Israel/Palestine: "One-state solution" on the table again?

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Isreal, the Republic of Gaza and the Republic of the West Bank.

Is there a particular desire for Gaza held by the Palestinians? Merely because they are already there, or is there some religious significance as in Jerusalem?

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Is there a particular desire for Gaza held by the Palestinians? Merely because they are already there, or is there some religious significance as in Jerusalem?

It would be really difficult to move all those rocket launchers!

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by John Mace

It would be really difficult to move all those rocket launchers!

Ah.

[sqweels]

Originally Posted by Alessan

Right. They'd refuse to take it even to grant it independence.

I would presume that Egypt's and Jordan's renunciations of said territorial claims are in favor of Palestinian independence.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Is there a particular desire for Gaza held by the Palestinians? Merely because they are already there, or is there some religious significance as in Jerusalem?

I think it's just their home; there are no Islamic holy cities in the Gaza Strip.

The Gaza Strip, BTW, is the same land that was known once as "Philistia" or the "Pentapolis", the land of the five cities of the Philistines. I suppose the people living there now might be the lineal descendants of the culturally long-vanished Philistines -- among many other nationalities of ancestors, of course.

[BrainGlutton]

Bear in mind, also:

Despite various wars and exoduses, roughly one half of the world's Palestinian population continues to reside in the area encompassing the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and Israel. In this combined area, as of 2004, Palestinians constituted 49% of all inhabitants,[17] encompassing the entire population of the Gaza Strip (1.6 million), the majority of the population of the West Bank (approximately 2.3 million versus close to 500,000 Jewish Israeli citizens which includes about 200,000 in East Jerusalem), and 16.5% of the population of Israel proper as Arab citizens of Israel.[4]

Only 49%. Not a majority, let alone an overwhelming one. Making Israeli citizens of them all would not be like abolition of Apartheid in SA, where power was handed from one electorate to a completely different one overnight. If the Pals ever become an absolute numerical majority, that will be seen coming from far off and everybody will have time to plan for it.

[newcomer]

Originally Posted by Alessan

You must live in a state of constant amazement. I envy you.

Well, that would be quite a blanket statement.

I am, however, constantly amazed how in the perception of ME conflict Israel prevails as the "victim" all the while basic facts such as number of dead, amount of land & property stolen, daily difficulties of life significantly prevail on the side of Palestinians.

Yes, that is truly amazing.

Back home, we used to say, if Serbs hire Israelis to run their propaganda department we are all screwed. Too bad Serbs are immensely stupid so the perception of Balkan war almost matched basic facts - but that's only because of their low international cultural awareness.

[Dissonance]

Originally Posted by sqweels

I would presume that Egypt's and Jordan's renunciations of said territorial claims are in favor of Palestinian independence.

You would presume wrong. There was nothing stopping Egypt and Jordan from setting up a Palestinian state in Gaza or the West Bank from 1948-67 when they were in physical control of the lands, but they had no inclination to do so. Jordan in particular has always had its own problems with Palestinian refugees, see for example Black September. The crowning moment in this event of how bizarre politics can get in the middle east was when Syria invaded Jordan to intervene on behalf of the PLO/PLA/various Palestinian militant organizations who were being put down by the Jordanian Army; the Syrian Air Force never entered the battle and the Syrian Army was eventually contained and driven back by heavy air attacks by the Jordanian Air Force. The reason the Syrian Air Force stayed out of the action? The threat of Israeli intervention on behalf of Jordan, King Hussein was asking the British to ask Israel to intervene.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Dissonance

You would presume wrong. There was nothing stopping Egypt and Jordan from setting up a Palestinian state in Gaza or the West Bank from 1948-67 when they were in physical control of the lands, but they had no inclination to do so. Jordan in particular has always had its own problems with Palestinian refugees, see for example Black September. The crowning moment in this event of how bizarre politics can get in the middle east was when Syria invaded Jordan to intervene on behalf of the PLO/PLA/various Palestinian militant organizations who were being put down by the Jordanian Army; the Syrian Air Force never entered the battle and the Syrian Army was eventually contained and driven back by heavy air attacks by the Jordanian Air Force. The reason the Syrian Air Force stayed out of the action? The threat of Israeli intervention on behalf of Jordan, King Hussein was asking the British to ask Israel to intervene.

