What are the Occupiers up to?

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

We saw a group of Occupiers still on Wall Street early last month. They were occupying a sidewalk right across from Federal Hall and the NYSE and had a sign promoting the May Day action.

We saw a small group of them in Philadelphia near Independence Hall. And some in Washington, although we're not 100% sure the DC ones weren't just regular homeless.

Oh yeah, and in New Haven, Connecticut. They were occupying a square by Yale University. Our friends who were showing us around said they'd not been evicted because there was some legal dispute over exactly who was responsible for the square -- Yale or some other party.

[elfkin477]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

The Occupiers are doing what they always have: they engage in hard hitting actions based upon solid research and tough-minded investigation. Let the Tea Party crazies prance in their costumes and expect the congressional republicans to pamper their plutocrats. Occupiers believe in vigilance and hard work.

Are you quoting an article from The Onion here?

[Measure for Measure]

Originally Posted by elfkin477

Are you quoting an article from The Onion here?

A significant fraction of Occupiers hails from the professional class. A decent example might be Simon Johnson, a former IMF employee who knows a sclerotic financial oligarchy when he sees it. And it is a good idea for Occupy the SEC to crowdsource some of the dry regulatory scrutiny.

Finally, if the Tea Partiers don't like it when people call them crazy, they should stop dressing like Napoleon.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum

Short term goal: release Mumia. Long term goal: end mass incarceration.

I cringed. However, even Cecil had his doubts about Mumia's conviction in the first column on the site.

They could argue bipartisan support on the latter issue too.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

Sure we do - at this time in 2010, Tea Partiers were heavily involved in the primary process, supporting people like Rand Paul and trying to get candidates elected to Congress that supported their views. That effort was successful to some extent.

So what Occupiers have been challenging in the primaries lately, with realistic chances of getting the nomination and standing in the general? What Occupy Pledge have they been circulating to candidates to try to get them to commit to Occupy principles, whatever they might be?

If the Occupiers are to influence the elections, we'd see them in action now.

Didn't the Tea Party start earlier, though? As in, wasn't it around since 2008 or at least early 2009?

[Happy Lendervedder]

Originally Posted by BigT

Didn't the Tea Party start earlier, though? As in, wasn't it around since 2008 or at least early 2009?

Early 2009. Within a month of Obama's inauguration, Tea Party protests began.

[John Mace]

Occupy Oakland is leading the charge with... anti-patriarchy protests.

[What the .... ?!?!]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

There is absolutely nothing significant about this "movement". They've accomplished nothing, and they aren't going to accomplish anything.

Time Mag included them among the Persons of the Year didn't they? What does that say about them....or the rag itself, then?

I could be wrong....as with the 100 Most Influential in the World I just looked at the pictures. How would you assign the Occupier's credit for being part of that designation relative to the Middle East Protesters or even the Tea Baggers who the Occupiers were compared to by many (still are). They should get some points for starting it.

[BrainGlutton]

Guide to the May Day events.

[elucidator]

"And you know something is happening here, but you don't know what it is! Do you, Mr. Jones?"

- Ballad of a Thin Man, Bob Dylan

[BrainGlutton]

City-by-city guide.

[John Mace]

The Dow is up > 100 pts, so the market approves!

[What the .... ?!?!]

Originally Posted by What the .... ?!?!

Time Mag included them among the Persons of the Year didn't they? What does that say about them....or the rag itself, then?

I could be wrong....as with the 100 Most Influential in the World I just looked at the pictures. How would you assign the Occupier's credit for being part of that designation relative to the Middle East Protesters or even the Tea Baggers who the Occupiers were compared to by many (still are). They should get some points for starting it.

Since the thread is a bit stale........ I'm really curious re your takes on how big an influence the Occupiers were on the Person of the Year award.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by What the .... ?!?!

Since the thread is a bit stale........ I'm really curious re your takes on how big an influence the Occupiers were on the Person of the Year award.

