Another "screaming kids in a restaurant" thread.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni

I was thinking back about those times, and I remembered that I was always told to call Grandma or my aunt in case of trouble. I believe that both my aunt and uncle and my grandparents lived within less than a mile of our house...and my parents had already notified them that they were going out for a bit.

I think it is simply an example of how times have changed, particularly in respect to safety issues involving children.

When I was a kid, people thought nothing (for example) of smoking in the car with the kids; in the country, kids rode in the back of pickup trucks all the time, and even when they didn't, specal seats for young kids were unusual and seatbelts for older kids practically unknown - if they sat in the back.

These days, standards are simply different. You absolutely would not get away with having kids riding in the back of pickup trucks. Leaving 10 year olds to watch younger siblings isn't of course as bad, but would definitely be frowned upon.

Similarly, standards in respect to tolerance for children in public have changed. Back then, kids were simply accepted as a part of life more.

[moejoe]

Originally Posted by Leaper

Forgive me for asking, but why didn't one of you take the baby outside while the other finished breakfast, then switched off, so you could both finish your meal and get the baby out of a situation where a server actually decided to kick you out, especially since you were both half done eating?

That is a really great idea, I wish I had thought of it then. All I can say is that when you're a new parent and your kid is crying and you're embarrassed and hungry and trying to move your whole house to another state it's hard to think in a rational, problem solving way.

I will also say that the total time from first cry to get out was about 3 minutes, and that during those three minutes I remained ever hopeful that the next thing I tried would calm her. When she told us to get out we didn't argue-I took the baby out immediately while my husband stayed to settle the bill.

That was 24 years ago (wow) and I actually ended up growing into a good parent, but almost no one is a good parent from the start, we figure it out as we go.

So although I totally agree that kids should not be running and screaming anywhere in public while their parent pretends not to notice, I also have some "been there" sympathy for the ones who are doing their best and still failing miserably. Along with the understanding that sometimes, from the outside, it's hard to tell the difference.

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by moejoe

That was 24 years ago (wow) and I actually ended up growing into a good parent, but almost no one is a good parent from the start, we figure it out as we go.

So although I totally agree that kids should not be running and screaming anywhere in public while their parent pretend not to notice, I also have some "been there" sympathy for the ones who are doing their best and still failing miserably.

I often imagine a history class in the distant future. One where the professor tells students that way back all humans had and raised kids without any classes or lessons or tests they had to pass and all the students gasp in disbelief

[flatlined]

Originally Posted by moejoe

...snipped... Along with the understanding that sometimes, from the outside, it's hard to tell the difference.

Honestly, its not hard to tell. Parents like you who are trying are very different than caregivers who just shrug and keep letting the riots happen. From what you have posted, I don't think that your kids would have been able to get the nod to drink vinegar.

They might have been crying and screaming, but you wouldn't have let them run riot and climb into an empty booth and mess things up. You seem to be the sort of person who would have kept them close because they were your responsibility.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by flatlined

Honestly, its not hard to tell. Parents like you who are trying are very different than caregivers who just shrug and keep letting the riots happen. From what you have posted, I don't think that your kids would have been able to get the nod to drink vinegar.

I agree. moejoe, you sound like you were one of those mammas who make me think, "Oh, the poor thing. I should tell her it gets better. No, that's patronizing, stop it. But she looks so overwhelmed! There goes the blanket, onto the floor. Should I pick it up for her? I don't want her to think I'm judging her negatively..."

That's entirely different from the self-absorbed, clueless parent that makes me think, "Oh, for the love of Darwin...natural selection works all too slowly."

[Missy2U]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

I agree. moejoe, you sound like you were one of those mammas who make me think, "Oh, the poor thing. I should tell her it gets better. No, that's patronizing, stop it. But she looks so overwhelmed! There goes the blanket, onto the floor. Should I pick it up for her? I don't want her to think I'm judging her negatively..."

Funny you should bring that up - I had this happen just this morning at the grocery store - and I didn't know what to say or do either because we're so afraid of offending, or that the other person will think we're being judgemental - I remember when I was a new mom (many many years ago) and can remember how overwhelming it could be especially when my son would start getting ballistic and how a comforting word would have helped me immensely. It makes me kind of sad that we can't do that. You know?

[Moonlitherial]

Originally Posted by Missy2U

Funny you should bring that up - I had this happen just this morning at the grocery store - and I didn't know what to say or do either because we're so afraid of offending, or that the other person will think we're being judgemental - I remember when I was a new mom (many many years ago) and can remember how overwhelming it could be especially when my son would start getting ballistic and how a comforting word would have helped me immensely. It makes me kind of sad that we can't do that. You know?

I tend to use humour in those circumstances. It breaks the ice a little and lets you know if the mother would welcome help or not. I've used "Can you believe they tell us we'll miss these years" and "That's why their so darn cute isn't it" or whatever seems to fit the situation. Some clearly don't want any interaction and I move on but several times it's broken the ice enough to make me feel more comfortable offering to carry something, stand in line while they pace with the child or, more on topic for the thread, come and get her from the sidewalk when her food arrives.

Oddly I've never seen a dad stressed in this way. They seem to get flustered at finding/doing things but more calm when the kid melts down.

[Dogzilla]

Originally Posted by Malthus

I think it is simply an example of how times have changed, particularly in respect to safety issues involving children.

When I was a kid, people thought nothing (for example) of smoking in the car with the kids; in the country, kids rode in the back of pickup trucks all the time, and even when they didn't, specal seats for young kids were unusual and seatbelts for older kids practically unknown - if they sat in the back.

These days, standards are simply different. You absolutely would not get away with having kids riding in the back of pickup trucks. Leaving 10 year olds to watch younger siblings isn't of course as bad, but would definitely be frowned upon.

