I Pit Men Who Think Working Women Are There to Service Their Sex Drive

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Sometimes leftists in general get criticized because when one leftist says something reprehensible, other leftists are too slow to repudiate the reprehensible thing said. I don't necessarily buy that reasoning, but I certainly get why it's nice for folks arguing with leftists to see us police our own.

Along those lines, and assuming that secretsmile is male (which, I recognize, given the username, is a pretty safe assumption), I'd just like to say: secretsmile, shut your fucking piehole.

[Invisible Chimp]

Originally Posted by even sven

I'm going to blame the Nice Guy syndrome. I think what we are seeing is guys who are resentful that women have preferences in their sexual partners, and may want to be with attractive, charming, outgoing men more than a weird socially awkward guy.

I mostly agreed with your post, including your interpretations of others'posts, but I disagree with this. I don't blame it on guys being resentful of anything. I do think it might have to do with social awkwardness though, i.e, they lack empathy, miss social cues, etc.

You're bagging on the social awkward guy is getting old though. It's almost as bad as their supposed misogyny. Do you realize that now that you're over thirty, you're the female equivalent of the socially awkward guy? Men, in general, are going to prefer the younger, hotter chick over you.

Originally Posted by Bosstone

Yep, mine as well.

I wasn't saying Broomstick was overreacting. I was saying the other posters who were assuming the worst from an ambiguous retelling might have been overreacting, especially when yelling at those of us who were assuming a more mild confrontation.

I didn't find the OP ambiguous. You and others simply failed at reading comprehension. Given Broomstick's reaction, I don't see how you could assume a mild confrontation unless you thought she was overreacting.

[secretsmile36]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

Sometimes leftists in general get criticized because when one leftist says something reprehensible, other leftists are too slow to repudiate the reprehensible thing said. I don't necessarily buy that reasoning, but I certainly get why it's nice for folks arguing with leftists to see us police our own.

Along those lines, and assuming that secretsmile is male (which, I recognize, given the username, is a pretty safe assumption), I'd just like to say: secretsmile, shut your fucking piehole.

Same to you lefthand of idiot. You know you can't tell someone's sex by their username.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Sometimes you kind of can.

[Library Boy]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

Sometimes you kind of can.

It's ridiculous to think that you can guess gender by user name, that's just.....
Oh. Never mind.

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by Invisible Chimp

You're bagging on the social awkward guy is getting old though. It's almost as bad as their supposed misogyny. Do you realize that now that you're over thirty, you're the female equivalent of the socially awkward guy? Men, in general, are going to prefer the younger, hotter chick over you.

heh.

[Invisible Chimp]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

Sometimes you kind of can.

Funny, coming from someone whose username is a take off of a novel about gender-bending aliens.

[The Tao's Revenge]

Originally Posted by even sven

It wouldn't be such a big deal if this was a one-off rection to a one-off story. But it's part of a pattern that happens whenever any female doper posts a similar story. It's also, coincidentally, the exact same bullshit that people give to rape victims and other women who have had been threatened or hurt in a sexual way. People will jump hoops trying to twist the scenario to find some possible way to interpret the guy as not being creepy.

I'm going to blame the Nice Guy syndrome. I think what we are seeing is guys who are resentful that women have preferences in their sexual partners, and may want to be with attractive, charming, outgoing men more than a weird socially awkward guy.

You know what. As a socially awkward guy many would find "weird", I find this rather offensive. Just because I don't fit in with the local culture. I've never did anything like the OP. Yet here you are calling me a loser and linking me with the creeper in the OP and jackasses who blame rape victims.

[ZPG Zealot]

Originally Posted by RedFury

Or does persistence -- from either sex -- have anything to do with it?

For much of recorded human history the answer is no, men and women lived separate lives and mating was arranged.

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady

This guy is scary as shit, and the fact that you don't see how scary he is frankly makes you just as scary.

No, it makes me not fucking crazy.

[Library Boy]

Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot

For much of recorded human history the answer is no, men and women lived separate lives and mating was arranged.

And thus men invented shaking hands as an shameful, degrading outlet for their pent-up LUSTFUL URGES!

Why yes, I am bored & trapped at work (after my shift) by the "Occupy" movement

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Steophan

Stop with the strawman arguments. You took his number, he took that as a sign you wanted further contact. Which is reasonable on his part.

