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  #51  
Old 03-21-2012, 09:06 PM
DocCathode DocCathode is offline
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The original Leisure Suit Larry had a slot machine segment. I could see the appeal. I also learned quickly that slots are a losing proposition without the ability to save and restore.

I played some of the new slots two years ago in Florida (Mom had gotten two free buffet and $10 gambling credit vouchers in the mail). I found it all very confusing. I prefer three wheels and one line.

Lanzy

As others have said, each spin is an independent trial. They can no more get 'hot' than a pair of dice.

Re Variable Odds

IIRC The odds of each and every machine are available from the state gamin commission. I remember a 'World's Biggest Secrets' or somesuch special on one of the networks investigated and found that odds did vary depending on placement of machine.
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  #52  
Old 03-21-2012, 09:36 PM
Leaper Leaper is offline
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I enjoy watching slot play - at least, for the machines with the neato bonus games. The ones that just give you free spins, or just have classic-style reels? BO-ring.
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  #53  
Old 03-21-2012, 09:47 PM
Mr Shine Mr Shine is offline
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I'm not really interested in any casino games for fun. Unless I've been given a +EV promotion from an online casino, I don't play.

But to those getting snippy about slots in particular, what's the difference between a slot jockey, a Craps player who only ever plays Pass/Come plus odds and a Blackjack player who only plays perfect basic strategy?

Theoretically the slot jockey will lose faster, but all 3 players are effectively just "sitting there pressing buttons", losing money, (on average), whilst not making any of their own decisions.

Last edited by Mr Shine; 03-21-2012 at 09:50 PM..
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  #54  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:46 PM
Rachellelogram Rachellelogram is offline
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I've never been to a casino and probably never will. But if I did, I'd probably play slots since I don't know any card games well enough to win. Plus if it's a penny slot, that's a lot of bang for your buck (especially with the free cocktails).
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  #55  
Old 03-22-2012, 07:44 AM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is online now
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
I can see the one after that. Bond and the crowd in dinner suites, the women in revealing cocktail dresses and gowns.

Blowfeld: Mr. Bond, it comes down to this. For the fate of the Free World *crowd gasps* call it: heads or tails.
"I believe you are familiar with the game known as 'Ro-Sham-Bo', Mr. Bond? Look down below your waist, and you'll find that in this game, my 'scissors' have the clear advantage..."
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  #56  
Old 03-22-2012, 08:59 AM
Eonwe Eonwe is offline
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
Actually some slot machines are not 'hot', but due for a win. They're designed to pay out at a fairly regular rate.
Wait, what? Are you suggesting that they program these machines to increase the odds of winning (ie, un-randomizing the results in favor of the player) based on how long it's been since the last payout?
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  #57  
Old 03-22-2012, 09:08 AM
silenus silenus is offline
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I think he means that over millions of trials, the payouts will average out at a fairly regular rate. I hope that's what he's saying. Because otherwise he's dead wrong.
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  #58  
Old 03-22-2012, 09:13 AM
Wheelz Wheelz is offline
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Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
All slot machines are, and have always been, Addiction Machines. They have the sole purpose of teasing you along while they rob you blind. They are not fun. I have trouble believing that anyone finds them so.
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Originally Posted by Terr View Post
The ultimate slot machine: a black box, you deposit $100 and scan your casino card, it asks you how long you intend to play. You say "2 hours", and leave. In 2 hours you come back, scan your card, get $70 back.
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Originally Posted by gamerunknown View Post
Stay at home and fantasise, you're just as likely to win big by a suitcase full of money dropping out of the sky. No pound in donating money to the Charitable Association of Millionaire Republican Donors.
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
I have no idea what the appeal is to sit in front of a machine pressing a button over again. Video games are about a hundred times more interesting at a tiny fraction of the price.
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Originally Posted by drewtwo99 View Post
I have never played a real slot machine though, and can't understand why anyone would. I honestly would rather just play that "guess a number" game described above.
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Originally Posted by Ogre View Post
I find it simpler just to walk up to the floor manager and ask him to kick me in the nuts repeatedly. Then I pay him $20.
Wow, you guys sound like loads of fun.

These all roughly translate to "I don't enjoy this activity, therefore nobody should." I say, to each his own. While I do prefer craps and blackjack, I play slots for three reasons:

1. I don't always feel like being mentally alert enough to make the right decisions at the tables. When I've had a few drinks and/or I've been sitting there too long, and I start to get angry at myself for making a dumb mistake, it's time to head to the slots.