[speedy gonzalez]

I love dose fellows! All de time having fun!

[/sg]

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Bear in mind, also:



Only 49%. Not a majority, let alone an overwhelming one. Making Israeli citizens of them all would not be like abolition of Apartheid in SA, where power was handed from one electorate to a completely different one overnight. If the Pals ever become an absolute numerical majority, that will be seen coming from far off and everybody will have time to plan for it.

Three words: Right of Return.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by newcomer

Well, that would be quite a blanket statement.

I am, however, constantly amazed how in the perception of ME conflict Israel prevails as the "victim" all the while basic facts such as number of dead, amount of land & property stolen, daily difficulties of life significantly prevail on the side of Palestinians.

Yes, that is truly amazing.

Back home, we used to say, if Serbs hire Israelis to run their propaganda department we are all screwed. Too bad Serbs are immensely stupid so the perception of Balkan war almost matched basic facts - but that's only because of their low international cultural awareness.

Ho hum.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by newcomer

Well, that would be quite a blanket statement.

I am, however, constantly amazed how in the perception of ME conflict Israel prevails as the "victim" all the while basic facts such as number of dead, amount of land & property stolen, daily difficulties of life significantly prevail on the side of Palestinians.

Yes, that is truly amazing.

Back home, we used to say, if Serbs hire Israelis to run their propaganda department we are all screwed. Too bad Serbs are immensely stupid so the perception of Balkan war almost matched basic facts - but that's only because of their low international cultural awareness.

Fine, but what's all that got to do with the thread topic, i.e., the possibility and viability of a one-state solution? And how do we know whether it would turn out more like South Africa or Zimbabwe?

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Three words: Right of Return.

In practice, how many more Palestinians would that likely add to the population between the Jordan and the sea?

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

In practice, how many more Palestinians would that likely add to the population between the Jordan and the sea?

Wikipedia: "Today, the estimated number of Palestinian refugees, including both first-generation refugees and their descendants, exceeds four million.[14]"

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Wikipedia: "Today, the estimated number of Palestinian refugees, including both first-generation refugees and their descendants, exceeds four million.[14]"

Yes, but how many actually want to live in Israel/Palestine?

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Yes, but how many actually want to live in Israel/Palestine?

A whole bunch. They claim a "right of return" also.
I would imagine that many of them would do it just to screw the Israelis.
And I want a safe place to go if things turn against us here, if I can talk them into it despite my Conservative conversion.
Yeah, I know Allessan, "Good luck with that."

[Tom Tildrum]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Yes, but how many actually want to live in Israel/Palestine?

That may depend on where they're living now.

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Bear in mind, also:



Only 49%. Not a majority, let alone an overwhelming one. Making Israeli citizens of them all would not be like abolition of Apartheid in SA, where power was handed from one electorate to a completely different one overnight. If the Pals ever become an absolute numerical majority, that will be seen coming from far off and everybody will have time to plan for it.

But we do see it coming from far off, right now. The Palestinians have the highest growth rate of any human population, ever - they average, I think, 8 children per family - and unlike historical societies where such large families were common, thanks to the fact that they have access to modern medicine, most of those children reach adulthood. Do you think they were 49% of the population 20 years ago? The only reason the Jewish population (2.7 children per family) has somehow managed to keep up is immigration, and unless you've heard of 2 million American Jews who have considered making Aliyah, that well has pretty much dried out.

"The womb of the Arab woman is my strongest weapon" - Yasser Arafat, and he wasn't kidding.

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by Dissonance

You would presume wrong. There was nothing stopping Egypt and Jordan from setting up a Palestinian state in Gaza or the West Bank from 1948-67 when they were in physical control of the lands, but they had no inclination to do so.

Not only that, but Israel insisted that Egypt take Gaza along with the Sinai in the 1978 Camp David Accords. The Egyptians refused, and that douchebag Carter took their side.

[newcomer]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

I would imagine that many of them would do it just to screw the Israelis.

Now, that's a great argument for keeping them away.