Similarly, standards in respect to tolerance for children in public have changed. Back then, kids were simply accepted as a part of life more.

Kids were accepted as part of life more because parents did not tolerate this running through the restaurant getting maple syrup on Aanimika crap. My dad would never have put up with that. Kids were everywhere because if you didn't behave, dad might spank your ass in the parking lot. Just the threat of that kept most of us in line.

When I was little, the second the waitress would put the food down in front of us, my dad would snap, "Hurry up! We're leaving!" And our eyes would get huge and we'd gobble down our meals so we wouldn't get left behind. We believed he'd actually just leave us if he finished before we did.

Years later, he admitted he just didn't like us dawdling for two hours over a meal and he learned if he said that to us, he'd have plenty of time to eat, pay the bill, and get us out before we got bored and started looking for trouble.

While there have been many data points of responsible parents also not currently tolerating bullshit behavior in public, there are now too many parents who are worried about damaging their children's self-esteem, or who just don't know how to be the parent, so they do nothing when the kid goes a-roaming with his sticky maple fingers. If the parents are engaged, I cut kids a LOT of slack. It's the parents who aren't engaged who cause threads like this.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Dogzilla

Kids were accepted as part of life more because parents did not tolerate this running through the restaurant getting maple syrup on Aanimika crap. My dad would never have put up with that. Kids were everywhere because if you didn't behave, dad might spank your ass in the parking lot. Just the threat of that kept most of us in line.

When I was little, the second the waitress would put the food down in front of us, my dad would snap, "Hurry up! We're leaving!" And our eyes would get huge and we'd gobble down our meals so we wouldn't get left behind. We believed he'd actually just leave us if he finished before we did.

Years later, he admitted he just didn't like us dawdling for two hours over a meal and he learned if he said that to us, he'd have plenty of time to eat, pay the bill, and get us out before we got bored and started looking for trouble.

While there have been many data points of responsible parents also not currently tolerating bullshit behavior in public, there are now too many parents who are worried about damaging their children's self-esteem, or who just don't know how to be the parent, so they do nothing when the kid goes a-roaming with his sticky maple fingers. If the parents are engaged, I cut kids a LOT of slack. It's the parents who aren't engaged who cause threads like this.

Forgive me for asking, but is your anecdote an example of how you think parents generally behaved in the past, or an example of how you think parents *ought* to behave now? Because quite frankly, I don't think either is true.

I suspect many here are simply relating anecodotes of the "kids these days are spoiled - I walked five miles to school through the snow uphill both ways" variety. Combined with the "accuracy" of peoples' recollection of how they themselves behaved as children!

What has changed, and objectively so, is the prevelence of large numbers of middle-class adults who have chosen not to have children. In the past, children were more a "fact of life" because, by and large, most adults had them; it was more of a social expectation. With decreasing birth-rates, that has changed.

There were uncaring clueless parents then, and there still are now.

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Malthus

When I was a kid, people thought nothing (for example) of smoking in the car with the kids; in the country, kids rode in the back of pickup trucks all the time, and even when they didn't, specal seats for young kids were unusual and seatbelts for older kids practically unknown - if they sat in the back.

When I was a kid I used to sit in the back of the station wagon all the time and it never did me any harm. Well, apart from that one time when I was two and my dad had to brake suddenly and my face smacked into the metal edge of the back of the seat and I had to go to hospital to get stitches leaving me with a scar that I still have to this day*. But apart from that, I was fine. Kids today are so pampered.

On a more relevant note, my wife was smacked as a child and it has left her with a determination never to smack ours. If your kids are well-behaved in public because they're terrified of you, I'm not convinced that's evidence of great parenting.



*True story, although the scar is barely noticeable.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Originally Posted by Malthus

I suspect many here are simply relating anecodotes of the "kids these days are spoiled - I walked five miles to school through the snow uphill both ways" variety. Combined with the "accuracy" of peoples' recollection of how they themselves behaved as children!

I agree. I'm almost 40 - when my brother and I were kids my parents were approached by strangers and complemented on our behaviour. Now, we were nice kids that generally didn't act like little shits, but we weren't perfect by any stretch - this leads me to believe that there were lots of rotten, unsupervised kids roaming around at least 40 years ago. My mother - never a kid lover - agrees.

What has changed, and objectively so, is the prevelence of large numbers of middle-class adults who have chosen not to have children. In the past, children were more a "fact of life" because, by and large, most adults had them; it was more of a social expectation. With decreasing birth-rates, that has changed.
.

I also agree with this, as well as a strange sense of entitlement to never be bothered by anyone, ever, under any circumstances. The same people that bitch about loud children seem to bitch about people who are slow at bank machines, or people who struggle to find where they're going, or people who impede the progress of the Impatient Ones by even 30 seconds. Boo hoo - you took too long filing your cup with pop! Boo hoo - you have 17 items in the 12 items or less line! Boo hoo - you're walking too slow on the bike path!

Frankly, I'm more disturbed by those who think they're entitled to live in a quiet bubble, never interacting with anyone expect at their bidding, preferably if that person is bringing them something or serving them in some way.

Seriously, people need to control their kids and parent a little, but other people need to realize that they're not Special Snowflakes that deserve to have perfect experiences everywhere they go. You're an adult. Sometimes shit happens. Get over it.

[CanvasShoes]

Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni

Yes, you do have to socialize them. This involves letting them know when they aren't behaving properly, and that you are not willing to let them go running around tables, for instance, or go play with the condiments on the condiment table. .

Bolding mine.

