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  #1  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:09 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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On the Attempted Conversion of My Daughter to Christianity

My daughter is a twelve year old UU atheist. She's pretty darn sure there is no God, in good atheist fashion, and in good Unitarian fashion, is aware that there are multiple paths and beliefs worthy of respect - IF there were to be a God, there certainly wouldn't be a single truth that could be objectively evaluated as The Truth.

One of her very good friends is an Evangelical Christian. The girls have been having theological discussions for years (their teachers find them interesting and tell me about them). Her friend is an interesting girl - bright, who reads books I'm sure her mother has no idea about the content (she read Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and sequels, and her mother was upset about it, but she read Harry Potter).

Their family has been picking up my daughter for Church Night once in a while this year. I suspect to "save her soul." It probably isn't going to work for that - its hard to convert a UU Atheist to One Truth, but my daughter has fun with the games - she finds the Bible study a little boring, yet at the same time amusing in that "can you believe they believe" sort of way.

So I've been loaning this girl books. And movies. One of my friends asked if she should loan her something in particular - since the family is so conservative. My response "well, they've been trying to convert my daughter, I figure I get to try and corrupt theirs." (Note, if she hadn't already read Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, I wouldn't be so flippant - but this girl is going to get her hands on contraband literature...and what she needs is grown ups she can talk to about it if the subject matter is confusing.)

My daughter is hosting a party. Some of her church friends will be there. As will this girl. I'm looking forward to it.
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  #2  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:36 PM
Faruiza Faruiza is offline
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I can dig it, I'm on board, and I can't wait for the ensuing (penis) hilarity.
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  #3  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:36 PM
OldnCrinkly OldnCrinkly is offline
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Dangerosa, I don't know what exactly you have in mind, but it comes across like you are up to no good. Yes, they have taken your daughter to church functions, but they have done so with your knowledge and permission, yes? I would really really not like it if I let my daughter go to a sleepover (expectations of popcorn, movies, nail polish and gossip) and the parent in charge had expectations of ...what? Undermining the religion that I believe in and am teaching my children? That's not nice. I don't think you would appreciate then saying they are taking your daughter to church Night and portraying it as a mostly social scene if it was, in fact, much more like recruitment night. You don't have the right to do that with someone else's 12 yo daughter. As a parent, I would not want my daughter to come to your house again after that. And I would be very upset if an ADULT were encouraging my daughter to keep secrets from me. Surely, as a parent yourself, you can appreciate that? Doing sneaky stuff with other peoples children is not good.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:38 PM
Enginerd Enginerd is offline
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Originally Posted by OldnCrinkly View Post
Dangerosa, I don't know what exactly you have in mind, but it comes across like you are up to no good. Yes, they have taken your daughter to church functions, but they have done so with your knowledge and permission, yes? I would really really not like it if I let my daughter go to a sleepover (expectations of popcorn, movies, nail polish and gossip) and the parent in charge had expectations of ...what? Undermining the religion that I believe in and am teaching my children? That's not nice. I don't think you would appreciate then saying they are taking your daughter to church Night and portraying it as a mostly social scene if it was, in fact, much more like recruitment night. You don't have the right to do that with someone else's 12 yo daughter. As a parent, I would not want my daughter to come to your house again after that. And I would be very upset if an ADULT were encouraging my daughter to keep secrets from me. Surely, as a parent yourself, you can appreciate that? Doing sneaky stuff with other peoples children is not good.
(bolding mine)

This is exactly what the friend's family is doing with Dangerosa's daughter. Does your "not nice" characterization only apply to non-Christians?
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  #5  
Old 04-12-2012, 11:49 PM
Sparky the Wonder Spirit Sparky the Wonder Spirit is offline
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Originally Posted by Enginerd View Post
This is exactly what the friend's family is doing with Dangerosa's daughter. Does your "not nice" characterization only apply to non-Christians?
Do you really not understand the difference between taking a kid somewhere with the parents' full knowledge and consent, and giving something to a kid behind her parents' back?

But Christians are stupid, so of course it's OK.

Last edited by Sparky the Wonder Spirit; 04-12-2012 at 11:50 PM..
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  #6  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:03 AM
grude grude is online now
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I'm as atheisty as they come and I'm not seeing the issue here, you seem to be er upset your daughter is exposed to christians. She hasn't complained they are harassing her and seems to enjoy the bible lessons, she is getting to an age where she can make up her own mind. There seem to be a certain kind of atheist that scream whenever they see a trace of religion in the world, not just government mandated but any.