2. I'm a cheapskate. It wasn't terribly long ago that you could still find a $2 blackjack table once in a while, and I could really make my gambling budget last. Now, it's hard to find even a $5 table anymore. I'll play at $10 for a while, but if I'm losing I'll walk away from that fast. No way I'm plunking down $25 or more on a hand of blackjack or a roll of the dice, ever, but these seem to be the most common tables, and anything lower is usually too crowded to get near.

3. They can actually be fun, even those incomprehensible ones the OP mentioned. Cool graphics, it's fun when you trigger the bonuses, and so forth. And if I'm not liking a particular one I'll just find another, no big deal. Most take your money relatively slowly, so if I don't come out close to even (which usually happens), at least it'll take me a while to lose my limit, and I'm having a good time while doing so.

To me, gambling money = entertainment money. Win or lose, if I'm not enjoying myself, what's the point? So if you don't enjoy slots, don't play them. But spare us your sanctimonious judgement if someone else does.
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  #59  
Old 03-22-2012, 09:21 AM
BoBettie BoBettie is offline
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I worked on a casino boat in slots as well as in the cage and have a LOT of slots experience from working with them and from playing. I nearly always come out ahead when I play slots, but I don't claim to have any secret knowledge, I just use a few strategies that work.

I only play a set amount that I want to spend that day, period end of story. Full stop. No ATM visits, no borrowing, no nothing. When that money is gone, the slots play is over and that's that.

If I do get ahead (maybe I put $50 in and win some, getting up to say $125) I won't play that money down past $100. I'll cash it out, put the ticket in my pocket and put some more cash in if I want to play it more. This keeps my winnings in one pocket and my spendies in the other. When my spendies are gone, regardless of what's in my winnings pocket, I'm done for the day/night.

I always play maximum lines with the number of credits I can comfortably swing. If it's a 9 line machine at 5 cents a line, that's 45 cents. I'll usually do that kind of machine at 3 credits/pull, $1.35/spin. If I get ahead, I may increase that to 10 credits/pull (max bet) for a few spins- the idea is that if you hit a bonus round while you happen to be playing the 10 credits/line you'll get a much higher payout. I don't play every spin at 10 credits/line or I'd be out of money in minutes, but I throw a few randoms in there to try and win. That's exactly what I did in December when I hit for $1,500 on a machine that I'd only put $50 into. I won that money, cashed it in and spent 0 more dollars at the casino- got myself a coffee and waited for my parents to finish up. Anyway, the fun, if you don't understand it, is that MAYBE when you're spinning the 10 credit/line spin you'll get the fun flashy bonus and THEN you'll have some money to cash out and it's a good day. If you're counting on that or don't find that chance fun, then I can't understand why you would play slots to begin with.

I think I'm unusual in my betting/saving practices because I used to watch people play for hours and hours and lose hundreds/thousands of dollars at slots/blackjack/roulette/craps. I love to play but never throw good money after bad or try to recoup a loss day.

By the way, I know for a fact that they intentionally make the new machines very confusing for a good reason- there is always, always a "max bet" button and if you sit down at a 25 cent machine that has like 45 lines and hit that button (drunk or not doing the math) boom, you just bet 11.25 on ONE spin. If you hit? Well good. If you didn't? Well, damn that was a lot of $$ on one spin. There are 90 line games and games where you can play 4 slots at once that are the same way- hit max bet on those and your bet might be $40 or more. They are intentionally confusing so you'll throw your money in, hit a button or two and walk away confused wondering how it went so fast. I worked with slots and paid them out by hand, so I know exactly how the pays work and even myself and my former coworker get confused by some of the new machines. That tells me that they're supposed to be confusing so that people don't have a hope of betting in a way that might get them ahead.

Damn it now I want to play some slots.
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  #60  
Old 03-22-2012, 09:25 AM
Eonwe Eonwe is offline
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Originally Posted by silenus View Post
I think he means that over millions of trials, the payouts will average out at a fairly regular rate. I hope that's what he's saying. Because otherwise he's dead wrong.
Maybe I misunderstand the probability of this, but isn't it still dead wrong to claim that the history of payouts on a machine has any bearing whatsoever on the chances that you're going to win on the machine?

If the odds are 1:10, and there are two machines.

The first machine hasn't paid out in the last 60 plays.

The second machine has paid out 9 of the last 60 plays, including the last two.

Which is more likely to win on the 61st play?