I didn't take the paper while he was there, I ordered him out of the shop. Granted, he didn't see me tear it up and throw it in the garbage but no, I did NOT "take his number".

That doesn't mean that there was any actual threat from him, or that you didn't overreact.

Oddly enough, a substantial number of people disagree with you on that point.

Yes, I think there is an actual threat from men who don't take "no" for an answer.

[Chessic Sense]

Originally Posted by Myrnalene

In these hypothetical situations, did the person relaying the incident ask for advice on "how to deal with the situation"? If not, then it's not, "hey, since you need a suggestion, here's what you could do". It's, "why didn't you do this? I would have done that." If your "advice" falls into the latter category, than heyo guess what, you are a dick and that is victim blaming.

Also, for future reference - most women don't need advice from most men on how do deal with creepy dudes, seeing as how we are unfortunately in the position of having more experience with this issue. And Monday morning quaterbacking is even more infuriating when it's coming from someone who's never held a football.

I asked a very specific question that you didn't answer. I didn't ask why it's infuriating or why it's a dick move. I asked why it's victim blaming. It's not even blaming the criminal, let alone the victim. It's not blaming of any type. Saying "shoulda" in no way references blame to any degree.

Originally Posted by hamwater

Heh. A guy asked me to dance at a bar one night and when I said "No thank you", he said "Why are you being so picky? I'm not!"

That's...actually pretty funny.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot

For much of recorded human history the answer is no, men and women lived separate lives and mating was arranged.

Marriages were arranged. Fucking wasn't.

[YogSosoth]

Originally Posted by Invisible Chimp

I mostly agreed with your post, including your interpretations of others'posts, but I disagree with this. I don't blame it on guys being resentful of anything. I do think it might have to do with social awkwardness though, i.e, they lack empathy, miss social cues, etc.

You're bagging on the social awkward guy is getting old though. It's almost as bad as their supposed misogyny. Do you realize that now that you're over thirty, you're the female equivalent of the socially awkward guy? Men, in general, are going to prefer the younger, hotter chick over you.

Yeah, some of us are awkward and timid, not awkward and creepy!

But I think what some of my fellow men are trying to say, if inelegantly, is that just as women are more aware than men about this creep factor, men are more aware than women about the harm in tarring an innocent flirt. Some guys, even me sometimes, would be overly aggressive in defending what we see as just harmless flirting

In this case though, I think we would all be better off if we deferred to Broomstick's instincts. If only because of that pimple thread

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

Marriages were arranged. Fucking wasn't.

Yeah, but that second one really didn't catch on till Quicky Mart dumpsters and the back seats of Edsels were invented.

[hamwater]

Originally Posted by Chessic Sense

That's...actually pretty funny.

I know, it's still my favorite reverse pick-up line.

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by blindboyard

/snip/

Don't worry so much about your safety. Women are victims of only a minority of violent crime, no matter how tiny they might perceive themselves to be.

I knew this was ludicrous at a glance, since at my ripe old age of 42 I know as many women who've been victims of violence than not but I Googled that bullshit anyway. Hunh. The perception of tiny here is yours. Why not ask the women around you if they've been a victim of actual, attempted or threatened violence? I have.

While you're at it, ask if they've been offered or asked for sex while at their jobs, compensated sex or otherwise. I have. Women who are a captive audience are just irresistible to some men, more than you apparently realize; they feel they might have a chance to get away w/ something and they're going to take it.

I read this whole miserable thread and I'm convinced some people cannot or will not empathize w/ others. Most men I've known would be furious if the woman in the OP was their sister, mom, daughter or SO. Some of you clever pieces of shit enjoy being fuckers merely for the sake of being clever fucking piece of shit fuckers.

[Library Boy]

Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka

<snip>

I read this whole miserable thread and I'm convinced some people cannot or will not empathize w/ others. Most men I've known would be furious if the woman in the OP was their sister, mom, daughter or SO. Some of you clever pieces of shit enjoy being fuckers merely for the sake of being clever fucking piece of shit fuckers.

I think your second use of "piece of shit" needs to be plural, like the first (pieces of shit), but with that sentence I would not bet the house on it.