Shit borrow books to their daughter but don't do it for revenge.
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  #7  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:10 AM
OldnCrinkly OldnCrinkly is offline
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Originally Posted by Enginerd View Post
(bolding mine)

This is exactly what the friend's family is doing with Dangerosa's daughter. Does your "not nice" characterization only apply to non-Christians?
I ain't the one partner, so don't go making assumptions about me. I'll make this simple for you: Being upfront about your plans with someone else's child=O.K., having ulterior motives when supervising someone else's child=NO-NO.

Does that clarify it for you at all? Because religion is only the side issue here really.
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  #8  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:20 AM
Koxinga Koxinga is offline
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Originally Posted by grude View Post
she is getting to an age where she can make up her own mind.
I think that's exactly what the OP is worried about, albeit (probably) unconsciously. By trying to enlist her daughter as a conspirator in some silly mind games, the OP might feel she still has some measure of control over her daughter's own mind.

In other words, eh, she's not being an atheist, she's being a worried parent. Nothing too remarkable.

ETA: Except when the daughter wises up, the clever plan is liable to backfire and the young gal might become a converted Christian rebel just to sass Mom off. (Oh noes!) Then we'll probably see some really entertaining Pit posts from the OP.

Last edited by Koxinga; 04-13-2012 at 12:25 AM..
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  #9  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:30 AM
cmyk cmyk is offline
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Two wrongs don't make a right. But that's never stopped anybody. Nothing wrong with a bit of appropriate, secular exposure, though.
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  #10  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:36 AM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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I'm a hard core atheist and I agree with OldnCrinkly. The parents aren't sneaking your daughter to church, they are inviting her to come with them. She, and you as the parent, can make an informed decision and decline the invitation.

Trying to covertly undermine the other parent's authority over their kid sounds like a great way for your daughter to lose a friend and it is showing less respect for the other parents than they have shown to you.
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  #11  
Old 04-13-2012, 02:10 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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In theory this situation should have a sort of symmetry of jurisdiction to it, but in practice, you're not going to just be dealing with the hard facts of the situation - you're going to be dealing with the perceptions of the other people - which probably does not include an appreciation of the logical symmetry of jurisdiction.

That's neither a reason to do it, or abstain from it - just an observation. You just might need to measure whether you have a sufficient appetite for whatever level/probability of conflict may ensue.
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  #12  
Old 04-13-2012, 02:31 AM
Simplicio Simplicio is offline
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Yea, I'd say doing something with someone else's twelve year old that you know their parents would disapprove and without their parents knowledge is a pretty big no-no. They seemed to have gotten your permission for Church Night, if you think they might have a problem with the books your lending her you should do the same.
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  #13  
Old 04-13-2012, 03:08 AM
gracer gracer is offline
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The girl's parents don't own her, they don't own the right to mandate what literature other people hand to her. She's 12 years old f'chrissakes.

There's universal bad stuff, like handing her a needle and heroine, and there's universal good stuff, like handing her books that will make her think.

Needle bad, books good. Even if her crazy parents think some books are bad.

I say it's your duty to help broaden this girl's horizons, just as they are doing for your daughter.

Last edited by gracer; 04-13-2012 at 03:08 AM..
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  #14  
Old 04-13-2012, 06:08 AM
Telemark Telemark is offline
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Originally Posted by gracer View Post
The girl's parents don't own her, they don't own the right to mandate what literature other people hand to her.
Actually, they do.

Quote:
There's universal bad stuff, like handing her a needle and heroine, and there's universal good stuff, like handing her books that will make her think.
Not everyone would agree with that, so it's not really universal.

If the girl's parents are aware and OK with this, then there's nothing wrong going on. If they girl's parents aren't aware, then this feels wrong to me.
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2012, 06:18 AM
Candyman74 Candyman74 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dangerosa View Post
My response "well, they've been trying to convert my daughter, I figure I get to try and corrupt theirs."
I don't think 12-yr old children should be used as ammunition in this manner. If you have a problem with them taking your daughter to religious events once in a while, you're the parent, and the one responsible - say no.

