I put the author of "The Secret" and everyone who quotes it.

[Hampshire]

Oprah's OWN network is failing. She must have forgot what she read in The Secret.

[florez]

The power of focusing on the desire, will attract whatever you want, if you want something enough?
I always picture the author of "The Secret" lecturing in a part of the world where people are starving,
and saying: "Just keep focusing on the desire for food, and you will attract it to you.
But, if you continue to send out all those negative thoughts, about vultures picking the flesh from your weak and bony bodies........."

[DiosaBellissima]

Stoid, if The Secret really is the answer to success in life, why did you lose your court case? Did you not actually want to win? Or you just wanted the attention?

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

Stoid, if The Secret really is the answer to success in life

I'm sorry you're so confused. That must be frustrating.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by Stoid

I'm sorry you're so confused. That must be frustrating.

You're welcome to explain it to me-- ideally with lots of text formatting so I can really get your point.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

You're welcome to explain it to me

As I said, it must be terribly frustrating to be as confused as you obviously are. Best of luck with that.

[Zeriel]

Stoid: Winning since 1999.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by Stoid

As I said, it must be terribly frustrating to be as confused as you obviously are. Best of luck with that.

So, you can't explain it then? I mean, aren't we supposed to be fighting ignorance here? Fight mine, my friend!

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Zeriel

Stoid: Winning since 1999.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

Stoid, if The Secret really is the answer to success in life, why did you lose your court case?

Stoid aside, I'm curious: what's supposed to happen if, say, you sue me for a hundred thousand dollars -- or you're up against me for Olympic gold, or that big promotion at work, or whatever -- and you're of course wishing for victory with all your might, but I of course want to prevail and so wish for victory right back. Who wins?

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper

Stoid aside, I'm curious: what's supposed to happen if, say, you sue me for a hundred thousand dollars -- or you're up against me for Olympic gold, or that big promotion at work, or whatever -- and you're of course wishing for victory with all your might, but I of course want to prevail and so wish for victory right back. Who wins?

The person with the stronger vibrations?

This might be just as nutty as The Secret, but the idea of the universe lining itself up to obey my whims makes me quite uneasy.

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer

This might be just as nutty as The Secret, but the idea of the universe lining itself up to obey my whims makes me quite uneasy.

If I could get the universe to obey my whims, everybody should be very scared. My whims involve things like crashing a 500-km asteroid into the Earth and boiling the oceans because my feet are cold.

[Cat Whisperer]

Maybe that's what makes me uneasy - if my whim is to win a couple million in a lottery, maybe someone else's whim is to kill me when I merge in front of them in traffic.

[Anne Neville]

Fortunately for all of us, very few astronomers believe in things like The Secret. I can't speak for homicidal maniacs, though.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer

Maybe that's what makes me uneasy - if my whim is to win a couple million in a lottery, maybe someone else's whim is to kill me when I merge in front of them in traffic.

Indeed, sometimes people's luck arrives all at once, good and bad:

6. Cynthia Jay-Brennan


The odds of cocktail waitress Cynthia Jay-Brennan winning the Megabucks Jackpot on a slot machine at the Desert Inn in Las Vegas on January 27, 2000 were one in seven million. Her prize was just a few bucks shy of $35 million, a life-changing event for anyone. In a horrifying twist of fate, her luck didn't last, as she was paralyzed from the neck down in a car accident a few weeks later when a drunk driver rear ended her Camaro (her sister, tragically, was killed in the collision).

That story stuck with me because she won it a few days after I left the hotel where she won it, where I had played the same machines.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Hampshire

Oprah's OWN network is failing. She must have forgot what she read in The Secret.

No, not at all. She is failing because -- being, when all is said and done, a Negro -- she secretly wants to fail.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Anne Neville

If I could get the universe to obey my whims, everybody should be very scared. My whims involve things like crashing a 500-km asteroid into the Earth and boiling the oceans because my feet are cold.

Have I got a church for you!

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

No, not at all. She is failing because -- being, when all is said and done, a Negro -- she secretly wants to fail.

