[Mafia game] The Realm of Phere

[MHaye]

Originally Posted by gnarlycharlie

i am troubled by the way MHaye seemed to make it seem that Toejam's vote for NAF was suspicious when it was fairly clear to me that it was NAF's kind of participation that Toejam was against.

ToeJam's case relies on misstating NAF's level of activity to make it worse than it is. He claims, falsely, that NAF has been playing like this for Days. This is not true.

He did this for one Day, and gave us advance warning it would happen.

[Normal Phase]

@ MHaye -- Can I be suspicious of both of you?

I'm looking at the posts that first pinged me about you, MHaye, and they still do, if slightly less distinctly so due to the overall explosion of suspicion I have about half the game's players. In this post: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...&postcount=321
I'm still not a fan of the "this is a sucky bandwagon so someone on it might be scum" approach that you took. I don't like the handwaving with which Septimus got a pass. I don't like the implied assumption that the voters are wrong. I don't like, looking at it now, that you bothered to cast a vote at all on what you characterize in your next post as possibly the weakest vote you've ever placed -- yet you don't imply any weakness in the vote post itself, and you spend several hundred words building it. It still looks like a big old basket of wrong to me. You're doing better against ToeJam today but even here I think you are pushing your case to the point of mis-characterization, as SP just pointed out. I think I might just like your suspect more than I really like your case -- makes it hard to judge. Anyway.

Your day one vote against Astral also still pings -- I still don't believe that Astral's lack of actually stating a suspicion against Gadarene is sufficient to justify the vote against him (your 10% reason); and the 90% reason seems to be made up of 70% self-justification. I'm not stating this well and I need to get the kiddo, so here's the post.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post14945491


As for ToeJam himself, I didn't much like his vote against Astral and have an overall impression of less engagement with the meat and bones of the game than his posting level would suggest. I'm not sure I can truly justify it in the time left, but am sympathetic to the vote or votes against him.

I don't intend to vote for Believerer. I might consider a vote for NAF. Not sure who else is reasonably in the line of fire right now. Not sure about SP; I get mixed vibes from him. I kind of wish Tanaer had picked up a vote or two today -- she pings, Weedy's comments notwithstanding, but I haven't been able to focus on her. I'll be back in about 40 minutes and hope to see one or two candidates I can deal with on the top.

[Normal Phase]

Is there anyone around to do a vote count? I could, but would almost certainly get it wrong since I have the kiddo climbing all over me.

[Normal Phase]

Dang you all. You do realize it's 50 minutes to deadline, right? Don't make me have to try to adjust the vote count to "phere-proof" by myself, please. I will get it wrong even if it's possible, there's no question.

[MHaye]

Day 3 vote count.

This should be up-to-date, but I'd like someone to check the accuracy of my work please.

Five votes

• ToeJam : Visorslash (1,937)², Weedy (2,048), Mhaye (2,053), Septimus (2,097)

Three votes

• MHaye : Normal Phase (2,050)², Gnarlycharlie (2,099)

Two votes.

• Believerer : Gadarene (1,783), Suburban Plankton (1,892)

One vote

• Silver Jan : Astral Rejection (1,873)
• BobArrgh : Scathach (1,878)
• NAF1138 : ToeJam (1,934)
• Gadarene : choie (1,966)
• GnarlyCharlie : LightFoot (1,987)
• Suburban Plankton : Believerer (2,065)

NB : I've counted the votes of Normal Phase and Visorslash twice because they are (as I understand things) the double-voters.

Also, I've listed the people tied on one vote in the order they received the currently standing vote.

[Normal Phase]

I have the same. I can vote for ToeJam if needed to put it out of reach of manipulation, but damned if it doesn't feel weird to contemplate it given where your vote and mine currently are, MHaye.

[BobArrgh]

You both missed my vote for NAF1138 in #2100.

[LightFoot]

MHaye
my quick tally matches your top 3 vote recipients

I have NAF with 2 Bob being the most recent. but I may have missed an unvote.

[Astral Rejection]

I'd prefer MHaye to ToeJam, but I also don't want it left up to the 3-voter.

Unvote
Vote MHaye

I'll switch to ToeJam if need be, but I hope we can push MHaye over if possible.

[Normal Phase]

That's right, NAF does have two.

