2012 NCAA March Madness (Men's) thread

[diku]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

That wasn't a college basketball game. That was some mix of the Globetrotters (including the sometimes blind referees) and the NBA All-Star game. I'm not saying that as a put down, I'm complimenting the level of raw talent on the floor.

How did UK lose a game this year with that juggernaut?

Indiana was the first real road game they'd ever played. IU had older players who'd been beat the last two years by Kentucky, they were a talented team that some project will be no 1 in the preseason next year. Assembly Hall is one hell of place to have to play, the atmosphere there is smothering to say the least. We were down 12 and still managed to lead by two, and gave up a miracle shot after trying to foul (we had one to give with less that 2 seconds).

I still say that Coach didn't do everything he could to win the Vandy game in the tournament. He hates playing in the tournament, and said that he would have rather lost the day before for more rest. He didn't call any time outs down the stretch, and Vandy again was a talented team that was in the Top 5 in the preseason, we'd beaten them twice already. Hard to beat the same team three times. They shot the lights out and beat us.

A lot of that is probably rationalizing from a Kentucky fan, but there wasn't a game this season where they had less talent at any position than the other team, except possibly Iowa St. Royce White is a monster talent and will be a multi time all star when he goes pro. He gave the whole team trouble, but being 6'8 and 270 can do that.

[Snooooopy]

I sure got a big charge when I read about how Kentucky's title win gave the 'Cats a little boost in the eyes of big-time high school player Shabazz Muhammad. I mean, we already have a pretty good recruiting class coming in, but I'm greedy! I want more, more, more!

[R. P. McMurphy]

Surprise, surprise, surprise!

The entire starting lineup of the Kentucky Wildcats NCAA championship team (3 freshmen and 2 sophomores) declare for the NBA draft.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaab--...7k95X01IXevbYF

A new crop is ready to take their place. I guess that's what college basketball has come down to. Calipari has set the model.

[JohnT]

It's not Calipari's fault that the NBA accidentally set up the "one-and-done" player by putting it in their bylaws that they won't draft kids straight out of high school.

[R. P. McMurphy]

Originally Posted by JohnT

It's not Calipari's fault that the NBA accidentally set up the "one-and-done" player by putting it in their bylaws that they won't draft kids straight out of high school.

It's not in their bylaws. It's part of the collective bargaining agreement with the player's union.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

The story I heard about Wisconsin's coach preventing a player from transferring to a list of schools he created is more maddening to me. Is that real? Can a coach do that? Shit, the kid already has to sit out a year if he transfers....a coach can arbitrarily deny him transferring to a specific school?



Seems like bullshit to me.

[Snooooopy]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

The story I heard about Wisconsin's coach preventing a player from transferring to a list of schools he created is more maddening to me. Is that real? Can a coach do that? Shit, the kid already has to sit out a year if he transfers....a coach can arbitrarily deny him transferring to a specific school?

If that story irritates you, what happened to former St. Joseph's player Todd O'Brien will drive you up a wall. The school blocked him from being able to play basketball at the school he transferred to, UAB. Now, O'Brien was pretty much a scrub, averaging all of one point per game. The schools weren't scheduled to face each other in the one year of eligibility O'Brien had left. Still, St. Joseph's scotched the deal. Now, if it had been a star player who was trying to defect to a rival school, well, I'm not saying that's all that great, either, but at least one could chalk it up to competitiveness instead of petty meanness.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

So do coaches/universities really wield some type of legal power over where athletes that wish to transfer schools for whatever reason can go? Is this codified in some legalese within their scholarship paperwork or something? How is that even legal?

[mkecane]

Forget it, it's the NCAA.

[diku]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

So do coaches/universities really wield some type of legal power over where athletes that wish to transfer schools for whatever reason can go? Is this codified in some legalese within their scholarship paperwork or something? How is that even legal?

Yep. There's been some high profile stuff around the transfers from Maryland in football. Danny O'Brien wanted to transfer from Maryland because of a new coach. Rumor had it that he wanted to transfer to Vandy, since James Franklin is the head coach and he had been an assistant at Maryland previously. Maryland's coach Randy Edsell told him he couldn't transfer to any team in the ACC or Vandy specifically.

It's actually pretty routine for a coach to block a kid from transferring within the same conference or to any team they play within the next few years. I'm not saying it's right, but it happens.

And then people wonder why these guys want to go pro. Let's see, the coach can: get a shoe contract, make money off endorsements for being the coach, leave for any job they want at any time. Yes, the kids get a college education if they choose to take it, and that's worth something. But the coach and university wouldn't make millions off selling jerseys and such without the players. The coach wouldn't have that shoe contract without the players. And if the player so much as takes five bucks for a meal somewhere, he's ineligible right away. So yeah, I don't blame the kids a bit.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by diku

Yep. There's been some high profile stuff around the transfers from Maryland in football. Danny O'Brien wanted to transfer from Maryland because of a new coach. Rumor had it that he wanted to transfer to Vandy, since James Franklin is the head coach and he had been an assistant at Maryland previously. Maryland's coach Randy Edsell told him he couldn't transfer to any team in the ACC or Vandy specifically.