Big, I should think, since they were in the news at the end of the year, when the nominations were being considered. It's the same with the Academy Awards, or so I've read.

[foolsguinea]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

They were a non-factor in the primaries, have no known major candidates in the general election, and again no organization and no money. They don't even have a coherent agenda. They are impotent as a political force.

I agree with Oakminster for once.

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Meanwhile, the Occupy folks have managed to....camp in parks. They have no organization, no money, and no influence with anybody that matters.

Well, one of the points of social democracy generally is that everyone matters. Apparently OWS has utterly failed to convey this simple message. We can add that to the ridiculous insistence of Occupy Oakland that "direct action" somehow does not entail getting your own people in office.

After all the bluster, the GOP will retain the House and most state legislatures this year, because the dippy libertarians who run the occupations completely wasted the nation's populist anger. Almost as if it was planned that way.

Nah, what the left needs is a strong Communist Party to balance the GOP, our "Capitalist Party." The Democratic Party aren't even sure they're social democrats.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by foolsguinea

After all the bluster, the GOP will retain the House and most state legislatures this year, because the dippy libertarians who run the occupations . . .

Never heard them called that before. Don't recall no Ron Paul or LP signs.

[elucidator]

Libertarians? Seems like everybody who doesn't like OWS projects a different Betty Noyer. They're all just a bunch of spoiled college kids! (Students Wildly Indignant about Nearly Everything!) They're all just aging hippies and their LSD-mutated grandchildren. Violent mindless anarchists!

Its an experiment, and experiments usually don't work, but you learn something. For years and years, progressives have tried to play the game, but the game is Republican Poker: they get seven cards, you get five, all yours are dealt face up and they get to draw twice. Conservatives love rules and authority and organization, they get total wood just thinking about it (or whatever the female equivalent of "wood" may be, but I'm not going there).

"You have no program! No agenda! No spokesmen! No fundraising begging money from rich folks! "

You're right, we don't. And maybe that's stupid. But what if it isn't?

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Its an experiment, and experiments usually don't work, but you learn something.

Experiments always work. The point is that you learn something, regardless of whether the results are the expected results or not. That's how it is in science, anyway.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by What the .... ?!?!

Time Mag included them among the Persons of the Year didn't they? What does that say about them....or the rag itself, then?

I could be wrong....as with the 100 Most Influential in the World I just looked at the pictures. How would you assign the Occupier's credit for being part of that designation relative to the Middle East Protesters or even the Tea Baggers who the Occupiers were compared to by many (still are). They should get some points for starting it.

Any list in a newsmagazine is by definition a list of 100 people who have made news in the last year. It doesn't need to signify anything more than that, and in fact it doesn't.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by elucidator

"You have no program! No agenda! No spokesmen! No fundraising begging money from rich folks! "

You're right, we don't. And maybe that's stupid. But what if it isn't?

Depends on if you ever want to actually accomplish anything, or just bitch and moan. Like it or not, the system is what it is. Without organization, a coherent agenda, and money, you're just pissing in the wind. You can break out the tye-dye, occupy some remote hillside, and sing about buying the world a Coke...or you can learn to play the game.

[Measure for Measure]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Depends on if you ever want to actually accomplish anything, or just bitch and moan. Like it or not, the system is what it is. Without organization, a coherent agenda, and money, you're just pissing in the wind. You can break out the tye-dye, occupy some remote hillside, and sing about buying the world a Coke...or you can learn to play the game.

I mostly agree with you. Utopianism is a dead end, albeit one that has some attraction to the young and soft left. There are some caveats:

1. Phase 1 of Occupy was a success, as it refocused attention on Wall Street Reform and the vast manipulation of the legislative process by the 0.1%. Roughly speaking, once Oakland got involved, they started circling the drain.

2. There is some scope for newish techniques, due to social networking. Coordinating people within region and across regions has become immeasurably easier. So crowdsourcing is plausible.