[MHaye]

Bob and LigthFoot, you are both correct; thanks for the updates.

Revised Day 3 vote count.

This should be up-to-date, but I'd like someone to check the accuracy of my work please.

Five votes

• ToeJam : Visorslash (1,937)², Weedy (2,048), Mhaye (2,053), Septimus (2,097)

Three votes

• MHaye : Normal Phase (2,050)², Gnarlycharlie (2,099)

Two votes.

• Believerer : Gadarene (1,783), Suburban Plankton (1,892)
• NAF1138 : ToeJam (1,934), BobArrgh (2100)

One vote

• Silver Jan : Astral Rejection (1,873)
• BobArrgh : Scathach (1,878)
• Gadarene : choie (1,966)
• GnarlyCharlie : LightFoot (1,987)
• Suburban Plankton : Believerer (2,065)

NB : I've counted the votes of Normal Phase and Visorslash twice because they are (as I understand things) the double-voters.

Also, I've listed the people tied on one vote in the order they received the currently standing vote.

[Gadarene]

Not sure why we're lynching ToeJam.

[Suburban Plankton]

I concur with the vote counts.

ToeJam - 5
MHaye - 3
Believerer, NAF1138 - 2
5 people with 1

I'm not sold on the ToeJam case. Maybe he overstated his case on NAF, and maybe he didn't. Either way, I don't see it as so much a Scum tell as a matter of perhaps being a bit over-zealous.

I also don't like Normal's vote on MHaye. Her voting history so far:

Day 1
Mosier

Day 2
MHaye
PetW
MHaye
Astral
PetW
Astral

Day 3
PetW
MHaye

She seems to be stuck in a rut...

[Suburban Plankton]

NETA: I missed Astral's vote change...Preview Fail.

[Normal Phase]

It's 5-4 actually; Astral switched.

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

She seems to be stuck in a rut...

That really raises my eyebrows.

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

That really raises my eyebrows.

How so? Did you not realize you've been voting for the same three people over and over?

[Normal Phase]

Of course I realized. I'm not a fan of you just laying it out there without saying explicitly what you think that means.

[Normal Phase]

Or what it has to do with the actual reasoning for my votes on MHaye, which I've never seen you address.

[Astral Rejection]

Am I correct in thinking its definitely either ToeJam or MHaye at this point, regardless of the three voter? If so, I'm staying on MHaye. Either death will yield information, and my town lean on ToeJam has mostly evaporated today due to the conversation.

Either lynch has the Astral seal of approval.

[BobArrgh]

You guys gonna get this fight hashed out in the next 10 minutes? If so, I wanna go make popcorn.

[Normal Phase]

I believe so. Three votes could be added to Believerer, but that would only tie, and unless the votes were placed on him early (I'm currently assumign they work by PM time stamp or some such), ToeJam should still win by any tie-break. It's still a little chancy, though.

[Astral Rejection]

Is it too late for me to bully you into voting for one of the top two wagons?

[Suburban Plankton]

You seem to have found a small group of players you think are Scum, and are going back and forth between them, and seem not to be paying a lot of attention to anyone else.


As far as why I don't like your MHaye vote in particular:

When you first voted for MHaye on Day 2, your comment on him was "I want MHaye dead". Perhaps you laid out your suspicions in earlier posts that have now faded into the mist, but that doesn't seem like a rock solid case. And it seems that you keep coming back to MHaye because you are still suspicious of him from 'before'.

I don't think your vote is necessarily Scummy, just 'not good'. Now, if I've missed your reasoning, please let me know.

[Normal Phase]

And I'm simply gobsmacked by how many people do not have a vote at all right now. Above all Storyteller.

I should probably just move my vote on the off chance that MHaye is scum and ToeJam is not. Or other way around, rather. I won't post again before the deadline unless I do that, due to teh 60 second lockout.

[choie]

Oh damn all you for ninjaing me. Also, screw all y'all who just say "unvote" without telling us WHOM you're unvoting. I would like to nominate whoever does this to be the next person to tally the scores. Then see how much of a pain in the ass it is to find all your unvotes.