I'd bet it's more about wanting a good excuse to take a fucking break...

[Frylock]

Originally Posted by Stoid

"Fault" implies someone did something wrong, leading to something bad happening. That's your assessment, but that's not the way someone who believes in the law of attraction and the spiritual ideas I'm talking about would view it. It's not about fault, or blame, or wrong, or bad.

"Fault" doesn't have to imply that someone did something wrong. It can also be used simply to explain where the responsibility for a negative result lies. Something can be my "fault" without my having done anything "wrong" in causing that bad thing to happen.

Now, if someone says I had a miscarriage because of my own desires, let's not say they're saying it's my "fault," but clearly they are saying there is something I did which brought the miscarriage about. Now, why would they tell me this if they were not intending to imply that, if I were to refrain from doing this in the future, I would not have miscarriages in the future?

No talk of "fault" here still, as you can see. But there is definitely the recommendation: "Change the way you think or feel, and you won't have a miscarriage next time you concieve." That is not only false, but if I believe it, then I am basically doomed to think that any miscarriage I have in the future is--yes--my fault. It doesn't matter that the word "fault" wasn't used in the exposition of The Secret to me. What I will think, inevitably, if I am the least bit rational, is "I knew changing my thinking would prevent miscarriages, but I didn't succeed in preventing miscarriages, so I didn't succeed in changing my thinking." Doing X when it will lead to Y, where Y is bad, and where you know X will lead to Y, and where you know Y is bad, and where you could refrain from doing X, makes Y your "fault" by definition.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Frylock

What I will think, inevitably, if I am the least bit rational, is "I knew changing my thinking would prevent miscarriages, but I didn't succeed in preventing miscarriages, so I didn't succeed in changing my thinking." Doing X when it will lead to Y, where Y is bad, and where you know X will lead to Y, and where you know Y is bad, and where you could refrain from doing X, makes Y your "fault" by definition.

I explained how the law of attraction works, how those who teach it mean it to be understood to work.

While what you say is technically true, the practical fact is that people perceive personal responsibility in different ways; when somone chooses the word "fault", they generally mean "whose bad (choice/behavior/thought/decision) led to this fucked up result?". If they want to know whose great (idea/thought/beahvior/choice) led to this marvelous result, they don't say: "Whose fault is this delicious meal?" Whose fault is it that this company doubled its profits? Whose fault is it that this child is so healthy and smart and good-natured? Whose fault is it that this house is so beautifully decorated?

And you know it.

[Frylock]

Originally Posted by Stoid

I explained how the law of attraction works, how those who teach it mean it to be understood to work.

While what you say is technically true, the practical fact is that people perceive personal responsibility in different ways; when somone chooses the word "fault", they generally mean "whose bad (choice/behavior/thought/decision) led to this fucked up result?". If they want to know whose great (idea/thought/beahvior/choice) led to this marvelous result, they don't say: "Whose fault is this delicious meal?" Whose fault is it that this company doubled its profits? Whose fault is it that this child is so healthy and smart and good-natured? Whose fault is it that this house is so beautifully decorated?

And you know it.

Yes, I know it--and I said it.

But I don't understand the relevance of your comment. If anything, what you've just said would tend to lend support to my argument that The Secret does inevitably and irresponsibly lead to people placing fault (fault) on themselves incorrectly and unnecessarily.

[Sarahfeena]

Originally Posted by Stoid

Assuming for a moment that it does work as advertised using the lottery to disprove it doesn't work. Because no one actually expects to win the lottery they simply hope and pray and wish they don't really expect, and genuine expectation is key. Taking it outside the realm of the fantastical for a moment, if you think about it you'll see that people really do get what they genuinely expect.

Do you think anyone expects their child to get cancer and die? Because that actually happens to people, you know.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Frylock

But I don't understand the relevance of your comment. If anything, what you've just said would tend to lend support to my argument that The Secret does inevitably and irresponsibly lead to people placing fault (fault) on themselves incorrectly and unnecessarily.

That's because you've switched horses.

fault = negative, bad, wrong, inadequate, erroneous, fucked up.

vs.