If Israel were a person it would have what's called a "narcissistic paranoid personality disorder".

Just for the fun of it check out these symptoms:

• Reacts to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
• May take advantage of others to reach their own goal
• Tends to exaggerate their own importance, achievements, and talents
• Imagines unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
• Requires constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
• Easily becomes jealous
• Lacks empathy and disregards the feelings of others
• Obsessed with oneself
• Mainly pursues selfish goals
• Trouble keeping healthy relationships
• Is easily hurt and rejected
• Sets unrealistic goals
• Wants "the best" of everything
• Appears as tough-minded or unemotional

Classic.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by newcomer

Now, that's a great argument for keeping them away.

If Israel were a person it would have what's called a "narcissistic paranoid personality disorder".

Just for the fun of it check out these symptoms:

• Reacts to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
• May take advantage of others to reach their own goal
• Tends to exaggerate their own importance, achievements, and talents
• Imagines unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
• Requires constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
• Easily becomes jealous
• Lacks empathy and disregards the feelings of others
• Obsessed with oneself
• Mainly pursues selfish goals
• Trouble keeping healthy relationships
• Is easily hurt and rejected
• Sets unrealistic goals
• Wants "the best" of everything
• Appears as tough-minded or unemotional

Classic.

Thank you, Dr. Laura!

[Procrustus]

Originally Posted by Alessan

Not only that, but Israel insisted that Egypt take Gaza along with the Sinai in the 1978 Camp David Accords. The Egyptians refused, and that douchebag Carter took their side.

Israel didn't get everything they wanted in the negotiations, that's called compromise. Doesn't make Carter a douchebag.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Procrustus

Doesn't make Carter a douchebag.

His book does, though.

[brazil84]

Originally Posted by newcomer

Now, that's a great argument for keeping them away.

If Israel were a person it would have what's called a "narcissistic paranoid personality disorder".

Just for the fun of it check out these symptoms:

• Reacts to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
• May take advantage of others to reach their own goal
• Tends to exaggerate their own importance, achievements, and talents
• Imagines unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
• Requires constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
• Easily becomes jealous
• Lacks empathy and disregards the feelings of others
• Obsessed with oneself
• Mainly pursues selfish goals
• Trouble keeping healthy relationships
• Is easily hurt and rejected
• Sets unrealistic goals
• Wants "the best" of everything
• Appears as tough-minded or unemotional

Classic.

Lol, you forgot one symptom:

Projecting one's own faults onto others.

[brazil84]

Originally Posted by newcomer

It's funny (or, outrageous) that the only way to “legalize” land grab is to create a one-state solution.

This is exactly why a one-state solution will not work. Rightly or wrongly, the general sentiment among the Arabs in the area is that the Jews "stole their land." So if they are in the majority, they will try to chase out and/or slaughter all of the Jews.

A believe that a one-state solution could eventually work, but only after the Jews become a comfortable majority between the Mediterranean and the Jordan.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by brazil84

Lol, you forgot one symptom:

Projecting one's own faults onto others.

Sounds more and more like my Ex-wife.

[Tristan]

Back several years ago, my wife and I were watching some show, and a bit about the Intifada came on. So being a history geek she knows, my wife asked me what it was all about. I attempted to give her as unbiased a recital of the circumstances as I could. She summed it up pretty well, I think.

"Wow, there really isn't a good guy in this one, is there?"

Ruefully, I had to agree, but I did tell her my personal take on it.

I will state that I think the biggest sign of who the "bad guys" are here is that the IDF doesn't lob random unguided rockets into Gaza, as a general rule.

[brazil84]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

And how do we know whether it would turn out more like South Africa or Zimbabwe?

The best way to predict is to look at how Arab majorities have behaved in other countries in the past and in the present. The facts are not encouraging.

Besides which, it's too early to tell if South Africa will end up like Zimbabwe. White rule in South Africa ended less than 20 years ago.

Things didn't start getting really ugly for whites in Zimbabwe until around 2000 -- about 20 years after white rule ended.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by brazil84

A believe that a one-state solution could eventually work, but only after the Jews become a comfortable majority between the Mediterranean and the Jordan.