Neither. If you insist that either one is more likely, either because it's on a 'winning streak' or it's 'overdue' for a win, then you are either being willfully ignorant about how this works in order to enjoy the game a little more, or you're just stupid. Either way, you're wrong wrong wrong, just as much as if you wanted to claim 2 + 2 = 7, and you deserve to be chided and corrected.
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  #61  
Old 03-22-2012, 09:38 AM
Chessic Sense Chessic Sense is offline
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BoBettie, nothing you've said in that post makes any sense. "Good money after bad?" It's all bad once it goes into the machine. "Recoup a loss?" If you bet a dollar, it doesn't matter if you won or lost previously, especially not days before. Separating your wins from your "spendies" doesn't make any difference at all, and saving money by quitting doesn't change the fact that it would be even better to quit even earlier.

If you've won on slots, it's because you're lucky, not because you're good.
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  #62  
Old 03-22-2012, 09:42 AM
silenus silenus is offline
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Eonwe - You are correct. Each spin is a separate action that has no relationship to the spin before or the spin after. I'm just saying that after a few million spins, you will have an "average" frequency. Within any personal experience, of course, no such thing will occur. "Hot streaks" are just observer bias/wishful thinking.

Last edited by silenus; 03-22-2012 at 09:43 AM.. Reason: specify who I was replying to
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  #63  
Old 03-22-2012, 09:47 AM
Moonlitherial Moonlitherial is offline
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
It's all bad once it goes into the machine.
.
That depends on what you expect to get out of it. If you're willing to pay $X for the entertainment of sitting in a casino and spinning the wheels with no expectation of winning, there's nothing wrong with that. It's no different than sitting at the hotel bar buying overpriced drinks with no expectation of picking up the hot guy at the end of the bar.

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If you've won on slots, it's because you're lucky, not because you're good.
This one I'll give you, 100% correct.
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  #64  
Old 03-22-2012, 09:52 AM
silenus silenus is offline
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Part of the entertainment of slots is watching all the people that think what they do will influence the spin. They will wipe the screen, shake their lucky charms, speak in tongues, do whatever in an attempt to contravene basic math.
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  #65  
Old 03-22-2012, 10:06 AM
Wheelz Wheelz is offline
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
BoBettie, nothing you've said in that post makes any sense. "Good money after bad?" It's all bad once it goes into the machine. "Recoup a loss?" If you bet a dollar, it doesn't matter if you won or lost previously, especially not days before. Separating your wins from your "spendies" doesn't make any difference at all, and saving money by quitting doesn't change the fact that it would be even better to quit even earlier.
Sure it makes sense. Say I budget $100 for slot play and put it in my right pocket, and I stick it in the machine $20 at a time. I happen to hit a $150 win on the first 20, so I cash that out and put it in my left pocket. I'm now free to play the other $80 in my right pocket with the knowledge thet I will be up at the end of the day no matter what. So okay, sure, if I then lose the $80 I'm worse off than if I'd just quit with $230; I concede this. But I'm still $50 up on the day, and I had some fun with it, so I'm not complaining. BoBettie's point is that most people will simply gamble away the $150 as well as the $80.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
If you've won on slots, it's because you're lucky, not because you're good.
Or because you knew when to walk away. It's not a given, but there's a fairly good chance that at some point you'll have more money than you started with. It just takes a little discipline to subsequently hang on to it.

Last edited by Wheelz; 03-22-2012 at 10:09 AM..
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  #66  
Old 03-22-2012, 10:31 AM
BoBettie BoBettie is offline
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
BoBettie, nothing you've said in that post makes any sense. "Good money after bad?" It's all bad once it goes into the machine. "Recoup a loss?" If you bet a dollar, it doesn't matter if you won or lost previously, especially not days before. Separating your wins from your "spendies" doesn't make any difference at all, and saving money by quitting doesn't change the fact that it would be even better to quit even earlier.

If you've won on slots, it's because you're lucky, not because you're good.
I never said I was good. I am lucky and I manage what winnings I have well. That was my point.
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  #67  
Old 03-22-2012, 10:32 AM
BoBettie BoBettie is offline
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Originally Posted by Wheelz View Post
Sure it makes sense. Say I budget $100 for slot play and put it in my right pocket, and I stick it in the machine $20 at a time. I happen to hit a $150 win on the first 20, so I cash that out and put it in my left pocket. I'm now free to play the other $80 in my right pocket with the knowledge thet I will be up at the end of the day no matter what. So okay, sure, if I then lose the $80 I'm worse off than if I'd just quit with $230; I concede this. But I'm still $50 up on the day, and I had some fun with it, so I'm not complaining. BoBettie's point is that most people will simply gamble away the $150 as well as the $80.