Responsible = responsible

They aren't the same. I didn't say there was no responsibility, I was trying to explain that the value judgment (represented by the word "fault") on one's own (thoughts/beliefs/focus/fears/mental and emotional energy) was not built into the law of attraction itself and shouldn't be seen that way.
I explained that:

Originally Posted by Stoid

...what appears to be negative (disease, war, suffering of whatever kind) is just experience, no better or worse than any other experience, and all are chosen just for the purpose of having the experience.

So when people blame people who aare suffering from terrible things, it's offbase even within the belief system that the Secret promotes. That belief system would say that people experiencing extreme negatives have done so either because of fear or because it's an experience for the spirit. Neither of which would probably be received by the sufferer a whole lot better, but actually are not quite so flippantly dismissive of a person's individual struggles.

And the response was:

Originally Posted by iftheresaway

And how is that not saying that ... in other words, that it was my fault?

Fault" implies someone did something wrong, leading to something bad happening. That's your assessment, but that's not the way someone who believes in the law of attraction and the spiritual ideas I'm talking about would view it. It's not about fault, or blame, or wrong, or bad.

You then said:

Originally Posted by Frylock

"Fault" doesn't have to imply that someone did something wrong. It can also be used simply to explain where the responsibility for a negative result lies. Something can be my "fault" without my having done anything "wrong" in causing that bad thing to happen.

....when somone chooses the word "fault", they generally mean "whose bad (choice/behavior/thought/decision) led to this fucked up result?".

And now you say:

Originally Posted by Frylock

But I don't understand the relevance of your comment. If anything, what you've just said would tend to lend support to my argument that The Secret does inevitably and irresponsibly lead to people placing fault (fault) on themselves incorrectly and unnecessarily.

It looks to me like you're changing your point, moving away from the issue of any value judgment inherent in the use of the word "fault" and on to the issue of whether assigning any kind of responsibility (via the operation of the law of attraction) will make people feel responsible.

Are you taking issue with "fault" representing a negative value judgment on a person's responsibility, or something else?

[Sarahfeena]

Also, I think Oprah buys into and promotes this stuff so she can convince herself that she somehow manifested her good fortune. It's a lot easier to feel like you deserve it that way, vs. having to admit that a huge portion of it was luck.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Sarahfeena

Do you think anyone expects their child to get cancer and die? Because that actually happens to people, you know.

You appear to be asking if, according to the law of attraction, someone's child contracting cancer and dying is a direct result of that person expecting their child to get cancer and die, the answer is likely not, because people don't generally expect their children to contact cancer and die. But that isnt' the only way that the law of attraction would operate to lead to that result. The most obvious way it might is through fear, and there are others - if one embraces the law as true, it becomes a matter of searching one's own thoughts, feelings, speech, focus, fear, emotion to see where connections might lie. Everyone has to answer these questions for themselves and if they can't do it alone but want to understand more, they should seek a teacher or read some books on the subject. Something a little more in-depth and less one-dimensional than "The Secret".

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Sarahfeena

Also, I think Oprah buys into and promotes this stuff so she can convince herself that she somehow manifested her good fortune. It's a lot easier to feel like you deserve it that way, vs. having to admit that a huge portion of it was luck.

Actually I think Oprah feels that Oprah earned it through hard work, talent, etc.

[Sarahfeena]

Originally Posted by Stoid

Actually I think Oprah feels that Oprah earned it through hard work, talent, etc.

I'm sure she does, and it's partly true (course, having extraordinary talent is a bit of luck right there). But she's smart enough to know that something lifted her above everyone else who works hard and has talent. It's pretty convenient to be able to say that it all happened because you had the right attitude.

[Sarahfeena]

Originally Posted by Stoid

You appear to be asking if, according to the law of attraction, someone's child contracting cancer and dying is a direct result of that person expecting their child to get cancer and die, the answer is likely not, because people don't generally expect their children to contact cancer and die. But that isnt' the only way that the law of attraction would operate to lead to that result. The most obvious way it might is through fear, and there are others - if one embraces the law as true, it becomes a matter of searching one's own thoughts, feelings, speech, focus, fear, emotion to see where connections might lie. Everyone has to answer these questions for themselves and if they can't do it alone but want to understand more, they should seek a teacher or read some books on the subject. Something a little more in-depth and less one-dimensional than "The Secret".

