Game of Thrones Season 2 - OPEN SPOILERS Discussion Thread

[TruCelt]

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

What was in the letter that Theon burned?

. . . .

I couldn't read much, but it appeared to be a letter warning Rob of the coming attack. The scene showed him dithering, and finally deciding his loyalty was to the Iron Islands.

So I switched to FIOS and ordered HBO in no small part because I wanted to see this series - and I have to say I'm disappointed. The shooting is entirely too dark - not sure why they even bothered to build sets! (Or maybe they didn't? ) And the soft-pron action is annoying. While the books are fairly vulgar and lusty, Martin doesn't give us the blow-by-blow, and no one could call them bodice-rippers.

I came in late, but Theon was in no way smirky enough IMHO, and I expected him to be well-built but almost metro-sexual. Instead he's really rather skinny and shaggy.

Loved Brienne! I can't call her ugly, but she's nailed the manly movements and subtle gestures of a warrior.

Sansa is also very well played, as is Arya. Gendry is older than I expected him to be.

I haven't had any issues with the editing yet - they've got to make some changes and I reckon they've done a reasonable job of it.

Only seen two episodes, so reserve the right to recant any of the above! LOL!

[DigitalC]

Robb,
I hope this reaches you in time. My father
has rejected the offer and plans to attack
the North, raiding the shores and taking
Deepwood Motte, mobilize your army and
make for the North before it's too late.
I'll write again when i can.


Theon

[drastic_quench]

P.S.

Moustache Kisses

[gonzoron]

Originally Posted by drastic_quench

P.S.

Moustache Kisses

LOL.

[Jilaad]

Regarding Margery's virginity, there was an exchange in this episode (I forgot between who) that went something like:

Person A: Is she still a virgin?
Person B: "Officially" she is.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by TruCelt

The shooting is entirely too dark - not sure why they even bothered to build sets! (Or maybe they didn't? )

Yes, why not show a black screen and have the actors read their parts?

[Emiliana]

Hi all, new poster.

Was Theon baptized to the Drowned God in the book? I thought the baptisms involved actual drowning (what is dead can never die) or at least submersion to the point of passing out.

[TruCelt]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

Robb,
I hope this reaches you in time. My father
has rejected the offer and plans to attack
the North, raiding the shores and taking
Deepwood Motte, mobilize your army and
make for the North before it's too late.
I'll write again when i can.


Theon

Come to think of it - how could he have sent it? Did Balon have a Maester? I doubt it. And even if he did, don't the Maesters read everything they send?

[gonzoron]

Originally Posted by Emiliana

Hi all, new poster.

Was Theon baptized to the Drowned God in the book? I thought the baptisms involved actual drowning (what is dead can never die) or at least submersion to the point of passing out.

According to towerofthehand.com:

he priests of the faith are served by the drowned men who aid them and protect them. They wear robes of mottled blue, green, and gray and carry cudgels. To become a drowned man, a man must be drowned in the sea and resuscitated by a priest. Every newborn used to be drowned in this manner, but now they are usually just quickly dipped in a tub of seawater.

So it seems that nowadays, a regular baptism suffices for the laymen. The drowning/CPR thing is only for the drowned men who serve the priests.

(Still, would have been cool to see that in the show, I think)

[Snarky_Kong]

Originally Posted by TruCelt

Come to think of it - how could he have sent it? Did Balon have a Maester? I doubt it. And even if he did, don't the Maesters read everything they send?

The Ironborn keep Maesters. Victarion has one on his ship until late in ADWD. They shouldn't read any of the letters. Lords would seal letters before sending them, the recipient would know if the seal was broken.

(minor) Spoiler for Winds of Winter

SPOILER:

In the Theon chapter it was said that ravens only fly to one location. So this basically would mean that a moving army would be impossible to reach via raven. I think that's a mistake on Martin's part since it makes the logistics nearly impossible.

[SecretaryofEvil]

Episode 3 was definitely the strongest of season 2 so far. I found the first 2 eps a little slow, and I think they needed to spend a bit more time on Dragonstone introducing non book people to Stannis and company.

