All the international councils and organizations on the planet won't change the minds of the people we are trying to win over, or change the laws they have enacted to govern themselves.

Bronze Age bully indeed, pretend Afghanis are stationed in an airbase in Texas and they mistakenly burn Bibles. You think FOX News is going to concede because of Freedom of Speech?

We crap on Christianity in this country like it was a required body function. WTH are you talking about?

[elucidator]

That would explain why Christians are a despised and powerless minority, such that major political candidates feel free to ignore them.

[Sitnam]

Originally Posted by Magiver

We crap on Christianity in this country like it was a required body function. WTH are you talking about?

Yeah, the persecution just never ends what with your god on our money, in our pledge, in our court oaths, state sanctioned holy days. Why just the other day I heard businesses owned by Christian churches have to abide by federal laws protecting the rights of employees that don't share their faith.

You guys got it bad.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Magiver

We crap on Christianity in this country like it was a required body function. WTH are you talking about?

That's an extremely stupid comment.

Please give me some examples of prominent political figures "taking a crap on Christianity".

[magellan01]

I just posted this in another GD thread concerning Islam, and it seems that this thread would benefit from it, as well:

Yet another incident that points to the ill fit between Islam and the civilized world. We need to let adherents of that religion know that the "justification" that someone made fun of Muhammad, or drew a cartoon of him or burned a Koran is actually ZERO justification. The more we tip-toe around this we imply that that actually do have some justification to commit violence because their widdle feewlings were hurt. Fuck that. Note to Muslims: Welcome to the 21 century. Enjoy yourselves. If you insist on acting like ignorant, atavistic troglodytes, go fuck yourselves.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

That's an extremely stupid comment.

Please give me some examples of prominent political figures "taking a crap on Christianity".

nice attempt at a straw man to alter an argument. We as a nation routinely make light of Jesus in the media. His image is peed on, made into chocolate, dipped in urine, and derided in cartoons. Someone could write a book just on the fun we've had with Tebow.

I could literally post indefinitely on what would be considered blasphemy related to Jesus. It's because of the First Amendment, which was written by Christians to defend against government intrusion into religion and the freedom to speak out on any subject without persecution.

[elucidator]

Jesus can handle it. You're the one who can't.

Did you know, by any chance, that reverence for Jesus as a Messenger of God is central to Muhammad's teachings? That devout Muslims refuse to accept the Crucifixion, on the grounds that God would never allow such a thing to happen to his Beloved Prophet? And that the Koran describes Jesus has having freckles? Rather apt, in my estimation, but YMMV.

[PrettyVacant]

Originally Posted by magellan01

Yet another incident that points to the ill fit between Islam and the civilized world. We need to let adherents of that religion know that the "justification" that someone made fun of Muhammad, or drew a cartoon of him or burned a Koran is actually ZERO justification. The more we tip-toe around this we imply that that actually do have some justification to commit violence because their widdle feewlings were hurt. Fuck that. Note to Muslims: Welcome to the 21 century. Enjoy yourselves. If you insist on acting like ignorant, atavistic troglodytes, go fuck yourselves.

We thank the US military for that message.

Time and time and time again; when the fuck is the US military going to learn how not to lose an occupation?

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Jesus can handle it. You're the one who can't.

Not sure who you're talking to but it's not me. I'm not shilling Christianity. But if you're referring to Christians who can handle it, that would be all of Western civilization because Christian Blasphemy is a routine part of life.

Originally Posted by elucidator

Did you know, by any chance, that reverence for Jesus as a Messenger of God is central to Muhammad's teachings? That devout Muslims refuse to accept the Crucifixion, on the grounds that God would never allow such a thing to happen to his Beloved Prophet? And that the Koran describes Jesus has having freckles? Rather apt, in my estimation, but YMMV.

Thanks for the info professor Politically Correct. Now tell me how Muhammad and his followers would handle blasphemy.

[magellan01]

Originally Posted by PrettyVacant

We thank the US military for that message.

