On Jesus - why specifically was suffering and dying required?

[monavis]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

Bold mine.

Yes I do agree that my beliefs have changed a lot since I started posting here. From politically conservative w/ christian leanings to hard core Christian 'fundi' status, to abandonment of religion and a belief in a all loving God who desires to know us and for us to know God.

You said my way could never work for you, that's great, it's suppose to be that way (using my beliefs in this determination). You have your own way and everyone does, the trick is to find it.

As for facts, It was by questioning them that I started to lose faith in what man calls facts, and realizing that there is so much unknown that certain things called facts are actually unknowable and just things fit into the current known model.

Are you then saying Truth has no meaning for you. Facts are what is true, so then you don't care for the truth, just your own beliefs?If something isn't true or factual, it is a lie, or an untruth!It isn't what man thinks, but what is already a thing that can be proven, if not at the moment then later on, like the round earth theory.

[monavis]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

To learn that it is wrong. What you have to understand is more then the action they took, but the result of the action (The ability to judge between good.evil, right/wrong)

Just because one doesnt realize they have done wrong, doesnt exempt them from a punishment per se.

According to Genesis, God didn't want them to know good from evil, that was why they( and all humans) must suffer,because now they knew evil from good.

[monavis]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Ive seen variants of this statement in this thread. God did not make automatons. He created us in His image. This suggests on some levels, we are like Him.

When we were created, there was no sin. Satan, through his jealousy convinced Eve to take part in Knowledge of good and evil. Eve, a child of God, like any child), disobeyed her Father (God) and bit the apple (I think this is a metaphor). She then convinced Adam (Adam trusted Eve) and bit the apple too.

This gave Gods children the level of comprehension to determine between right and wrong.

What this says to us is that we have always had the choice to make the right and wrong decisions. As a parent, we attempt to teach our children the capability of making the right decision at a given moment. We cannot be there for everyone and they will make the wrong decisions. Sometimes, as a parent, that wrong decision has consequences of punishment. God is no different with His children. Wrong decisions have consequences.

We have always has "choice", "Free Will".

The choice boils down to one thing,"My way or the highway" Not really a choice!

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by monavis

You have hit my point exactly, the word "God" means existence. Not a being,but Being.

No, it doesn't, not in any dictionary I have ever perused. That is a major problem with talking to some religionists-the "Alice In Wonderland" approach of words meaning whatever they want them to mean.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

The hell it doesn't.

He's kind of right, under the principle of "ignorantia juris non excusat". Course when it comes to a felony, there'd be no mens rea either.

Fundamental issues of free will become more complicated when we consider how limited we are in our capacity to sin. For example, we cannot commit murder by shooting lasers out of our eyes, nor can we commit adultery by stopping time and raping an attractive person. Clearly God has limited our free will in some respects, why not in others?

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

He's kind of right, under the principle of "ignorantia juris non excusat". Course when it comes to a felony, there'd be no mens rea either.

It does not apply if the accused is not only ignorant of the law, but is totally incapable of understanding the law during the commission of the crime.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

totally incapable of understanding the law during the commission of the crime

Oh, true that. I do remember reading about a murderer that was due to undergo the death penalty but repeatedly failed some intelligence tests. In that state, there was a minimum IQ required in order to be executed, so his prisoners set about educating him. Perhaps a similar principle could apply here?

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by loftconversions

Christ sacrificed His life in order to washed the sins of people because no one found righteous. The proof that no one is righteous is found on romans 3:9-18. since Jesus was conceived by Mary from the Holy Spirit (mt. 1:20) therefore Jesus is the Son of God (mt.3:17) Thus, only Jesus is qualified. His blood is greater than any sacrificial animal

Again, isn't it your doctrine that Mary was born free of original sin, which presumably means she would have qualified as a sacrifice? And, at that, if God could arrange for her to be free of original sin, couldn't He easily do it two or twelve or twenty-two more times? (And that's not even counting Yom Kippur!)

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by Saint Cad

And then why do we have confession if Jesus has already served as the scapegoat?

The point of confession is that the person must acknowledge their sin and seek repentance. It is not enough that Jesus already died and paid the price, it is that the person must acknowledge that they failed to remain true, and thus wipe away the new sin that was collected. Just like you do the dishes, and then turn around and there are more dirty dishes, because someone else had another meal. You have to do the dishes again. The sinner has to be cleansed again through confession and absolution.

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Jesus' death was necessary because it drew attention to him and his alleged lifestyle & teachings. It made him a martyr. Had he been left to rot in a dungeon and forgotten along with his zany ideas, his message would be lost and salvation would remain out of reach.

Why's it got to be more complicated than that?

Because that does not explain with in the Christian context. The Christian context is the claim that "Jesus died for our sins" and that "Jesus paid the price through torture", etc. Those statements are not answered by "Jesus had to be martyred so people would hear about him".