I've told this story before, but once upon a time I was a waitress at a beer and burger place in a mall. This was a super popular Anchorage chain restaurant that otherwise provided good tips and a decent working experience (as much as working at a restaurant can that is).
But lunch times on Saturdays were sheer hell. This is when all the snippy soccer moms brought their monsters to the mall and O'Brady's was the place to eat. At one of my tables, one of these Saturdays, three moms and several kids crowded into one of my booths. They were bratty as usual, but one of the kids took the condiment packs and was in the process of tearing them open and pouring them on the table.

I said something to the effect of "oh here, let me get those out of your way" and I quickly scooped up the entire thing, wiped up the contents of the first victim sugar packages, and scooped the whole thing onto my tray. One of the moms said (with much indignation and a huge sense of entitlement) "he was PLaAAying with that"!

I too shocked to answer anything more than "I'm sorry they're not toys" or something like that (wish I'd been quicker on the draw). But yeah, this mentality that children are some sort of magical creatures that should never EVER have their precious little individual spirits crushed with any sort of discipline, ..and that anyone within earshot should just deal with it because (air of shock that everyone isn't mesmerized by their little angel), "they're kids!, that's the way kids are" grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...drives me NUTS.

[bump]

Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni

It's NOT a good idea to bring a new baby to a public place. Even if the baby is breastfed, its immune system isn't up and running at full speed. New babies need to sleep a lot, and they don't need to be overstimulated late in the evening. Plus, of course, it's not OK to annoy other people. The baby isn't being deliberately annoying, but the parents need to learn how and when to engage a babysitter.

Well, there's a point at which the doctors say that it's ok to take babies out and about, and IIRC, it's sometime around 1.5-2 months old. It's not such a terrible idea to take your kid out places early in the evenings so that they get used to being out; most of the time the kids who pitch absolute crying fits are the ones who have been yanked from their comfort zone and put into a high chair in a loud restaurant and are ignored, instead of the kids who've learned how to behave and not be afraid in restaurants from an early age.

We started taking our son out to dinner or out to shop with us once a week from when he was whatever that initial age they recommend was, and he's now 8 months old, and doesn't even blink or care when we take him out to eat somewhere, or put him in the shopping cart and wheel him around the store, etc...

That being said, on the few occasions where he has had a meltdown, we've always grabbed him and taken him outside of the restaurant or store to soothe him and calm him down. We've never just let him scream. About the only thing we're guilty of is when he's having a good time, sometimes he laughs and shrieks with glee, and can get a little loud, and we haven't been as diligent about taking care of that as with the crying and upset spells.

Oh, CanvasShoes I was a busboy at a Chili's in 1989, and I got my ass chewed by a parent because their kid was flinging the coasters we had on each table all around that part of the restaurant. I went up and said "You stop that, and you pick them all up and put them right here." Apparently I overstepped my boundaries or something; I had no intention of picking all those coasters up because that bitch wouldn't keep her kid in line, and that's what I told the manager... at which point I got my ass chewed for alienating a customer.

[CanvasShoes]

Originally Posted by even sven

Haha. I'm the judgmental, condescending "nanny" here. Not the people who think that all parents can and should have a perfect track record of never having a cranky kid in public, and offer helpful let-them-eat-cake style advice ("just hire a baby sitter every single time you need to get shit done!" for every situation where a parent might end up in a less-than-ideal spot.

And it's the kids who are the entitled "special snowflakes." Not the people who think wide swathes of America should voluntarily ban themselves from public establishments, even establishments that welcome them in and gladly accept their money, so that they can go out where and when they want without the danger of sharing a public space with someone not in their preferred demographics.

No one is saying what you suggest here. In fact, most posters have made it very clear that it's not so much that the kids are misbehaving, or even how they're misbehaving, but that there is a certain faction of clueless parents who sit and do nothing.

I'm 53 and a grandmother (so it's almost time for me to be taken out behind the barn and put out of my misery..for sure, but I have a good few years of tax paying left in me, so don't disappoint a slacker or two just yet okay? ), so not only do I remember 50 years ago and being a child (and being properly parented), but I've raised two of my own, so I've definitely had those toddler meltdown experiences in public (not me, my kids, though after they melted down, I've come darn close to doing the same!). There is a huge difference in choosing to discipline or remove a badly behaving child from a public venue and just cluelessly allowing your child to keep on being a brat and annoying everyone in earshot. You're acting as if people expecting the former is the most unreasonable, unattainable act possible.

Even though people didn't go to restaurants as often back then, and not often with little kids, there were many other places in life where one did take children, and we were expected to behave properly. That, or we were removed and/or disciplined. Another difference between today and back then is that, if for some strange reason one of us did go a little bonkers in public and say run screaming around the aisles of a grocery store, just about any other mom in the place would stop us with either the infamous stinkeye or, if necessary, a "young lady! where IS your mother"? Which would stop us in our tracks and properly chasten us and stop our nonsense.

There are some good parents out there, who do do their level best to parent properly. However, there is also a huge percentage of parents who are very lazy and selfish. And that IS the behaviour and mentality that results in kids brattily running throughout a restaurant shrieking and getting into other peoples' plates. It's not that parenting is something that's impossible to attain, it's that those parents don't want to mess up their own fun, so they refuse to do what's needed to be a responsible parent and a decent member of society.

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by CanvasShoes

<snip>
Even though people didn't go to restaurants as often back then, and not often with little kids, there were many other places in life where one did take children, and we were expected to behave properly. That, or we were removed and/or disciplined. Another difference between today and back then is that, if for some strange reason one of us did go a little bonkers in public and say run screaming around the aisles of a grocery store, just about any other mom in the place would stop us with either the infamous stinkeye or, if necessary, a "young lady! where IS your mother"? Which would stop us in our tracks and properly chasten us and stop our nonsense.

