Rank the worst nations in the world.

[R. P. McMurphy]

Maybe this should be in IMHO so if the mods want to move it, fine with me.

My list, in order.

1.) North Korea - nothing is right there.

2.) Syria - the insurrection pushes it to the #2 spot.

3.) Cuba - a farcical dictatorship based on a system that does not work.

4.) Iran - Religion and egomania are a bad mix.

5.) Pakistan - Maybe the most dangerous country on earth.

6T.) Afghanistan - No good way out of this mess. The Taliban is part of the culture.

6T.) Iraq - A powder-keg.

8.) Haiti - Can they ever have a functioning government that is not an oppressive, violent dictatorship?

9.) Mexico - Should be a good country but they can't find a way out of the drug war mess. 50k lives lost in that war.

10.) Somalia - pirates

11.) Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) - In better condition than it has been in a long time but still very unstable and violent. Lack of central control and corruption allow this county rich in natural resources to remain poor.


Those are my top candidates and I could go on. Feel free to comment or disagree. I've probably forgotten some. If you want to add to the list go as deep as you want.

[Simplicio]

I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a measure that put Mexico as worse then Somalia. Or the DRC as better then at least half the countries on your list. The DRC is literally the poorest country in the world.

[Simplicio]

Here's a comparison of GDP per capita for the DRC and Cuba. Here's life expectancy, child mortality rate.

No rational person would prefer to live in the DRC over Cuba.

[simple homer]

I have visited Cuba 5 times, and it is not that bad a place.
All of the people that I met were educated, housed and fed.
They may not have the same freedoms as in other countries, but I am sure
there are many worse places in the world.

[Oldeb]

Mexico? Mexico shouldn't even be in the bottom 100. Cuba also isn't close to it. The worst two in the Americas, El Salvador and Haiti, are still leaps and bounds above many African nations.

Iran is also practically a paradise compared to places like the DRC or Rwanda.

Here's a list of countries by Human Development Index rating. The 10 worst are not going to be the 10 lowest, but they're going to be near the bottom.

[GIGObuster]

I mentioned the index of Failed Estates from Foreign Policy Magazine and the Fund For Peace before, posters on the right have recommended that Magazine before, and I think they have one of the best balanced methodologies to identify what are the worst:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...aq_methodology

Q: What are the 12 indicators of state vulnerability?

A: The 12 indicators are: Demographic Pressures, Refugees/IDPs, Group Grievance, Human Flight, Uneven Development, Economic Decline, Delegitimization of the State, Public Services, Human Rights, Security Apparatus, Factionalized Elites, and External Intervention. Click here for more information.

Each indicator is investigated and given a mark from 1 to 10 (with 1 as being the best and 10 for worst) and then the totals added.

The worst 12 that made it in the 2011 list? (Starting with the worst higher scorers)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...p_and_rankings


1 Somalia 113.4
2 Chad 110.3
3 Sudan 108.7
4 Democratic Republic of the Congo 108.2
5 Haiti 108.0
6 Zimbabwe 107.2
7 Afghanistan 107.5
8 Central African Republic 105.0
9 Iraq 104.8
10 Côte d'Ivoire 102.8
11 Guinea 102.5
12 Pakistan 102.3

[PrettyVacant]

Right, like the USA isn't up there on the list for most people around the world.

[Molesworth 2]

Originally Posted by simple homer

I have visited Cuba 5 times, and it is not that bad a place.
All of the people that I met were educated, housed and fed.
They may not have the same freedoms as in other countries, but I am sure
there are many worse places in the world.

Exactly right.

I really don't understand why the US has such a fascination with Cuba. Mind you, I also didn't understand why the US had a similarly bizarre fixation on Venezuela (which I fully expected to see on this list) a few years back.

I get that you Americans really hate Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. I just don't understand why. What has Cuba or Venezuela ever done to you to make you hate them, exactly?

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by Oldeb

Here's a list of countries by Human Development Index rating.