3. The 99%/the 1% is a useful meme, which is electorally relevant.

4. There are plenty of Occupiers who haven't fallen into the Utopian trap. Occupy the SEC is good example.

5. Not having an agenda permits you to evade some traps. Sort of like avoiding bad ref calls by never entering the playing field.


But yes, it's May and in Occupy WS looks irrelevant to the 2012 elections. And there's little sign that they will gear up in 2014, 2016. Pathetic, alas. There other activities are not irrelevant, though many of them are counterproductive.

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

...or you can learn to play the game.

Of course you want us to play the game, Oakie! You're pretty sure we'll lose.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Of course you want us to play the game, Oakie! You're pretty sure we'll lose.

That's because we always end up trying to play baseball on a battlefield.

Maybe that should change.

And maybe the OWSers are trying to change it.

[Measure for Measure]

I think the New Right of the 1970s/1980s was quite a bit more effective electorally than the New Hippie Left of the 1960s/1970s. In fact the latter was probably counter-productive. And I think the reason is that the Righties would work the system. Remember that in the early days the funding was mostly via direct mail; the right wing foundations didn't seriously gear up until the 1980s.

Boring letter writing campaigns and voter registration work. As elucidator has pointed out, Acorn punched way above their weight.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

As elucidator has pointed out, Acorn punched way above their weight.

Mebbeso, but what laid 'em out was dirty fighting with weighted gloves and indifferent refs.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

Boring letter writing campaigns and voter registration work.

Joel Bleifuss of In These Times agrees:

Some occupiers appreciate electoral strategy, like the In These Times contributor who is running in Northern California’s 2nd Congressional District. In one of his first reports for In These Times, Norman Solomon wrote: “Occupiers swiftly unpacked their camping gear, and settled in to make themselves comfortable. The main gate’s sign stating ‘Private Property – No Trespassing’ was quickly covered with one saying ‘The People’s Property.’ ”

That was on August 8, 1977, when Solomon and his fellow protesters occupied the Trojan Nuclear Power Plant northwest of Portland, Ore. Solomon, one of 82 demonstrators arrested, wrote the article from jail.

This insurgent Democrat is going up against two establishment liberals for the seat of retiring Rep. Lynn Woolsey, the former chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. In California’s new post-partisan election system, the top two vote getters in the June 5 primary (Democratic, Republican or Green) will go head-to-head in the general election. In the 2nd Congressional District, both candidates will be Democrats. Solomon is campaigning for the opportunity to challenge the current frontrunner, State Assemblyman Jared Huffman, who, after having taken campaign donations from Walmart and Pacific Gas & Electric, has fashioned himself as a pro-union and environmentalist Dem.

As the weather warms up and the Occupiers adapt their strategies, they shouldn’t lose sight of important struggles being fought in the electoral arena by committed progressives like Solomon. While electoral politics cannot be the sole emphasis of Occupy, it would be a terrible mistake for this new progressive movement to simply cede the levers of the state to our enemies.

[foolsguinea]

OWS was packed with Ron Paul followers, from what I heard. Don't act so surprised.

I think it was an Orwellian project from Go. When the Right want something, they go to Washington and tell the slaves what to do. When the Left want something, they go in the streets and yell until they get over it, and get nothing. This is all according to plan.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Of course you want us to play the game, Oakie! You're pretty sure we'll lose.

Obviously I want you to lose, but the only way you have a chance at winning is to play the game. Look at the Civil Rights movement for inspiration. They had marches and demonstrations, too....but they played the game, and won, despite long odds. They had organization, an agenda, and money. They won victories in legislatures and in court. They accomplished significant, lasting social change. In contrast, the Occupy folks seem to mostly be about hoping somebody, somewhere, somehow, does something but nobody knows who, what, when, where, or how. That ain't gonna cut it. If you really want change, you have to make it happen within the system.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Obviously I want you to lose, but the only way you have a chance at winning is to play the game. Look at the Civil Rights movement for inspiration. They had marches and demonstrations, too....but they played the game, and won, despite long odds. They had organization, an agenda, and money. They won victories in legislatures and in court.