Yup. I don't recall being trained how to act in public - the training started at such an early age, and it was non-negotiable. By the time we became aware of the world around us, we already knew what was expected of us in public. And yes, every adult was allowed (and expected) to discipline us - I mean, they were adults!

There are some good parents out there, who do do their level best to parent properly. However, there is also a huge percentage of parents who are very lazy and selfish. And that IS the behaviour and mentality that results in kids brattily running throughout a restaurant shrieking and getting into other peoples' plates. It's not that parenting is something that's impossible to attain, it's that those parents don't want to mess up their own fun, so they refuse to do what's needed to be a responsible parent and a decent member of society.

I think there's also a misperception in some people that there isn't anything you can do - kids do what they want, parents put up with it, and that's just the way it is.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by CanvasShoes

No one is saying what you suggest here. In fact, most posters have made it very clear that it's not so much that the kids are misbehaving, or even how they're misbehaving, but that there is a certain faction of clueless parents who sit and do nothing.

I'm 53 and a grandmother (so it's almost time for me to be taken out behind the barn and put out of my misery..for sure, but I have a good few years of tax paying left in me, so don't disappoint a slacker or two just yet okay? ), so not only do I remember 50 years ago and being a child (and being properly parented), but I've raised two of my own, so I've definitely had those toddler meltdown experiences in public (not me, my kids, though after they melted down, I've come darn close to doing the same!). There is a huge difference in choosing to discipline or remove a badly behaving child from a public venue and just cluelessly allowing your child to keep on being a brat and annoying everyone in earshot. You're acting as if people expecting the former is the most unreasonable, unattainable act possible.

Even though people didn't go to restaurants as often back then, and not often with little kids, there were many other places in life where one did take children, and we were expected to behave properly. That, or we were removed and/or disciplined. Another difference between today and back then is that, if for some strange reason one of us did go a little bonkers in public and say run screaming around the aisles of a grocery store, just about any other mom in the place would stop us with either the infamous stinkeye or, if necessary, a "young lady! where IS your mother"? Which would stop us in our tracks and properly chasten us and stop our nonsense.

There are some good parents out there, who do do their level best to parent properly. However, there is also a huge percentage of parents who are very lazy and selfish. And that IS the behaviour and mentality that results in kids brattily running throughout a restaurant shrieking and getting into other peoples' plates. It's not that parenting is something that's impossible to attain, it's that those parents don't want to mess up their own fun, so they refuse to do what's needed to be a responsible parent and a decent member of society.

Oh the kids these days. They do not respect their elders. They run wild. Not like when I was growing up. Then we had real discipline.

This complaint is, literally, as old as literate civilization.

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless
beyond words.

When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of
elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of
restraint.
--- Hesiod, Eighth Century B.C.

Every single generation appears to believe that when *they* were kids, things were different - and better. Parents were more responsible. They cared about discipline. Not like todays' clueless, lazy, irresponsible parents, and wild, undisciplined hellion children.

[Moonlitherial]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Every single generation appears to believe that when *they* were kids, things were different - and better. Parents were more responsible. They cared about discipline. Not like todays' clueless, lazy, irresponsible parents, and wild, undisciplined hellion children.

What if it's true! Can you imagine society in a couple more generations?

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Every single generation appears to believe that when *they* were kids, things were different - and better. Parents were more responsible. They cared about discipline. Not like todays' clueless, lazy, irresponsible parents, and wild, undisciplined hellion children.

Yeah, even in the 8th century B.C. families would go out to the Olive Garden for a bite, then linger over their wine and play games on their stone tablets, while the kids ran wild.

At least in those days, there was the threat of the Roman Legion confiscating your untamed brats and selling them on the slave market.

[Pixel_Dent]

We try very hard to make sure our kids are, for all intents, invisible in restaurants. When they were at an age to cry they would be rushed out to the parking lot and like a previous poster I'd use the strap them in to the car seat until they agreed that it was time behaving inside technique. This can be stressful but that's what you sign up for when you decide to be a parent.

However, I did find one interesting corollary to this. One of the most calming, relaxing things I can hear which will immediately put me into a state of bliss and lower my blood pressure 20 points is Someone Else's Kid crying in a restaurant. When I first hear it I'm ready to spring into action to correct my child, but then when I realize it's not my kid and I don't have to do anything about it I enter into a happy fugue state. Ahhhhhhhh...

[perfectparanoia]

I think the biggest difference between now and when I was younger was the sense of community.

Not only did that mean that we talked to our neighbours or that it was okay to ask strangers (other people's parents, store clerks, etc) for help but it meant that if there was a child who was acting up or getting into a dangerous situation, any adult could intervene.

I was doing some bad thing (I think it was spraying other kids with the hose) in my front yard. Of course, my parents weren't on the scene. So, the neighbour man told me to knock it off. So I did. My mom overheard this and not only did I get in more trouble, she was embarrassed and apologized to the neighbour man for my behaviour.

Since I am a nosy bitch, I will correct children in the grocery or a restaurant. The typical reaction is:

1. why are you talking to my kid stranger!
2. it's none of your business what my kid does.

Which is, frankly, not true. Parents do not have eyes in the backs of our heads and even the most dilligent parent will miss things. Kids are smart. They will wait until your back is turned or you have a millisecond of less than attentiveness to act up. We need help. We need community.

And we need to be embarrassed when we, as parents, screw up. We need to correct not just the children's behaviour but our own. Sometimes it feels like the parents are really the 'special snowflakes' who can't handle anyone criticizing them.

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Oh the kids these days. They do not respect their elders. They run wild. Not like when I was growing up. Then we had real discipline.