I suppose the argument could be made that Jesus dying for our sins was Jesus electing to be martyred rather than running away and hiding. But that really isn't what the Christian experience is about. Certainly not the flavor I grew up with.

Originally Posted by Trinopus

The Bible is the story of God's accommodation to agriculture.

[snip]

God's hatred for mankind is symbolized by God's hatred of bread. He gets over it.

Snerk.

loftconversions, you have merely provided a restatement of one version of the Christian claim, not provided any explanations for that claim. That fails to answer the question.

Originally Posted by monavis

Are you then saying Truth has no meaning for you. Facts are what is true, so then you don't care for the truth, just your own beliefs?If something isn't true or factual, it is a lie, or an untruth!It isn't what man thinks, but what is already a thing that can be proven, if not at the moment then later on, like the round earth theory.

He has a valid point in that facts are what we think is true, and sometimes we find out we were in error, and what we thought were facts are then no longer considered facts.

[monavis]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

No, it doesn't, not in any dictionary I have ever perused. That is a major problem with talking to some religionists-the "Alice In Wonderland" approach of words meaning whatever they want them to mean.

Neither I nor the dictionary, can state in truth anything about God, one can belive what they wish, but that doesn't make it fact. Both myself and the dictionary can be wrong when it comes to God, and the meaning of the Word. God is an English word for the unknown,Other countries have a different way of spelling the word.It is a passed on thing from one human to another,no proof. I make no claim that I am right, I just use the brain I have and my life experiences, I just cannot understand how a Being can exist if it is not first in existence.As i understand it any being must first have a place to be.Place must preceed a being, just as humans need earth or something to exist on.

[monavis]

Originally Posted by Irishman

The point of confession is that the person must acknowledge their sin and seek repentance. It is not enough that Jesus already died and paid the price, it is that the person must acknowledge that they failed to remain true, and thus wipe away the new sin that was collected. Just like you do the dishes, and then turn around and there are more dirty dishes, because someone else had another meal. You have to do the dishes again. The sinner has to be cleansed again through confession and absolution.



Because that does not explain with in the Christian context. The Christian context is the claim that "Jesus died for our sins" and that "Jesus paid the price through torture", etc. Those statements are not answered by "Jesus had to be martyred so people would hear about him".

I suppose the argument could be made that Jesus dying for our sins was Jesus electing to be martyred rather than running away and hiding. But that really isn't what the Christian experience is about. Certainly not the flavor I grew up with.



Snerk.

loftconversions, you have merely provided a restatement of one version of the Christian claim, not provided any explanations for that claim. That fails to answer the question.



He has a valid point in that facts are what we think is true, and sometimes we find out we were in error, and what we thought were facts are then no longer considered facts.

Not so, just to think something is factual doesn't make it a fact. One can think it is a fact that the earth is flat, or the moon is made of blue cheese, but no matter how one takes it to be factual it can never be a fact. a fact can be unknown, but that doesn't make it less than a fact...a big difference!

[monavis]

Originally Posted by monavis

According to Genesis, God didn't want them to know good from evil, that was why they( and all humans) must suffer,because now they knew evil from good.

But a supreme being who knows all things ahead of time must have known that would happen, so he must have got a kick out of suffering! And to punish a whole family through all generations because one ancestor was bad, is not the act of a loving father) or parent), so that would eliminate that their god was loving, kind, caring, or worth adoration or love!

[cosmosdan]

Originally Posted by loftconversions

Christ sacrificed His life in order to washed the sins of people because no one found righteous. The proof that no one is righteous is found on romans 3:9-18. since Jesus was conceived by Mary from the Holy Spirit (mt. 1:20) therefore Jesus is the Son of God (mt.3:17) Thus, only Jesus is qualified. His blood is greater than any sacrificial animal (heb.9:14). Conclusion Jesus suffered and die on the cross in order people can have eternal life through faith in Christ.

But the Bible , a compilation written, copied, changed, selected and translated by Men, doesn't really prove anything. It's a source for thought not absolutes.

There was lots of different ideas about what Christ taught and what it really meant during those first few hundred years. Perhaps the winners just had power and influence rather than the truth.

Aren't we warned agasint latching onto the traditions of men.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by monavis

God is an English word for the unknown,

Well, that's certainly one possible interpretation, but it is far from the most common. Most versions of religion are trying really hard to spell out as much known about God as they can. Christianity itself starts with a specific God concept in mind.

Originally Posted by monavis

Not so, just to think something is factual doesn't make it a fact. One can think it is a fact that the earth is flat, or the moon is made of blue cheese, but no matter how one takes it to be factual it can never be a fact. a fact can be unknown, but that doesn't make it less than a fact...a big difference!

The point is that we call something a fact, and then later learn out it is false. We thought it was a fact, but it turned out not to be so. Our lack of understanding did not make the thing true, but we thought it was true at the time.