Time and time and time again; when the fuck is the US military going to learn how not to lose an occupation?

That's a different issue. Mistake were made. Mistakes will be made. Burning a book is simply never a justification for killing. Sorry you, and others, can't seem to grasp that simple fact.

[florez]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Did you know, by any chance, that reverence for Jesus as a Messenger of God is central to Muhammad's teachings?

The Koran also shows much reverence to Mary, his mother.

[PrettyVacant]

Originally Posted by magellan01

That's a different issue. Mistake were made. Mistakes will be made. Burning a book is simply never a justification for killing. Sorry you, and others, can't seem to grasp that simple fact.

If you think it's a book, you are also eligible for the knucklehead US military.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by magellan01

Mistake were made.

I don't think a Nixon reference is the right play here.

Originally Posted by PrettyVacant

If you think it's a book, you are also eligible for the knucklehead US military.

Much as I like "elibible," it is indeed a book. Some people like some books more than others, but they're still books.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Magiver

nice attempt at a straw man to alter an argument. We as a nation routinely make light of Jesus in the media. His image is peed on, made into chocolate, dipped in urine, and derided in cartoons. Someone could write a book just on the fun we've had with Tebow.

One of those is a ridiculing of Tim Tebow not Jesus. None of the rest are remotely mainstream except maybe, maybe the episode of South Park and all of those inspired protests and condemnations.

By the standards you're setting then Muslims are tolerant of blasphemy because Muhammad jokes and jokes about God are quite common in much of the Islamic world.

Most of us recognize the difference between jokes by the ingroup and insults directed by someone who is in the midst of conquering and exploiting you.

What do you think would have happened during the 60s to someone who wandered into West Belfast wearing a Union Jack and shouting "The Pope's a Queer"!

[PrettyVacant]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Some people like some books more than others, but they're still books.

Goodness me, you sound parochial.

[ralph124c]

Originally Posted by magellan01

That's a different issue. Mistake were made. Mistakes will be made. Burning a book is simply never a justification for killing. Sorry you, and others, can't seem to grasp that simple fact.

This would have happened, sooner or later. Suppose it got out that NATO troops were eating bacon? That would have set the local mullahs off. But, a question: these texts (that were burned) had been desecrated by Muslims (they had written messages in the pages). Since they had been desecrated, they were no longer sacred-therefore, they could be (lawfully) destroyed.
Why didn't the US commander think of that?

[florez]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Most of us recognize the difference between jokes by the ingroup and insults directed by someone who is in the midst of conquering and exploiting you.
r"!

I hope so, but sometimes I am not so sure the conquering and exploiting aspect is recognized by most.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

One of those is a ridiculing of Tim Tebow not Jesus. None of the rest are remotely mainstream except maybe, maybe the episode of South Park and all of those inspired protests and condemnations.

I honestly don't get your point. Everything I cited made the news. I pulled them from memory and a quick internet search. The SNL skit made fun of Jesus as a god/prophet as well as Tebow even though Tebow was the main focus. If you substituted Mohammad it would not have gone over well.

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

By the standards you're setting then Muslims are tolerant of blasphemy because Muhammad jokes and jokes about God are quite common in much of the Islamic world.

Most of us recognize the difference between jokes by the ingroup and insults directed by someone who is in the midst of conquering and exploiting you.

What do you think would have happened during the 60s to someone who wandered into West Belfast wearing a Union Jack and shouting "The Pope's a Queer"!

I think he would have gotten his ass kicked for either wearing the Union Jack or the "Pope is Queer". Both would have been an insult directed specifically at Irish Catholics akin to Zombie Muhammad walking around a mosque parking lot during prayers.

Here is where your example is worth examining closer. There was a Zombie Pope in the same parade and statistically there would have been exponentially more Catholics at the event. The odds of someone going after Zombie Pope should be higher. Putting that aside as a random act, if this goes viral, the insult might get a condemnation from a Catholic Bishop. That, plus $1 won't buy you a cup of coffee but if an Imam focuses on it the condemnation of blasphemy is going to be many magnitudes more dangerous. Look at the riots that resulted from the mere suggestion of burning a koran. You can burn Bibles all day long and it's not going to stir up the same level of emotion.