But, none of that would have happened without the marches and demonstrations.

[Elendil's Heir]

You gotta sing really loud if you want to end war and stuff.

[elucidator]

Who says we can't do both? Can't fart and chew gum at the same time? Stop chewing gum for a few seconds, let 'er rip, and then resume chewing gum. ACORN tried it your way, the Alinsky way, and they were very good at it. Or maybe it just isn't all that difficult. At any rate, they scared the people who snuffed them. So, yeah, we can do that.

We can also gather together in inchoate bunches and bask in each other presence. We don't have to fuck everything up by forming committees to explore the question of blah blah blah. At least not all the time. But nobody is going to stop them, its valuable work, that some of us are gifted for. Some can easily handle hours of haggling over the correct wording of a position paper, others of us can only stand about thirty minutes before our vision gets all red and swirly and we want to stab! stab! stab!. Some of us are like that.

Its not necessarily an either/or situation. This approach may not command your respect, but we don't have that now and are not going to get it tomorrow. Keep in mind, there is more than one way to skin a cat, but some are more entertaining than others.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Obviously I want you to lose, but the only way you have a chance at winning is to play the game. Look at the Civil Rights movement for inspiration. They had marches and demonstrations, too....but they played the game, and won, despite long odds. They had organization, an agenda, and money. They won victories in legislatures and in court. They accomplished significant, lasting social change. In contrast, the Occupy folks seem to mostly be about hoping somebody, somewhere, somehow, does something but nobody knows who, what, when, where, or how. That ain't gonna cut it. If you really want change, you have to make it happen within the system.

I know I'm showing my age but I have to agree. The Civil Rights movement is a model, perhaps the only real model of our times. At least mine, since I lived through it.

The difference - and it's a major one - is that there isn't a real and identifiable villain for OWS to oppose. The Southern bigots committed such outsized, almost cartoonish, villainy that even the majority of Northern whites - not exactly on the side of blacks - were appalled and outraged. The conditions replicated those that led to the Civil War, where a population that was perfectly content to discriminate against blacks themselves were pushed to defend them by such blatant unAmericanism.

Slavery was a completely unnecessary system. Jim Crow was a completely unnecessary system. Capitalism is not. Wealth is not. Finance is not. Banking is not. You can seek to refine or regulate them, but not to eliminate them.

The Civil Rights movement won victories because it could define what it was against and what it was for. The Gay Rights movement of today is winning support because it also can do that - along with the cartoonish opposition. Being able to define exactly what you're against gets you to a movement. Most of the 60s' movements achieved that. Being able to define exactly what you are for gets you victories.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

The difference - and it's a major one - is that there isn't a real and identifiable villain for OWS to oppose.

There is the white overclass. It not be destroyed or dispossesed -- it is enough to put an end to its weilding political power out of proportion to its numbers.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

There is the white overclass. It not be destroyed or dispossesed -- it is enough to put an end to its weilding political power out of proportion to its numbers.

The Man is not an identifiable villain. (Yes, I'm equating the white overclass with the 60s label of the Establishment, i.e. The Man. The two overlap so much that it's ludicrous not to.)

Look, the youth movement tried that once before. And couldn't get people to identify Richard Nixon as a villain. How do you think that's going to work with Barack Obama as President? Or even Mitt Romney?

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Its not necessarily an either/or situation. This approach may not command your respect, but we don't have that now and are not going to get it tomorrow. Keep in mind, there is more than one way to skin a cat, but some are more entertaining than others.