The Iron Islands segments were excellent. I actually think the show handled them slightly better than the book did. You really see the internal struggle Theon is going through, being stuck between a rock and hard place. The letter burning scene said so much with so little, and I loved Theon's baptismal. You could tell Theon was thinking "Daddy's finally paying attention to me!"

[JSexton]

Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong

(minor) Spoiler for Winds of Winter

SPOILER:

In the Theon chapter it was said that ravens only fly to one location. So this basically would mean that a moving army would be impossible to reach via raven. I think that's a mistake on Martin's part since it makes the logistics nearly impossible.

Not really a spoiler, just a discussion and speculation on how ravens work.

SPOILER:

From the maps shown, it seems like towns aren't terribly far apart. If an army sends a message home saying "We'll be stopping for supplies at Morristown tomorrow, send ravens there" or even "We're a half-day quick ride from Whoville, will check in for messages" then that seems to keep lines of communication open. It's certainly no worse than communication during the Revolutionary War and earlier times, and logistics worked fine then.

[bouv]

Originally Posted by JSexton

Not really a spoiler, just a discussion and speculation on how ravens work.

SPOILER:

From the maps shown, it seems like towns aren't terribly far apart. If an army sends a message home saying "We'll be stopping for supplies at Morristown tomorrow, send ravens there" or even "We're a half-day quick ride from Whoville, will check in for messages" then that seems to keep lines of communication open. It's certainly no worse than communication during the Revolutionary War and earlier times, and logistics worked fine then.

Yeah, Theon could just send a raven to whatever is the closest castle/keep/holdfast he has a raven for (probably Twin's Crossing/The Freys) and they would send a rider/scout out to him. So not as super-fast as a raven going right to you, but only delayed by a day or two.

Though given how far Robb's army is from places like Deepwood Motte, where Asha/Yara's army is landing, I doubt he could get there before they attack anyway...the Iron Islands aren't very far from the west coast of The North.

[hogarth]

From the books, the raven system never seemed to make much logical sense to me; there always seemed to be an arbitrarily large number of them that traveled at arbitrarily high speed.

[Bridget Burke]

Concerning the "darkness" of so many scenes--I thought so last year, too. (That's actual darkness, not the grisly & depressing nature of many scenes.)

Then I got a 21st century TV & let Comcast start charging me for HD. The screen isn't huge but far better than the old one. I watched the first series On Demand just before this season began & marveled at how much better I could see everything....

[Taomist]

Originally Posted by gonzoron

According to towerofthehand.com:


So it seems that nowadays, a regular baptism suffices for the laymen. The drowning/CPR thing is only for the drowned men who serve the priests.

(Still, would have been cool to see that in the show, I think)

Ah, ok. I still wish they would have used that opportunity to show the whole thing, because it's pretty neat.

[AuntiePam]

Over at SFF World, one of the resident SOIAF experts says that Theon had the full drowning baptism as a child. There's also talk about a character named Damphair (sp?) who will appear later and re-baptize Theon. Or somebody. We should be seeing it.

[Snarky_Kong]

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

Over at SFF World, one of the resident SOIAF experts says that Theon had the full drowning baptism as a child. There's also talk about a character named Damphair (sp?) who will appear later and re-baptize Theon. Or somebody. We should be seeing it.

Damphair's his uncle. I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be him in that chapter.

One of the men is drowned at Winterfell. That's probably what happens. I really doubt Theon gets baptized twice, especially only the first four episodes were released to the media.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Okay, who else pronounces Damphair as "Damn Fair"?

[Snarky_Kong]

I did until someone asked me who the fuck I was talking about.

[DigitalC]

Wait, it's not pronounced like that?

[bouv]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

Wait, it's not pronounced like that?

Assuming you're not joking, it's DampHair...because he's a priest of the Drowned God...he lives near the ocean...gets wet a lot...

[Elendil's Heir]

Maybe he could get an endorsement contract with Prell.

[purplehorseshoe]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Okay, who else pronounces Damphair as "Damn Fair"?