This complaint is, literally, as old as literate civilization.



Every single generation appears to believe that when *they* were kids, things were different - and better. Parents were more responsible. They cared about discipline. Not like todays' clueless, lazy, irresponsible parents, and wild, undisciplined hellion children.

It took much longer than usual for someone to trot out that hoary old chestnut.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Every single generation appears to believe that when *they* were kids, things were different - and better. Parents were more responsible. They cared about discipline. Not like todays' clueless, lazy, irresponsible parents, and wild, undisciplined hellion children.

Perhaps it's not the children who are different now, but the adults. That is, there are more parents who ignore their kids' acting out and more adults willing to make excuses for both the parents and kids.

As a good example of parenting I look to my own brother's family. I have a four-year-old nephew who's as spirited and rambunctious as any kid his age. In public places he sometimes gets bored, moody, etc., like any kid would. They don't take him to "fancy" restaurants while he's in this phase, and if we go to a more kid-friendly pizza or wing place and he begins whining or kicking the booth they'll address it immediately and tell him to behave. If he keeps it up, they take him outside for a one-on-one "you need to cut it out, now" talk. That usually does it; if he still persists, it's time to pay the check and go home. Sucks to do so, I'm sure, but that's part of the price of parenthood.

They aren't authoritarian or mean about it, nor are they asking too much of a child his age. They're doing what they're supposed to do as parents socializing a child, and they do it with love, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate seeing it while other parents' brats are left to run amok with impunity. At home, in the backyard, etc., he can play and scream to his heart's content, but he's being taught (whether he likes it or not) that when you're in a public place like a restaurant, you're supposed to behave. It's frightening to think how many kids aren't being taught that simple lesson, and what we may all be in for in a few years.

[Frylock]

Originally Posted by Missy2U

Funny you should bring that up - I had this happen just this morning at the grocery store - and I didn't know what to say or do either because we're so afraid of offending, or that the other person will think we're being judgemental - I remember when I was a new mom (many many years ago) and can remember how overwhelming it could be especially when my son would start getting ballistic and how a comforting word would have helped me immensely. It makes me kind of sad that we can't do that. You know?

I don't get it. Just don't look mean while you help.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by perfectparanoia

I think the biggest difference between now and when I was younger was the sense of community.

...

Since I am a nosy bitch, I will correct children in the grocery or a restaurant. The typical reaction is:

1. why are you talking to my kid stranger!
2. it's none of your business what my kid does.

That's a big difference I find from place to place, the % of "screechy parents" to "parents who know and appreciate when a stranger tries to help". The screechy ones get worse results than the second group.


Frylock, I must be one of the most un-mean-looking people above the age of 3mo on this Earth. People ask me for help all the time; I've had little kids I didn't know grab my hand to cross the street (the other hand was holding their Mom's). And yet, there's been times when a kid tossed a toy on the floor, I picked it up and didn't have time to hand it to their mother before she started yelling at me and grabbing for the toy - ok, ok, lady, I promise I wasn't going to lick it!

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer

It took much longer than usual for someone to trot out that hoary old chestnut.

It's a hoary old chestnut trotted out to demonstrate just how hoary and old the chestnuts being trotted out here are.

In its way, its sorta meta.

[Frylock]

Originally Posted by Nava

That's a big difference I find from place to place, the % of "screechy parents" to "parents who know and appreciate when a stranger tries to help". The screechy ones get worse results than the second group.


Frylock, I must be one of the most un-mean-looking people above the age of 3mo on this Earth. People ask me for help all the time; I've had little kids I didn't know grab my hand to cross the street (the other hand was holding their Mom's). And yet, there's been times when a kid tossed a toy on the floor, I picked it up and didn't have time to hand it to their mother before she started yelling at me and grabbing for the toy - ok, ok, lady, I promise I wasn't going to lick it!

Well you know, this may be coming out of left field, but it occurs to me that maybe there turns out to be a gender gap here--it may be that I find I can do things like that without people reacting poorly because I'm a guy. If I were female, maybe other females would feel more secure it letting me know how they really feel, but maybe since I'm a male, because of various more or less unconscious processes that go through people's minds, they feel less legitimate in yelling at me for doing something like that. I don't know. Just speculating, probably with far too little basis.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Perhaps it's not the children who are different now, but the adults. That is, there are more parents who ignore their kids' acting out and more adults willing to make excuses for both the parents and kids.

As a good example of parenting I look to my own brother's family. I have a four-year-old nephew who's as spirited and rambunctious as any kid his age. In public places he sometimes gets bored, moody, etc., like any kid would. They don't take him to "fancy" restaurants while he's in this phase, and if we go to a more kid-friendly pizza or wing place and he begins whining or kicking the booth they'll address it immediately and tell him to behave. If he keeps it up, they take him outside for a one-on-one "you need to cut it out, now" talk. That usually does it; if he still persists, it's time to pay the check and go home. Sucks to do so, I'm sure, but that's part of the price of parenthood.

They aren't authoritarian or mean about it, nor are they asking too much of a child his age. They're doing what they're supposed to do as parents socializing a child, and they do it with love, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate seeing it while other parents' brats are left to run amok with impunity. At home, in the backyard, etc., he can play and scream to his heart's content, but he's being taught (whether he likes it or not) that when you're in a public place like a restaurant, you're supposed to behave. It's frightening to think how many kids aren't being taught that simple lesson, and what we may all be in for in a few years.

What we have in this thread is really a whole lot of confirmation bias and selective memory, aided and abeted by the fact that bad behaviour is simply more memorable and noticable than good. Of course people don't notice the "good" parenting going on as much as the "bad" - by definition, it doesn't come to their notice as much, unless they or those close to them are doing it.