Certainly kanicbird is mangling the terminology, but there is a gem of truth in the complaint that was stated.

[florez]

Originally Posted by Irishman

The point of confession is that the person must acknowledge their sin and seek repentance. It is not enough that Jesus already died and paid the price, it is that the person must acknowledge that they failed to remain true, and thus wipe away the new sin that was collected. Just like you do the dishes, and then turn around and there are more dirty dishes, because someone else had another meal. You have to do the dishes again. The sinner has to be cleansed again through confession and absolution..

I seems like you are saying that basically the sinners are in the same boat they were in before Jesus died to pay the price for their sins.
So then did Jesus only temporarily wash away the sins by his great sacrifice, I mean since the sinner still has to be cleansed again and again, like a dirty dish?
A hugh sacrifice from Jesus, for a short term cleansing;
or ground work for the perfect priestly responsibility to take confession,
and absolve the sinner again and again in the name of God?

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by monavis

According to Genesis, God didn't want them to know good from evil, that was why they( and all humans) must suffer,because now they knew evil from good.

We must suffer the incorrect choice now that we know the difference

Originally Posted by monavis

The choice boils down to one thing,"My way or the highway" Not really a choice!

In my house, that is your choice. Why should Gods house be different?

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

According to you, they didn't know that what they were doing was wrong until after they did it.
Why were they punished for this?

Because they disobeyed God.

If my child disobeys me, she gets punished. Even if she doesnt know why the rule exists. I dont explain everything to my children on why I set a limit.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by monavis

According to the Gospel writers even Jesus didn't know the father's will, if he did he would not have said "If" it is your will, take this chalice from me".

Jesus knew why He was here. He did not know every decision of the Father.

So how a mere mortal is suposed to know the will of God is in question. And humans error, and don't we just have the words of humans as to what God wants?

I understand the direction of your statements, and the best I can do is The Bible, Faith and Teachings. Each person must decide for them self if this is enough.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Because they disobeyed God.

If my child disobeys me, she gets punished. Even if she doesnt know why the rule exists. I don't explain everything to my children on why I set a limit.

Are your children totally incapable of knowing the difference between good and bad?

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

Are your children totally incapable of knowing the difference between good and bad?

At what age?

[cosmosdan]

Originally Posted by Irishman

The point is that we call something a fact, and then later learn out it is false. We thought it was a fact, but it turned out not to be so. Our lack of understanding did not make the thing true, but we thought it was true at the time.

Certainly kanicbird is mangling the terminology, but there is a gem of truth in the complaint that was stated.

As I was going from Christian believer to spirtually leaning agnostic and my beliefs changed fairly significantly I began to form/understand what I see as a principle of what Jesus and other religious figures have taught.

IMHO, it boils down to love and truth, and the journey to conitinually discover the depth, bredth, and meaning of those.
Relating to your post of what we thought were facts and chnages in our perception.

If we place truth as one of out priorities, truth in being honest with others , truth in our self examination, truth in embracing facts and discarding false perceptions and traditions, we strive to move forward based on what we percieve to be true at the present moment.
So, when I was a Christian, I was being true to myself at that time. True to what I percieved as truth and fact at that time. When I started asking questions of doctrine and myself I gradually let go of certain beliefs. That was also being true to myslef and placing truth itself as a priority.

As people we are intellect and emotion and part of being true is learning to balance and evaluate those aspects of our humanity. We need to discern when we are hanging onto something that isn't true and why, and why we resist embracing and dealing with the truth that life inevitably sends our way.

When believers hold onto dogma and the teachings and traditions of men over facts they impede thier journey rather than improve it.

[monavis]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

We must suffer the incorrect choice now that we know the difference



In my house, that is your choice. Why should Gods house be different?

Because God is said to know all thing ahead of time, a human parent does not. I would not tell my children,you can go to the movies or not, I don't want you to go, but if you do I will kill you, isn't the actions of a good, loving, supreme being, but a cruel one who knows ahead of time his child choose to go. God has to be more caring than a parent that is not certain if something will harm it's child.

According to the Bible God knew ahead of time everything that would happen,but punished all his future children as well, even though he knew that the monster Satan that he created, would harm them, and they being innocent beings would act as they did! Even Jesus didn't know God's will, if quoted correctly he was quoted as praying,'IF' it be your will let this chalice pass from me". If is a very big word even though it has only 2 letters!If god in human form doesn't know his won will how is anyone else to know?

[monavis]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Jesus knew why He was here. He did not know every decision of the Father.




I understand the direction of your statements, and the best I can do is The Bible, Faith and Teachings. Each person must decide for them self if this is enough.

If Jesus was God( in the sense that many believe he was), then if he didn't know the father's will, how can he expect mere humans to know it.I see in John 10 THAT JESUS THOUGHT ALL HUMANS WERE GODS. not in the sense that we think of the word god today,but centuries ago when the word God meant anything with power. The Pharohs could declare them selves gods, the psalmist called the people gods.