So you're saying that people who fear that something bad might happen make their children get cancer and die? Nice.

[Frylock]

Originally Posted by Stoid

Are you taking issue with "fault" representing a negative value judgment on a person's responsibility, or something else?

The Secret inevitably leads any (minimally rational) person to unnecessarily and incorrectly find fault with themselves.

The Secret accomplishes this while carefully avoiding the use of the term "fault" itself.

"And you know it."

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Sarahfeena

So you're saying that people who fear that something bad might happen make their children get cancer and die? Nice.

No, I'm explaining how the law of attraction is supposed to operate.

[Sarahfeena]

Originally Posted by Stoid

No, I'm explaining how the law of attraction is supposed to operate.

You appear to be asking if, according to the law of attraction, someone's child contracting cancer and dying is a direct result of that person expecting their child to get cancer and die, the answer is likely not, because people don't generally expect their children to contact cancer and die. But that isnt' the only way that the law of attraction would operate to lead to that result. The most obvious way it might is through fear,

OK, what part did you explain that I didn't understand?

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Frylock

The Secret inevitably leads any (minimally rational) person to unnecessarily and incorrectly find fault with themselves.

The Secret accomplishes this while carefully avoiding the use of the term "fault" itself.

"And you know it."

Still not clear... taking issue with whether the law of attraction operates as advertised? Complaining that if it does, people end up feeling guilty? Both? Neither? Complaining that if people believe it does, they end up feeling guilty? Complaining that people feel guilty when they shouldn't even if they are responsible? And all of this is inevitable?

I don't know what you're driving at in relation to taking issue with my explanation of why fault was a bad choice of words, and that's where you started.

As for the rest, I've known a lot of people over a lot of years (since roughly 1975) who embrace the ideas behind the law of attraction to one extent or another. I can't think of a single one who ended up paralyzed with self-loathing because they suddenly understood how blameworthy they were.(Quite the reverse) The only people I've ever seen take that kind of attitude were people who didn't ever believe the law of attraction worked to begin with, they just felt insulted by people who did believe it sharing it with them, whereupon they decided to feel attacked and got defensive.

Your phrasing is interesting, too: "The Secret inevitably leads any (minimally rational) person to unnecessarily and incorrectly find fault with themselves." "the Secret accomplishes this."

The Secret is a book. If anyone comes away from that book feeling that they are at fault for anything, the book didn't "accomplish" it. The book didn't do anything at all except present ideas, and I sure hope you arne't going to start blaming books for making people feel or do or believe or think anything at all.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Sarahfeena

OK, what part did you explain that I didn't understand?

Everything you didn't want to, and I expect that will continue. Enjoy.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Sarahfeena

I'm sure she does, and it's partly true (course, having extraordinary talent is a bit of luck right there). But she's smart enough to know that something lifted her above everyone else who works hard and has talent. It's pretty convenient to be able to say that it all happened because you had the right attitude.

"Convenient"? Whatever...

[Sarahfeena]

Originally Posted by Stoid

Everything you didn't want to, and I expect that will continue. Enjoy.

That's a weird thing to say. I quoted exactly what you said and asked how I misunderstood it. Are you not able to explain that?

[Frylock]

Originally Posted by Stoid

Still not clear...
taking issue with whether the law of attraction operates as advertised?

Yes.

Complaining that if it does, people end up feeling guilty?

No

Complaining that if people believe it does, they end up feeling guilty?

Yes--with the caveat that self-judgments of guilt are the inevitable rational outcome given what the Secret (as explained by you) claims.

As for the rest, I've known a lot of people over a lot of years (since roughly 1975) who embrace the ideas behind the law of attraction to one extent or another. I can't think of a single one who ended up paralyzed with self-loathing because they suddenly understood how blameworthy they were.(Quite the reverse)

Then your friends lack minimal rationality.