Both children will be old enough to make their own life decisions in a few years.
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  #16  
Old 04-13-2012, 06:28 AM
sandra_nz sandra_nz is offline
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Ew, this just sounds creepy. You want to knowingly give a child material that you know her parents would find objectionable, simply because they have invited your daughter (presumably with your permission) to something that you find objectionable to some degree, but obviously not enough to actual forbid your daughter from attending.
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  #17  
Old 04-13-2012, 06:38 AM
gracer gracer is offline
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Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
Actually, they do.


Not everyone would agree with that, so it's not really universal.

If the girl's parents are aware and OK with this, then there's nothing wrong going on. If they girl's parents aren't aware, then this feels wrong to me.
You think parents own their children? That's creepy. I think at first they get to make decisions, later they move from decision-maker to offering guidance.

There probably are people who don't think books are universally A Good Thing for Children, and calling it universal was hyperbole. I presumed that in a place like the SDMB, the goodness of books (in general) would be considered pretty universal.

I don't think giving the child a book is such a big problem, and if it is to those parents they are so far over a certain line that it becomes even more necessary to give her the book. Even by law, parents do not own children and they can't completely do with them as they see fit. By law they can probably prevent them from accessing certain books, but that would still make them wrong to do that. They can probably force them not to eat vegetables, but you would still offer them some if they showed up at your house looking peaky.

If you give her the book, they can always take it away from her. That would be a good incentive to talk to them about freedom of religion, educating yourself and making up your own mind. If they are remotely fit to be parents, they will guide her through reading the book while offering their own perspective. If they are unfit to be parents and want to own the girl's mind then the book becomes necessary to her freedom, and should be given to her regardless of what her parents think.

The most important thing is not the parents in this matter. It's the girl, and her right to make up her own mind. That trumps whatever right the parents have in deciding what to teach her.
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:42 AM
Maastricht Maastricht is offline
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I was in the position of your daughter, and I want to warn you you risk jeopardizing your daughters friendship.

Back when I was a kid, the Christian parents of my friend were very sweet people. Very hospitable and kind. But they didn't see my atheism and their faith as equal. For them, them trying to convert me amounted to giving me a very great gift. But if I would have tried the saem with their daughter, they would regard that as me trying to rob their innocent little girl of the greatest gift they could have given her. As corruption of the worst kind.
For religious parents, atheiasm and religion are no equal things. They don't treat it as light hearted as you do. The parents of my friend discouraged her from seeing me the moment she shared with her parents that "talking to ma made it seem like it all wasn't true" . I lost my friend and I lost the friendship of her parents.

Is that a lesson you want your daughter to learn?
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  #19  
Old 04-13-2012, 06:47 AM
steronz steronz is online now
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While I love me some good child corruptin', I think the best way to convert people to any religion (or non-religion) is to lead a good example. The moment you get caught delivering Jesus-bashing contraband to this girl, the parents are just going to throw their hands up and say, "Typical atheists, always without the morals!" DON'T play into their expectations. DO throw their own tactics back at them -- offer to take little evangelical girl to your Unitarian church, for example. If they say no, act all taken aback, like you don't understand why there's a double standard.

Last edited by steronz; 04-13-2012 at 06:48 AM..
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  #20  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:01 AM
gracer gracer is offline
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
While I love me some good child corruptin', I think the best way to convert people to any religion (or non-religion) is to lead a good example. The moment you get caught delivering Jesus-bashing contraband to this girl, the parents are just going to throw their hands up and say, "Typical atheists, always without the morals!" DON'T play into their expectations. DO throw their own tactics back at them -- offer to take little evangelical girl to your Unitarian church, for example. If they say no, act all taken aback, like you don't understand why there's a double standard.
I do completely agree with this. I just don't think giving her a book is such a terrible thing. She's already read books her parents didn't really want her to read. Hand her the book, if the parents don't like it act taken aback at the double standard. It's not like they've asked you not to give her books. And I think the OP has a good point saying she needs adults she knows she can talk to about the stuff she is reading.

It sounds like Dangerosa was half-joking when talking about "corrupting" the child, and sneakily doing it at a sleepover. In my experience it's more of a natural process with the curiosity of children. You notice they are looking for knowledge and you help them out, guide them, let them know they can trust you if they have questions. It doesn't sound to me like Dangerosa is really conniving behind the parents' backs to turn their daughter to the dark side, which is how some posters are reacting. She's disseminating knowledge, if they don't like it they can always discuss it.