Not really related to the OP, but it looks like you could basically split that list like so:

0.85+       Modern Nation
0.65-0.84   Generally functional
0.45-0.64   Problematic
0.44-       Very Not Good

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by PrettyVacant

Right, like the USA isn't up there on the list for most people around the world.

Not sure about that. I mean, I really don't like the US as a government/hegemon (a lot), but I wouldn't put it at anywhere near "worst in the world" on anything other than militarism/aggression. Even the things I think make the US bad, like politically-entwined religion and widespread class inequity, pale beside the worst countries in those areas.

[Rune]

Cuba, Iran & Mexico should off the list. Mauritania, Yemen, Zimbabwe should on. Perhaps also some of the small Pacific islands that are being flooded. And of course Sweden. Goes without saying. Feminist fascist tyranny.

[MrDibble]

And to answer the OP, it's very difficult without adequate criteria. For instance, I might think Japan and Norway are the worst countries in the world because all I care about is whales. But if the criterion is "all-round worst" neither of those two get a look-in.

The OP looks to be a list of "shitpits I would not want to live in", in which case Cuba definitely has to come off, Swaziland & Zimbabwe & Sudan and possibly Lesotho have to be on and Somalia should rank second (at best). Palestine should also be considered.

Also Iran isn't that bad, certainly not top-10 bad, especially if you're not American - I have friends who love the place. It's certainly better than, oh, Turkmenistan, to pick a random regional example.

[guizot]

Originally Posted by Molesworth 2

I really don't understand why the US has such a fascination with Cuba. . . .What has Cuba or Venezuela ever done to you to make you hate them, exactly?

Cuba took our rum factory.

Seriously, what I don't understand is the blind U.S. ideology of number-oneism, for which making lists of "worst" nations that one has never even been to is such a useful too.

[jinty]

The OP's list is pretty much "The Top 11 Countries the US Media Obsesses About", plus a majority of them are ones the US has either been at war with during the last 100 years, or has tried to fuck with via the CIA. Funny that.
Only one country from the Horn of Africa? And that's because of "pirates"?

[erislover]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

9.) Mexico - Should be a good country but they can't find a way out of the drug war mess. 50k lives lost in that war.

Wow, way to blame the victim.

[Alka Seltzer]

Originally Posted by Rune

And of course Sweden. Goes without saying. Feminist fascist tyranny.

Yeah, and their chef talks funny too.

[Death of Rats]

Did anyone else look at his rationiel for Iran:

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

4.) Iran - Religion and egomania are a bad mix.

and then look at the current Republican party and giggle a bit?

[Evil Captor]

Originally Posted by Molesworth 2

Exactly right.

I really don't understand why the US has such a fascination with Cuba. Mind you, I also didn't understand why the US had a similarly bizarre fixation on Venezuela (which I fully expected to see on this list) a few years back.

I get that you Americans really hate Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. I just don't understand why. What has Cuba or Venezuela ever done to you to make you hate them, exactly?

The United States as a whole does not hate either group. In America former Batista cronies influence the Cuban community, who have a lot of swing with Republican politicians, as they are about the only minority group that is conservative politically. The hatred of Cuba is an easy political sop to toss the Cubans, and something the right is ideologically prone to do, as they have a long history of hating Communist governments irrationally.

I'm not so sure about Venezuela, except that it's in the Americas, is left wing/socialist/Commie and does not do a suffiiciently fastidious job of licking Uncle Sam's boots to suit the conseratives here.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

1 Somalia 113.4
2 Chad 110.3
3 Sudan 108.7
4 Democratic Republic of the Congo 108.2
5 Haiti 108.0
6 Zimbabwe 107.2
7 Afghanistan 107.5
8 Central African Republic 105.0
9 Iraq 104.8
10 Côte d'Ivoire 102.8
11 Guinea 102.5
12 Pakistan 102.3

We're #10! - although I did spy a Mercedes S500 AMG in the parking lot a few days back. Even Kleptocrats have to drive something I guess.

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by Molesworth 2

I get that you Americans really hate Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. I just don't understand why. What has Cuba or Venezuela ever done to you to make you hate them, exactly?