[monavis]

Originally Posted by cosmosdan

As I was going from Christian believer to spirtually leaning agnostic and my beliefs changed fairly significantly I began to form/understand what I see as a principle of what Jesus and other religious figures have taught.

IMHO, it boils down to love and truth, and the journey to conitinually discover the depth, bredth, and meaning of those.
Relating to your post of what we thought were facts and chnages in our perception.

If we place truth as one of out priorities, truth in being honest with others , truth in our self examination, truth in embracing facts and discarding false perceptions and traditions, we strive to move forward based on what we percieve to be true at the present moment.
So, when I was a Christian, I was being true to myself at that time. True to what I percieved as truth and fact at that time. When I started asking questions of doctrine and myself I gradually let go of certain beliefs. That was also being true to myslef and placing truth itself as a priority.



As people we are intellect and emotion and part of being true is learning to balance and evaluate those aspects of our humanity. We need to discern when we are hanging onto something that isn't true and why, and why we resist embracing and dealing with the truth that life inevitably sends our way.

When believers hold onto dogma and the teachings and traditions of men over facts they impede thier journey rather than improve it.

i am with you, I want the truth,even if what I had believed was not truth I would gladly accept truth,over belief. Truth gives strength,and helps people more than belief. Some times we humans are afraid of truth,but it is still the best thing we have in my opinion. Could I be wrong...of course. I am still serching for the truth and I know I will never in my life time know all of truth,nor do I believe it is possible for any other human to know it either.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by monavis

If Jesus was God( in the sense that many believe he was), then if he didn't know the father's will, how can he expect mere humans to know it.

Faith.

I see in John 10 THAT JESUS THOUGHT ALL HUMANS WERE GODS. not in the sense that we think of the word god today,but centuries ago when the word God meant anything with power. The Pharohs could declare them selves gods, the psalmist called the people gods.

Jesus understood that there is a level of Faith that grants power. Things that people today would actually make fun of because of the little Faith we have.

Things like Laying on of Hands, Tongues, etc.


These abilities were performed via Faith in God. Things that others might consider Godlike abilities. The misunderstanding would be that the person was a God, and not that God was acting through that person via Faith.

Jesus was put here as a human. He performed his miracles through Faith in the Father. Jesus had to go through life as a human without sin, and be punished for everyone elses sin. Thus, a sinless Man has paid the price for everyone else.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by monavis

Because God is said to know all thing ahead of time, a human parent does not. I would not tell my children,you can go to the movies or not, I don't want you to go, but if you do I will kill you, isn't the actions of a good, loving, supreme being, but a cruel one who knows ahead of time his child choose to go. God has to be more caring than a parent that is not certain if something will harm it's child.

According to the Bible God knew ahead of time everything that would happen,but punished all his future children as well, even though he knew that the monster Satan that he created, would harm them, and they being innocent beings would act as they did! Even Jesus didn't know God's will, if quoted correctly he was quoted as praying,'IF' it be your will let this chalice pass from me". If is a very big word even though it has only 2 letters!If god in human form doesn't know his won will how is anyone else to know?

Just because God knows people will make the wrong choice, doesnt absolve them of punishment.

How many parents raise their kids to do drugs, drink, commit crimes. How many kids do? We all know some out there will do it, does that absolve them? Nope.

My daughter will make mistakes. Those mistakes have a consequence. I can teach, talk, etc, and she will still make the mistakes. Just like God has taught us, and just like we will make mistake.

The Bible says God knows there will be those with hardened hearts.

God knows not everyone is going to believe. He has provided the materials for teaching, yet, there will be those who brush Him off.

There is a consequence for that decision, just as if your dad said dont steal, and you get caught stealing.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Faith.

Faith and Knowledge have two very different definitions in every dictionary I have ever encountered.

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Things like Laying on of Hands, Tongues, etc.

Haven't seen a case of laying on of hands that didn't turn out to be fraud or failure. Cite, please?

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

Faith and Knowledge have two very different definitions in every dictionary I have ever encountered.Haven't seen a case of laying on of hands that didn't turn out to be fraud or failure. Cite, please?

LOL cite please

Read the bible. Oh wait, you dont consider the Bible a source of Citing. Gee I think I will just pick and choose what to accept based on my preconceived beliefs. Yeah, thats the ticket.

Listen, so youre not a person of faith. But that is the basis of One's belief in God, Faith.

LOL, cite please. Thanks for the giggle today

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

LOL cite please

You have a misunderstanding about how to properly reason.

That isn't an insult, think about this: If you assert that something is happening, you can't demand that someone prove it isn't.

For instance, if you assert that Santa brings gifts, you can't prove he brings no gifts to anyone anywhere, that would require total knowledge of the world and chain of custody of every gift given.