Or because you knew when to walk away. It's not a given, but there's a fairly good chance that at some point you'll have more money than you started with. It just takes a little discipline to subsequently hang on to it.
Thanks for getting what I was trying to say.
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  #68  
Old 03-22-2012, 10:36 AM
Algorithm Algorithm is offline
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Originally Posted by Wheelz View Post
Or because you knew when to walk away. It's not a given, but there's a fairly good chance that at some point you'll have more money than you started with. It just takes a little discipline to subsequently hang on to it.
The most likely outcome is that you never have more than you started with, so "discipline" with regards to actually playing the machine is irrelevant. If you've ever won money from a slot machine, the odds are overwhelming that you've previously played enough to have many times negated your winnings.
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  #69  
Old 03-22-2012, 10:43 AM
jsc1953 jsc1953 is online now
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Wheelz absolutely nailed it.

All gambling is about money management and entertainment value. Lots of people find slots -- especially the new video slots with bonus games and tons of bells & whistles -- fun and harmless and occasionally profitable. If you don't find slots entertaining: each to their own, and nobody's holding a gun to your head.
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  #70  
Old 03-22-2012, 10:46 AM
jsc1953 jsc1953 is online now
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
The most likely outcome is that you never have more than you started with, so "discipline" with regards to actually playing the machine is irrelevant. If you've ever won money from a slot machine, the odds are overwhelming that you've previously played enough to have many times negated your winnings.
You're confusing long-term expectations with short-term outcomes. If two players spin a slot a million times, both will wind up with 96% of what they started with. If one of those players gets up and walks away every time he's ahead, he'll probably die of old age (and with >100% in his pocket) before he gets to his millionth spin.

Last edited by jsc1953; 03-22-2012 at 10:47 AM..
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  #71  
Old 03-22-2012, 10:50 AM
ralph124c ralph124c is offline
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Agree with you totally-I think these machines induce a kind of mental stupor.
As others have pointed out, people don't want the complexity of board games-they want to sit and pull levers all day.
Years ago, I had a friend who claimed that slot machines were programmed to make small payouts early in play-so if you watched people, and timed the interval from when they stopped playing..then resumed play, you could make a small positive return-he claimed the period was about 8-10 minutes. He once blew an afternoon in a casino doing this-he made about $300.
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  #72  
Old 03-22-2012, 10:57 AM
jsc1953 jsc1953 is online now
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Originally Posted by ralph124c View Post
Years ago, I had a friend who claimed that slot machines were programmed to make small payouts early in play-so if you watched people, and timed the interval from when they stopped playing..then resumed play, you could make a small positive return-he claimed the period was about 8-10 minutes. He once blew an afternoon in a casino doing this-he made about $300.
There are lots of myth, legend, and superstition about slots. Somebody gets lucky and thinks he has a system, and it makes as much sense as "I had chocolate ice cream and then won $500 in a slot, ergo chocolate ice cream makes jackpots appear."

The facts are: all spins are independent, so a machine can't be "hot" or "cold" or "due"; in the same way that if a coin comes up heads 5 times in a row, it's not "due" to come up tails.

The payout rate is calculated for banks of machines; individual machine payout rates can vary. So the machine in a particular location may pay off better (on average over time) than its identical neighbor.
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  #73  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:01 AM
obfusciatrist obfusciatrist is offline
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I certainly enjoy the "incomprehensible" machines a lot more than the classic three-reel, single line 7-7-7 ones.

Here's why I gamble:

To find out what happens.


Winning or losing doesn't really enter into the picture because I am disciplined enough that I never gamble money that particularly matters to me. I just want to see what happens, and wining means I'll get to do that more times than losing.

I don't think there is anything I can do to impact the outcome of a slot machine (and yes, I agree that most table games are just slower versions of slot machines when played correctly). I don't think "hot" or "cold" is anything other than statistical clumping. I don't think that seeing JACKPOT - JACKPOT - JACKPOT - JACKPOT - TURD is any closer to actually having won a jackpot than JACKPOT - TURD - TURD - TURD - TURD.

So, what I am interested in is maximizing the number of possible outcomes from a bet and the money is just there to give me some reason to care about the outcome (but again, not so much money that I can be damaged by the outcome). Similarly, even when it isn't for money, joining a pick 'em league for football makes me suddenly care who wins that week's Atlanta-Jacksonville game.

So the modern complex machines provide better variety of outcome in the short term (in the long term it is the same: I'm out of money for that session). And I enjoy that. Until I don't. Then I stop.

Slots aren't my preferred casino RNG, but my wife likes them and it isn't unpleasant to sit as adjacent machines, pushing buttons and just talking.