It's sort of a feedback loop. Some Americans don't like them because of their politics, so they speak out against America; this causes more Americans to dislike them, and so on, and so on.

[Ulfreida]

Originally Posted by Molesworth 2

Exactly right.

I really don't understand why the US has such a fascination with Cuba. Mind you, I also didn't understand why the US had a similarly bizarre fixation on Venezuela (which I fully expected to see on this list) a few years back.

I get that you Americans really hate Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. I just don't understand why. What has Cuba or Venezuela ever done to you to make you hate them, exactly?

They hate our freedoms, so we have to hate them back.

[ITR champion]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

Those are my top candidates and I could go on. Feel free to comment or disagree. I've probably forgotten some. If you want to add to the list go as deep as you want.

As others have said, it depends highly on your criteria. Cuba and Iran basically draw a zero for press freedom, religious freedom, and freedom of speech, as would Saudi Arabia and several other Arab countries. On the other hand, those countries have less mass starvation and epidemics then some of the poorest places, such as Eritrea and Zimbabwe.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Molesworth 2

Exactly right.

I really don't understand why the US has such a fascination with Cuba. Mind you, I also didn't understand why the US had a similarly bizarre fixation on Venezuela (which I fully expected to see on this list) a few years back.

I get that you Americans really hate Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. I just don't understand why. What has Cuba or Venezuela ever done to you to make you hate them, exactly?

The hate for Castro is that he nationalized US property in Cuba (ignoring the cozy relationship with the USSR as it is no longer an issue). The hate for Chavez is that he likes Castro.

But really, "hate" is the result of a very vocal ex-Cuban lobbying group that influences American thought and policy wrt Cuba. Most educated, thoughtful people don't "hate" Cuba any more than they "hate" other one-party, totalitarian states. At least Cuba does't starve its people to death routinely. One could do much worse than live in Cuba, even though one could do much better, too.

[Anne Neville]

No Sudan or South Sudan? There are ongoing conflicts there.

No Mali? The Tuareg insurgency doesn't make it a bad place to be?

No Libya? They're still dealing with the aftermath of a civil war.

No Zimbabwe? Recent 10¹⁰⁸% inflation (really) doesn't qualify?

No Burma/Myanmar?

[Skammer]

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

The worst 12 that made it in the 2011 list? (Starting with the worst higher scorers)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...p_and_rankings


1 Somalia 113.4
2 Chad 110.3
3 Sudan 108.7
4 Democratic Republic of the Congo 108.2
5 Haiti 108.0
6 Zimbabwe 107.2
7 Afghanistan 107.5
8 Central African Republic 105.0
9 Iraq 104.8
10 Côte d'Ivoire 102.8
11 Guinea 102.5
12 Pakistan 102.3

This is a pretty good list, although I'm curious that North Korea is all the way down at 22. Looking at the chart, it looks like their ranking is helped by low numbers for "Refugees/IDPs" and "Human Flight." Which is of course only because their borders are so tightly closed.

[Mr. Excellent]

I'm a huge believer in the important of speech/political freedoms, but even I would be hard-pressed to say that low scores in those categories earn you a place on the "worst places to live" list. I mean, so long as you're apolitical, there are many, many places in China that Westerners work very hard to live in. Say what you will about Shanghai, the idea that it belongs in the same categoy as Port-Au-Prince is kind of laughable. It's far, far more comparable to NYC.

[R. P. McMurphy]

Without quotes:

I've been to Cuba twice (legally) on humanitarian missions. It is one screwed up country. The people are desparate, repressed and are victims of a total dicatatorship. They have lost a generation of potentially good, hard working people that were given no chance of obtaining a good life unless they were sycophants for the dictator. There is medical care but there are not enough supplies for anyone other that the party members. If you are not productive to the state you are on your own. Anyone with a terminal illness is allowed to die ASAP. Hadicapped children are just a burden to the state.