So in order to prove that Santa is bringing gifts, you should ask for evidence of Santanic gift-giving. If no evidence of it is found, it is acceptable to assume that there is none happening.

In that way, laying on of hands has never, in the history of the world, been shown to do anything that suggestion and random remission or healing of illness can do without laying on of hands. That is to say, we don't have video of someone with a huge gash that is healed in real time by laying on of hands. We don't have video of someone's leg regenerating after being amputated. And so on.

In the absence of this evidence, it is safe to assume it isn't happening. Since to require evidence that it isn't happening, you'd have to watch every human on Earth and see if any illnesses or injuries were cured by laying on of hands.

Read the bible. Oh wait, you dont consider the Bible a source of Citing.

I've read the bible. It is exactly what I would expect a primitive bunch of ignorant men to write during the bronze age. It has zero information they couldn't have had. For instance, God thinks the sky is a rock dome. He thinks there was a world wide flood. He (as Jesus) thinks that the end times are imminent. It's just a book, written by confused and frightened people trying to make sense of a world they couldn't understand.

Gee I think I will just pick and choose what to accept based on my preconceived beliefs. Yeah, thats the ticket.

A book that's written thousands of years ago isn't compelling evidence. Do you assume that the Bhagavad Gita is magical? Why not? It's a book that was written thousands of years ago, so Krishna, and thus Vishnu must be real, according to your standards, right?

Listen, so youre not a person of faith. But that is the basis of One's belief in God, Faith.

LOL, cite please. Thanks for the giggle today

So, to sum up, you can't ask for a cite that something didn't happen. If you want to provide evidence that it did happen, you need to providence that it did happen. This is a very basic step in effectively reasoning things out.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

LOL cite please

Read the bible. Oh wait, you dont consider the Bible a source of Citing. Gee I think I will just pick and choose what to accept based on my preconceived beliefs. Yeah, thats the ticket.

Listen, so youre not a person of faith. But that is the basis of One's belief in God, Faith.

LOL, cite please. Thanks for the giggle today

"LOL"
"giggle"

Are you this rude when discussing religion with Christians?

[monavis]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

Bold mine.

Yes I do agree that my beliefs have changed a lot since I started posting here. From politically conservative w/ christian leanings to hard core Christian 'fundi' status, to abandonment of religion and a belief in a all loving God who desires to know us and for us to know God.

You said my way could never work for you, that's great, it's suppose to be that way (using my beliefs in this determination). You have your own way and everyone does, the trick is to find it.

As for facts, It was by questioning them that I started to lose faith in what man calls facts, and realizing that there is so much unknown that certain things called facts are actually unknowable and just things fit into the current known model.

After thinking this over, I wonder why you accept that the Bible or your own thoughts doubt that Facts(truth) aren't facts or truth,because they are of man, when you ownrbeliefs, thoughts, and everything ever written,taught, said or thought was of a human being. The belief is from another human or one's own mind, any one can say God said or did something, but that is just a belief because it cannot be proven so one's faith is in a human not God.

[monavis]

Originally Posted by Irishman

Well, that's certainly one possible interpretation, but it is far from the most common. Most versions of religion are trying really hard to spell out as much known about God as they can. Christianity itself starts with a specific God concept in mind.




The point is that we call something a fact, and then later learn out it is false. We thought it was a fact, but it turned out not to be so. Our lack of understanding did not make the thing true, but we thought it was true at the time.

Certainly kanicbird is mangling the terminology, but there is a gem of truth in the complaint that was stated.

Inded we can think or believe something is fact,that is what religions do,but it isn't necessarily fact, or truth, truth exists even if we think other wise, many believed(some still do) that the world was flat, even Augustin in the City Of God, wrote it was impossible for the earth to be round. Belief is just that. Fact may be unknown but can later be proved,once proved Faith is no longer faith but fact.Fact erases belief.

[monavis]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

We must suffer the incorrect choice now that we know the difference



In my house, that is your choice. Why should Gods house be different?

Because God punishes with death if one doesn't do what he wills. Even Jesus didn't know God's will. He is quoted as saying,"IF" it is your will meaning he didn't know the will of God. If I told my child,"you can go to the movies if you so will it, but if you do go, and I don't want you to go I will kill you"It is hardly free will!

[monavis]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Faith.



Jesus understood that there is a level of Faith that grants power. Things that people today would actually make fun of because of the little Faith we have.

Things like Laying on of Hands, Tongues, etc.


These abilities were performed via Faith in God. Things that others might consider Godlike abilities. The misunderstanding would be that the person was a God, and not that God was acting through that person via Faith.

Jesus was put here as a human. He performed his miracles through Faith in the Father. Jesus had to go through life as a human without sin, and be punished for everyone elses sin. Thus, a sinless Man has paid the price for everyone else.

