Inter-Species Breeding

[dolphinboy]

I visited Sea Life Marine Park in Honolulu today and saw the only living "Wolphin" in captivity.

I later learned that a Wolphin is a cross between a False Killer Whale and an Atlantic Bottle-nosed Dolphin. When I was in school, one of the things we were taught was that different species can't interbreed successfully, and if they do, their offspring is almost always infertile, such as a mule.

In this case these two marine mammals belong to the same family, but come from a different genus. The two species look quite different, have different number of teeth etc., yet they produced an offspring that has already produced it's own offspring.

I know that lions and tigers can successfully interbreed, but they are in the same genus.

So how is a wolphin even possible? Is this kind of pairing unique, or are there other inter-genus pairings that produce viable breeding offspring?

[Blake]

Originally Posted by dolphinboy

When I was in school, one of the things we were taught was that different species can't interbreed successfully, and if they do, their offspring is almost always infertile, such as a mule.

They lied to you. Many, many species are perfectly or nearly perfectly interfertile. Wolves and coyotes, yaks and cattle and so forth. The propensity for animals of different species to reproduce perfectly is a serious threat to the survival of many species.

Not only that, but mules are not universally sterile. A tiny number are capable of producing offspring.

So how is a wolphin even possible?

There's no reason for it not to be possible. The chromosomes are sufficiently closely aligned to allow successful reproduction and the gametes retain chemical compatibility. That's all that is required.

Is this kind of pairing unique, or are there other inter-genus pairings that produce viable breeding offspring?

Dozens, probably hundreds. There is a thriving industry based upon herds of cattle x bison hybrids. There are any number of gamebird varieties that are intergeneric hybrids, such as the various pheasants hybridised with pheasants or grouse in other genera. There is even a small industry based around flocks of chicken x pheasant hybrids. There is also a thriving industry selling intergeneric hybrids of domestic cats with various wild felids to produce breeds such as Savannas or Bengals. And those are just the intergeneric hybrids that people maintain because they can make money out of them. There are many, many others that appear to be fertile that just aren't maintained as hybrid populations.

[Shagnasty]

Blake is correct but he didn't tell you the basic answer. The concept of a species isn't nearly as clear-cut as they teach you in high school. In fact, it is a made up concept that nature loves to give the finger to anytime it can. However, with a little fudging and wiggle room, it can be made to be mostly true most of the time.

As stated, lots of different species can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. The qualifier that you missed is that it 'rarely happens in nature'. People can bring lions and tigers together in a pen and produce a liger. However, lions are from Africa and Tigers are from Asia so the qualifier works. Wolves and coyotes can interbreed just fine as well but they have different behavioral and mating patterns even though their ranges interlap so the qualifier also works - usually. The definition of a species isn't at the same level as the atomic weight of gold obviously and is often up to interpretation.

[notfrommensa]

Was anyone else hoping for a cross between Wolf and a Dolphin when they did the mouseover?

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

In fact, it is a made up concept that nature loves to give the finger to anytime it can.

I do not understand this technical gibberish.

However, lions are from Africa and Tigers are from Asia so the qualifier works.

Lions and tigers are both found in Asia. Until a hundred years or so back lions and tigers commonly encountered one another in the wild.

Wolves and coyotes can interbreed just fine as well but they have different behavioral and mating patterns even though their ranges interlap so the qualifier also works - usually.

That's a really bad example, since the Red Wolf is a Wolf x Coyote hybrid that has existed for tens of thousands of years.

While you are right that their are behavioral issues that minimise wolf x coyote hybridisation, it has still been ubiquitous ever since wolves arrived in the Americas. It is most commonly seen in the edge zones of both wolf and coyote ranges, where low population densities make individuals less picky about their mates. Wolf x Coyote hybrids are not uncommon in the natural world and haven't been since wolves arrived in the New World.

Interestingly the red wolves themselves seem to have become a fairly stable population, and are less inclined to mate with either coyotes or wolves than either of the parent species are to mate with one another.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by notfrommensa

Was anyone else hoping for a cross between Wolf and a Dolphin when they did the mouseover?

It's been done.

[Reply]

Hope this isn't too much of a hijack:

If (for example):
* Griffons and dragons can interbreed
* Dragons and drakes can interbreed
* But griffons and drakes CANNOT

Can a griffon-dragon hybrid then interbreed with a drake because of the dragon genes?

[Boyo Jim]

Animals in zoos, just like people in prisons. fuck things (or are fucked by them) that they would never give a second glance to out on the street.

[Chronos]

Hope this isn't too much of a hijack:

If (for example):
* Griffons and dragons can interbreed
* Dragons and drakes can interbreed
* But griffons and drakes CANNOT

Can a griffon-dragon hybrid then interbreed with a drake because of the dragon genes?