Clever? Shucks, thanks!

[Myrnalene]

Originally Posted by Chessic Sense

I asked a very specific question that you didn't answer. I didn't ask why it's infuriating or why it's a dick move. I asked why it's victim blaming. It's not even blaming the criminal, let alone the victim. It's not blaming of any type. Saying "shoulda" in no way references blame to any degree.

"Oh, it sucks that this happened to you, but.....why were you there / doing that / wearing that?"
"You should have done this, then he wouldn't have done that!"
"I would have kicked him in the balls / got my manager / filed a complaint (and you didn't ergo, you handled it wrong)."
"It wasn't even that bad, why are you getting so upset? Other women have had it worse / he was just flirting / you're irrational."

It's victim blaming because it implies that the person making the complaint is either partially (or totally) responsible for their situation, or that they are mishandling their reaction to it. It takes the focus right off the person who actually did the fucked up thing and puts in on the victim, on what they could or should do differently.

Originally Posted by YogSogoth

But I think what some of my fellow men are trying to say, if inelegantly, is that just as women are more aware than men about this creep factor, men are more aware than women about the harm in tarring an innocent flirt. Some guys, even me sometimes, would be overly aggressive in defending what we see as just harmless flirting.

K well......don't do this. Because being made to feel dirty or dehumanized or afraid is actually a lot worse than having your pick-up lines shot down. And someone who already feels dirty or dehumanized or afraid really doesn't need to hear about how the poor creeper was just misunderstood and she's the one with the problem.

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka

While you're at it, ask if they've been offered or asked for sex while at their jobs, compensated sex or otherwise. I have. Women who are a captive audience are just irresistible to some men, more than you apparently realize; they feel they might have a chance to get away w/ something and they're going to take it.

It's happened to plenty of women I know, including some that have been the victims of serious sexual abuse in the past. The thing is, they are not a captive audience, as they can tell the person doing it to leave, and if they don't get a manager, a security guard, or the police to do so. I know people who've done this, mostly bar workers rather than shop workers but the principle is the same.

What happened to Broomstick is a regrettably common situation, with a clearly defined way to handle it. That she, for whatever reason, chose not to do that, but instead took the guys number and continued to talk to him, will have a lot to do with why he didn't fuck off. Had she, instead of doing that, got her manager and a security guard, I doubt he would have been back asking why she didn't call...

So yes, had this happened to someone I cared about, I'd have been pissed off at the guy. I'd also have been annoyed at her stupidity

I read this whole miserable thread and I'm convinced some people cannot or will not empathize w/ others. Most men I've known would be furious if the woman in the OP was their sister, mom, daughter or SO. Some of you clever pieces of shit enjoy being fuckers merely for the sake of being clever fucking piece of shit fuckers.

No, I'm quite capable of empathy. I'm also quite capable of seeing how her behaviour here, calling what he did a threat, and him a potential rapist, trivialises the suffering of people who have been victims of these, and also reduces the likelihood of people who complain about genuine threats being taken seriously, due to the "crying wolf" effect.

I'm also quite capable of being fucking furious about it, because that trivialising is part of what has cause the suffering of people I care about.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by Steophan

It's happened to plenty of women I know, including some that have been the victims of serious sexual abuse in the past. The thing is, they are not a captive audience, as they can tell the person doing it to leave, and if they don't get a manager, a security guard, or the police to do so. I know people who've done this, mostly bar workers rather than shop workers but the principle is the same.

Bars tend to have security at them. Shoe shops?

I'm also quite capable of being fucking furious about it, because that trivialising is part of what has cause the suffering of people I care about.

Back down, dude. Sleep on it, back down, and chill. At this point you are 100% blaming the victim, and it's pretty crazy. You may see things differently in the morning.

[The Tao's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

Back down, dude. Sleep on it, back down, and chill. At this point you are 100% blaming the victim, and it's pretty crazy. You may see things differently in the morning.

Repeated for emphases.

[Myrnalene]

Originally Posted by Steophan

I'm also quite capable of being fucking furious about it, because that trivialising is part of what has cause the suffering of people I care about.

How grateful the women in your life must be that you are so outraged on their behalf that you are attacking a woman who was harassed and frightened by a dude who refused to take no for an answer.