Hence the perception that while *I* (or my brother's family) are good parents, because I see it every day or frequently, the rest of the world is going to hell in an handbasket - why, I can very clearly remember that time in 1989 (see one of the posts above) when a bad parent got stroppy with them when they were waitstaffing ... parents these days!

This is the mechanism that explains why, without fail, each generation believes that kids and parents were worse that the one before.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Malthus

What we have in this thread is really a whole lot of confirmation bias and selective memory, aided and abeted by the fact that bad behaviour is simply more memorable and noticable than good. Of course people don't notice the "good" parenting going on as much as the "bad" - by definition, it doesn't come to their notice as much, unless they or those close to them are doing it.

Hence the perception that while *I* (or my brother's family) are good parents, because I see it every day or frequently, the rest of the world is going to hell in an handbasket - why, I can very clearly remember that time in 1989 (see one of the posts above) when a bad parent got stroppy with them when they were waitstaffing ... parents these days!

This is the mechanism that explains why, without fail, each generation believes that kids and parents were worse that the one before.

Yes. Well, I'm telling you what I have personally witnessed, and you are of course free to wave it away as selective delusion or intentional bias if you feel that better supports your own pet theory.

[perfectparanoia]

What we need here is someone who has been around to see two generations of children as an adult. I am thinking over 70 should do it. And it would be ideal if they were childless.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by Nava

That's a big difference I find from place to place, the % of "screechy parents" to "parents who know and appreciate when a stranger tries to help". The screechy ones get worse results than the second group.


Frylock, I must be one of the most un-mean-looking people above the age of 3mo on this Earth. People ask me for help all the time; I've had little kids I didn't know grab my hand to cross the street (the other hand was holding their Mom's). And yet, there's been times when a kid tossed a toy on the floor, I picked it up and didn't have time to hand it to their mother before she started yelling at me and grabbing for the toy - ok, ok, lady, I promise I wasn't going to lick it!

Right. And it doesn't take many yellers before you're (or rather, I'm) hesitant to offer help.

Originally Posted by Frylock

Well you know, this may be coming out of left field, but it occurs to me that maybe there turns out to be a gender gap here--it may be that I find I can do things like that without people reacting poorly because I'm a guy. If I were female, maybe other females would feel more secure it letting me know how they really feel, but maybe since I'm a male, because of various more or less unconscious processes that go through people's minds, they feel less legitimate in yelling at me for doing something like that. I don't know. Just speculating, probably with far too little basis.

I think it's exactly the opposite. I think women are less secure around other women, and feel defensive. If they look like they need help, then they look like they're failing. If a guy offers to help, that's kind of okay, because we're conditioned to need help from guys. There are jokes about pickle jars and tall shelves, but we'll accept a guy's help with changing a tire and lifting and carrying heavy things, and that doesn't feel threatening. A guy who picks up a dropped blanket is gallant, and sweet, and gets the ovaries quivvering just a little.

But if another woman - particularly a stranger - steps in to help, it can feel like she thinks you suck and you're a failure as a woman and mother and all around human being. Which are thoughts that are secretly in the heads of most mothers of small children, anyhow. Feeling like your "failure" is being noted and made public by a strange woman is terribly threatening. It's perfectly natural for that feeling to make one defensive, and snap, "I've GOT IT! It's FINE!" in order to reclaim control of the situation and prove to her (by which I mean yourself) that you are capable.

So I understand and have great empathy and sympathy for where it's often coming from. But knowing that makes me MORE hesitant to offer help, because I don't want to cause a temporarily overwhelmed mom to feel all that. If I thought they were snapping because they were mean people, I wouldn't care so much and I'd risk annoying mean people to help nice people.

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by Nava

And yet, there's been times when a kid tossed a toy on the floor, I picked it up and didn't have time to hand it to their mother before she started yelling at me and grabbing for the toy - ok, ok, lady, I promise I wasn't going to lick it!

And thats when you make a hail mary pass towards the end zone with the toy

[jsgoddess]

I think kids and parents are pretty much identical now to how they were when I was a kid. People are people. There are the entitled ones and the humble ones, the ones who try to cope and the ones who just throw up their hands or get snotty. I wasn't anything approaching a perfect kid, nor are my nieces and nephews. In restaurants, I've been seated next to good kids and bad kids and the bad kids are just as often the ones in my party as they are in someone else's.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Yes. Well, I'm telling you what I have personally witnessed, and you are of course free to wave it away as selective delusion or intentional bias if you feel that better supports your own pet theory.

Don't go feeling special about it though. He/she has been doing it to quite a few people in the thread.

[Frylock]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

I think it's exactly the opposite. I think women are less secure around other women, and feel defensive.

Hm.... good point.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Yes. Well, I'm telling you what I have personally witnessed, and you are of course free to wave it away as selective delusion or intentional bias if you feel that better supports your own pet theory.

I don't think you understand what "confirmation bias" means.

It does not mean "selective delusion or intentional bias".

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Sleeps With Butterflies

Don't go feeling special about it though. He/she has been doing it to quite a few people in the thread.

Same comment.

If you think an argument about "confirmation bias" is an accusation of "selective delusion or intentional bias", you are simply not aware of what the argument is about.

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Oh the kids these days. They do not respect their elders. They run wild. Not like when I was growing up. Then we had real discipline.

This complaint is, literally, as old as literate civilization.



Every single generation appears to believe that when *they* were kids, things were different - and better. Parents were more responsible. They cared about discipline. Not like todays' clueless, lazy, irresponsible parents, and wild, undisciplined hellion children.