The simple answer is "maybe". And there are seldom hard-and-fast lines of "can interbreed", either: Usually, you'll have closely-related populations that breed together all the time, and then you'll have populations a little further apart that interbreed sometimes, but it's less often due to behavorial differences, or at reduced fertility, and then you'll have populations that are further apart yet that almost never interbreed, but it can happen occasionally, and so on.

You might also want to read up on "ring species", which are a real-world phenomenon that's similar to your fictional example.

[Reply]

Originally Posted by Chronos

You might also want to read up on "ring species", which are a real-world phenomenon that's similar to your fictional example.

This is awesome. Thank you.

[CalMeacham]

Originally Posted by Reply

Hope this isn't too much of a hijack:

If (for example):
* Griffons and dragons can interbreed
* Dragons and drakes can interbreed
* But griffons and drakes CANNOT

Can a griffon-dragon hybrid then interbreed with a drake because of the dragon genes?

From Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary:

HIPPOGRIFF, n. An animal (now extinct) which was half horse and half
griffin. The griffin was itself a compound creature, half lion and
half eagle. The hippogriff was actually, therefore, a one-quarter
eagle, which is two dollars and fifty cents in gold. The study of
zoology is full of surprises.

[Sigene]

when I saw your username

[John Mace]

Exact same thread from a few weeks ago: Link.

If you search, you can see we've done this at least a dozen times. Just FYI.

[TruCelt]

In my 100 gallon fish tank a Harlequin Rasbora somehow managed to breed with a Purple Danio . These two fish are as different as can be, and not even in the same genus. Nonetheless, Herman the franken fish is a thriving, active four-year-old fish who shows every sign of looking for a mate. (denied) S/he is at least four times the size of the parents combined, with a steel-grey front half and a coral-orange rear. Not shaped remotely like either parent.

I had added some Clown loaches to the tank, with the plan of allowing the Danio and Rasbora schools to die out as the loaches grew and took up the bio-load. These two were each the last of their schools (neither school had ever bred!)

Life finds a way.

[Lukeinva]

Originally Posted by Blake

It's been done.

That looks more like a wildebeest and a crocodile.

[Loach]

Originally Posted by TruCelt

I had added some Clown loaches to the tank

No need to make this personal.

[njtt]

Originally Posted by dolphinboy

So how is a wolphin even possible?

Look, if you don't know, how on Earth do you expect any of the rest of us to know?

[Carptracker]

In our book on the Asian carps, I argue that bighead carp (variously described as genus Hypophthalmichthys or genus Aristichthys) should be in the same genus as silver carp (Hypophthalmichthys) in part because they can produce fertile hybrid offspring. Taxonomy is not an exact science even with our current understanding of genomics.

[drewtwo99]

Does anybody remember Cecil's column on why a human can't reproduce with a house cat and he responded with, "For the same reason you can't park a car in a closet." Or something like that. It was just a one line response, and one of the funniest.

This thread reminds me of that

[Carptracker]

also, in a later published paper, we note that bighead and silver carps are closer genetically (using mtDNA) than most fish within the same genus in that family.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by drewtwo99

Does anybody remember Cecil's column on why a human can't reproduce with a house cat and he responded with, "For the same reason you can't park a car in a closet." Or something like that. It was just a one line response, and one of the funniest.

Yes; someone wrote in saying they thought that their roommate was having sex with his cats. "Cadillac in a closet" was the phrase used I believe. <googles>

Found it!

[BillJJ]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

Blake is correct but he didn't tell you the basic answer. The concept of a species isn't nearly as clear-cut as they teach you in high school.

Shagnasty is spot on here.

Some food for thought on the topic.

“It is really laughable to see what different ideas are prominent in various naturalists' minds, when they speak of 'species'; in some, resemblance is everything and descent of little weight—in some, resemblance seems to go for nothing, and Creation the reigning idea—in some, descent is the key,—in some, sterility an unfailing test, with others it is not worth a farthing. It all comes, I believe, from trying to define the undefinable.”
— Charles Darwin
Letter to J. D. Hooker (24 Dec 1856)

“Species comprise one or more populations whose members are capable of interbreeding with little or no fitness loss. They are reproductively isolated from all other populations, either because there is no interbreeding, since members of each do not recognize each other as potential partners, or interbreeding is rare and usually results in relatively unfit (or no) offspring being produced.” Grant & Grant 2009, page 111

Some competing concepts of species definition include biological species, phylogenetic species, morphospecies, DNA barcode species, and quasispecies.

[Pithy Moniker]

Originally Posted by notfrommensa

Was anyone else hoping for a cross between Wolf and a Dolphin when they did the mouseover?

Just imagine what the people making those gas station t-shirts could do with that creature!

[grude]

Originally Posted by notfrommensa

Was anyone else hoping for a cross between Wolf and a Dolphin when they did the mouseover?

I think I saw the wolphin's parents depicted in some furry porn a furry fan kept posting on one forum, imagine a anthropomorphic wolf (human male with wolf features) er copulating with a correctly depicted dolphin underwater.