And Maastricht, I wouldn't worry too much, it sounds like the parents are probably well aware of the discussions the two children have already, and are ok with that (right?).
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  #21  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:07 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Originally Posted by Sparky the Wonder Spirit View Post
Do you really not understand the difference between taking a kid somewhere with the parents' full knowledge and consent, and giving something to a kid behind her parents' back?

But Christians are stupid, so of course it's OK.
They don't have my full knowledge and consent. They started taking her without my permission and I found out where she was going and when I did find out, I was told it was "game night" - my daughter says it also includes a large bible study component. I don't mind, I think exposure to many things makes for better people.

Oh, I'm not an atheist. And I think its great she's being exposed. I think the attempt at conversion is funny and thought you guys would appreciate it. And the books I've loaned her - To Kill A Mockingbird.

Last edited by Dangerosa; 04-13-2012 at 07:10 AM..
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  #22  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:16 AM
gracer gracer is offline
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And the books I've loaned her - To Kill A Mockingbird.
Uhm... do you really think they would be upset at her reading that book? You were joking, right? worried...
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  #23  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:24 AM
steronz steronz is online now
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Originally Posted by Dangerosa View Post
They don't have my full knowledge and consent. They started taking her without my permission and I found out where she was going and when I did find out, I was told it was "game night" - my daughter says it also includes a large bible study component. I don't mind, I think exposure to many things makes for better people.

Oh, I'm not an atheist. And I think its great she's being exposed. I think the attempt at conversion is funny and thought you guys would appreciate it. And the books I've loaned her - To Kill A Mockingbird.
In that case, you have my full permission to talk to her about how cool the t-shirts are in paganism.

Game night my foot...
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  #24  
Old 04-13-2012, 08:12 AM
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is offline
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Uhm... do you really think they would be upset at her reading that book? You were joking, right? worried...
12 years old is too young to be reading a book about tequila!
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:17 AM
gracer gracer is offline
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12 years old is too young to be reading a book about tequila!
Or maybe too old to be reading about little children and pretty birdies. Kid should be reading War and Peace and then No Country for Old Men.
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  #26  
Old 04-13-2012, 08:43 AM
raspberry hunter raspberry hunter is offline
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I'm a little horrified at how many people are saying it's a horrible thing to lend a kid books. I guess it's because when I was twelve, I was reading all sorts of things my parents would probably not have totally approved of had they actually read the books (since they hadn't, they were none the wiser). Many of these were recommended by other people (who, to be fair, probably had no idea my parents would or would not have approved; they were thinking about me and what I would like and not my parents). (Nothing terrible -- the most risque thing I can think of was The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and that was recommended to me by a friend who just thought it was a good story, not because she wanted to corrupt me.)

Ironically, when my sister was going through adolescence my parents kept trying to get her to read "that science fiction stuff" because they had figured out (correctly) that it was correlated to an interest in science. And I must say that I think they were correct that it was better than the saccharine romances she would sometimes bring home

For the record: I'm a Christian (though an agnostic one). And I have a daughter, and I'd like to think I'd totally be cool with it if other people lent her books that didn't correspond to my worldview (I'd like to think I'd raise her well enough that she'd come talk to me if she had issues, but that's my problem and not the problem of the people who might lend her books).
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:52 AM
sandra_nz sandra_nz is offline
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Originally Posted by raspberry hunter View Post
I'm a little horrified at how many people are saying it's a horrible thing to lend a kid books.
My objection is not to lending a kid books, it's to lending a kid books when you are confident the parents would object to you lending those books to their child.
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  #28  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:03 AM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
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Is this real, or pure allegory?
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  #29  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:56 AM
Malacandra Malacandra is offline
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Originally Posted by gracer View Post
Or maybe too old to be reading about little children and pretty birdies. Kid should be reading War and Peace and then No Country for Old Men.
Little children and pretty birdies? Racism, a mockery of a rape trial that was hardly any better than the lynching it supposedly prevented, attempted murder and a frankly weird shut-in, and ISTR drug addiction comes in at one point as well. You have read TKAM I take it?
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:02 AM
Eyebrows 0f Doom Eyebrows 0f Doom is offline
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Little children and pretty birdies? Racism, a mockery of a rape trial that was hardly any better than the lynching it supposedly prevented, attempted murder and a frankly weird shut-in, and ISTR drug addiction comes in at one point as well. You have read TKAM I take it?
Whoosh.
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  #31  
Old 04-13-2012, 10:59 AM
gracer gracer is offline
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Whoosh.
Thank you.
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  #32  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:36 AM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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Has your daughter invited her friend to some of the UU youth activities? Now there's an education!