It's actually pretty routine for a coach to block a kid from transferring within the same conference or to any team they play within the next few years. I'm not saying it's right, but it happens.

And then people wonder why these guys want to go pro. Let's see, the coach can: get a shoe contract, make money off endorsements for being the coach, leave for any job they want at any time. Yes, the kids get a college education if they choose to take it, and that's worth something. But the coach and university wouldn't make millions off selling jerseys and such without the players. The coach wouldn't have that shoe contract without the players. And if the player so much as takes five bucks for a meal somewhere, he's ineligible right away. So yeah, I don't blame the kids a bit.

I guess what I am wondering is if its legally enforceable to block a student athlete from transferring to certain schools or whether it could be challenged in court. And if it is completely legal for the coach/school to do this, where is the "law" written down? NCAA bylaws?

[fiddlesticks]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

I guess what I am wondering is if its legally enforceable to block a student athlete from transferring to certain schools or whether it could be challenged in court. And if it is completely legal for the coach/school to do this, where is the "law" written down? NCAA bylaws?

Not sure if Uthoff couldn't win a Curt Flood-like legal case in five years by making a federal case over this, but yes, it is written into NCAA's bylaws, and by accepting a D-1 scholie, you "agree" to the rules. And apparently it only applies to revenue sports, so a lacrosse player at John Hopkins can transfer without any limitations to Duke.

Tubby Smith at Minnesota blocked Colton Iverson from transfering within the B1G with nary a peep of outrage. Obviously Ryan's blocking Uthoff from the entire ACC (presumably because future ACC/B1G Challenge opponents aren't decided yet) and Iowa State (for reasons unknown) is what bubbled this story into the Trending Topics level. Blocking Marquette is completely understandable. UW and MU engage in a recruiting deathmatch on a year in year out basis.

As a Wisconsin alum this is embarrassing. I think Bo Ryan's pissed at the kid and let his emotions get the better of him. And apparently Bo did himself no favors on the radio talk show of record, Mike and Mike, this morning. Sigh.

[R. P. McMurphy]

Originally Posted by diku

And then people wonder why these guys want to go pro. Let's see, the coach can: get a shoe contract, make money off endorsements for being the coach, leave for any job they want at any time. Yes, the kids get a college education if they choose to take it, and that's worth something. But the coach and university wouldn't make millions off selling jerseys and such without the players. The coach wouldn't have that shoe contract without the players. And if the player so much as takes five bucks for a meal somewhere, he's ineligible right away. So yeah, I don't blame the kids a bit.

To your point, a grad student in the hard sciences can get free tuition and books, free medical insurance and get a stipend of nearly $30k a year. That's all legal and above board. Why can't an athlete that is bringing in a lot of revenue to the school get a similar stipend? I know that is not pro type money but it would make things better for a lot of players that are busting their ass and aren't going to go pro.

[Gangster Octopus]

Originally Posted by fiddlesticks

As a Wisconsin alum this is embarrassing. I think Bo Ryan's pissed at the kid and let his emotions get the better of him. And apparently Bo did himself no favors on the radio talk show of record, Mike and Mike, this morning. Sigh.

I agree, as a fellow alum it is embarrassing. I understand the rule in the sense that you don't want teams to keep recruiting players even after they are at a school (which could hypothetically happen), but I think this is abusing the privilege. And yes he came off very poorly on Mike & Mike. He was going on about loyalty and signing a contract, etc. but it is just dumb, it is just a young kid who found out that he doesn't like the situation at Wisconsin. That's fair, it happens to all of us. Let him go outside the Big 10 (and not Marquette) and move on. Lord knows Bo has left a couple of programs even though he had a contract. I think this could also hurt his future recruiting.

[diku]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

To your point, a grad student in the hard sciences can get free tuition and books, free medical insurance and get a stipend of nearly $30k a year. That's all legal and above board. Why can't an athlete that is bringing in a lot of revenue to the school get a similar stipend? I know that is not pro type money but it would make things better for a lot of players that are busting their ass and aren't going to go pro.

The primary reason these guys are jumping is not the one and done rule, it's the slotted rookie contract schedule in the NBA. Gone are the days of Glen Robinson getting 7 years/70 million. Now you have two years with a team option of a third and fourth year. So they want to get out there and get that contract started quickly so they can hit the big free agent contract come that fifth year. Look at Derrick Rose with the Bulls. Rookie contract the first four years, and yes, it was a ton of money ($22 million over four years) since he was the first round pick, but then signed a 5 year $95 million dollar extension. Further down the draft if you get less, but if you perform, you can cash in.

Calipari has proposed allowing time in college to credit towards that time frame, so they can hit that free agent year faster. No way the NBA does that, the owners can't control themselves, which is why we have the rookie scale and had the lockout.