*raises hand*

Originally Posted by bouv

Assuming you're not joking, it's DampHair...because he's a priest of the Drowned God...he lives near the ocean...gets wet a lot...

*smacks forehead*

[Drain Bead]

Does anyone else think that the whole scene with Luwin telling Bran about his Valyrian steel link for studying the old magic is perhaps a good bit of foreshadowing about where Sam's story arc might end up? Especially with Sam's "I always wanted to be a wizard" line from last season.

[drastic_quench]

Originally Posted by Drain Bead

Does anyone else think that the whole scene with Luwin telling Bran about his Valyrian steel link for studying the old magic is perhaps a good bit of foreshadowing about where Sam's story arc might end up? Especially with Sam's "I always wanted to be a wizard" line from last season.

It's more foreshadowing Bran's destiny with old magic, but yeah, open spoiler




Jon sends Sam off to become a Maester, IIRC.

[DigitalC]

Originally Posted by purplehorseshoe

*smacks forehead*

Yeah, that is me right now. Something i have been wondering lately, did Robb get killed twice? We never got a PoV from Robb so we don't know how "wargy" he was compared to the other kids, but assuming he is like the others that would mean he died at the Red Wedding then got killed again as Grey Wind. Which just makes the whole thing all the more horrible.

[drastic_quench]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

Yeah, that is me right now. Something i have been wondering lately, did Robb get killed twice? We never got a PoV from Robb so we don't know how "wargy" he was compared to the other kids, but assuming he is like the others that would mean he died at the Red Wedding then got killed again as Grey Wind. Which just makes the whole thing all the more horrible.

I'd love to see him resurrected with that wolf head as a sort of werewolf. No way that'll ever happen, of course.

[Emiliana]

I have a vague memory from the books that the hard core Drowned God followers looked down upon the wimpy nobles who only got a bit of water dribbled on them as a baptism. Hence my surprise at Theon's baptism in the show.

The scene looked like it was supposed to be so intense--Theon committing himself to the Drowned God, his father and sister watching, Theon looking intensely at his father, etc. etc. Then dribble, dribble.

[AuntiePam]

How did Littlefinger know that Cat was in Renly's camp?

She was with Robb a couple episodes ago when Robb responded to Lannister terms, and asked for Ned's bones to be returned. So how did Tyrion know where to send Littlefinger and the bones?

[Snarky_Kong]

Was the Tickler supposed to just be a sadist in the book? I always though he was calculating and cold, not, seemingly flippant. We didn't get any of his "is there gold in the village? How many men? How many Archers?" line of questioning.

Are they going to open next week with Renly biting it?

[AuntiePam]

Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong

Was the Tickler supposed to just be a sadist in the book? I always though he was calculating and cold, not, seemingly flippant. We didn't get any of his "is there gold in the village? How many men? How many Archers?" line of questioning.

We got some of that, but I didn't notice it until the second viewing. Someone asked about gold and silver, anyway.

What's this "brotherhood"? I don't remember a brotherhood from the books.

[Snarky_Kong]

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

We got some of that, but I didn't notice it until the second viewing. Someone asked about gold and silver, anyway.

What's this "brotherhood"? I don't remember a brotherhood from the books.

The brotherhood without banners. It's the group that started with the remnants of the group that Ned sent to kill Gregor. The main two figures are Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion (Where is Lord Beric. How many men did he have, etc.). Later Lady Stoneheart joins.

[DigitalC]

I am saddened to see that the scenes of Arya traveling with the mountains men were all cut. That was some of the best writing Martin did.

[bouv]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

I am saddened to see that the scenes of Arya traveling with the mountains men were all cut. That was some of the best writing Martin did.

I can see why they cut it, though. It would take up a lot of time, much simpler to do what they did, and have their capture happen when Ser Amory attacks them, and then to skip right to Harrenhall and have The Tickler show up there. I do hope we get some more of him, though...especially more "is there gold in the village? How much?!" so when Arya offs him in what will likely be season 4 it will be all the more satisfying.

It was nice we got a brief glimpse of Roose Bolton this episode, and even in that short time we found out his love of flaying.