It is true that people believe Jesus were put here etc. but that isn't necessarily true, and much of it is contradictory. It is belief in another human who stated that it was of God, but we are just taking his word that it was, God does not necessarily have any thing to do with our beliefs. We do know that it was humans who decided what was of God, what God said, or did. There are people on this board that believe they get their directions directly from God, but that is belief, not proven fact!

[monavis]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Just because God knows people will make the wrong choice, doesnt absolve them of punishment.

How many parents raise their kids to do drugs, drink, commit crimes. How many kids do? We all know some out there will do it, does that absolve them? Nope.

My daughter will make mistakes. Those mistakes have a consequence. I can teach, talk, etc, and she will still make the mistakes. Just like God has taught us, and just like we will make mistake.

The Bible says God knows there will be those with hardened hearts.

God knows not everyone is going to believe. He has provided the materials for teaching, yet, there will be those who brush Him off.

There is a consequence for that decision, just as if your dad said dont steal, and you get caught stealing.

This thinking proves to me, that if it were true, God is a terrible monster who is out to see how much pleasure he can get from punishing his children, and loves to see them suffer. I expect a supreme being to be better than myself. I would not punish my child if i knew I could know ahead of time how to teach it so it could see the future, and know the harm the action would cause. Nor would I give it the ammunition to do harm, whan I knew it would harm my child or some others child.


If God didn't want sin he was well capable of creating beings that don't sin but seemed to want some to suffer,even tiny helpless children who never were yet capable of sin, and had them born with deceases that cause them much pain and some only live a very short time. Some are born with parts of a twin in their body's some conjoined,etc. and many other small babies were destroyed by God himself with the floods, wars (he was said to sanction) and raining brimstone on whole cities just to kill a few adults. Not my idea of a loving , caring all knowing ,all powerful God.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by florez

I seems like you are saying that basically the sinners are in the same boat they were in before Jesus died to pay the price for their sins.
So then did Jesus only temporarily wash away the sins by his great sacrifice, I mean since the sinner still has to be cleansed again and again, like a dirty dish?
A hugh sacrifice from Jesus, for a short term cleansing;
or ground work for the perfect priestly responsibility to take confession,
and absolve the sinner again and again in the name of God?

I grew up in a protestant tradition, so we didn't have confession. This is my understanding from a non-participant's view. But yes, sin is a separation from God, so every time the Catholic sins, he is once again separated from God. That is the point of Confession - to get granted absolution, i.e. the recleansing. That is the point of Last Rights, to get absolution before dying. Otherwise, you die in sin and thus separated from God.

It is a two step process. Step 1: Jesus die and suffer for the sins of everyone. This makes salvation possible. Step 2: each individual get absolution for sins, i.e. take credit for Jesus's sacrifice. This only works for prior sins, so must be repeated for later sins.

My protestant tradition was "once saved, always saved". We didn't do confession. It was argued that you needed to be true to God and sincere in your desire to be with God, which would lead you to do what God wanted for you. If you erred, you acknowledged your sin to God directly, but there was no seeking absolution, it was simply awareness of your error and attempt to rectify your behavior.

Different denominations have different rules. Saint Cad asked about confession, so I attempted to answer.

Originally Posted by monavis

I see in John 10 THAT JESUS THOUGHT ALL HUMANS WERE GODS. not in the sense that we think of the word god today,but centuries ago when the word God meant anything with power. The Pharohs could declare them selves gods, the psalmist called the people gods.

Do you have any evidence they used the word "god" differently, that they didn't really mean the same thing we do as a god?

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Jesus was put here as a human. He performed his miracles through Faith in the Father. Jesus had to go through life as a human without sin, and be punished for everyone elses sin. Thus, a sinless Man has paid the price for everyone else.

That is the claim we are addressing, but it does not answer the question, why.

Originally Posted by dngnb8

The Bible says God knows there will be those with hardened hearts.

The Bible even sometimes says that God hardens their hearts.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

So in order to prove that Santa is bringing gifts, you should ask for evidence of Santanic gift-giving. If no evidence of it is found, it is acceptable to assume that there is none happening.

Snerk. Hey look, it's Satan Clause!

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

"LOL"
"giggle"

Are you this rude when discussing religion with Christians?

Are you?

And yes. It is a failing of mine. I tend to make my points with a bit of bite, but not immediately. You see, I treat those like they treat others.

Of course your Czarcasm, so I didnt think my Sarchasm would be an issue. I guess that you dont live up to your screen name.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by Irishman

That is the claim we are addressing, but it does not answer the question, why.

I may not be the best to answer this but here goes.


Sins require punishment. Thus, since we all sin, we all would get punished. Since an innocent man paid the price for others (punished without sin), it gives a loophole.