This is what I have:

Normal Phase 0 - [b]Astral Rejection[b] (1774, 1873)
Believer 2 - Gadarene (1783) Suburban Plankton (1892)
choie 0 - Visorslash (1786, 1937) Scathach (1801. 1878)
Silver Jan 0 - Astral Rejection (1873, 2109)
BobArrgh 1 = Scathach (1878) Believerer (1886, 2065) septimus (1895 1899)
NAF1138 1 - storyteller0910 (1912, 1912) ToeJam (1934)
ToeJam 5 - Visorslash (1937) Visorslash (1937) Weedy (2048) MHaye (2053) septimus (2097)
MHaye 5 = Weedy (1048, 2009) Normal Phase (2060) Normal Phase (2060) gnarlycharlie (2099), BobArrgh (2100) Astral Rejection (2109)
Mosier 1 - Tanaer (1956)
Gadarene 1 = choie (1966)
RealityTrip 0 - septimus (1980, 2097)
gnarlycharlie 1 - LightFoot (1987)
PetW 0 - Normal Phase (2040 2050)
Suburban Plankton 1 - Believerer
Abstain 0 - septimus (1899, 1980)


Pendant

Believerer - 1 - Believerer (1782)
Silver Jan 2 - Silver Jan (1814) Normal Phase (2081)
Septimus 1 - septimus (1820)
Visorslash 1 - Visorslash (1856)
Astral Rejection 4 - fubbleskag (1903) Weedy (2009) choie (2010) Astral Rejection (2052)
Zombie Mosier 0 - ToeJam (1934, 2076)
Mhaye 1 - MHaye (2037)
Gadarene 1 - ToeJam

NOTE weedy seems to have unvoted MHaye twice

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

I believe so. Three votes could be added to Believerer, but that would only tie, and unless the votes were placed on him early (I'm currently assumign they work by PM time stamp or some such), ToeJam should still win by any tie-break. It's still a little chancy, though.

On Day 2, the triple-votes were placed by Pizza during the Day on two different occasions (three if you also count the last Unvote), which suggests that they have not been placed yet Today.

Or that Pizza hasn't been looking at his PMs...

[Normal Phase]

A tie, are you kidding me? I can't even do anything about that. Who has the tie-break? I guess ToeJam.

Good lord.

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

And I'm simply gobsmacked by how many people do not have a vote at all right now. Above all Storyteller.

I should probably just move my vote on the off chance that MHaye is scum and ToeJam is not. Or other way around, rather. I won't post again before the deadline unless I do that, due to teh 60 second lockout.

I think that 'voting shenanigans for the sake of preventing voting shenanigans' is probably less than ideal strategy.

[Normal Phase]

No wait, I can, it's a four vote swing. Fuck me.

unvote Mhaye
vote: ToeJam

Should only be solidifying the vote as it stood even if choie's count is right.

[MHaye]

Choie's votecount is in error; BobArrgh voted for NAF1138 in 2100, but she ascribes it to me.

It's still 5-4.

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

I think that 'voting shenanigans for the sake of preventing voting shenanigans' is probably less than ideal strategy.

Well too bad.

[Suburban Plankton]

I make it 7-2 to lynch ToeJam. That should be safe from any manipulations.

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

You seem to have found a small group of players you think are Scum, and are going back and forth between them, and seem not to be paying a lot of attention to anyone else.

No one could possibly think this is an accurate characterization unless he is just not paying attention.

As far as why I don't like your MHaye vote in particular:

When you first voted for MHaye on Day 2, your comment on him was "I want MHaye dead". Perhaps you laid out your suspicions in earlier posts that have now faded into the mist, but that doesn't seem like a rock solid case.

Yeah, you missed that as well.

And it seems that you keep coming back to MHaye because you are still suspicious of him from 'before'.

I don't think your vote is necessarily Scummy, just 'not good'. Now, if I've missed your reasoning, please let me know.

You did. I also reject "suspicious of him from before" as being in any way discrediting of a vote, provided the suspicion was justified in the first place, which it was.

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

No one could possibly think this is an accurate characterization unless he is just not paying attention.

I suppose the burden of proof is on me here...but then again ,this isn't a court of law, so who besides those three have you actually raised suspicion of?

Yeah, you missed that as well.

I don't suppose you'd like to point it out? There's only 2100 posts to look through

You did. I also reject "suspicious of him from before" as being in any way discrediting of a vote, provided the suspicion was justified in the first place, which it was.