Havana, once a beautiful city, is a wreck.. If you go into the villages the people are in misery and will communicate their sense of loss and desperation.

There is a huge prison population because the government is so oppressive. Everybody lives scared. There are government spies everywhere.

The ecomomy is a shambles. You cannot survive unless you deal on the black market.

I can go on and on. Not everything is bad about Cuba but it is inherently a mess. Don't begin to tell me how Cuba is a good place.


As for Mexico, being on the list was all about the drug war. I realize that the US is fueling it by trading guns for drugs. Still, the war rages and is working itself deeper into the rural area. Now, it is spreading to other countries in Central America.

Don't tell me how Haiti is better than Africa. It might be better than some countries in Africa but, on par, it is worse off. As one person versed on both areas told me, "At least in Africa they have radios, in Haiti they have nothing." The earthquake ravished whatever there was there. I've been there since. I'ts a mess. The corruption, tthe abject poverty, the voodoo, the ruined infrastructure, the inability of the government to function on the most basic levels is really disheartening.

I admit that my list is open to argument. That's why I invited debate. There is a lot that is subjective. I understand that.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by Skammer

This is a pretty good list, although I'm curious that North Korea is all the way down at 22. Looking at the chart, it looks like their ranking is helped by low numbers for "Refugees/IDPs" and "Human Flight." Which is of course only because their borders are so tightly closed.

I suspect one of the unspoken criteria is how much trouble they cause their neighbors. South Korea isn't too wild about the north, but China isn't threatened. Plus, North Korea starves its people quietly, without a lot of muss and fuss. They get some bonus points for that!

[Oldeb]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

I've been to Cuba twice (legally) on humanitarian missions.

I think you're placing too much weight on your personal experiences. As bad as Cuba was, it's a lot better than what other people have. Compare Cuba to the USA or any other modern nation and yeah, it sucks. Compare it to other nations and you'll find people who'd kill to live there. Nobody's telling you it's a "good place," but on a world-wide scale it's a far cry from the bottom of the pile.

There is medical care but there are not enough supplies for anyone other that the party members. If you are not productive to the state you are on your own. Anyone with a terminal illness is allowed to die ASAP. Hadicapped children are just a burden to the state.

The average life expectancy in Cuba is exactly the same as it is in the US (and Denmark), 78.3 years.

Don't tell me how Haiti is better than Africa. It might be better than some countries in Africa but, on par, it is worse off. As one person versed on both areas told me, "At least in Africa they have radios, in Haiti they have nothing." The earthquake ravished whatever there was there. I've been there since. I'ts a mess. The corruption, tthe abject poverty, the voodoo, the ruined infrastructure, the inability of the government to function on the most basic levels is really disheartening.

Haiti is fucking terrible, of course that's not up for debate. And obviously there are nations in Africa who are much, much better off than they are. It's an entire continent. But you can do a lot worse than live in Haiti. Almost four times as many people died in the Rwandan Genocide as in the Haiti earthquake. There are 55 nations with a lower average life expectancy. And depending on where in the world you're from it could even be considered wealthy. Going by GDP, there are either 56 poorer nations (World Bank listing) or 53 poorer nations (CIA factbook)

It's very hard for those of us from modern, wealthy nations to grasp just how much better off we are compared to others.

[cckerberos]

Originally Posted by Boyo Jim

I suspect one of the unspoken criteria is how much trouble they cause their neighbors. South Korea isn't too wild about the north, but China isn't threatened. Plus, North Korea starves its people quietly, without a lot of muss and fuss. They get some bonus points for that!

A key point is that it's a failed state index, which is a little different than a quality of living index. As they note further along in their explanation, "One of the most common [attributes of a failed state] is the loss of physical control of its territory or a monopoly on the legitimate use of force." North Korea's doing pretty well on that front.

[Cicero]

Anything in Africa apart from RSA.

And NZ have a shit cricket team so obviously it is horrible.