[MaxTheVool]

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

How did Littlefinger know that Cat was in Renly's camp?

She was with Robb a couple episodes ago when Robb responded to Lannister terms, and asked for Ned's bones to be returned. So how did Tyrion know where to send Littlefinger and the bones?

Meh, I think we can safely assume that everyone has spies in everyone's camp, and very visible things like "Lady Stark has shown up and talked to the king in clear view of everyone" get reported around quickly enough... no need for further details.

[Lantern]

So what did you think of Talisa the healer? I liked her character and scene and it will be interesting to see how she fits into the story. Is she a replacement for Jeyne Westerling? Or is she Jeyne in disguise? Her character is very different from Jeyne, who was rather bland and forgettable in the book.

[HazelNutCoffee]

I'm assuming she is Jeyne's replacement. I didn't think she could be her in disguise; that would be interesting.

I can't remember - is Robb deliberately set up from the beginning by Jeyne's family in the book (the Westerlings?) or did the set-up come later after he had fallen in love with her?

I thought it was interesting that Bolton was replaced by Tywin as the guy who takes Arya as his cupbearer. I suppose they want to give Tywin more screen time.

[Lantern]

Incidentally she is played by Oona Chaplin, granddaughter of Charlie.

[bouv]

Originally Posted by HazelNutCoffee

I'm assuming she is Jeyne's replacement. I didn't think she could be her in disguise; that would be interesting.

I can't remember - is Robb deliberately set up from the beginning by Jeyne's family in the book (the Westerlings?) or did the set-up come later after he had fallen in love with her?

I thought it was interesting that Bolton was replaced by Tywin as the guy who takes Arya as his cupbearer. I suppose they want to give Tywin more screen time.

It might be her in disguise, or maybe they just changed her name to Talisa (perhaps to avoid confusion if/when they add the Jeyne Poole character, which if they get to book 5 will be necessary.)

I seriously doubt they would change her so much as to actually make her from Volantis, so I assume that was her lying...or perhaps just joking, since Robb would clearly know from the lack of any accent that she is not Volantese.

The set up was after the marriage, IIRC...the Westerlings are bannermen to the Lannisters, so I'm guessing her family bent the knee to Robb when he conquered their land and said they were ok with the marriage, but then did everything they could to get back on the Lannisters good side, fearing they would win the war. I don't think there was any kind of plan from the Westerlings to deliberately get Robb and Jeyne to marry to piss off the Freys.

As to Arya being a cupbearer, I'm thinking when Roose takes over Harrenhall after the Weasel Soup Incident, he'll just keep her as his cup bearer as well.

Though since Roose is with Robb right now, I'm not sure how they'll get him into the dungeons of Harrenhall.

[JSexton]

Originally Posted by bouv

As to Arya being a cupbearer, I'm thinking when Roose takes over Harrenhall after the Weasel Soup Incident, he'll just keep her as his cup bearer as well.

Though since Roose is with Robb right now, I'm not sure how they'll get him into the dungeons of Harrenhall.

I think that's going to get skipped over entirely. A lot of Arya's scenes are being summarized and condensed. In the books, she gets passed around from party to party a lot, and there just isn't time for it.

[JSexton]

Originally Posted by Lantern

So what did you think of Talisa the healer? I liked her character and scene and it will be interesting to see how she fits into the story. Is she a replacement for Jeyne Westerling? Or is she Jeyne in disguise? Her character is very different from Jeyne, who was rather bland and forgettable in the book.

Jeyne is only bland and forgettable because we barely see her. Mostly, she is with Robb who has no POV chapters. Much like Maergery, we don't have a chance to get to know her in the books.

[Snarky_Kong]

Oona Chaplin was cast as "Jeyne" with no last name. There's some speculation that she'll be Jeyne Lannister, but I guess we'll have to want to see.

The Westerling betrayal isn't really confirmed as far as timeline. I tend doubt it was from the beginning though since Jeyne (and her brother, the squire) seem to genuinely like/love Robb. Tywin would have had to get word to the Crag before Robb attacked it too. IIRC it was a sneak attack. Sounds unlikely.