Ah yes, that Hesiod quote. I remember that one from back in my post-graduate days in sociology. I had to totally re-write a thesis devoted to an analysis of child-rearing norms throughout history. My supervising prof said that I had spent far too much time devoted to examining all of the manifest changes in human society over the last six millennia and considering how they might influence said norms. "No, no, no - you've got it all wrong," he said. "What you have completely failed to consider is that a Greek philosopher who died 2700 years ago has already scientifically established the immutability of human behavior."

I took his criticism pretty hard and felt rather despondent over the whole thing. He suggested I might have an excess of black bile in my system and offered to tap my gall bladder to balance things out. I foolishly demurred.

Wise man, that prof.



Disclaimer: I did not really do any post-graduate work in sociology.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Oh the kids these days. They do not respect their elders. They run wild. Not like when I was growing up. Then we had real discipline.

This complaint is, literally, as old as literate civilization. ...

Sure, but the Nazis made the kids straighten up and fly right with the Hitler Youth. Just look at the Pope. You think it's a coincidence he was in it?

Ah, if only the Boy Scouts were allowed to hold executions....

A man can dream, can't he?

[TheMightyAtlas]

Originally Posted by Alice The Goon

To be clear, my friend didn't ask the parents to shut that fucking baby up. He said to me, "I wish someone would shut that fucking baby up." He didn't say it to the room, or loudly enough that the offending parents should have even heard him. I agree that that would have been rude of him. They overheard him, accidentally... but fortunately. Who wants to eat with an infant screaming in their ear? Not me.

What are the odds that he would have been "accidentally" overheard if he was 5 foot 6 instead of 6 foot 5?

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Perhaps it's not the children who are different now, but the adults. That is, there are more parents who ignore their kids' acting out and more adults willing to make excuses for both the parents and kids.

As a good example of parenting I look to my own brother's family. I have a four-year-old nephew who's as spirited and rambunctious as any kid his age. In public places he sometimes gets bored, moody, etc., like any kid would. They don't take him to "fancy" restaurants while he's in this phase, and if we go to a more kid-friendly pizza or wing place and he begins whining or kicking the booth they'll address it immediately and tell him to behave. If he keeps it up, they take him outside for a one-on-one "you need to cut it out, now" talk. That usually does it; if he still persists, it's time to pay the check and go home. Sucks to do so, I'm sure, but that's part of the price of parenthood.

They aren't authoritarian or mean about it, nor are they asking too much of a child his age. They're doing what they're supposed to do as parents socializing a child, and they do it with love, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate seeing it while other parents' brats are left to run amok with impunity. At home, in the backyard, etc., he can play and scream to his heart's content, but he's being taught (whether he likes it or not) that when you're in a public place like a restaurant, you're supposed to behave. It's frightening to think how many kids aren't being taught that simple lesson, and what we may all be in for in a few years.

I think that this is the basic problem, not that kids have changed, but parenting styles have changed. Many people now believe that they can offer toddlers choices in every behavior. Sure, it's OK to ask your 3 year old if she wants to wear the pink or purple top today, when it really doesn't matter which one she wears. It's not a good idea to ask that same 3 year old if she's ready to leave the playground yet, when YOU know that you need to get going now if you want to be on time to that next appointment. She's going to say that she wants to play some more, you're going to keep asking her the same question and getting the same answer, and both of you will be frustrated. Instead, it's better to give the child limited choices, but as a parent, YOU decide the important things...like behavior in public, and when it's time to leave.

The thing is, when parents give these choices, they feel like they are doing the right thing, and if they can only reason well enough with the child, s/he'll be reasonable and see things the parent's way. But kids aren't reasonable, for the most part, and they want to do whatever is the most fun NOW, and never mind the consequences later. Hell, some so-called adults haven't mastered the concept of delayed gratification. Which brings us to another point. Teaching the kids proper behavior isn't something that's easy. It's damned hard. And a lot of people aren't willing to put in that much effort. It's easier to let the kid run around the restaurant, getting in everyone else's way, and play with the condiment bottles than to keep an eye on the kid and make sure that she stays seated and relatively quiet.

[WhyNot]

It's easy to give a meaningful (to a 3 year old) choice about when to leave, too. You just have to remember to do it earlier. If you need to leave at 3:00, you start the process at 2:45. "Honey, do you want to leave now, or in 15 minutes?" Of course the kid will say 15 minutes. So then she gets a 10 minute warning that is NOT phrased the the form of a choice: "Just letting you know, 10 more minutes!" And a 5, "We get to stay for 5 more minutes, wheeee!" and a 2, which may include a small choice: "Only 2 minutes left - slide or swings?" And then you leave at 3:00, just like you planned to all along.

Not all kids need such a production, of course, but the ones who have trouble with control and transitions really benefit from it. And that does seem to be most kids. Because, really - when you leave a party, do you decide to do it and grab your coat? Of course not. You contemplate leaving, you check in with your spouse about leaving in 10 or 20 minutes, you make your rounds and say goodbye, you use the bathroom one last time...very few of us, at any age, don't need some sort of planning to mentally and physically switch activities. So why not assume small people need the same space to transition, and teach them how to do it?

But yes, your point is spot on. "Choices" is a great parenting strategy, but you never EVER offer a choice that's not okay with you. Never. That will be the choice they choose. They don't have fully functioning frontal lobes in their brain. You've got to be their filter for many years, and filter out the ridiculous, impractical and dangerous options for them by just not mentioning them!

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Fuji

Ah yes, that Hesiod quote. I remember that one from back in my post-graduate days in sociology. I had to totally re-write a thesis devoted to an analysis of child-rearing norms throughout history. My supervising prof said that I had spent far too much time devoted to examining all of the manifest changes in human society over the last six millennia and considering how they might influence said norms. "No, no, no - you've got it all wrong," he said. "What you have completely failed to consider is that a Greek philosopher who died 2700 years ago has already scientifically established the immutability of human behavior."