[JustinC]

My own top ten wurst countries;

1. Scotland - Home of the full Scottish breakfast (including black pudding) and the best back on Earth
-2. America - Smoked heaven
-2. UK - Home of pork scratchings and crackling to die for
-2. Italy - The King of pancetta (seasoned belly)
-2. Spain - Bacon tapas, with wine
-2. Hungary - SZALONNA on an open pit
-2. Korea - Samgyeopsal (grilled at the table with lettuce, sliced raw garlic, perilla leaves, sliced green chili peppers, shredded green onions, sliced raw onions, aged kimchi, mushrooms)
8. Bahrain - flakes of bacon toppings available in some restaurants
9. Kuwait - bacon only available on the black market, and for 100KD per kilo
10. Saudi - the home of bacon-possession-capital-punishment

[PrettyVacant]

Originally Posted by MrDibble

Not sure about that. I mean, I really don't like the US as a government/hegemon (a lot), but I wouldn't put it at anywhere near "worst in the world" on anything other than militarism/aggression. Even the things I think make the US bad, like politically-entwined religion and widespread class inequity, pale beside the worst countries in those areas.

How many on these 'top 10' lists engage in state-sanctioned torture?
How many engage in kidnapp and indefinite detention without recourse to a civilian legal systyem?
How many have invaded other countries in the past decade?
How many have killed hundrerds of thousands of children and women in countries they have invaded?
Why would a single country want to spend almost 50% of the worlds entire military budget, or 20% of it's own GDP - in what world does that possibly make sense?
Why would a country imprison or have on parole more than 3% of its population?

Given the near absense now of election paper trails and what people have to do to get on a nomination ticket, the USA isn't even a functioning democracy.

Add in political fundamentalism and the influence of Israel, and the USA is really fucking scary to most of the world.

[even sven]

I don't think there is any way to do this, because it's going to really depend on who you are. I adored ZImbabwe- travel was easy and safe, Harare is beautiful....leafy and full of gorgeous houses, and infrastructure was good, with decent roads, supermarkets and ATMs everywhere. From my perspective, it was a nice laid back place with friendly people.

But if I were a political activist? Yeah, not a great place.

[Ken001]

Originally Posted by R. P. McMurphy

Maybe this should be in IMHO so if the mods want to move it, fine with me.

My list, in order.

1.) North Korea - nothing is right there..

5.) Pakistan - Maybe the most dangerous country on earth.

6T.) Afghanistan - No good way out of this mess. The Taliban is part of the culture.

8.) Haiti - Can they ever have a functioning government that is not an oppressive, violent dictatorship?

10.) Somalia - pirates

11.) Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) - In better condition than it has been in a long time but still very unstable and violent. Lack of central control and corruption allow this county rich in natural resources to remain poor.

Ok I removed Syria, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, and Mexico. I could give reasons but others have eloquently said it better. For example Iran is Persia - intellectuals with a strong civilisation and deep sense of history. These are not "ragheads" in the common idiom.

Thoughts:

1. What is the purpose of such a list?
2. What can we learn from such a list?
3. Why is the originating list Ameroc-centric ie. nations which appear in American news?

As Cicero so incisively said above, most of Africa would fill the top 10 with countries to spare.

And New Zealand does indeed have a loathsome insectile cricket team (apart from Daniel Vitorri) so it should be on the list too. Happily we have the All Blacks.

[Cicero]

The All Blacks are another good reason for any other rugby playing nation to not like NZ.

Apart from that, I think it would be a great place to live.

[magellan01]

Originally Posted by PrettyVacant

How many on these 'top 10' lists engage in state-sanctioned torture?
How many engage in kidnapp and indefinite detention without recourse to a civilian legal systyem?
How many have invaded other countries in the past decade?
How many have killed hundrerds of thousands of children and women in countries they have invaded?
Why would a single country want to spend almost 50% of the worlds entire military budget, or 20% of it's own GDP - in what world does that possibly make sense?
Why would a country imprison or have on parole more than 3% of its population?

Given the near absense now of election paper trails and what people have to do to get on a nomination ticket, the USA isn't even a functioning democracy.