While religions can and have been used in power struggles throughout the centuries it is their core structures that drive them over time. Christianity and Islamic wars were notoriously brutal in the back-and-forth power struggles for land. You still see this in Africa as cultures clash across the continent. But take away the political power struggle and you're still left with a core structure of brutal retribution against those who break Islamic law. This goes beyond the books of the 2 religions. It is the actions of the respective prophets that, IMO, drives the punishment against those who challenge it (blasphemy).

With that said we have to look at why people involve themselves with religion. Clearly the fear of death generates the desire to believe in something to alleviate this fear. That "something" is an extension of life through a mystic journey to hopefully a better place. The natural progression from this is to create some kind of reward/punishment system to qualify for the "next life". This system naturally lends itself to a codification of rules. There is theme of good-versus-evil along with a list of do's and don'ts. That is religion in a nutshell.

With that said, people generally look to religion for some kind of guidance in their daily lives to both qualify for the next life and to generally be better people. IMO the majority of people in any religion will grasp the concept of being a better person and individual salvation. The fringe in any religion will fall back on the core behavior of the progenitor of their religion. This is where we have more problems with some religions than others in modern day life. It's to be expected that in some backwater corner of the world people will essentially still be living as if they are in an earlier century. Time has not caught up with them and there is conflict when confronted with 21st century societies. But putting that aside, we still see Islam preached around the world as if it was still in it's early stages. This is the conflict we see today complete with Imams who actively maintain private armies and train their flock as warriors against evil.

So in summary I see Islam as any other religion consisting of a majority of people who are in it to better themselves and qualify for the next life. The difference is in the fringe element which IMO lends itself more toward violence then a religion such as Buddhism. That tendency is a direct result of Imam's and followers who look to Muhammad's actions toward blasphemy to guide their actions.

[magellan01]

Originally Posted by PrettyVacant

If you think it's a book, you are also eligible for the knucklehead US military.

Oh, it was on CD ROM?

[magellan01]

Originally Posted by ralph124c

This would have happened, sooner or later. Suppose it got out that NATO troops were eating bacon? That would have set the local mullahs off. But, a question: these texts (that were burned) had been desecrated by Muslims (they had written messages in the pages). Since they had been desecrated, they were no longer sacred-therefore, they could be (lawfully) destroyed.
Why didn't the US commander think of that?

Great point, which I missed. I think because he was on his heels. Once the allegation is leveled by the hypersensitive, rational thought goes out the door.

But this gives me an idea: instead of bombs, let's drop bags of pork rinds. Ot get Slim Jim to include a little pork in their sticks and drop them over the whole coppery. I defy more than half the population to not start chomping them...then we have a deep internal rift.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by ralph124c

But, a question: these texts (that were burned) had been desecrated by Muslims (they had written messages in the pages). Since they had been desecrated, they were no longer sacred-therefore, they could be (lawfully) destroyed.
Why didn't the US commander think of that?

Had I known you were such an august authority on Islamic law, I would have deferred to your knowledge of all things Mohammedan. But, just for the record, what is your source for the claim that 1) writing on Koran pages renders them "desecrated", and 2) desecrated Korans can be destroyed by American soldiers without offending Muslims? Something in the Hadiths perhaps? Or is this just common knowledge I am not privy to?

[elucidator]

As Magellan offers us wisdom from the John Bolton school of diplomacy.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by jjimm

you'd think that the US military, after nearly ten whole years of occupation of two Muslim countries, would by now have consolidated enough cultural knowledge not to exacerbate by cultural insensitivity an already problematic situation, no matter how assinine the reasons for outrage appears to us westerners.