I sure hope you arne't going to start blaming books for making people feel or do or believe or think anything at all.

Absolutely I affirm that books can make people feel and believe things. I do not know how you can deny it. It's almost the only thing books are good for.

[Ferret Herder]

Originally Posted by Frylock

Absolutely I affirm that books can make people feel and believe things. I do not know how you can deny it. It's almost the only thing books are good for.

Oh, oh, I know this one! This is where we learn The Lesson that no one/nothing makes you feel anything; your reactions are your own choice. (I suggest lobbing The Secret with great force at the head of someone engaging in this sort of sophistry and asserting that they chose to feel pain.)

BTW, this "law of attraction" bullshit is useful in making people take responsibility for their own stupid choices in life and in taking a hard look at the sort of stuff they're wasting time/energy/headspace on. Sadly, most people I've seen look into it are great at projecting onto others about all the stuff those other people should be taking responsibility for. A quote from an older book about looking after the log in one's own eye before picking on someone else about their mote comes to mind...

[Sarahfeena]

Originally Posted by Sarahfeena

That's a weird thing to say. I quoted exactly what you said and asked how I misunderstood it. Are you not able to explain that?

I mean, really, I was thinking about this some more. It seems odd that when I take the philosophy to what seems to be a logical conclusion, you tell me that I'm willfully not understanding it, when really that's not it at all. I'm trying to understand how it is that you arrive at a different conclusion than the one I did. If there's a flaw in my thinking, I'm not getting it.

[Jenaroph]

Originally Posted by Stoid

You appear to be asking if, according to the law of attraction, someone's child contracting cancer and dying is a direct result of that person expecting their child to get cancer and die, the answer is likely not, because people don't generally expect their children to contact cancer and die. But that isnt' the only way that the law of attraction would operate to lead to that result. The most obvious way it might is through fear, and there are others - if one embraces the law as true, it becomes a matter of searching one's own thoughts, feelings, speech, focus, fear, emotion to see where connections might lie. Everyone has to answer these questions for themselves and if they can't do it alone but want to understand more, they should seek a teacher or read some books on the subject. Something a little more in-depth and less one-dimensional than "The Secret".

Your own beliefs about the laws of attraction are one thing, but if "The Secret" doesn't explain these laws properly, you ought to be right on board with this pitting, because The Secret very much lays blame directly on people for the bad things that happen to them. This thread isn't pitting the "laws of attraction," it's pitting "The Secret" and the people who take it as gospel.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Jenaroph

but if "The Secret" doesn't explain these laws properly, you ought to be right on board with this pitting, because The Secret very much lays blame directly on people for the bad things that happen to them. This thread isn't pitting the "laws of attraction," it's pitting "The Secret" and the people who take it as gospel.

Big "if" there at the beginning, and I disagree that The Secret failed to properly explain the laws. It failed to be very effective at helping people understand how they can take more control of their random thoughts, but as far as how it works, I don't think it got it wrong.

And so far, have we heard from anyone who

• actually read the book
• embraced the ideas as true
• ended up feeling shitty for being so terrible and creating such terrible things?

I assume there are such people, many people in this thread seem pretty convinced they exist, but so far I don't think we've heard from them.

Who we have heard from are people who heard half-assed regurgitations from other people, rejected it as bullshit out the gate, and then got angry anyway.

They're certainly entitled, but it hardly seems fair to bitch out the book for that.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Frylock

Yes.

Then why did you lead with an argument against my saying "fault" implies a negative?

Yes--with the caveat that self-judgments of guilt are the inevitable rational outcome given what the Secret (as explained by you) claims.
Then your friends lack minimal rationality.

Your confidence in yourself as the arbiter of what constitutes rationality is impressive. That's some big shoes, there, pardner.

Absolutely I affirm that books can make people feel and believe things. I do not know how you can deny it. It's almost the only thing books are good for.

Then how is it they don't "make" everyone believe everything they say?