Add in political fundamentalism and the influence of Israel, and the USA is really fucking scary to most of the world.

I thought you were kidding with your first post. To compare the U.S. to places like Haiti, North Korea and any of the African and Middle Eastern nations mentioned is laughable.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by Oldeb

I think you're placing too much weight on your personal experiences. As bad as Cuba was, it's a lot better than what other people have. Compare Cuba to the USA or any other modern nation and yeah, it sucks. Compare it to other nations and you'll find people who'd kill to live there. Nobody's telling you it's a "good place," but on a world-wide scale it's a far cry from the bottom of the pile.

The average life expectancy in Cuba is exactly the same as it is in the US (and Denmark), 78.3 years.

Haiti is fucking terrible, of course that's not up for debate. And obviously there are nations in Africa who are much, much better off than they are. It's an entire continent. But you can do a lot worse than live in Haiti. Almost four times as many people died in the Rwandan Genocide as in the Haiti earthquake. There are 55 nations with a lower average life expectancy. And depending on where in the world you're from it could even be considered wealthy. Going by GDP, there are either 56 poorer nations (World Bank listing) or 53 poorer nations (CIA factbook)

It's very hard for those of us from modern, wealthy nations to grasp just how much better off we are compared to others.

I mostly agree with what you're saying here, but I'd point out that GDP per capita is a terrible, terrible way to assess quality-of-life in a given country. It's very easy to have a lot of wealth concentrated in small elites, and thus drive up per-capita GDP, while most folks still live in really appalling conditions. Equatorial Guinea, for example has a per-capita GDP of $19,300, per the CIA world factbook - that would place it in 65th place globally, between Hungary and Lithuania. Also above Croatia and Argentina.

I promise you, no sane Lithuianian, Croatian or Argentinian would *ever* be willing to move to EG. It's a brutal, kleptocratic petrostate - lots of money, but the people never see it.

A much better tool than GDP per capita is the UNDP's human development index, which measures things like access to sanitation, roads, health care, education - the things that actually make life less than awful. http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

[Oldeb]

Originally Posted by Mr. Excellent

A much better tool than GDP per capita is the UNDP's human development index, which measures things like access to sanitation, roads, health care, education - the things that actually make life less than awful. http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Actually that's the one I prefer to use too. I linked to a list of countries ranked by it in post 5.
Using that listing Haiti still doesn't make the bottom 25 countries.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by PrettyVacant

How many on these 'top 10' lists engage in state-sanctioned torture?

You're using the present tense there where I don't think it's still applicable.

How many engage in kidnapp and indefinite detention without recourse to a civilian legal systyem?

Lots of countries do this - extra-legally, of course, or within some provisional clause in their law or other. But people have been rendered from lots of First World countries to the US.

How many have invaded other countries in the past decade?

Og "top 10" countries, at least all of: United Kingdom , Australia, , Denmark, South Korea, Japan

How many have killed hundrerds of thousands of children and women in countries they have invaded?

All those ones I listed had a hand in this, especially the UK.

Why would a single country want to spend almost 50% of the worlds entire military budget, or 20% of it's own GDP - in what world does that possibly make sense?

I'm not saying it makes sense, but the world where the benefits of that military might outweigh the costs - the world of empire, obviously. But then, would you have considerd Rome to be one of the "worst nations in the world" in 100 A.D.?

Why would a country imprison or have on parole more than 3% of its population?

Racism and the stupid War on Drugs, combined.

Given the near absense now of election paper trails and what people have to do to get on a nomination ticket, the USA isn't even a functioning democracy.

That's just wrong.

Add in political fundamentalism and the influence of Israel, and the USA is really fucking scary to most of the world.

Not to me. Especially since I think the "influence of Israel" argument is bullshit. So you really don't speak for "the rest of the world", only those who believe in ZOG.

[Evil Captor]

Originally Posted by magellan01

I thought you were kidding with your first post. To compare the U.S. to places like Haiti, North Korea and any of the African and Middle Eastern nations mentioned is laughable.