Last edited by obfusciatrist; 03-22-2012 at 11:03 AM..
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  #74  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:04 AM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is online now
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I had a friend who worked on slots in Vegas. He explained to me that those 98% payback ads are for the dollar (at that time) slots, and then, only when all the lines were used. So it was really like a 5 dollar bet. The lower the machines bet wise, the lower the payback percentage wise.
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  #75  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:12 AM
Chessic Sense Chessic Sense is offline
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Originally Posted by Wheelz View Post
I happen to hit a $150 ...I will be up at the end of the day no matter what. ...

Or because you knew when to walk away. It's not a given, but there's a fairly good chance that at some point you'll have more money than you started with. It just takes a little discipline to subsequently hang on to it.
Yes, you're correct. If you happen to hit, you'll be up. And if you don't gamble it, you'll still be up "at the end of the day". If you happen to hit. Guess what happens more often than not?

Look, all BoBettie is describing is a system where you force yourself to quit. The system isn't a "money management" system, it's simply betting less. The key to the whole thing is that you're playing less slots at the end of the day.

So like I said, I have an even better system- don't play at all. Then your EV is 0. Putting money in different pockets isn't changing the EV of each spin.

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Originally Posted by BoBettie View Post
I never said I was good. I am lucky and I manage what winnings I have well. That was my point.
You don't manage winnings well any more than I do by not playing at all. In fact, I'm managing it better than you are. So your system lets you make, say, 200 spins. You'd manage those winnings better with a system- any system- that makes you spin 199 times. Or 198. Or 197....or 0.

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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
If two players spin a slot a million times, both will wind up with 96% of what they started with. If one of those players gets up and walks away every time he's ahead, he'll probably die of old age (and with >100% in his pocket) before he gets to his millionth spin.
This is a common error in gambling math. You don't end with 96% of what you started with (assuming the rake is 4%.) You end up with 96% of what you bet overall. Those numbers are only the same if you started with the same amount that a million spins would cost. Winning early to fund later spins doesn't count.

But yes, the guy that walks away when he wins is going to do better over time...because he stopped playing. Playing less, as I said, is always an improvement.
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  #76  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:17 AM
jsc1953 jsc1953 is online now
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
So like I said, I have an even better system- don't play at all. Then your EV is 0. Putting money in different pockets isn't changing the EV of each spin.
Sure, but let's start with the assumption that we're in a casino to have fun. Person A plays slots all day, gets to say "woohoo! bonus game!" several times, and walks away even. Person B stays in his room watching C-SPAN and walks away even.

I think Person A had a better day.
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  #77  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:26 AM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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What if person A was killed by a volcanic eruption from a previously undiscovered volcano under the casino, and person B gets an army of Swedish hookers sent to his room by mistake?
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  #78  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:28 AM
Baal Houtham Baal Houtham is offline
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post

Look, all BoBettie is describing is a system where you force yourself to quit. The system isn't a "money management" system, it's simply betting less. The key to the whole thing is that you're playing less slots at the end of the day.
Yepper. It's stunning that anyone can convince themselves otherwise. No matter when you start or stop, if you play 100,000 pulls on a machine that returns 90% you're going to drop an average of $10,000. You can spread it out over 20 days or 20 years -- it doesn't matter.

If there was a system that allowed knowledgeable people to beat slots, then Vegas would have gone dark a looong time ago.
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  #79  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:35 AM
CrazyCatLady CrazyCatLady is offline
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
BoBettie, nothing you've said in that post makes any sense. "Good money after bad?" It's all bad once it goes into the machine. "Recoup a loss?" If you bet a dollar, it doesn't matter if you won or lost previously, especially not days before. Separating your wins from your "spendies" doesn't make any difference at all, and saving money by quitting doesn't change the fact that it would be even better to quit even earlier.
That's one of the silliest things I've ever seen on this board. It's not all "bad" money the second it goes in the machine, any more than the money for concert tickets or greens fees or zoo/fair/museum admission or bar drinks is "bad" money the second it goes into the cash register. It's just what you're willing to pay for a certain amount of time doing something you enjoy.