Someone has to pay for the crime as it were. If Jesus hadnt, we all would.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by monavis

Because God punishes with death if one doesn't do what he wills. Even Jesus didn't know God's will. He is quoted as saying,"IF" it is your will meaning he didn't know the will of God. If I told my child,"you can go to the movies if you so will it, but if you do go, and I don't want you to go I will kill you"It is hardly free will!

First, God doesnt strike you dead wiht sin. We all would be dead. We do have a limited life span, and that life will be judged by God.

Jesus had to live life as a Human. If he lived it otherwise, he wouldnt have had to make the choices we have to make. Jesus knew what he had to do, live a life with sin, in a environment we have to live. Faced with the same temptations, same needs (food water etc), under the same rules etc. Doing so and being sinless and living as God teaches meant that all man can achieve this, via Faith. Jesus didnt "know" Gods will every moment, there is a distinction.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by monavis

This thinking proves to me, that if it were true, God is a terrible monster who is out to see how much pleasure he can get from punishing his children, and loves to see them suffer. I expect a supreme being to be better than myself. I would not punish my child if i knew I could know ahead of time how to teach it so it could see the future, and know the harm the action would cause. Nor would I give it the ammunition to do harm, whan I knew it would harm my child or some others child.

I know my child will make mistakes. I know she will be punished for them. I teach her to make the right choices, but there will be times when she doesnt.

I guess I am cruel and derive pleasure from this based on what you just said.

He did create those beings. They did something that gave them knowledge of sin. They disobeyed God. So what youre saying is, God should have created automotons. Thoughtless beings who did what was told without choice.

If God didn't want sin he was well capable of creating beings that don't sin but seemed to want some to suffer,even tiny helpless children who never were yet capable of sin, and had them born with deceases that cause them much pain and some only live a very short time. Some are born with parts of a twin in their body's some conjoined,etc. and many other small babies were destroyed by God himself with the floods, wars (he was said to sanction) and raining brimstone on whole cities just to kill a few adults. Not my idea of a loving , caring all knowing ,all powerful God.

God gives each person the opportunity to benefit from His Love. This is like saying, My Dad punsihes me so I dont think he is loving and caring

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

Sins require punishment. Thus, since we all sin, we all would get punished. Since an innocent man paid the price for others (punished without sin), it gives a loophole.

Someone has to pay for the crime as it were. If Jesus hadnt, we all would.

You don't seem to have read the thread, especially the OP. You are not adding any explanation, you are just restating the condition that requires an explanation.

Why does sin require punishment? Who requires there be punishment? Who defines the type of punishment? Who measures the punishment, to assure that it is fair and just and balanced?

If it is God that requires there be punishment, then why did he make us knowing we would fail? He set up the system, knowing we would fail and require to be punished, then proceeded to punish us. What a great guy!

Why does killing Jesus in our place make it fair? Isn't that like being mad at the kid for breaking the lamp, so kicking the dog? "As long as someone gets punished, we're all good."

Why couldn't God just say "Hey everyone, I know you sinned. I know you're going to sin. I forgive you. If you repent, I will forgive you. No one needs to be punished. Not even Jesus." What does Jesus's punishment gain us?

[monavis]

Originally Posted by Irishman

I grew up in a protestant tradition, so we didn't have confession. This is my understanding from a non-participant's view. But yes, sin is a separation from God, so every time the Catholic sins, he is once again separated from God. That is the point of Confession - to get granted absolution, i.e. the recleansing. That is the point of Last Rights, to get absolution before dying. Otherwise, you die in sin and thus separated from God.

It is a two step process. Step 1: Jesus die and suffer for the sins of everyone. This makes salvation possible. Step 2: each individual get absolution for sins, i.e. take credit for Jesus's sacrifice. This only works for prior sins, so must be repeated for later sins.

My protestant tradition was "once saved, always saved". We didn't do confession. It was argued that you needed to be true to God and sincere in your desire to be with God, which would lead you to do what God wanted for you. If you erred, you acknowledged your sin to God directly, but there was no seeking absolution, it was simply awareness of your error and attempt to rectify your behavior.

Different denominations have different rules. Saint Cad asked about confession, so I attempted to answer.



Do you have any evidence they used the word "god" differently, that they didn't really mean the same thing we do as a god?



That is the claim we are addressing, but it does not answer the question, why.



The Bible even sometimes says that God hardens their hearts.





Snerk. Hey look, it's Satan Clause!

In response to your question to me: Because the psalmist called the people gods,and sons of god, implies he was not thinking of a creator or an all knowing,loveing,powerful, careing being, but just a person worthy of respect! That is how I see it, since Jesus was also quoted(John 10) as reminding the Pharisees of his time, that their fathers also considered them selves god and sons of God.Different then what people think today.

[dngnb8]

Originally Posted by Irishman

You don't seem to have read the thread, especially the OP. You are not adding any explanation, you are just restating the condition that requires an explanation.