[Lantern]

Originally Posted by JSexton

Jeyne is only bland and forgettable because we barely see her. Mostly, she is with Robb who has no POV chapters. Much like Maergery, we don't have a chance to get to know her in the books.

Yes this is true. The show does a great job of bringing the minor characters to life. That is the gift that a good actor brings, making his or her character instantly memorable in a single scene. Think of that wonderful scene with Old Nan in the first season. Or the Quarthian merchant in this episode. Even relatively important characters like Varys and Robb are better fleshed out in the show.

Still I don't think the Jeyne from the books would have nursed soldiers on a battlefield right after a battle or bandied words with Rob the way Talisa did. So if it is Jeyne I think they have definitely altered her character.

I am fine with that. I actually like the changes because it keeps the show fresh and most of the changes have been an improvement over the original. And after book 3, I hope the HBO writers have the freedom to make major plot changes and take the show in a different direction altogether. I don't think audiences will like episode after epiosode of Dany trying to sort out the intricacies of Mereeneese politics. The show will have to get Dany and the dragons back to Westeros much more quickly than the books.

[bouv]

Originally Posted by Lantern

I don't think audiences will like episode after epiosode of Dany trying to sort out the intricacies of Mereeneese politics. The show will have to get Dany and the dragons back to Westeros much more quickly than the books.

I'm already worried that all of the Bran's Magical Adventure shit that's supposed to start to happening this season will put people off the show.

I mean, seriously, it was 2.5 books of Bran, Meera, Jojen, and Hodor wandering around, barely finding food, and being cold. And the payoff? Bran gets to be some kind of tree-man who can see everywhere and everywhen...whoppide-do-da-shit.

[TruCelt]

I'm looking forward though, to the look on Jon's face when the raven suddenly uses his full name! LOL!

[JSexton]

Originally Posted by bouv

I'm already worried that all of the Bran's Magical Adventure shit that's supposed to start to happening this season will put people off the show.

I mean, seriously, it was 2.5 books of Bran, Meera, Jojen, and Hodor wandering around, barely finding food, and being cold. And the payoff? Bran gets to be some kind of tree-man who can see everywhere and everywhen...whoppide-do-da-shit.

Yeah, Bran's chapters are the worst. I skip them entirely whenever I re-read. I have no doubt Bran's scenes will be as shortened as Dany's have been.

[DigitalC]

Originally Posted by TruCelt

I'm looking forward though, to the look on Jon's face when the raven suddenly uses his full name! LOL!

The raven isn't on the show.

[drastic_quench]

Originally Posted by JSexton

Yeah, Bran's chapters are the worst. I skip them entirely whenever I re-read. I have no doubt Bran's scenes will be as shortened as Dany's have been.

Yeah, Martin was trying to pull a Tolkien with those chapters. No thanks. I won't miss the Reed kids prattling on and on. Osha and Hodor make for more interesting traveling companions in my view.

[TruCelt]

Wow. I think Bran is the most potentially interesting character! I'm really loving watching for his subtle influence - in the Godswood with Theon, etc. (Would Theon ever have remembered his name/helped Jayne escape without that simple whisper in the wood?)

This is shaping up to be a battle of the wizards, and he/Brynden are the most central and least self-motivated of the powers. I'm guessing that Brynden will have to give his life for the battle, and that's why it was so desperately important that Bran get to the cave in time to receive his training.

I also think that Jojen and Meera are incredible heros. We all have the tendency to prefer the heroes of battle and action to the soft day-to-day suffering and dedication of their hero type. But the two of them have basically given their lives - or at least the next few years as there's no way for them to get out of the cave until Winter is over, and it's shaping up to be a long one.

Bran is jealous of their ability to fully explore the cave. But in real terms he has the whole world at his fingertips, while they have only stone walls to look at for the foreseeable future.

I wonder if we'll ever learn the true origins of Hodor/Old Nan's family? Old Nan was clearly much older than the average human. What is their blood line? And what use could Melisandre make of it if she knew?

I'm also curious about Coldhands. Is it just that Brynden has learned how to steal a wight from the Others? Or is there more to it?