Carry on, valiant soldier! Fight the real enemy!

[even sven]

What do you guys think rapists do? Grow horns and say "Ok, so here is the deal. I am going to sexually assault you"?

Rapists, would-be rapists, and stalkers often, often start by gradually violating your trust and judging your reaction.

They guy who got the closest to raping me pretending like he was helping me after I was seriously injured in a motorcycle accident. Then he started getting weird and I started to get uncomfortable. Then he started getting weirder and I started to get scared. Then he tried to rape me (of course, Steophane can always say I shouldn't be so upset...after all he didn't succeed in raping me...). That's the common progression.

Slightly helpful and maybe a bit funny, if awkward -> a little "off," but nothing to get alarmed about -> hitting some boundaries, but with plausible deniability -> seriously violating boundaries -> physical assault.

When anyone starts edging into stage three is going to feel like a threat to me. And if I feel threatened, my only interest is not being raped. I don't care if it hurts someone's feelings. I don't care if I am overreacting. I don't care if it's "just words." I am not going to give the benefit of the doubt. I really, really, really don't want to be raped. And if it starts hitting step three, yes, I am going to feel oogy and uncomfortable. It's part of the "I don't want to get raped" reaction.

Originally Posted by Invisible Chimp

I mostly agreed with your post, including your interpretations of others'posts, but I disagree with this. I don't blame it on guys being resentful of anything. I do think it might have to do with social awkwardness though, i.e, they lack empathy, miss social cues, etc.

You're bagging on the social awkward guy is getting old though. It's almost as bad as their supposed misogyny. Do you realize that now that you're over thirty, you're the female equivalent of the socially awkward guy? Men, in general, are going to prefer the younger, hotter chick over you.

I think I should apologize here. I wasn't talking about socially awkward guys. Actually, most of the real socially awkward guys I know are in happy relationships at this point.

I am referring to a subset of asshole guys who are consistently confused that their asshole tactics- usually replete with badgering, guilt tripping, misogynist bullshit- doesn't win hearts and minds. Baffled by their inability to stick their dick in any passing woman that becomes their target, they decide that the only explanation is that women are horrible judges of character and "only like jerks." Under the false banner of the "socially awkward," they whine for the rights of assholes.

Everyone has their advantages and drawbacks in dating. What matters is how gracefully you work with what you've got. In my life, right now I'm hoping the only younger chick my SO is interested in is the daughter we are hoping to have.

[mister nyx]

Originally Posted by billfish678

You left out

8. OP didn't tell the whole fucking story and the most important part of it from the get go.

Huh, because the original story in post number #1 is actually totally sufficient to confirm that Broomstick has every fucking right to be upset.

But, I mean, obviously you didn't think that proved she'd suffered enough to complain.

[Hbns]

Originally Posted by Myrnalene

Also, for future reference - most women don't need advice from most men on how do deal with creepy dudes, seeing as how we are unfortunately in the position of having more experience with this issue. And Monday morning quaterbacking is even more infuriating when it's coming from someone who's never held a football.

And yet nary a sister in arms has suggested she file a report with the police.
One does not, and should not wait until they have been physically assaulted to file a report. The man is harassing Broomstick this needs to be reported.

[Hbns]

Originally Posted by Jragon

Hell, there's no guarantee calling the police is even the right thing to do, he hadn't done much other than skeeve her out, the chances of him getting off without being arrested are relatively high. They could remove him from the shop, but he knows where she works, there's a non-trivial chance that will just tip him to the breaking point of "full on stalking, rape her because she deserved it."

That is about the stupidest post I have seen all day.

You don't report the creep only if you think he can be arrested. You report the creep to establish a paper trail and a history of harassment with this person. The sooner that is established the more quickly and seriously the police will respond to further harassment or stalking behavior.

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by mister nyx

But, I mean, obviously you didn't think that proved she'd suffered enough to complain.

Well, if thats what you've gotten from what I've said about what she's posted your reading comprehension sucks donkey balls.

[mister nyx]

Originally Posted by billfish678

Well, if thats what you've gotten from what I've said about what she's posted your reading comprehension sucks donkey balls.

So, uh, you're agreeing with me that post #1 in this thread gave her absolute right to complain and that subsequent complaints about it were off-base, given how valid her argument was?