Neither you Simon, nor the fifty thousand
Nor the Romans, nor the Jews
Nor Judas, nor the twelve
Nor the priests, nor the scribes
Nor doomed Jerusalem itself
Understand what power is
Understand what glory is
Understand at all--Jesus to Simon, Jesus Christ Superstar

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by foolsguinea

OWS was packed with Ron Paul followers, from what I heard. Don't act so surprised.

There is that contingent. I've declined joining groups that even mention Paul favourably on facebook (eagerly awaiting the Occupy social network site, should it ever happen). There was no such anarcho-capitalist movement in OLSX though. I quoted Milton Friedman to a guy that described himself as a "capitalist" (he was in a suit and had a briefcase, he could actually have owned capital) and he was pretty shocked. He said he believed in a safety net and other institutions that arose through Socialist thought. I guess that's the difference between Europe and the US.

Originally Posted by Oakminster

sing about buying the world a Coke.

Actually, they'd be more likely to sing about working conditions in Coke factories and suppressions of unions by Coke, wouldn't they?

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally Posted by elucidator

"And you know something is happening here, but you don't know what it is! Do you, Mr. Jones?"

- Ballad of a Thin Man, Bob Dylan

Correct! And now, for $500 in the bonus round, who wrote "Melancholy Baby?"

[BrainGlutton]

There's an OWS National Gathering in Philadelphia right now. It will continue through July 4.

They're also planning a "March on Wall Street South" event September 2 at the Democratic National Convention.

[magellan01]

What are the Occupiers up to?

1. Hacky Sack
2. Smoking pot
3. Thinking up more excuses why they don't have awesome jobs
4. Whining

Take your pick(s).

[Gyrate]

5. Waiting for magellan01 to finish the giant strawman he's building so they can hold a local version of the Burning Man festival.

[2ManyTacos]

I don't really follow this movement at all, so question:

Are there any plans for the OWS people to actually organize and start voting? It seems that, in the wake of the USSC health care decision, that there really ought to be at least SOME kind of left-leaning answer to the Tea Partiers, who were galvanized even more after last week's decision.

From what I know of the movement, it seems that all the OWS folks do is stand around and bitch about the wealthy. Unless they get out and fucking VOTE, well, then it's a pretty damn pointless thing that they've got going on.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by 2ManyTacos

Are there any plans for the OWS people to actually organize and start voting?

There's a long history of various anarchist and Marxist groups not engaging in elections. Not that the Occupiers could be classified as such, explicitly.

[BrainGlutton]

OWS is planning an "anniversary protest" on September 17.

[moonshot925]

I went to OWS at Zuccotti Park in October 2011 and noticed that many of the protesters were communists. Some were antisemites and others were 9/11 truthers.

There was even a guy dressed in an East German Grenztruppen (border guard) Hauptmann (capitan) uniform.

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by moonshot925

I went to OWS at Zuccotti Park in October 2011 and noticed that many of the protesters were communists. Some were antisemites and others were 9/11 truthers.

There was even a guy dressed in an East German Grenztruppen (border guard) Hauptmann (capitan) uniform.

Cool story, bro.

I was a Communist sympathizer once. I met this guy and he was all "I'm a Communist" and I was all "I'm sorry to hear that."

[HurricaneDitka]

Reading through this thread has been immensely entertaining. Too bad OWS never did anything worthwhile or got big enough so that my kids might one day ask me about it and I could chucke to myself and say, "Yeah, that OWS movement never really did amount to much of anything."

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by moonshot925

I went to OWS at Zuccotti Park in October 2011 and noticed that many of the protesters were communists. Some were antisemites and others were 9/11 truthers.

There was even a guy dressed in an East German Grenztruppen (border guard) Hauptmann (capitan) uniform.

But were there any antidentites? Those are the ones you have to worry about!

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by John Mace

But were there any antidentites? Those are the ones you have to worry about!

They're the ones who want fluoride out of our drinking water!

[moonshot925]

Video of the guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6MzOawRN28

[John Mace]

Apparently a few hundred tried to shut down Wall Street today. Mission not accomplished.