[R. P. McMurphy]

Originally Posted by diku

The primary reason these guys are jumping is not the one and done rule, it's the slotted rookie contract schedule in the NBA. Gone are the days of Glen Robinson getting 7 years/70 million. Now you have two years with a team option of a third and fourth year. So they want to get out there and get that contract started quickly so they can hit the big free agent contract come that fifth year. Look at Derrick Rose with the Bulls. Rookie contract the first four years, and yes, it was a ton of money ($22 million over four years) since he was the first round pick, but then signed a 5 year $95 million dollar extension. Further down the draft if you get less, but if you perform, you can cash in.

Calipari has proposed allowing time in college to credit towards that time frame, so they can hit that free agent year faster. No way the NBA does that, the owners can't control themselves, which is why we have the rookie scale and had the lockout.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I don't know what that has to do with giving a stipend to athletes that generate revenue for the Athletic Dept. I'm just saying, it's not as if it doesn't happen on the academic side.

[markdash]

I heard the suggestion, and I think it's a decent one, that the NBA should adopt the MLB system of eligibility, which is that you can come out after high school, but if you decide to go to college you have to stay there for a set number of years before you can come out (in baseball, it's 3, but I could see 2 working better for basketball).

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by markdash

I heard the suggestion, and I think it's a decent one, that the NBA should adopt the MLB system of eligibility, which is that you can come out after high school, but if you decide to go to college you have to stay there for a set number of years before you can come out (in baseball, it's 3, but I could see 2 working better for basketball).

I so desperately want this to happen. I'm a Kentucky fan and I cannot keep track of the players anymore. That, and with the level of recruitment talent Calipari brings in, I can't imagine how many championships UK could feasibly win if they could retain the John Walls, Anthony Davis' and Brandon Knights for even one more year.

[diku]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

I'm not disagreeing with you but I don't know what that has to do with giving a stipend to athletes that generate revenue for the Athletic Dept. I'm just saying, it's not as if it doesn't happen on the academic side.

Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you either. I think that would be a great idea. Something that's there so they can go out if they want to and not worry about the NCAA.

For anyone that says these guys made the wrong decision, when they asked Michael Kidd-Gilchrist what he was going to do with the money, he said "I'm going to spoil my mom." I can't give a kid grief for that.

[R. P. McMurphy]

Originally Posted by markdash

I heard the suggestion, and I think it's a decent one, that the NBA should adopt the MLB system of eligibility, which is that you can come out after high school, but if you decide to go to college you have to stay there for a set number of years before you can come out (in baseball, it's 3, but I could see 2 working better for basketball).

It's not just baseball, it's hockey also. Guys get drafted when they are in college, stay in college and then pursue their pro career. What's the harm? It's been tried and it works. Sorry for the lack of detail but a couple of years ago a kid got drafted as the NHL #1 pick and decided to do a year in college because he wasn't ready for the NHL and didn't want to spend time with the cement-heads in the minors. What's wrong with that? He still gets the college experience. Everybody benefits.

Yes, the scene looks a little different when the college football and basketball announcers are telling you that this guy is the property of Oakland, the Giants or the Packers, the Pistons, but so what? I don't think that diminishes interest in the games. It also clears up a lot of false notions because the player has a better perspective on his prospects in the pros.

[President Johnny Gentle]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

It's not just baseball, it's hockey also. Guys get drafted when they are in college, stay in college and then pursue their pro career. What's the harm? It's been tried and it works. Sorry for the lack of detail but a couple of years ago a kid got drafted as the NHL #1 pick and decided to do a year in college because he wasn't ready for the NHL and didn't want to spend time with the cement-heads in the minors. What's wrong with that? He still gets the college experience. Everybody benefits.

You're right, Erik Johnson played for the Gophers for a year.

But there is a difference between the baseball and hockey situations. In hockey, basically anyone in college can be drafted in any year. Hockey players can (and occasionally do - see Kyle Okposo for a relatively recent example) also turn pro in the middle of the season as well. I'd rather basketball follow the baseball direction.

[R. P. McMurphy]

Originally Posted by President Johnny Gentle

You're right, Erik Johnson played for the Gophers for a year.

But there is a difference between the baseball and hockey situations. In hockey, basically anyone in college can be drafted in any year. Hockey players can (and occasionally do - see Kyle Okposo for a relatively recent example) also turn pro in the middle of the season as well. I'd rather basketball follow the baseball direction.

An interesting example is Chris Kreider. He played on the Boston College NCAA championship team this year and is now playing for the Rangers in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Nobody seems to find that scandalous. Who got hurt? (Answer: the guy who's roster spot he took.)

[President Johnny Gentle]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

An interesting example is Chris Kreider. He played on the Boston College NCAA championship team this year and is now playing for the Rangers in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Nobody seems to find that scandalous. Who got hurt? (Answer: the guy who's roster spot he took.)

The difference is that he left after the championship game. I don't have as many problems with that, and it happens on a regular basis. Okposo, on the other hand, joined the Islanders in December after playing the first two months of the season for the Gophers.