Barring massive ethnic cleansing on the part of Israel which would lead them to being a pariah or the situation for Jewish Americans rather dramatically deteriorating, the latter is not happening.

Also, if life for Jews in Israel's patron grew so bad they had to flee to Israel then the Arabs would be the least of their worries.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Alessan

Not only that, but Israel insisted that Egypt take Gaza along with the Sinai in the 1978 Camp David Accords. The Egyptians refused, and that douchebag Carter took their side.

Come to think of it, what did they even want the Sinai for?

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by brazil84

This is exactly why a one-state solution will not work. Rightly or wrongly, the general sentiment among the Arabs in the area is that the Jews "stole their land." So if they are in the majority, they will try to chase out and/or slaughter all of the Jews.

Alessan, do you believe that too?

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Come to think of it, what did they even want the Sinai for?

A buffer zone, perhaps.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by brazil84

The best way to predict is to look at how Arab majorities have behaved in other countries in the past and in the present. The facts are not encouraging.

With the exception of the Kurds in Iraq, who traditionally take it from everybody, I cannot think of a single non-Arab minority in an Arab-majority country that has historically been mistreated (I'm talking ethnic as distinct from religious persecution, since you speak of "Arab," not "Muslim"). Certainly not the Jews, who for much of history were far better off in any Arab or Muslim country than in any Christian country.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Alessan, do you believe that too?

It's not a question of "belief". It's facing facts. If there are 10% of Jews in Israel that don't "believe" that, I'd be very surprised.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Tristan

Back several years ago, my wife and I were watching some show, and a bit about the Intifada came on. So being a history geek she knows, my wife asked me what it was all about. I attempted to give her as unbiased a recital of the circumstances as I could. She summed it up pretty well, I think.

"Wow, there really isn't a good guy in this one, is there?"

Ruefully, I had to agree, but I did tell her my personal take on it.

I will state that I think the biggest sign of who the "bad guys" are here is that the IDF doesn't lob random unguided rockets into Gaza, as a general rule.

That's because the IDF can do practically anything it wants to the Gaza Strip, but political considerations require it to carefully weigh all uses of force and their upsides and downsides and international reactions, etc.; but if the relative strengths were reversed and the IDF were a resistance underground, it would stick at nothing, not even 9/11-level shit, and don't no rabbi try to tell me different.

[brazil84]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

With the exception of the Kurds in Iraq, who traditionally take it from everybody, I cannot think of a single non-Arab minority in an Arab-majority country that has historically been mistreated (I'm talking ethnic as distinct from religious persecution, since you speak of "Arab," not "Muslim").

Not all Arabs are Muslim and not all Muslims are Arab.

Anyway, I was referring to both ethnic and religious minorities.

Certainly not the Jews, who for much of history were far better off in any Arab or Muslim country than in any Christian country.

So your position is that generally speaking, Jewish people have not been persecuted in Arab countries in the last 100 years?

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Alessan, do you believe that too?

Pretty much, yeah.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by brazil84

So your position is that generally speaking, Jewish people have not been persecuted in Arab countries in the last 100 years?

AFAIK, they weren't persecuted at all, or even disliked, before Arabs/Muslims started hearing about this whole Zionism thing that made them so angry (which was more or less contemporaneously with the Arabs'/Muslims' exposure to European antisemitic ideology, BTW). Anti-Jewish pogroms are a European thing mainly.

[brazil84]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

AFAIK, they weren't at all, before Arabs/Muslims started hearing about this whole Zionism thing that made them so angry. Anti-Jewish pogroms are a European thing mainly.

Lol, what do you suppose happened to the Jewish community in Khaybar?

Not that it really matters.

1. You seem to concede that Jews have indeed been regularly persecuted by Arabs.

2. You attribute this to Arabs having heard of Zionism. I disagree, but let's assume for the sake of argument this is true.

3. In a hypothetical one-state arrangement, the Arabs will have heard of Zionism.

Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that the Arabs in a hypothetical one-state arrangement will persecute the Jews, just like they have done with all religious minorities in most, perhaps all majority-Arab countries.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Alessan

Pretty much, yeah.