I took his criticism pretty hard and felt rather despondent over the whole thing. He suggested I might have an excess of black bile in my system and offered to tap my gall bladder to balance things out. I foolishly demurred.

Wise man, that prof.



Disclaimer: I did not really do any post-graduate work in sociology.

Well, you where quite right to not bother with any post-graduate work in sociology - why bother with all that "science" stuff when, as many in this thread will tell you, a few choice anecdotes clearly demonstrates important and universal contemporary trends?

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Well, you where quite right to not bother with any post-graduate work in sociology - why bother with all that "science" stuff when, as many in this thread will tell you, a few choice anecdotes clearly demonstrates important and universal contemporary trends?

Who needs anecdotes when the real ace-in-the-hole is an impressive-sounding term like "confirmation bias"?

"You've had kids thump on your back? I never have! Confirmation bias!"

"You don't like screaming kids? Teenagers and old people are annoying too! Confirmation bias!"

"You think you can tell the difference between parents letting their kids run wild and parents making an effort? Confirmation bias! What, you've seen your brother and his wife doing a good job parenting their son and think they'd never for a moment allow him to terrorize a restaurant? Doubleplus confirmation bias!!!"

[Ruby Slippers]

Originally Posted by perfectparanoia

What we need here is someone who has been around to see two generations of children as an adult. I am thinking over 70 should do it. And it would be ideal if they were childless.

You rang? I'm not quite over 70, but close -- I'm 66. And childless. So that means I was a toddler myself more than 60 years ago, and I do remember going out to eat, being a bit bratty and being quickly reined in. I also remember an episode when I was in my twenties, at a restaurant with a friend and her brother and sister-in-law and their young child. He was probably around 2 or 3, old enough to be mobile, not old enough to be civilized. My friend and I both got pretty peeved and embarrassed that the parents didn't seem to be doing much to control the kid. So it's definitely not a modern phenomenon. Some parents are better than others at keeping their kids in check, some kids need a firmer hand than others.

By the way, while I'm strolling down memory lane (slowly but without a cane or walker yet), I'll mention that I remember babysitting (for 50 cents an hour) when I was about 12. I also remember that back then not only did kids ride without seatbelts, but so did grownups -- because cars didn't even have seatbelts back then. Times have changed and attitudes have changed. I think seatbelts are a good thing, but I would not characterize parents in earlier times of being uncaring about their children just because they operated by the standards of their times.

[Soylent Juicy]

You guys are going to laugh at me and I know it's not the same as what y'all are talking about, but I have to tell you this story.

A few weeks after I got my dog (she was about a year old, Blue Tick Coon Hound) I took her to obedience class. There was one particular day when she just wouldn't listen. She wouldn't stop barking (she rarely barks) and pulling and screwing around and I was SO EMBARRASSED. I was freakin' mortified at her behaviour. As we were driving home I had to actually pull over into a park and I just sat and cried in frustration. All I could think was: "This is how parents feel when their child acts up in public." At that moment I was so grateful that I'm never having kids, I couldn't imagine having that frustrated/helpless/everybody-thinks-I-suck-as-a-parent feeling on a regular basis. I will never, ever judge a parent whose child is acting up in public again!

(We got home and my dog went straight to the kitchen and had a massive drink of water. I couldn't believe it - she was simply thirsty. I felt like an even worse parent when I realized the problem, LOL.)

[Muffin]

These days, the most commonly served food is burgers that are mass produced and distributed to the restaurants.

Fortunately, there is a move to locally produced food. As this catches on, I predict that the number of ill behaved children running about and screaming in restaurants will be inversely proportional to the number of restaurants that grind their meat on the premises.

Remember, folks, eat local.

[shantih]

Originally Posted by Muffin

These days, the most commonly served food is burgers that are mass produced and distributed to the restaurants.

Fortunately, there is a move to locally produced food. As this catches on, I predict that the number of ill behaved children running about and screaming in restaurants will be inversely proportional to the number of restaurants that grind their meat on the premises.

Remember, folks, eat local.

Took me a moment. Clever!

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Muffin

These days, the most commonly served food is burgers that are mass produced and distributed to the restaurants.

Fortunately, there is a move to locally produced food. As this catches on, I predict that the number of ill behaved children running about and screaming in restaurants will be inversely proportional to the number of restaurants that grind their meat on the premises.

Remember, folks, eat local.

Soylent Green burgers. Soylent Juicy would pick that up

[billfish678]

It may be the percentage of bad parents today is the same it has always been. And it may be the percentage of kids that are naturally bad or hard to control is the same it has always been.

However, I do get the impression that over the past handful of decades one thing has changed. Adults other than parents are no longer "allowed" to set the kid straight if the parents won't. If thats true it certainly can't be helping on the "screaming kids" war.

[handsomeharry]

Originally Posted by miss elizabeth

You DO fucking choose to grow old. It's pretty much exactly the same as choosing to have kids.

Responsible people kill themselves before they ever burden the all-important Middle Aged. If you choose to continue living after 55 (60 at the latest) you deserve all the abuse you get, as a disgusting old person. Yuck! I mean, damn, at least kids will grow out of it and become productive members of society; old people are completely used up. They should either shut themselves up somewhere where no one has to see/smell them, or die. It's the only polite way.

Oh, yeah? Well, then, miss smarty pants, tell me this: Who will keep the lawns safe???
And besides, you need to be more polite, or else you'll never be mrs. elizabeth!






I'm a charmer, ain't I?