I hope your daughter is in the UU sex ed program. Both my girls went through it, and ended up very well educated about the topic, and navigated their way into their mid 20's and stable relationships much more easily as a result (or so they've reported.)
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  #33  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:38 AM
OldnCrinkly OldnCrinkly is offline
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My objection is not to lending a kid books, it's to lending a kid books when you are confident the parents would object to you lending those books to their child.
Exactly, thank you. Additionally, when I let my own children go to a friend's house, it suggests that I trust those people with my child. I am telling her-it is ok to go with these people. Let's not pretend that at 12 yo, that other parent is not, at that time, in a position of authority. Shame on anybody who abuses that trust.

It seems that everyone is cool with this because they don't object to the books Dangerosa is sharing. I don't find To Kill a Mockingbird objectionable myself. Would your opinion change if she was saying, oh, I don't know something like-"Ha, condoms are stupid, they take all the fun out of sex." Or maybe, "Oh, you poor child of Hindu parents, your parents are SO unreasonable, here, have a piece of sausage, its delish!"

I am not sure how anyone takes a 12 yo somewhere without their parents knowledge and consent. But if someone did, the proper response is "Hey, asshole, I don't take my kid there because I don't want her there. Mind your business, and quit trying to indoctrinate my kid with your crap." Then you don't let your child go out with them again. Easy.
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  #34  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:41 AM
twickster twickster is offline
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Mod note

Since this has turned from a report of one person's experience to a discussion of the pros and cons of her activities, I'm moving this to IMHO, our advice and opinions forum.

twickster, MPSIMS moderator
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  #35  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:01 PM
Voyager Voyager is offline
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My daughter also got invited to a church for fun and games, and went to a bunch of Mormon dances. No problems - she thought they were all nuts. You can be sure that any time a church gets someone in their doors it is time for indoctrination - that is what they do. I'm proud that she is good enough at critical thinking for the glurge to run off her.

As for books - Girl with the Dragon Tattoo might be a bit much, but TKAM is taught in high school. My parents never monitored what I took from the library. At 12 kids are old enough to read anything age appropriate without parental mind control.
TKAM was on the recently published top ten banned books list, by the way. I bet no atheists were trying to ban it. Whether or not parents own a kid, intellectual shackles are not much better than physical ones.
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  #36  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:14 PM
PandaBear77 PandaBear77 is offline
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What OldnCrinkly said.

I'm all about encouraging kids to read, but if you have any reason to think a book would be objectionable, you should ask the kid's parents first. Ditto for movies. It's just common courtesy.

It sounds like your kid and her friend are both smart and enjoying learning from each other. Don't ruin it.
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  #37  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:19 PM
Kimmy_Gibbler Kimmy_Gibbler is offline
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It sounds like your kid and her friend are both smart and enjoying learning from each other.
Indeed. Perhaps there's even a lesson for Mom in all this.
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  #38  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:20 PM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Two wrongs don't make a right.
She's doing nothing wrong. She's doing a wonderful thing for a child and should be applauded for it. Good for you, Dangerosa. This is a great thing to do, and this girl may be really grateful to you one day.

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Originally Posted by raspberry hunter View Post
I'm a little horrified at how many people are saying it's a horrible thing to lend a kid books.
So am I, and not just because the site motto here is Fighting Ignorance. The parents want to limit their daughter's exposure to literature and the world; she wants to go beyond their small-minded grasp and Dangerosa is helping. It's a good thing to do, and the "gasp! ulterior motives!" stuff is nonsense.
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  #39  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:28 PM
Kimmy_Gibbler Kimmy_Gibbler is offline
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It's a good thing to do, and the "gasp! ulterior motives!" stuff is nonsense.
I wonder why the OP can't say, "Hey, Judy, I have a copy of this book that I think Madelyn will love—To Kill a Mockingbird. It was one of my favorites when I was her age."