I mean, you wouldn't say to someone "Saving money by not buying popcorn doesn't change the fact that it would be better to not go to the movies at all." Yes, that person would save money by not buying that movie ticket, but it doesn't really follow that they're better off sitting around staring at the walls with that extra $10 in their hand. Same thing with BoBettie's slots and my trips to the track. We have each determined that we are willing to spend $x on an afternoon's entertainment. If it so happens that we get a little something extra, that's awesome. If we don't get anything extra, we still had $x worth of fun, so it was worth it. This is not rocket surgery.
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  #80  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:36 AM
Normal Phase Normal Phase is offline
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Serious question, but when you play those penny or nickel slots in which players often play 20 or 50 lines (or whatever), do you understand why you win? Because I just see lines going all over the place and cannot figure out what combinations are losers, which are winners, or even just how close I came to winning a jackpot. The gameplay is utterly baffling.
I think that's the point. Well not so much that it's baffling as that it's complex. "Look I can win this way, or this way, or even this way or this way. Cool!" And then you get to watch for all these different possibilities on each press of the button, instead of the boring old single line. It doesn't seem to matter that the complex machines as well as the boring ones are calibrated to pay back 95 cents on the dollar (or whatever it is) just the same. It feels like you have more chances to win. So they do a better job of sucking people in.
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  #81  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:39 AM
silenus silenus is offline
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
What if person A was killed by a volcanic eruption from a previously undiscovered volcano under the casino, and person B gets an army of Swedish hookers sent to his room by mistake?
I didn't see that option on the Room Service menu at Wynn. Is that a Venetian offering?
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  #82  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:44 AM
glee glee is offline
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I've spent several months on holiday in Vegas over the past few years.

1. Slots make a profit for every casino.
That's why there is so much floor space devoted to them.
Just as with roulette, there is no 'system' to beat them.
Since there are vast numbers of people playing, there will be some winners (a minority of course.) But it's luck, not skill.

2. No slots player has ever bothered me, whether I'm wandering through the casino, eating or playing poker.
Therefore, as long as they are playing for money they can afford to lose, I have no criticism of such folk.

3. I personally would rather play poker.
You get a professional dealer, casino chips, a chance to use your skill to win ("All in!") and beautiful cocktail waitresses will serve you a drink every 30 minutes or so.
But slots are in constant use, so they must appeal to many people. And the money they lose to the casino means my hotel room and buffet are good value.
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  #83  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:44 AM
Wheelz Wheelz is offline
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
Look, all BoBettie is describing is a system where you force yourself to quit. The system isn't a "money management" system, it's simply betting less. The key to the whole thing is that you're playing less slots at the end of the day.
...
You don't manage winnings well any more than I do by not playing at all. In fact, I'm managing it better than you are. So your system lets you make, say, 200 spins. You'd manage those winnings better with a system- any system- that makes you spin 199 times. Or 198. Or 197....or 0.
...
But yes, the guy that walks away when he wins is going to do better over time...because he stopped playing. Playing less, as I said, is always an improvement.
It sounds like we're fundamentally in agreement here, but have different overall philosophies on the subject. I enjoy playing slots now and then. It's fun, and a little bit exciting. Even when I lose, I usually walk away smiling. It's entertainment, and people pay for entertainment all the time.

So saying that the only way to never lose at gambling is to never gamble, you're absolutely right, of course. But you're also sort of missing the point.
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  #84  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:46 AM
Normal Phase Normal Phase is offline
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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
You're confusing long-term expectations with short-term outcomes. If two players spin a slot a million times, both will wind up with 96% of what they started with. If one of those players gets up and walks away every time he's ahead, he'll probably die of old age (and with >100% in his pocket) before he gets to his millionth spin.
Sorry, that's just not the way it works. Statistics is a bitch. But look up flipping coins. If you start off on a losing streak (say three heads and seven tails in the first ten), not only are you very unlikely to ever get back to even from there, you are likely actually to get further away from even as the number of flips increases. And that's with even odds, not a casino's bias. So if you take a hundred guys who are determined to walk away whenever they get ahead but just keep playing otherwise, until they do, then most of those hundred guys are going to leave the game having lost all their money. They will never have been ahead at all, not once.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:48 AM
Anaamika Anaamika is offline
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I play slots. Not a lot, but when we went to Vegas we probably played at each hotel, maybe $10-$20 at a time. Sometimes we made it back (once we made $100), sometimes we'd lose it.

We didn't go to the slots that were plain and boring. Our favorite was this two player one where you could both sit together, that was nice. Or the Wheel! of! Fortune! one that would shout and spin the wheel and flash lights.