I believe I am . Youre not accepting my statements

Why does sin require punishment?

Because you disobey God

Who requires there be punishment?

God

Who defines the type of punishment? Who measures the punishment, to assure that it is fair and just and balanced?

God

If it is God that requires there be punishment, then why did he make us knowing we would fail? He set up the system, knowing we would fail and require to be punished, then proceeded to punish us. What a great guy!

He made us in His image. He made us with Free Will. Free Will means choice. When Satan convinced Eve to eat the apple (which I believe is a metaphor personally) Eve learned of the difference between right and wrong. God knew as our Father, we would make mistakes having that knowledge

Why does killing Jesus in our place make it fair? Isn't that like being mad at the kid for breaking the lamp, so kicking the dog? "As long as someone gets punished, we're all good."

Who said it was fair? I dont think I did. In fact, it isnt fair. How many times do we see the innocent pay the price for the guilty? How is that fair?

Why couldn't God just say "Hey everyone, I know you sinned. I know you're going to sin. I forgive you. If you repent, I will forgive you. No one needs to be punished. Not even Jesus." What does Jesus's punishment gain us?

Because disobeying God has a price. A price established by God. Whether we like that or not doesnt matter. Whether you determine it is fair or not, doesnt matter. It is Gods Word. He sets the rules.

[vivalostwages]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

I know my child will make mistakes. I know she will be punished for them. I teach her to make the right choices, but there will be times when she doesnt.

I guess I am cruel and derive pleasure from this based on what you just said.

He did create those beings. They did something that gave them knowledge of sin. They disobeyed God. So what youre saying is, God should have created automotons. Thoughtless beings who did what was told without choice.



God gives each person the opportunity to benefit from His Love. This is like saying, My Dad punsihes me so I dont think he is loving and caring

But your dad would not consign you to an eternity of torment.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by vivalostwages

But your dad would not consign you to an eternity of torment.

...for your very first mistake, made before you even knew the difference between right and wrong.

[Irishman]

dngnb8, your version of God is more of an evil tyrant than a loving God.

Originally Posted by dngnb8

He made us in His image. He made us with Free Will. Free Will means choice. When Satan convinced Eve to eat the apple (which I believe is a metaphor personally) Eve learned of the difference between right and wrong. God knew as our Father, we would make mistakes having that knowledge

Prior to knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve did not have the moral competance to know what misbehavior was. They were then persuaded by Satan to do something, because they did not understand the ramifications of their actions and did not know what disobediance was. So they learned the difference between right and wrong. Suddenly, they understood, and they were embarrassed and ashamed. Seems to me, that was sufficient punishment - knowing the difference between good and evil is a punishment. Requiring they be tortured and die and sent to hell after they die because they now know the difference is overkill. They now realize what they did was wrong, they are already contrite and already know their lesson. What does punishment do, but satisfy some lust for pain?

Who said it was fair? I dont think I did. In fact, it isnt fair. How many times do we see the innocent pay the price for the guilty? How is that fair?

Seeing as how God is supposed to be good and loving and just and fair and all that jazz, I would think that if it is just God's rules, then God should be fair and just and all that jazz. But you are free to define your God as a mean tyrant who kicks the dog when the mailman mangles the mail, because he doesn't care who is punished as long as someone is.

Because disobeying God has a price. A price established by God. Whether we like that or not doesnt matter. Whether you determine it is fair or not, doesnt matter. It is Gods Word. He sets the rules.

So if your God told you to kill, skin, and eat your child, would you do it?

[Lobohan]

The obvious answer to the question in the OP is: God is into BDSM.

[florez]

Originally Posted by dngnb8

I
Sins require punishment. Thus, since we all sin, we all would get punished. Since an innocent man paid the price for others (punished without sin), it gives a loophole
Someone has to pay for the crime as it were. If Jesus hadnt, we all would.

I am still not getting the loophole idea.
According to you, God requires a price and a punishment for breaking His rules.
The wages of sin is death, and all humans are born with original sin.
So everyone dies.
Jesus, by contrast was sinless, but he had to die for our sins.
Or, he never died and is still here with us, in our hearts, or whatever.
My question is this: Say Jesus never died for our sins, and we had to pay the price ourselves.
What would be different?

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by florez

I am still not getting the loophole idea.
According to you, God requires a price and a punishment for breaking His rules.
The wages of sin is death, and all humans are born with original sin.
So everyone dies.
Jesus, by contrast was sinless, but he had to die for our sins.
Or, he never died and is still here with us, in our hearts, or whatever.
My question is this: Say Jesus never died for our sins, and we had to pay the price ourselves.
What would be different?

No more Easter eggs?

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by florez

I am still not getting the loophole idea.
According to you, God requires a price and a punishment for breaking His rules.
The wages of sin is death, and all humans are born with original sin.

Except Mary?