You don't see any way a one-state solution doesn't drive the Jews out of the land sooner or later? What about you, newcomer?

[Trinopus]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

You don't see any way a one-state solution doesn't drive the Jews out of the land sooner or later? What about you, newcomer?

Well, as was noted earlier, it might simply result in a civil war. Ironic if that's how the two-state solution comes about.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii
The OP's desired "one-state solution" will be closer to fruition once he can point out to the Israelis all the current examples of Arab nations in which Jewish minorities live in harmony with Arab majorities, while possessing something resembling equal rights.

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Actually, you are describing a situation that covers most Islamic countries throughout most of Islamic history; Jews were always better off there, and more nearly equals to the majority, than in Christian Europe at any time before the "Jewish Emancipation" of the late 18th Century. But then Israel was founded, and the whole Muslim world went a little crazy for antisemitism . . . .

BrainGlutton
With the exception of the Kurds in Iraq, who traditionally take it from everybody, I cannot think of a single non-Arab minority in an Arab-majority country that has historically been mistreated (I'm talking ethnic as distinct from religious persecution, since you speak of "Arab," not "Muslim"). Certainly not the Jews, who for much of history were far better off in any Arab or Muslim country than in any Christian country.

AFAIK, [Jews] weren't persecuted at all, or even disliked, before Arabs/Muslims started hearing about this whole Zionism thing that made them so angry (which was more or less contemporaneously with the Arabs'/Muslims' exposure to European antisemitic ideology, BTW). Anti-Jewish pogroms are a European thing mainly.

Respectfully, your claim that Jews in the Muslim World, even if we ignore the 20th Century, were "treated well" that they weren't "mistreated" and that they were "nearly equal" to Muslims is really odd coming from someone who's been spending much of this thread making it very clear he hates Apartheid.

I don't think that the treatment of Dhimmis was as bad as the way blacks were treated in Apartheid South Africa, but such comparisons aren't completely unfair and are at least as warranted as trying to compare life for Palestinians in the occupied territories to Apartheid in South Africa.

For myself, I think that objectively speaking, Jews in the Muslim Middle East prior to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire were treated very much like blacks in the Jim Crow South, though slightly better IMHO, and I think it's safe to say that you'd object to claiming that blacks in the Jim Crow South were treated as "near equals", "lived in harmony with whites" and "weren't mistreated."

Let me add that some may justifiably object to the above argument because, as I'll show, one could make a really strong argument that Jews were treated worse by Muslim Middle Easterners in the 18th and 19th Century than blacks in the American South of the 1940s and 1950s.

Now you claim that Jews weren't "historically mistreated".

Most people would certainly consider it "mistreatment" that they were required to pay special taxes because they were Jews, that they were forbidden from having "arms" while Muslims weren't, that they were required to wear specific types of clothing to identify themselves as Jews, that they were not allowed to ride horses, but were instead required to ride donkey and were forbidden from using saddles(this was to demonstrate their inferior status), that they were forbidden from building any new synagogues and had to receive special permission to even make repairs on their's, that they were restricted in the occupations they could take, and were also quite often confined to impoverish ghettos by law(Morocco comes to mind),.

Additionally, it should be noted that Muslim men were allowed to marry Jewish women while Jewish men most certainly were not allowed to marry Muslim women and would face very, very severe penalties if they did.

Moreover, because Jews were not allowed to testify against or give evidence against Muslims in court, that often allowed Muslims to commit all sorts of crimes against Jews without fear of penalty. I.E. if the only people who see a Muslim beat up or murder a Jewish merchant who displeased him are other Jews then little can be done.

Now, obviously, some could argue that I should say that Jews in the Muslim Middle East were treated worse than blacks in 1940s Alabama because American blacks didn't have to pay special taxes, didn't have all sorts of restriction on the building of churches or practicing their religion, and were allowed to carry guns.

As to your claim that they weren't "disliked", well that really depends on how you think of it.

The Muslims of a few Centuries would be quite offended by what you've been suggesting because the idea that they treated "as near equals" people who willfully rejected the teachings of God's last Prophet would not be seen as something to admire.