It's just entertainment is all.
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  #86  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:59 AM
jsc1953 jsc1953 is online now
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Originally Posted by Normal Phase View Post
Sorry, that's just not the way it works. Statistics is a bitch. But look up flipping coins. If you start off on a losing streak (say three heads and seven tails in the first ten), not only are you very unlikely to ever get back to even from there, you are likely actually to get further away from even as the number of flips increases.
Seriously? You think that if you flip a coin a million times, starting off with 7 tails will make it unlikely that you'll wind up with 500k heads at the end? Only if your coin has two tails on it.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:14 PM
Trepa Mayfield Trepa Mayfield is offline
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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
Seriously? You think that if you flip a coin a million times, starting off with 7 tails will make it unlikely that you'll wind up with 500k heads at the end? Only if your coin has two tails on it.
Not 500k heads. *More* than 500k heads. And she's right. Check out random walks: like everything else regarding probability, they are weird and unintuitive.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:16 PM
Chessic Sense Chessic Sense is offline
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Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady View Post
That's one of the silliest things I've ever seen on this board. . . . It's just what you're willing to pay for a certain amount of time doing something you enjoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelz View Post
So saying that the only way to never lose at gambling is to never gamble, you're absolutely right, of course. But you're also sort of missing the point.
I'm not missing the point and I haven't disputed that it can be money well-spent for some people. What I've disputed is Bo's claim that it's not money spent. If you want to say "I've got a system that makes it fun," that's indisputable. If you say "I've got a system that makes me money," as BoBettie did, you're flat-out, dead wrong.

Now if she wants to come back and say "You're right, my system doesn't win me money in the long run, but it's still fun," then we can say we're in agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
Seriously? You think that if you flip a coin a million times, starting off with 7 tails will make it unlikely that you'll wind up with 500k heads at the end? Only if your coin has two tails on it.
That's what he's saying, and it's true. It's not impossible, of course, but it's less likely than getting 499,993 heads and 500,007 tails.

If you start off flipping a fair coin, the over the long run, it'll trend to even. But if you end up getting a run of anything other than even in, say, the first ten spins, then the coin will forever trend to that count. That is, if you get 7 heads and 3 tails, then the long-term trend with forevermore be toward +4 heads. Oh, the percentage will head back toward 50%/50% as the flip counts gets higher and higher, but it'll always be +4. The only way to stop that trend is to say "Those first ten flips don't count anymore. We're starting over." and then it's back to +0 heads.
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  #89  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:18 PM
Chessic Sense Chessic Sense is offline
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Originally Posted by Trepa Mayfield View Post
Not 500k heads.
Even 500k is unlikely. Even 499,994 is unlikely. And by 'unlikely', I strictly mean less that .5000 probability of happening, not that I'd be floored if it did just so happen.
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  #90  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:26 PM
jsc1953 jsc1953 is online now
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
That is, if you get 7 heads and 3 tails, then the long-term trend with forevermore be toward +4 heads. Oh, the percentage will head back toward 50%/50% as the flip counts gets higher and higher, but it'll always be +4. The only way to stop that trend is to say "Those first ten flips don't count anymore. We're starting over." and then it's back to +0 heads.
I'll buy that. Since the last 999,990 flips will tend to be 50/50, we would expect that our final count will be +4. Makes sense. (My reaction was based on the (perhaps faulty) reading that Normal Phase was saying that the percentage will forever be weighted towards tails.)

Last edited by jsc1953; 03-22-2012 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:04 PM
Chessic Sense Chessic Sense is offline
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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
I'll buy that. Since the last 999,990 flips will tend to be 50/50, we would expect that our final count will be +4. Makes sense. (My reaction was based on the (perhaps faulty) reading that Normal Phase was saying that the percentage will forever be weighted towards tails.)
Technically, it will always be weighted, as if you agree that there will always be +4 heads not matter how long the projected run is, then you must agree that the percentages can never be equal. The percentage actually approaches a limit of 50, which means it never gets there, no matter how many real-number flips you want to project out.

Keep in mind that this only hold before the 11th flip. It's like saying "What if I flip it 100 more times? 1,000 more? 1,000,000 more times? A bajillion more times?" Naturally, once you actually do the 11th flip, at +4 long-term expectation becomes a +3 or +5 expectation, which becomes a +2, +4, or +6 expectation after the 12th flip, and so on. Thus is the random walk.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:10 PM
Anamorphic Anamorphic is offline
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I go to Vegas reasonably often (once or twice a year), and am mainly a table game player (poker and craps mostly these days), but I'll usually throw 20 or 60 bucks into slot machines during my few day stay there. I find them fun and relaxing. It's entertainment - entertainment with a (admittedly, small) chance of paying for said entertainment and walking away with more money then I sat down with.