Perhaps not a direct comparison, but there's do denying that Bush II pushed the U.S. a long way in that general direction.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by Evil Captor

Perhaps not a direct comparison, but there's do denying that Bush II pushed the U.S. a long way in that general direction.

More of a gentle nudge, really. "A long way" really isn't the case when you look at what a really bad country can be like. The US would have to get a lot worse before it comes even close.

I can't believe I'm having to defend the US. Me! I feel dirty.

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

1. North Korea-Real-life Orwellian dictatorship
2. Somalia-Anarchy, warlords, theocrats, pirates. 'Nuff said
3. DRC-Another anarchy, victim of the "African World War"
4. Afghanistan-Epicenter of Taliban and Al-Qaeda
5. Pakistan-Another epicenter of Islamists
6. Saudi Arabia-Ultra-reactionary theocratic hellhole
7. Zimbabwe-Weimar-in-Africa: Rampant inflation, armed mobs expropriating ethnic minorities, populist dictator with a toothbrush moustache...
8. Sudan-Genocidal dictatorship
9. Syria-Currently undergoing civil war
10. Mali-Ultra-poor, landlocked, again undergoing civil war

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by even sven

I don't think there is any way to do this, because it's going to really depend on who you are. I adored ZImbabwe- travel was easy and safe

But not a great place if you, say, had your retirement savings in your bank account in Zimbabwean dollars. A foreign traveler to Zimbabwe might not be affected much by inflation, but it's a very different story for a local.

Who are we writing this ranking for, anyway? It seems the list might look rather different for a tourist, a more-or-less average Joe who wants to work a steady job, raise a couple of kids, and eventually be able to retire, a woman wanting more or less the same as the aforementioned average Joe, a member of an ethnic, religious, or non-religious minority, or someone who wants to criticize the government.

[Boyo Jim]

True, for a feral child raised by wolves, Haiti could be paradise.

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by Boyo Jim

True, for a feral child raised by wolves, Haiti could be paradise.

I'm sure Labadee is quite nice. It's in Haiti.

I went to China a few years ago. It was nice, other than the air pollution. But I don't think I'd want to live there if I were a member of Falun Gong or if I were interested in criticizing the government. I was a foreigner who was neither, so I had no problems. You can't infer from that that everyone's experience of being in China is problem-free.

[even sven]

Originally Posted by Anne Neville

But not a great place if you, say, had your retirement savings in your bank account in Zimbabwean dollars. A foreign traveler to Zimbabwe might not be affected much by inflation, but it's a very different story for a local.

That's pretty much my point. If you are creating a "bottom 10" list from the point of view of a middle class person, things like appropriating property from the middle class and hyperinflation (Cuba, Zimbabwe before dollarization, etc.) are going to bump a country up pretty high. If you are writing from the point of view of the dirt poor, you are probably mostly concerned about disease burden and life expectancy. If you are writing as a political activist, otherwise pleasant places such as SIngapore are going to make the list.

South Africa is by far the most prosperous country in SSA, but for the very poor the violence and disease burden is much worse than living a modest but relatively safe life as a villager in a much poorer country.

So I really don't think it's even possible to picture a single complete list.

As for America, in some ways everyone on the planet lives with America, even if they are not actually in it. One of the reasons why the US is a fairly safe and prosperous place is that we have the capability to move violence, pollution, etc. in to other countries. I think it's far from the worst place in the world, but if I were being bombed and my country's social institutions were being gutted by US-backed development policy, I might feel differently.

[purplehorseshoe]

Originally Posted by jinty

The OP's list is pretty much "The Top 11 Countries the US Media Obsesses About" ...

Yeah. Unfortunately, a "real" list of the worst countries in the world is probably going to involve countries your average Joe Murrikan has never heard of. And we can't have that, now can we?

[jayjay]

I see PrettyVacant is playing the part of Der Trihs this week...

[PrettyVacant]

Originally Posted by jayjay

I see PrettyVacant is playing the part of Der Trihs this week...

Have you ironed your flags yet today?