We have no basis to suppose that this gift will be nixed. I dare say considering that the child's mother has allowed her other books such as The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and the Harry Potter series, we can probably surmise that it won't be a problem at all.

I understand that this doesn't have the drama-llama vibe of cloak and dagger samizdat trading, but it will enable the OP to take the high road and accomplish what we hope is her objective: broadening her daughter's friend's exposure to literature and not scoring points against a parent who anyway has hitherto shown no tendency unreasonably to restrict her daughter's reading material.
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:50 PM
raspberry hunter raspberry hunter is offline
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Is there actually proof that the parents would definitely find To Kill a Mockingbird objectionable?

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Originally Posted by OldnCrinkly View Post
It seems that everyone is cool with this because they don't object to the books Dangerosa is sharing. I don't find To Kill a Mockingbird objectionable myself. Would your opinion change if she was saying, oh, I don't know something like-"Ha, condoms are stupid, they take all the fun out of sex." Or maybe, "Oh, you poor child of Hindu parents, your parents are SO unreasonable, here, have a piece of sausage, its delish!"
Hm. Noooo... I don't think that's why I'm cool with it. I'm cool with it because they are books, and because books were so important to me in widening my worldview. While yes, I would not like it if someone said those things to my child, my opinion would not change if someone lent my kid a book that said "Ha, condoms are stupid!" (...in point of fact, I remember reading way too many of those as an adolescent) or one that said "Mormons are stoopid!" (I'm Mormon, for the record, so it would certainly bother me, very much, if Dangerosa said such a thing to my child.) I guess because I think I would have to trust my child at that point, as my parents had to trust me, that she could read a wide variety of books and figure things out. I mean, my God, I was reading Sweet Valley High at that age! Talk about objectionable!

And, heh. It's interesting the book was To Kill a Mockingbird, because as a matter of fact, I did not lend one of my friend's children that book (I lent him a lot of other books, and bought him some too) because my friend, who is extremely conservative about some things, knew rape was featured prominently in it and was worried about it. I represented to him in the strongest terms that there was nothing explicit, and nothing he should be in the least worried about even by his extreme conservative standards, but I also didn't loan his kid the book.

So, yeah, I guess I have to come down on the side of "don't lend kids things if their parents have specifically requested them not to read it," but that doesn't happen all that often in my experience, and I also come down on the side of "if I suspect that if the parents read this book carefully, which they're not going to do, and actually got all the nuances, that they might not 100% approve of it, I'm still gonna give the book to the kid."

Last edited by raspberry hunter; 04-13-2012 at 12:54 PM..
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  #41  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:59 PM
Telemark Telemark is offline
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Originally Posted by Marley23 View Post
The parents want to limit their daughter's exposure to literature and the world; she wants to go beyond their small-minded grasp and Dangerosa is helping. It's a good thing to do, and the "gasp! ulterior motives!" stuff is nonsense.
I'm not a parent, but if I was I wouldn't want other parents usurping my authority like that. It seems to me that it's a short leap from this to a Baptist parent telling a Jewish kid that he was going to hell for not believing in Jesus.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:02 PM
OldnCrinkly OldnCrinkly is offline
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Originally Posted by Marley23 View Post
She's doing nothing wrong. She's doing a wonderful thing for a child and should be applauded for it. Good for you, Dangerosa. This is a great thing to do, and this girl may be really grateful to you one day.


(snip) The parents want to limit their daughter's exposure to literature and the world; she wants to go beyond their small-minded grasp and Dangerosa is helping. It's a good thing to do, and the "gasp! ulterior motives!" stuff is nonsense.
The girl is 12, the parents absolutely have a right, no, an obligation to limit this CHILDS exposure to the world. If they feel some literature is off limits, so be it. That is THEIR call to make, not Dangerosa's. or yours, or mine. Would you mind if someone gave your 12 yo son "literature" on how wonderful and glorious it is to be a suicide bomber, behind your back, with a promise that he was free to come to them with any questions, but don't worry about telling you? Unlikely. Just because you or I do not find Dangerosa's offerings objectionable does not mean the girl's parents can't.