Or, you know, not let it be known we were doing it. How did anyone find out about it? If we confiscated some Korans for security purposes and decided that we were going to burn them, why couldn't we have done so in secret? Why couldn't Monica Lewinksy have been brought in to fuck Slick Willie by the Secret Service through the back door of the White House so nobody was the wiser?

It boggles my mind that we have these gaps in information security. What people don't know doesn't hurt them.

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

...Why couldn't Monica Lewinksy have been brought in to fuck Slick Willie by the Secret Service through the back door of the White House so nobody was the wiser?...

You mean, besides the fact that one of them would have ratted him out toot sweet?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by elucidator

You mean, besides the fact that one of them would have ratted him out toot sweet?

Well, as Robin Williams once so eloquently put it, Bill had the misfortune of hooking up with the only Jewish woman that didn't know how to get a stain out...

Ah here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psh2a72_JfY



But seriously...The military burns all kinds of shit all the damn time. How was this allowed to get out knowing the sensitivity of the Muslim religious climate we are/were operating in? It should have been earmarked as just trash...I still don't get why this was allowed to become a story.

[elucidator]

Of course she knew how, she didn't want to. Like a momento, or a keepsuck.

Sake. Keepsake.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Of course she knew how, she didn't want to. Like a momento, or a keepsuck.

Sake. Keepsake.

I love Bill Maher's take on Bill's self control..."the one time he DOES come in all these episodes of prison sex she saves it, and hangs him with it!"

I fear I've derailed the thread.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

But seriously...The military burns all kinds of shit all the damn time. How was this allowed to get out knowing the sensitivity of the Muslim religious climate we are/were operating in? It should have been earmarked as just trash...I still don't get why this was allowed to become a story.

This. I've been wondering this the whole time. Who the fuck let this info out? They should have invited a local muckity muck in for advice on how to dispose of them and videotaped everything from conversation to ceremony.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Had I known you were such an august authority on Islamic law, I would have deferred to your knowledge of all things Mohammedan. But, just for the record, what is your source for the claim that 1) writing on Koran pages renders them "desecrated",

Verb: descrate 'desu'kreyt
Violate the sacred character of a place or language

Misusing their holy book for something as mundane as passing messages would qualify, surely?

and 2) desecrated Korans can be destroyed by American soldiers without offending Muslims? Something in the Hadiths perhaps? Or is this just common knowledge I am not privy to?

Having one of the Muslim chaplains destroy the books in accordance with the rules of Islam would theoretically do it. Just destroying the books in an incinerator designed for secure documents (i.e. one that renders them completely illegible) would also probably suffice.

Of course, even if they did it right, that doesn't mean they wouldn't chuck a tantrum anyway.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Grumman

Misusing their holy book for something as mundane as passing messages would qualify, surely?

Oh surely; Afghani Muslims could hardly argue with an English dictianary now, could they?

[elucidator]

Yeah, who in the civilized West ever promised people that they were fighting on God's side, and God would be pleased to see the infidels chopped up? I mean, lately.

What was that, a while back, how a US intelligence officer, big 'un, appearing if full uniform in front of evangelicals talking about how his God had bigger balls than Allah, and his religion was stronger? Great stuff, the propaganda guys at AlQ took the day off. "Useful idiot", that was Lenin's term, yes?

Our enemies get a heck of an advantage, they don't have to lie about us. They only need to focus attention on the unsavory stuff, which we supply in abundance. Add to that the fact that we recently wiped out upwards of a hundred thousand of them for no good reason whatsoever, one can understand how they might leap to conclusions.

Anyway, you wi-fi warmongers, keep up the good work. Thanks of a grateful nation, and all that good stuff.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Oh surely; Afghani Muslims could hardly argue with an English dictianary now, could they?

Okay, how about this? A Muslim blogger stating that writing in the Koran even for good reasons is generally considered defilement. Does that satisfy you?

Writing in it, even in the context of literary engagement, is without question seen as defilement.

[magellan01]

Oh, it gets better:

Responding to Obama's apology on Saturday, the commander of Iran's Basij force Brigadier General Mohammad Reza Naqd claimed that the holy book was burned by U.S. forces over the heavy slap it has been given by Islam," urging Muslims worldwide to reject the American apology.