Or are you stupid, and you're trying to bluff? It's one or the other, there's not actual grey area here.

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by mister nyx

So, uh, you're agreeing with me that post #1 in this thread gave her absolute right to complain and that subsequent complaints about it were off-base, given how valid her argument was?
.

What the fuck does that even mean? You're gonna have to reword that baby before I can respond.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Steophan

What happened to Broomstick is a regrettably common situation, with a clearly defined way to handle it. That she, for whatever reason, chose not to do that, but instead took the guys number and continued to talk to him, will have a lot to do with why he didn't fuck off. Had she, instead of doing that, got her manager and a security guard, I doubt he would have been back asking why she didn't call...

No you jackass, I DID NOT TAKE HIS NUMBER. He put it on the counter. I did NOT continue to talk to him, I ordered him out of the store. The manager, in case you missed it was in another fucking county. After he put that goddamned piece of paper on the counter I ordered him out of the store and he left. He protested, but he left.

In other words, I did exactly what you say I didn't.

When he came back the next day I did NOT engage him in conversation, I once again ordered him out of the shop. Again, he protested but left.

If he hadn't left when ordered to do so I would have called security, of course, but since he left under his own power doing so would have been an over-reaction.

But hey, don't let the facts interfere with your fantasy or the jollies you get in deliberately misinterpreting someone else's statements. so you can get your rocks off blaming a women for the harassment she suffered.

[mister nyx]

Originally Posted by Steophan

No, I'm quite capable of empathy. I'm also quite capable of seeing how her behaviour here, calling what he did a threat, and him a potential rapist, trivialises the suffering of people who have been victims of these, and also reduces the likelihood of people who complain about genuine threats being taken seriously, due to the "crying wolf" effect.

I'm also quite capable of being fucking furious about it, because that trivialising is part of what has cause the suffering of people I care about.

It's really fucking rich of you to act self-righteous at this point, after post after post after post of you attacking the OP for not accepting grossly unacceptable sexual aggression the way you want her to. Yeah, let's all pretend your interest here is in defending sexual assault victims.

[OtakuLoki]

Originally Posted by Hbns

That is about the stupidest post I have seen all day.

You don't report the creep only if you think he can be arrested. You report the creep to establish a paper trail and a history of harassment with this person. The sooner that is established the more quickly and seriously the police will respond to further harassment or stalking behavior.

You're the idiot. Often enough such a paper trail only exists to highlight at a murder trial, that the system let down another person who trusted that such reports would do something. Sure and they're damned useful at murder trials to point towards aggravating circumstances to lead to harsher sentences than would have been handed down otherwise.

But that sort of thing is damned cold comfort for the victim.

If your imagination isn't totally ossified, just imagine how some of the asshole posters here would respond to a complaint if they were the investigating officer given the circumstances? Ridicule is the mildest response I would expect from such an officer. Harassment and charges for wasting the officer's time have been known to happen.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any memory of what the officer called to the scene of the Ben Roethlisberger incident behaved like? I'll give you a hint - he started right off blaming the woman for wearing clothes that asked for it.

That shit happens. Reporting harassment (or worse) is a crap shoot - there's no way to know ahead of time what sort of reception such a complaint will get. If you don't believe that you're fucking brain dead.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Hbns

And yet nary a sister in arms has suggested she file a report with the police.

Actually, that has been suggested several times - go back and re-read the thread.

One does not, and should not wait until they have been physically assaulted to file a report. The man is harassing Broomstick this needs to be reported.

And what law, exactly, did he break?

He asked that I fuck him. That isn't, believe or not, illegal. It might be skeevy as all hell, but it's not illegal.

Filing a police report on this I would expect exactly the reaction I'm getting from [b]Steophan[/i] - oh, you silly, over-reacting stupid woman, he's just awkward and trying to be friendly. Cops want to see evidence of wrong doing. Being skeevy isn't illegal.

Now, refusing to leave when asked, that might be grounds for security or police, but apparently he's savvy enough to avoid that little faux pas. That doesn't mean he's any less skeevy, or any less harmless.