Because they don't make anyone do anything. Books present ideas. People can believe them or reject them, in part or in full, as they choose. If you honestly believe that books "make" people believe things, then you have very little respect for people's ability to think and decide for themselves and a frightening faith in the power of books, to such a degree I would avoid them were I you.

[Zeriel]

Look at it this way, Stoid.

I believe that The Secret is true--if I really really believe in something, it'll happen to me.

My kid gets cancer. I believe he'll get well (in addition to doing the right things with medical care, and so forth). The kid dies.

I am GOING to believe it's my fault for not believing hard enough.

The whole idea is beyond fucking ridiculous, and it's going to hurt anyone who believes in its ridiculous bullshit and then crashes into the plain simple fact that there is bad luck and the universe does not give one tiny fuck about how hard you believe.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Ferret Herder

BTW, this "law of attraction" bullshit is useful in making people take responsibility for their own stupid choices in life and in taking a hard look at the sort of stuff they're wasting time/energy/headspace on.

Indeed, which is why I find it amusing that so many people seem to have a problem with it. I'd MUCH rather be surrounded by people who believe that they are responsible for their lives than people who are constantly coming up with reasons why nothing is thier responsibility at all. Whatever gets you there, it's a good place to be.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Zeriel

Look at it this way, Stoid.

I believe that The Secret is true--if I really really believe in something, it'll happen to me.

My kid gets cancer. I believe he'll get well (in addition to doing the right things with medical care, and so forth). The kid dies.

I am GOING to believe it's my fault for not believing hard enough.

The whole idea is beyond fucking ridiculous, and it's going to hurt anyone who believes in its ridiculous bullshit and then crashes into the plain simple fact that there is bad luck and the universe does not give one tiny fuck about how hard you believe.

What is it you think you are shedding light on here? As I said, I haven't really run across a whole lot of people who are trashed over their conviction that they gave their kid cancer, none, actually, but I've run into a lot of people who are fond of imagining that scenario as a damning of the idea of the law of attraction.

In any case, I've explained what I came to explain. Carry on with the pitting...

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by Stoid

Indeed, which is why I find it amusing that so many people seem to have a problem with it. I'd MUCH rather be surrounded by people who believe that they are responsible for their lives than people who are constantly coming up with reasons why nothing is thier responsibility at all. Whatever gets you there, it's a good place to be.

You are guilty yourself of not accepting personal responsibility for the bad circumstances around you. We have seen this time and time and time again (and I emphasized the font the way you like to do, in order to help you get it). It's the crooked judge's fault! It's your evil ex! It's the scheming Appeals Court judge! Never, not even once, could it be poor, innocent Stoid.

Ask any of the lawyers who tried to kindly give you advice in one of your numerous break down threads and see if they think you've taken responsibility for your own poor choices.

So, we're left with the fact that you-- based on your own criteria-- are not fit to discuss "The Secret." You may have read the book, but you certainly don't embrace and practice the ideas that it gives.
ended up feeling shitty for being so terrible and creating such terrible things?

[DiosaBellissima]

Oops. That last line was because I originally copy and pasted her "criteria" on there, but only deleted part of it.

See? That's me accepting the err of my ways. I'm going to mentally wish that I don't ever fuck up a post again. You're welcome, Straight Dope.

[Stoid]

I see your confusion persists, Diosa...well, so does my sympathy for your plight.

[Cat Whisperer]

I don't think Diosa's confused at all.

[zweisamkeit]

Originally Posted by Stoid

I see your confusion persists, Diosa...well, so does my sympathy for your plight.

I think it'd be great if you actually answered people who successfully back you into a wall. Both Diosa and Sarahfeena have brought up points or questions and you suddenly do an about-face and disengage.

I'm sure you think you appear to be focused on the topic and refusing to be side-tracked. However, I'll say that it actually gives the impression that you have no answer and are avoiding admitting that. You end up weakening your position and strengthening theirs.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by zweisamkeit

I think it'd be great if you actually answered people who successfully back you into a wall. Both Diosa and Sarahfeena have brought up points or questions and you suddenly do an about-face and disengage.

Hey, that style plus her positive thinking totally worked for her in court.


Oh, wait.