"Nothing but burning the White House can relieve the wound of us, the Muslims, caused by the Burning of Quran in the US," he said adding: "Their apology can be accepted only by hanging their commanders; hanging their commanders means an apology," he was quoted by the semi-official Fars news agency as saying.

[PrettyVacant]

A Taliban suicide car bomber has killed at least nine people and wounded 10 others in an attack at Jalalabad airport in eastern Afghanistan.

The insurgents said the bombing was in revenge for a Koran-burning incident at a US air base a week ago.

Wasamatter with these people; why don't they understand it's just a book, already?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17175568

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by PrettyVacant

Wasamatter with these people; why don't they understand it's just a book, already?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17175568

Huh?

Because to Muslims it's not just a book anymore than urinating on the ground near a grave is just pouring fluid on the ground that will disappear even quicker than rainwater and doesn't disturb the body underneath any differently than rainwater.

Nevertheless, most people reading this would react quite differently if they saw me pissing on the grave of their grandfather who'd died twenty years ago and who's body had returned to the earth long ago than if they saw me pissing on a rock in the woods.

Furthermore, a common misconception is that the Quran is to Muslims, and South Asian Muslim in particular, what the Bible is to Christians. It's not. Christians think nothing of carrying around dog-eared, copies of the Bible in multiple different languages all the time and generally when carrying them or putting them down treat them no differently than other books.

That's not the case with Muslims. According to tradition, they are not to be printed in any language except Quranic Arabic. My father in all his years living in Iran never saw a Farsi translation of the Quran and it's vastly easier in Pakistan to get a hold of a King James Version of the Bible than an Urdu translation of the Quran. Even translations you'll see in the West, will have one page in Quranic Arabic and then the next page in English, French or whatever European language it's in.

As a result, the overwhelming majority of Muslims not only have never actually read the Quran, but for all intents and purposes can't read it.

You're also never supposed to touch the Quran without first washing your hands, you're never supposed to put it on the ground, you're never supposed to put another book on it, and there are probably a bunch of other restrictions that I don't know because my own upbringing was fairly non-traditional to say the least.

Also, the Qurans in South Asia are often hand-written in beautiful caligraphy and bound far nicer than most Bibles you're ever likely to see. For families that are lucky enough to own one(even though they can't read it though they can usually recite it) its usually the most expensive thing they own.

All of this combines to add to the mystique of the Quran.

A much, much better comparison to the Quran would be Torah scrolls which Jews treat, for the same reasons as Muslims, with vastly more respect than Christians treat the Bible.

Imagine how some of the religious Jews in one of the settlements on the West Bank would react if they heard that some Palestinians had gotten ahold of copies of the Torah Scrolls and destroyed them.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Imagine how some of the religious Jews in one of the settlements on the West Bank would react if they heard that some Palestinians had gotten ahold of copies of the Torah Scrolls and destroyed them.

Do you believe they would start murdering innocent bystanders and setting fire to shops?

[tagos]

Originally Posted by Grumman

Do you believe they would start murdering innocent bystanders and setting fire to shops?

It doesn't matter. The fact is we KNOW these sorts of actions will make Afghans go ape-shit and provide propaganda gold to our enemies.

It should not happen, ever, no matter what the circumstances or excuses. And if it does you do it far, far away from the Afghan workers on the base, not leave the smouldering evidence lying about for them to find.

There should be well-established standing orders to all in-country. 'DO NOT fuck with the Koran. This General Order supercedes all other orders and cannot be countermanded.'

Whoever the dipshits who ordered this and the dipshits who only followed orders are - they've done more damage than a thousand bloody Taliban could dream of doing.

They should be court-martialed and dishonourably discharged.

[PrettyVacant]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Huh?

I was being ironic or sarcastic or, like, whatever, man.

There are those in this thread who are parocial and/or provincial enough to seemingly believe it's 'just a book'.