But more importantly, it is just 100% not right to encourage a 12 yo (twelve, not even a teenager) to keep secrets and hide things from their parents. Ever. Other kids may do that, but their parents,(!?!) that's shameful. That is my main problem with this. Religion is just the side issue.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:06 PM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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I'm not a parent, but if I was I wouldn't want other parents usurping my authority like that.
I'm not a parent either, but what you are describing is not a usurpation of authority. If anybody's usurpring the authority of the parents, it's the daughter. Once she's decided to read the books, she's going to read them. Where they come from is a detail. But I'll admit that maybe I read the bit about the mother being "upset" the daughter read Girl With the Dragon Tattoo the wrong way. I thought it meant the book was forbidden; maybe it doesn't. Would you mind clearing that up, Dangerosa?

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Originally Posted by OldnCrinkly View Post
Would you mind if someone gave your 12 yo son "literature" on how wonderful and glorious it is to be a suicide bomber, behind your back
Oh please.

Quote:
But more importantly, it is just 100% not right to encourage a 12 yo (twelve, not even a teenager) to keep secrets and hide things from their parents. Ever.
Dangerosa has said nothing about encouraging the daughter to keep the books a secret.

Last edited by Marley23; 04-13-2012 at 01:08 PM..
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:14 PM
OldnCrinkly OldnCrinkly is offline
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(Quote from Marley)-Oh please.


Right, so, since YOU don't find what she is sharing objectionable, they have no right to?

Last edited by OldnCrinkly; 04-13-2012 at 01:16 PM.. Reason: messed up the quoting
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  #45  
Old 04-13-2012, 01:16 PM
Telemark Telemark is offline
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I'm not a parent either, but what you are describing is not a usurpation of authority. If anybody's usurpring the authority of the parents, it's the daughter.
Strongly disagree. At 12 years old it most certainly is the parent's authority. You might not agree with their choices, but at that age they certainly still have parental authority to do as they see fit.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:20 PM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Originally Posted by OldnCrinkly View Post
Right, so, since YOU don't find what she is sharing objectionable, they have no right to?
I don't think you can use the dubious smiley after comparing To Kill A Mockingbird to literature that encourages suicide bombing.

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Strongly disagree. At 12 years old it most certainly is the parent's authority.
I was taking issue with your use of the word "usurp." Nobody is supplanting the girl's parents. Their authority (if they have laid down the law on this topic) is being thwarted, maybe, but not usurped. And like I said, if all of this is the case, it's the child who made the decision to ignore her parents' dictates on reading material.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:23 PM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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I don't think 12-yr old children should be used as ammunition in this manner.
Bingo. They deserve better than being pawns in a grownup's game.
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  #48  
Old 04-13-2012, 01:29 PM
rsat3acr rsat3acr is offline
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raspberry hunter how can you be an agnostic Christian? You don't know is there is a God but you believe in one? Or is it more like You don't know about God but Know Jesus was a historical person, just not devine? Just wondering. I personally am agnostic since I've never seen any either for against a God I just don't take diesm or atheism on faith.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Bingo. They deserve better than being pawns in a grownup's game.
Absolutely. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with the parents. It doesn't matter it the child doesn't agree with her parents (few do). But keep your nose out of their business. If you don't like what they are exposing your child to then do something about it. Tit for tat doesn't make it right.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:42 PM
raspberry hunter raspberry hunter is offline
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Sorry, rsat3acr, I was being sloppy and conflating two definitions of Christianity. I go to church every week and am active in my church, performing what we call "callings" more-or-less faithfully and being active in my church community. In that way I consider myself a Christian. I also believe that hope is a basis for faith. However, I am aware that most Christians would not consider me a true Christian, given that I cannot actually say that I believe any of the stuff in, say, the Creeds (I can't say I don't believe it either, mind you).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldnCrinkly View Post
But more importantly, it is just 100% not right to encourage a 12 yo (twelve, not even a teenager) to keep secrets and hide things from their parents. Ever. Other kids may do that, but their parents,(!?!) that's shameful. That is my main problem with this. Religion is just the side issue.
I agree with this; however, I do not see any evidence that this is what's happening in the OP. When I lent books to my friend's child, I a) never lent anything to him that my friend had a problem with, such as Mockingbird, even when I thought his concerns were, quite frankly, silly, and based on never having actually read the book; and b) my friend's son was always free to talk to his parents about what he was reading; I never asked him to hide or keep secrets. I assume Dangerosa is operating under similar principles, though I may be projecting. Now, her kid's friend's parents, on the other hand...
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