Now, if he develops a pattern of this sort of shit, yes, that might work for showing he's a potential problem, but two visits don't make a stalker. Perhaps I've been assertive enough he'll seek easier prey. I certainly hope so. If he comes back again, yes, I will document it and take whatever further steps are necessary.

[mister nyx]

Originally Posted by billfish678

What the fuck does that even mean? You're gonna have to reword that baby before I can respond.

So let's see: what she described in her OP was enough to show how badly she'd been treated. You nonetheless are complaining at her. You can't come up with any reason to complain, but you're complaining anyway.

I think that's an adequate summary. And I think that's an adequate reason to assume any future posts of yours will be just as worthless as their predecessors.

[Hbns]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

That shit happens. Reporting harassment (or worse) is a crap shoot - there's no way to know ahead of time what sort of reception such a complaint will get. If you don't believe that you're fucking brain dead.

Well if the choice is rape, assault, or officer dickwad. I'll deal with officer dickwad. I can't believe you are going to sit there and suggest the best fucking response to continuing unwanted sexual advances is to just say "please go away".

Because oh my fucking god the guy I am worried might rape me, might rape me if I report him. Jesus christ it doesn't take an diploma to see how senseless that approach is.

[Hbns]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

Actually, that has been suggested several times - go back and re-read the thread.

Yep I know, I was one of them. Maybe you missed that through the red mist.

And what law, exactly, did he break?

He asked that I fuck him. That isn't, believe or not, illegal. It might be skeevy as all hell, but it's not illegal.

Filing a police report on this I would expect exactly the reaction I'm getting from [b]Steophan[/i] - oh, you silly, over-reacting stupid woman, he's just awkward and trying to be friendly. Cops want to see evidence of wrong doing. Being skeevy isn't illegal.

So the guy freaks you out so bad... and yet... nope, mister policeman might be a potential rapist too so I better just keep mum and maybe it will all go away? And if he comes back again, in the eyes of the cops it'll be the first incident and they still may not take it very seriously.

File a report. Yeah, some cop with zero empathy will think you are wasting his time, but they'll take the report if you insist. But hey, maybe the skeeve will never come back again.

[DianaG]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

Reporting harassment (or worse) is a crap shoot - there's no way to know ahead of time what sort of reception such a complaint will get. If you don't believe that you're fucking brain dead.

Sure it is. That doesn't mean that you don't do it. That's what cops are there for, and if they're dicks about it, call them on that shit.

Seriously, what should she do? Not what should she feel (which is, of course, whatever she feels), but what should she do?

I'd just like to submit the possibility that the OP is overreacting a bit (or at least venting here in a way that indicates such, which may not be the same thing) AND that it's not unreasonable to react that way. Both are entirely possible, even simultaneously.

She doesn't know anything about this guy except how he's behaved in front of her. The way he's behaved in front of her is utterly unacceptable. That doesn't necessarily indicate that he's plotting to hide in her backseat and The Room her.

Afraid is no way to go through life but prepared is good, and no one is powerless. Take reasonable precautions to protect yourself (and I'm not talking anything elaborate here, I'm talking pepper spray and SING) and then trust your instincts. Better to offend someone who already creeps you the fuck out than to err on the side of politeness. Without commenting on the OP's behavior, I do think that more women need to truly accept the idea that it's okay to say, LOUDLY "I'm not interested, go away and don't bother me again. Ever." Do NOT equivocate about this shit.

[Dave Hartwick]

Stop blaming the victim, you guys. Don't tell her she could have possibly did something differently because that's what victim-blamers do.

I just checked and sexual harassment is still bad,

Dave

[mister nyx]

Originally Posted by Dave Hartwick

Stop blaming the victim, you guys. Don't tell her she could have possibly did something differently because that's what victim-blamers do.

I just checked and sexual harassment is still bad,

Dave

Yes, you made it clear already, back on page 1 if memory serves, that you're convinced she's making it all up. Thanks, your opinion has been taken into account.

[Una Persson]

OK.

In my experience, many highly uncomfortable, risky, dangerous, and even potentially deadly situations do not sound such when described to third parties ex post facto. If you're not there, not in the victim's shoes, not seeing all the body language cues, not faced with the physical presence, not there to experience the aloneness of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, then it's very difficult sometimes to understand exactly why a situation can be really bad, yet perhaps not sound that way. I personally have been in situations where I was scared to the bone by someone and yet I know when I described it later, I was met with a chorus of "what's the big deal?" For all the lead-up to when I was raped, if I had described the sequence of events right up to maybe 60 seconds before, I'm sure it would have been more of "what's the big deal?" Yet because I was there, I knew I was in trouble the whole time along.