Well, yes. This point was rather predicated on the previous one.

[Suburban Plankton]

Anyone want to put together a pool on when we'll have the Day's final results?

I'll take 5:32 AM on Saturday.

[choie]

Sorry for the mess-up, MHaye. I was racing with the clock.

I won't be tracking votes anymore, because it's too much of a pain and it's never rewarding, but I hope someone else will do so in the traditional way we count them at the SDMB, which is to include unvotes as well.

Also, I can't stress this enough: WHEN UNVOTING, PLEASE INCLUDE THE NAME OF THE PERSON YOU'RE UNVOTING. Just saying "unvote" is so unhelpful -- not just to your fellow players, but especially to pizzaguy I'd imagine.

This was a bizarre Dusk indeed.

[Astral Rejection]

I'll take Sunday, 7:04 am.

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

I suppose the burden of proof is on me here...but then again ,this isn't a court of law, so who besides those three have you actually raised suspicion of?

Good lord.

To varying degrees and at various times:
Red skeezix
NAF
Gadarene
ToeJam
(you're not counting Mosier)
realitytrip
Guiri
IIRC choie

I may have missed some.

I don't suppose you'd like to point it out? There's only 2100 posts to look through

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...7#post14945107
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post14945951
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...8#post14947698
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...3#post14948113
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...4#post14958414
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...5#post14958715

I'm tired, that's all I'm doing. I may have missed a couple references to MHaye in this time frame, and there are a few afterwards and prior to my vote today, though much of the time was taken up arguing about Astral and/or futzing around due to exhaustion the first couple of days of this game day.

I'm not doing this kind of thing again, not to correct such incredibly false comments.

[Astral Rejection]

I'm as suspicious of Normal as most anyone, but I have to agree with her, it's an extremely inaccurate accusation.

[Normal Phase]

Yeah I did miss a post; there's a response to MHaye's vote on Astral floating around out in the ether of Night One somewhere.

[ToeJam]

on phone:
plz add normal and syburban to list of goodbye suspects plz.kthnx. suburban, plz reveal my inestigation result when i die you son of a bitch* *said with a smile. Asaassins are watchers btw, astrAL. i told u all i'm away this week and next. that said, true neutral rogue signing off here. Plz zombifie me and i'll provide any more thoughts. already given mythoughts privately to peep. good luck town, you fools. Dont kniw if day is over or if i can really say more. ah well. fucking fucks. Demon lord, :readies Axe . Puts on Shades.: Looks like its the time to kick ass and chew gum. Too bad i'm outta gum.... Bring it on
you ugly, Bastichi got you once, pizzaguy. Time for you to get your revenge!


ps Town dont get distracted by the flavor. Town is Town.
peace out. Ro0sh.

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Good lord.

To varying degrees and at various times:
Red skeezix
NAF
Gadarene
ToeJam
(you're not counting Mosier)
realitytrip
Guiri
IIRC choie

I may have missed some.



http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...7#post14945107
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post14945951
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...8#post14947698
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...3#post14948113
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...4#post14958414
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...5#post14958715

I'm tired, that's all I'm doing. I may have missed a couple references to MHaye in this time frame, and there are a few afterwards and prior to my vote today, though much of the time was taken up arguing about Astral and/or futzing around due to exhaustion the first couple of days of this game day.

I'm not doing this kind of thing again, not to correct such incredibly false comments.

Thanks...I needed some reading material.

[Normal Phase]

Investigation result, suburban?

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Investigation result, suburban?

I exchanged a number or PMs with ToeJam. He made a couple of statements regarding other players, but nothing that he indicated at the time was an Investigation Result.

I will explain fully later, but I'd rather wait until after the Day's results are official.

[Normal Phase]

At this point I think I'd like to see the PMs themselves, if necessary edited for sensitive information. If you've had substantive conversations with him, why did you say nothing about him all day? Or am I being the one with amnesia now?

[Normal Phase]

No, I checked -- besides the "to be fair" on one point of MHaye's, you didn't talk about ToeJam at all.

[Astral Rejection]

... so why didn't he claim prior to dying?

[Mosier]

Is the day officially over, or do I still have time to vote?

[Normal Phase]

It's over.