I remember my first experience with the new(er) breed of video slot machines, years ago. It was the first Star Wars video slot machine, which is what drew me to it. I sat down and put in $20 and began to play. There was so much going on in the game, I literally had no idea what was happening. So much on the screen, I couldn't even tell how much money I was going through - in hindsight, I'm pretty sure the money must have been set to display in credits rather than a dollar amount, which is why I wasn't noticing it. Things were happening, lights were flashing, occasionally the big Death Star at the top of the machine would spin... After about 15 or 20 minutes of this, and still not having any better idea of what was really happening and a little frustrated, I decided to cash out, still not sure whether I was up or down. The ticket printed up... and I was delighted to find out that the $20 I'd put in had turned into a bit over $120. I was no longer frustrated.

That isn't the only time I've walked away a winner on a slot - my biggest win was $500 on a Wheel of Fortune machine. I walked away as soon as I won it, and paid for a nice meal for my friends and I. The biggest win I know of from someone I know personally - a close friend of my uncle won a jackpot from the same Wheel of Fortune machine (well, not the SAME exact machine, I mean). He won a bit over a million dollars. I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's given it all back since then, though. He and his wife live in Vegas now, and apparently gamble quite a bit.

But yeah - the majority of the time, you are going to go through your money. But - even then, I've always felt entertained. The Lord Of The Rings slot machine is a lot of fun, actually.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:11 PM
Moonlitherial Moonlitherial is offline
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Originally Posted by Anamorphic View Post
The Lord Of The Rings slot machine is a lot of fun, actually.
That's my personal favorite
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  #94  
Old 03-22-2012, 01:14 PM
silenus silenus is offline
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Originally Posted by Moonlitherial View Post
That's my personal favorite
Ours, too. That one they added additional hooks to to get you to play with the various trophies in each bonus round (which mean nothing) and the miles collected to unlock additional bonuses. Total manipulation of the weak-minded.

-silenus (325 miles, 28 trophies)

Last edited by silenus; 03-22-2012 at 01:15 PM..
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:16 PM
thelurkinghorror thelurkinghorror is online now
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The best I witnessed on WoF was $20 to ~$1000. The thing about that game and others: it requires you to make the max bet on the machine in order to activate the Wheel! Of! Fortune! spin. Other machines like progressives might require max bet as well in order to start the big draw of the machine. IIRC these don't normally require you to bet all lines, however.

My recent favorite is one of those with 4 or 5 chairs in a row. The entire top is a semi-seamless row of video screens. It is a fishing theme, and your character up top catches fish as you play, all different species in an improbable biome.
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  #96  
Old 03-22-2012, 01:16 PM
chela chela is offline
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hmmm thanks for that.

See I've never been in a casino. Staying in AC soon,at Caesars. Just for fun and bec ause sometimes I have beginners luck, ( someone in our party has to hit it big) I was going to warm up on the slots, my strategy was to steal an oldladys seat. to me penny slots sound like torture, as do the movie style ones. But if can parlay my pennies into a pile I'll then maybe venture to blackjack.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:17 PM
Anamorphic Anamorphic is offline
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Originally Posted by Moonlitherial View Post
That's my personal favorite
Then I'm sure you know you can play little Flash games online at http://playerslife.com/ with your game login/password to earn more miles for the next time you play the slot at the casino?
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:19 PM
Moonlitherial Moonlitherial is offline
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Originally Posted by Anamorphic View Post
Then I'm sure you know you can play little Flash games online at http://playerslife.com/ with your game login/password to earn more miles for the next time you play the slot at the casino?
NO I was not. This is altogther awesome. I need to bank some miles for my visit in July

Thanks!
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:19 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
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All told I'm at least $200 ahead playing slots. I could stay that way by never playing slots again. So there's a perfect system. 1) Win first 2) Quit playing. Granted step 1 is the tough one. And I'm not doing step 2, I played the slots initially just to have a little fun, and I'd have to lose a lot more before I quit doing it. There's also another way to win. Go on the slow nights when they're giving free drinks to players. Put some money in the machine. Take the drinks. Cash out before you ever spin. But you'll never get anywhere trying to make the odds work in your favor, because they aren't.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:20 PM
Anamorphic Anamorphic is offline
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Originally Posted by Moonlitherial View Post
NO I was not. This is altogther awesome. I need to bank some miles for my visit in July

Thanks!
It's pretty cool; I love the interactiveness of the new games have (and yes, I realize it's mainly manipulation to get you to continue to play - but damnit, it's fun!).

The only thing about the online miles is, it's only good until you reach the next checkpoint. Then you need to go play on the actual slot before you can start online again. Or something like that.
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