I believe Broomstick for that reason, and for the reason that as long as I've known her, including reading things she's not made broadly public, she's always been honest and forthright. There is no reason to doubt her honesty, nor is there compelling evidence to doubt her experience.

Some few of you are disappointing me; I know you are much better people than you're acting. It might seem like cheap laughs to pick on mistakes in posts or attitude or whatever, but try to think about how you might describe something that happened to you if you were truly scared and/or angry about it. I'm not going to defend nor castigate any specific post or poster (setting aside the fact I'm prohibited from Pitting people, and even from responding to threads where I'm being Pitted), just talking to the audience.

[RedFury]

Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot

For much of recorded human history the answer is no, men and women lived separate lives and mating was arranged.

Courtesan

Before that, lack of vocabulary. Afterward, hypocrisy. To this day.

[2square4u]

Originally Posted by Myrnalene

What's almost worse is self - identified "good guys" who would know better than to actually do this shit, but who never fail to tell women they are overreacting when someone else does it.

Well, that was clarifying. Now, what's your opinion on self-identified "good guys" who would know better than to actually do this shit, and who would applaud the OP if she kneed the creep in the balls?

[sandra_nz]

Originally Posted by even sven

Pious and boring as it is, I'm sick of the SDMB creep apologist squad. There have been multiple threads where a woman has recounted a situation where she feels sexually uncomfortable or threatened, and there is always a chorus of people trying to turn that problem on her- either she didn't react right (the toned down version of "If you were raped, why didn't you fight harder?"), or that she is overreacting ("You had to shower three times???") or that she must have somehow invited it or at least had some way to prevent it ("Why didn't you get your manager?")

I'll assume that last question is directed at me. And that's not what I said. What I said was:

Ew ew ew. Coming back the next day to berate you for not calling him is definitely creepy.

What was your manager doing whilst all this was going on?

because in the OP, she said:

This rather extroverted "gentleman" came by to get his sandals fixed. They were in terrible shape and the manager wanted to just toss them but he was persistent and I said I'd give it a try. So, I fixed his shoes.

which indicated to me that the manager may have been present during the original harassment. I did not say "Why didn't you get your manager?" which is a completely different thing.

I was asking for more information because, in my mind, any halfway decent human being would assist when they saw someone being harassed in this way. I was in no way suggesting that she had some way of preventing what happened to her, in fact I was extremely willing to offer my sympathy up until she responded so horribly to me.

[Jragon]

Originally Posted by Hbns

That is about the stupidest post I have seen all day.

You don't report the creep only if you think he can be arrested. You report the creep to establish a paper trail and a history of harassment with this person. The sooner that is established the more quickly and seriously the police will respond to further harassment or stalking behavior.

Maybe I'm just colored by my personal experience, my friend was stalked and verbally sexually harassed. I advised calling the police. She did, multiple times. No, she didn't get raped (luckily), but it sure as hell didn't make him quit and mostly just made him mad at her. He not once got more than a "now son, don'tcha go near her again, y'hear? Or there's gonna be trouble!" And then trouble never came for him. I'm pretty sure the only reason he quit (because apparently "being 100% dyke"* isn't a reason for a guy to stop hitting on someone) was because he graduated. Sure, the paper trail may have, theoretically, made a rape or murder trial easier, but big whoop.

I do want to mention that I never said that calling the cops was wrong, I simply said it's not guaranteed to do anything, and could make it worse. In other words, it's a crapshoot. I would agree that overall calling the cops is probably the computer-generated "correct" solution (reward is higher than risk), I was merely saying that it's not a simple "better/worse" binary, there's probability and ambiguity involved that you can't resolve by simply saying "rationally this is the only logical choice." In other words, should Broomstick have called the cops? Maaaybe, bordering on probably. But I don't think it's as obvious or clear cut a decision as you make it out to be.