Yes, they were accorded a certain amount of respect and generally speaking weren't persecuted, but they were very much seen as inferiors and the Dhimmi laws were designed to repeatedly drive home the idea that they were inferior and any Jew who chose to disregard them and insist on being treated as an equal could expect to be treated very much like a black man who dared to be "uppity".

Also, in Persia, they were considered "unclean" and in addition to having restriction on any business ventures(I.E. being forbidden from selling food to Muslims) they weren't even allowed to come into physical contact with Muslims, though I'd caution anyone from comparing them to the Eta of Japan or the untouchables of India.

BrainGlutton
Anti-Jewish pogroms are a European thing mainly.

There were not as many anti-Jewish pogroms in the Muslim Middle East as there were in Europe, but there were still quite a few even if we ignore any that occurred in response to Zionism.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

As for nowadays, Egypt, AFAIK. I've heard of Christians there taking it on the ear, but never Jews.

I'm guessing then that you were unaware of all the Jews getting kicked out under Nasser and weren't aware of the former government having government sponsored clerics declaring Jews to be "the descendants of apes and pigs" and also putting on Egyptian TV a 50 hour mini-series in which evil Jews try to prevent some brave Muslims from getting ahold of and exposing to the world a set of documents called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?


Edit: the above wasn't meant to be as snarky as it came across.

[carnivorousplant]

Yet the "Golden Age" of the Diaspora in Moorish Spain is compared to present Jewish life in the United States for the well being of Jews.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

With the exception of the Kurds in Iraq, who traditionally take it from everybody, I cannot think of a single non-Arab minority in an Arab-majority country that has historically been mistreated (I'm talking ethnic as distinct from religious persecution, since you speak of "Arab," not "Muslim"). Certainly not the Jews, who for much of history were far better off in any Arab or Muslim country than in any Christian country.

Well, the Druze would certainly disagree with such sentiments as would the Berbers.

Moreover, when the word "Persian" or "Aja" is used as an insult in both Lebanon and Iraq one could question that even if one ignores the treatment of Iranians in some of the Gulf States.

Moreover, Pakistanis and Filipinos in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere are treated vastly worse than Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Yet the "Golden Age" of the Diaspora in Moorish Spain is compared to present Jewish life in the United States for the well being of Jews.

Not by knowledgeable scholars it's not.

Bernard Lewis, who is probably the greatest current living scholar on the subject of the medieval Middle East has pointed out that this was a myth promoted by late 19th Century Jewish historians in England trying to shame their gentile countrymen trying to treat Jews better and is currently promoted by Muslims trying to shame Israelis into treating Muslims better.

The Jews were certainly vastly better off in "Moorish Spain"(a term that Muslims would raise their eyebrows at) but they certainly weren't remotely treated as equals and it's worth noting that it hardly ended well as anyone familiar with Cordoba or Maimonides can testify to.

For anyone interested I'd recommend reading Under Crescent and Cross by Mark Cohen, a professor of Near East History at Princeton, which is fantastic.

http://www.amazon.com/Under-Crescent...5405487&sr=8-1

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Trinopus

Well, as was noted earlier, it might simply result in a civil war. Ironic if that's how the two-state solution comes about.

Wait, then, maybe they could skip a step or two in this process . . .

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Not by knowledgeable scholars it's not.

Rabbi Telushkin author of Jewish Literacy and my Rabbi, (who is no scholar) differ.

I'll try and find your reference.

Perhaps it is comparative, as Iran is considered to be the safest place for Jews in the Middle East after Israel.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Rabbi Telushkin author of Jewish Literacy and my Rabbi, (who is no scholar) differ.

I'll try and find your reference.

Perhaps it is comparative, as Iran is considered to be the safest place for Jews in the Middle East after Israel.

Yes, your Rabbi is believing a common myth that collapses under the slightest trace of scrutiny.

The Jews of that time period were better off than the Jews of medieval Poland but to compare a country in which Jews who were seen riding horses risked being executed for insolence to the treatment of Jews in modern America is asinine.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Yes, your Rabbi is believing a common myth that collapses under the slightest trace of scrutiny.

Hey!
Be polite and nice.
I thought we were getting along.