* Her words, not mine

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Hbns

So the guy freaks you out so bad... and yet... nope, mister policeman might be a potential rapist too so I better just keep mum and maybe it will all go away?

Who said the cop is a potential rapist? I don't think the cop is a potential rapist, I just don't think he's likely to take the matter seriously. For that matter, it's not guaranteed a woman cop would take it seriously.

And if he comes back again, in the eyes of the cops it'll be the first incident and they still may not take it very seriously.

Nope, it's also a crapshoot whether they'd ask about how much/often he's been in the shop before, whether or not it had happened before, etc.

Originally Posted by DianaG

Afraid is no way to go through life but prepared is good, and no one is powerless. Take reasonable precautions to protect yourself (and I'm not talking anything elaborate here, I'm talking pepper spray and SING) and then trust your instincts.

The amusing thing about your "nothing elaborate" statement is that two people in real life have offered to lend me a gun. Personally, I think both those characters are a little too gun happy - on the other hand, both have been attacked themselves at work (and they're both men - not potential rape but armed robbery in their case).

Hmm... wonder if the reason those two men so readily believed me is because they had been attacked at work?

Originally Posted by sandra_nz

which indicated to me that the manager may have been present during the original harassment. I did not say "Why didn't you get your manager?" which is a completely different thing.

Oh - sorry, now I see the confusion. His sandal-fixing took a couple days, repairing the soles required the cement we used to cure up for 48 hours. The manager saw the sandals sitting on the shelf during that time period and declared them unrepairable because the aesthetic result would be crap. The customer had been insistent that we try anyway and that he didn't care about the look, just that he would get functional sandals back. So the manager had seen the sandals the day before, but was not present during the confrontation.

Originally Posted by Jragon

I'm pretty sure the only reason he quit (because apparently "being 100% dyke"* isn't a reason for a guy to stop hitting on someone) was because he graduated.

For some men, her being a dyke is an incentive to harass her - see corrective rape. That's an extreme example, but some men view lesbians as a challenge, or maybe think they're so manly even the dykes find them desirable.

Sure, the paper trail may have, theoretically, made a rape or murder trial easier, but big whoop.

Maybe that's why "call the cops" isn't my first go-to. I'm not interested in catching a rapist after he rapes me, I'm interested in not being raped. Cops aren't going to prevent that because odds are they won't be there at that moment. The times in the past someone tried to rape me what stopped it was ME - especially Mr. Drag-Into-the-Bushes. But while I can, unquestionably, fight back and I'm strong for a woman my size and age, I'm three times older now than when I last fought off a man intent that sort of assault and I know I'm not as strong and fast as I used to be. I also don't particularly want to engage in violence even if I'm capable of it and pretty decent at it. I know some people don't understand that very well.

Which is not to say Mr. Creeper is a rapist - it's entirely possible he wouldn't rape a woman, he's just skeevy and so persistent as to be threatening. Then again, maybe he would. That's part of the problem, I just don't know. He DID leave when told to do so, but he also came back.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by even sven

What do you guys think rapists do? Grow horns and say "Ok, so here is the deal. I am going to sexually assault you"?

Jesus Christ, now even sven is being sexually harassed by straw men. Go get your pitchforks.

[Gyrate]

I just wanted to compliment everyone on how well this thread is going.

[Myrnalene]

Originally Posted by 2square4u

Well, that was clarifying. Now, what's your opinion on self-identified "good guys" who would know better than to actually do this shit, and who would applaud the OP if she kneed the creep in the balls?

I'm......not sure why you ask that. I wouldn't have an opinion either way, as I would consider that a pretty normal (and non-asshole) response. Are you looking for your "meets minimum standards of decency" cookie?

Originally Posted by Darth Panda

Jesus Christ, now even sven is being sexually harassed by straw men. Go get your pitchforks.

I really don't think some of you are even actually reading and responding to the whole conversation, you're looking for posts by your favorite snark targets to fap about.

No, what even sven is doing is trying to educate the "he wasn't so bad, nothing really happened" contingent. A lot of people are accusing Broomstick of conflating what happened to her with rape (which she didn't do), but as has been pointed out by people in this very thread who have been sexually assaulted, this kind of behavior is often how starts and it can escalate very quickly. That isn't hysteria, it's not crazy women making shit up, it is reality.